Houserule Search: Toning down casters

[Necrosnoop110]

tl;dr looking for houserule to remove top-end spells but keep the 1-20 level scheme as intact as possible

So basically both I (DM) and my PCs are searching for a houserule to town down the casters without losing the 1-20 level-ing system or toning down the caster to the point that they are not worth playing. We don't like the idea of an e6 equivalent because it loses the 1-20 level advancement (especically for the martial class abilities) and we don't have a problem with super strong martial characters we just want to cut off the top end of the casters.

My first off the cuff idea was to cap all spells known at 5th level. Allow for class features and advancement as per normal all the way up to 20th but classes can only learn spells up to 5th level. Spell slots increase as normal, so you can up cast lower level spells. And you can gain class features as normal. The few class features like a Warlock's Mystic Arcanum that grant spells known higher than 5th would need to be swapped out for something else.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Unavenger]

Get ready for everyone to multiclass out after 10th.

If you wanted a better rule that was still simple, you could halve everyone's spellcasting progression after they reach level 10, giving them 6ths at 12, 7ths at 16, and 8ths as their capstone. On the other hand, this would still cause problems (for example, 11th, 13th, 15th and 17th would now be dead levels for wizards, although you could shunt all the features on the previous levels onto those levels I suppose).

[Necrosnoop110]

Get ready for everyone to multiclass out after 10th.

If you wanted a better rule that was still simple, you could halve everyone's spellcasting progression after they reach level 10, giving them 6ths at 12, 7ths at 16, and 8ths as their capstone. On the other hand, this would still cause problems (for example, 11th, 13th, 15th and 17th would now be dead levels for wizards, although you could shunt all the features on the previous levels onto those levels I suppose).

Thanks for the feedback. Multiclassing has always been a staple at my table so that wouldn't cause a problem for my group.

[Steampunkette]

So... there's a couple really good ways to do this.

Pathfinder 2e introduced a different action-economy, wherein every character gets 3 actions per turn and attacks, movement, and stuff are all 100% interchangeable. You wanna move 3 times in a round, feel free. Make 3 melee attacks? Go for it (though you get penalties on the second and third). You wanna cast a spell? Cool beans! Each component takes an action.

VSM? Takes all your actions in a turn to cast it. V/S? Just two. Makes Silent Spell particularly powerful since it takes away an action to cast a spell, giving you more time to do other things.

You could adapt that to D&D by making Verbal components take a bonus action while Somatic Components take an action. And then have material components not take an action outside of readying them, since you use the material in the somatic.

Alternatively, you could have spells cast at their "Natural" Level (Fireball is always cast as a 3rd level spell) unless you spent your Bonus Action to increase the spell's level.

And, option 3: Remove a bunch of damaging spells from your game, entirely. No more fireballs and lightning bolts, magic is more utility-focused and it's only through cantrips and specific spells that damage is directly dealt.

[gerryq]

Could you replace high level spells with weaker versions?

[Necrosnoop110]

Could you replace high level spells with weaker versions?
Wouldn't that require a lot of work? Was looking for something that didn't require rewrites.

[MoiMagnus]

Thanks for the feedback. Multiclassing has always been a staple at my table so that wouldn't cause a problem for my group.

Then the easiest would be to require multiclassing for full casters. Trying to find something to give in exchange of high level spells has a high proba of just being a trap option with players regretting their choice.

E.g, You could just say "wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid/cleric are capped at level 14" (wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid get their final subclass effect at level 14), with an additional restriction saying that "you cannot progress above level 10 of wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid/cleric before having reached character level 16".
[You could go with something softer by allowing to spread take levels 11-12 earlier, or something stricter by capping at 10 the full spellcaster classes]

(Oh, and don't forget to allow the Artificer class from Eberon, or the version from the upcoming Tasha book, otherwise the Wizard might feel a little restricted in his multiclassing options)

[Necrosnoop110]

Then the easiest would be to require multiclassing for full casters. Trying to find something to give in exchange of high level spells has a high proba of just being a trap option with players regretting their choice.

E.g, You could just say "wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid/cleric are capped at level 14" (wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid get their final subclass effect at level 14), with an additional restriction saying that "you cannot progress above level 10 of wizard/warlock/sorcerer/druid/cleric before having reached character level 16".
[You could go with something softer by allowing to spread take levels 11-12 earlier, or something stricter by capping at 10 the full spellcaster classes]

(Oh, and don't forget to allow the Artificer class from Eberon, or the version from the upcoming Tasha book, otherwise the Wizard might feel a little restricted in his multiclassing options)
Yeah, I like the level cap idea. Great idea. Thanks. Don't know why I didn't think of that, bringing it back old school.

[GalacticAxekick]

You could make spellcasting slower.

When you use your action to cast a spell, nothing happens until the start of your next turn. You begin performing the components, which tells everyone what spell you're about to cast, but not your target/the area.

This means that when an enemy casts a spell, players will have the chance to take cover or otherwise thwart its effects.

And when a player casts a spell, enemies do the same. And while spellcaster wont be able to prevent this, martial characters will!

At higher levels, spell casters might learn to cast their lowest level spells instantaneously.

[olskool]

My own Houserule is that all Spell Casting requires an Arcana Proficiency check for the spell to be cast. The DC is 10 + Spell Level (treating Cantrips as 0 Level) and Arcana Proficiency and Characteristic bonuses do apply the check (which is just a normal Proficiency check). You can also modify the DC based on the circumstances when the spell is cast. Under missile attack? The DC starts at 15 + Spell Level. Under direct melee attack? The DC starts at 20 + Spell Level. Spell SLOTS are only expended on a successful casting (meaning that a caster can make multiple attempts at casting a spell). Want to go "HARDCORE?" ANY ATTEMPT to cast a spell expends a slot (I find this a little too harsh on casters myself)!

This does a good job of adding in the chance of spell failure in IF you don't mind rolling the extra D20 for the casting check.

[Morphic tide]

The main thing, to me, is that the primary problem spellcasters bring to game balance is the staggering, overwhelming amount of variety they get. They have a huge amount of things they do that the Martials are fully incapable of, and the spellcasters get to do large selections of it simultaneously while Martials are more or less stuck doing just one, maybe two if you're a very skilled Fighter builder. So the direction taken needs to be about forcing spellcasters to have more focused selections of spells they grab, so they're doing fewer things.

[clash]

The main thing, to me, is that the primary problem spellcasters bring to game balance is the staggering, overwhelming amount of variety they get. They have a huge amount of things they do that the Martials are fully incapable of, and the spellcasters get to do large selections of it simultaneously while Martials are more or less stuck doing just one, maybe two if you're a very skilled Fighter builder. So the direction taken needs to be about forcing spellcasters to have more focused selections of spells they grab, so they're doing fewer things.

Radical idea but what if we limited each spellcaster to 2 schools of magic similiar to EK and AT allowing spells gained at specific levels to deviate so they could have select spells they want. It could be subclass based for wizard, sorcerer, and cleric, warlock, and even druid and bard but they already have a pretty thematic list.

Classes like wizard who dont gain there subclass until level 2, would have their pick of first level spells to represent their universal study before specializing.

Dragon sorcerer could be limited to Evocation and Conjuration for example.

[Morphic tide]

Radical idea but what if we limited each spellcaster to 2 schools of magic similiar to EK and AT allowing spells gained at specific levels to deviate so they could have select spells they want. It could be subclass based for wizard, sorcerer, and cleric, warlock, and even druid and bard but they already have a pretty thematic list.

Classes like wizard who dont gain there subclass until level 2, would have their pick of first level spells to represent their universal study before specializing.

Dragon sorcerer could be limited to Evocation and Conjuration for example.

I'd personally go with one primary school with regular access, two secondary schools at the Ranger and Paladin spell level limit for learning them, then the rest at the subclass rate of ~1/3rd full caster. This isn't perfect because the schools aren't quite so mechanically specific, but is a good sight better than trying to force in any kind of roll-for-spells system in 5e, because Bounded Accuracy is hell for anything like that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd personally go with one primary school with regular access, two secondary schools at the Ranger and Paladin spell level limit for learning them, then the rest at the subclass rate of ~1/3rd full caster. This isn't perfect because the schools aren't quite so mechanically specific, but is a good sight better than trying to force in any kind of roll-for-spells system in 5e, because Bounded Accuracy is hell for anything like that.

I had an elaborate homebrew system for doing (roughly) that, except that it didn't work based on the 8 schools. Because those are in no way balanced or designed for such limiting purposes for general-purpose spell-casting. Picking the wrong one would be roughly fatal, while picking the right one would give you 90% of the present power.

My idea was to slice and dice even more closely by theme across all spell lists. Producing lots of overlapping themed lists. Each class would have access to a selection of them (clerics get the Healer theme for free, for example, while wizards can't get the Healer theme), but then would generally pick one primary theme, with one or more secondary themes chosen by the subclass (ie Domains, Oaths, and Sorcerous Origins mostly) or from a separate pool.

Themes were things like:
* Conjurer
* Pyromancer
* Witch
* Healer
* Holy Warrior

You'd always have access to learn spells from your primary theme, secondary themes would be gated (at specific levels or whatever) and anyone but wizards couldn't learn anything from other themes (wizards could scribe scrolls/spellbooks from anything that wasn't on their prohibited list, but could only learn their free spells from their Primary list). Effectively, your primary + secondary themes would be your spell list. Every caster would have a different list in practice.

Pity it never got fully tested.

[Yakk]

First, drop multiclassing. Getting that balanced as well is a pain.

And the melee character "back 10" is so bad that most characters end up wanting to MC anyhow.

By dropping MCing, you level the playing field a bit.

Second, remove all 6th level or higher spells. It might be possible to find scrolls of these spells, but each such scroll is an artifact of power and cannot be duplicated.

Then add this feature:

Advanced Spellcraft:
You gain access to advanced spellslots at level 11. All of these require a casting ability check; you are considered proficient in it.

On failure, your spell fails. It could fizzle, target the wrong creatures, or warp in a way determined by the DM. This isn't a wild magic surge, it will be related to the original effect.

Concentration:
You can cast a concentration-requiring spell at 5 levels higher for no concentration.

DC is 5 times the level of the concentration-removed spells you will have up after you cast the spell, in case you have more than 1.

Power:
"At higher levels" clauses count level 6 slots as 8, level 7 as 12, level 8 as 16 and level 9 as 20.

DC 10 plus 1/2 the effective slot level.

Harmony:
You can cast two spells at once. The slots used for each spell cannot be more than level 5. If they sum to 4, you can use a 6th level slot. If they sum to 6, a 7th level slot. If they sum to 8, an 8th level slot, and a 9th level slot can cast two spells at 5th level.

DC is 10 plus the combined slot levels.

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Warlocks "major arcanum" uses can be used as spell slots for the above purposes.

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DCs to do this cap at 20 with you burn a 9th level slot, but the 9th level effects are pretty awesome (2 5th level spells, a 25d6 fireball, a 10d8 shadow blade, a concentration-free greater invisibility, etc).

They are, however, no candle to actual 9th level spells. Meteor Swarm is 40d6 over 20,000 square feet; 25d6 fireball over 1200 square feet is no meteor swarm.

[ARTHAN]

Do you wish to tone down the casters because of campaign reasons or because they are too strong in comparison with martial classes? What about buffing martial classes instead?

[notXanathar]

Pathfinder 2e introduced a different action-economy, wherein every character gets 3 actions per turn and attacks, movement, and stuff are all 100% interchangeable. You wanna move 3 times in a round, feel free. Make 3 melee attacks? Go for it (though you get penalties on the second and third). You wanna cast a spell? Cool beans! Each component takes an action.

VSM? Takes all your actions in a turn to cast it. V/S? Just two. Makes Silent Spell particularly powerful since it takes away an action to cast a spell, giving you more time to do other things.

You could adapt that to D&D by making Verbal components take a bonus action while Somatic Components take an action. And then have material components not take an action outside of readying them, since you use the material in the somatic.

The rule that the number of actions was equal to that of the components was a rule in the playtest, but has been dropped. It is notable that to use silent spell in this way would utterly muck up game balance, as the only effect that is meant to do so (the quicken spell feat) is 6 levels higher as a feat and can be used only once a day. That said, the action economy in pathfinder second is amazing, and I would love to adapt 5e to it.

[Necrosnoop110]

Thoughts on : Zman's 5e Tweaks: E10 Variant V1.0 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?521922-Zman-s-5e-Tweaks-E10-Variant-V1-0)?