Dread necromancer - Modification for Necromancy-heavy Setting

[GrayDeath]

As the title says, my Co-DM and I are looking at playing the second continent of our shared Setting.

It is so far not Meachnically finished, but fluffwise about 95% done.

Now preface: Our World does not have "Wizards" or other "choose freely whatever they want to cast" Spellcasters.

Wizards are members of one of 4 Philosophies, which at most allow them to cast from 4 Different Schools, while most specilize into only 2 (general Spells are outside of that, as is Abjuration as one cannot remove it from Arcane Casting).

This worked well so far, our more thematic Casters doing what they were intended to do, our Fixed List Sorcerers (following their Descent from their ancestors we have Draconic, Fae and Extraplanar Sorcerers)....

Divine Casters suffer from a similar limitation in that they only get to prepare 1 Spell of their free choice/Spell elvel, but isntead gain access to up to 7 Domains (and 3 slots) of their PAtron deities Domains.

However, our second Continent is (and has been) ruled by 3 competetive Civilizatrions that are using Undeath/ruled by Undead/etc.

As so far the only 2 Classes we have in Setting that are "Undeath and+" are the Dread necromancer (as we run PF main with higher Skillpts, otherwise unchanged) and my own Class the Death Sage, we are now running into a problem of sorts.

Wizards are overall the rarest of casters, so while a handful of necromancy Specilists ruling one of the 3 is more or less a given, this leaves us with the problem of ahving too many too similar Casters on the 3 sides.

My goto Idea was to make the Dread Necromancer into 3-5 Different Classes, eacha dding a second Arcane School to pick a limited amount (say 10 to 12 over 20 levels) Spells from.

However, the Dread Necro is, especially in a,rger numbers and mid levels, extremely powerful if its a (or the) dominant Caster CLass in an Empire.

So I come to the Forum with the following questions:

1.: Assuming each Variant added a second School to pick Spells only via Advanced Learning and another 6 times but only up to second highest Level (so spread along these Lines: Levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 for the extras), would that be balanced enough, given the lack of "real unlimited Choice" Arcane Casters?

2a.: Assuming 1 is a yes, what else can you imagine to use to differentiate it further WITHOUT the hassle of building an effective extra Archetype/Class?
Since the time frame prohibits us from redesigning/buo.ding too much, as we intend for our game group toc ross to the new continent within the enxt 2 sessions (at most 6 weeks).

2B: assuming 1 is a no, why is this so? Would simply allowing them to exchange one Spell of each Spell elvel in addition to the above or in exchange to the above fix the problem?

and lastly: 3: Do you have any other Ideas on how to pull this off without needing Free Choice Casters, handwaving or new classes?

Thank you all in advance!

[Falontani]

However, our second Continent is (and has been) ruled by 3 competetive Civilizatrions that are using Undeath/ruled by Undead/etc.

As so far the only 2 Classes we have in Setting that are "Undeath and+" are the Dread necromancer (as we run PF main with higher Skill points, otherwise unchanged) and my own Class the Death Sage, we are now running into a problem of sorts.

Wizards are overall the rarest of casters, so while a handful of necromancy Specialists ruling one of the 3 is more or less a given, this leaves us with the problem of having too many too similar Casters on the 3 sides.

My go to Idea was to make the Dread Necromancer into 3-5 Different Classes, each adding a second Arcane School to pick a limited amount (say 10 to 12 over 20 levels) Spells from.

However, the Dread Necro is, especially in larger numbers and mid levels, extremely powerful if its a (or the) dominant Caster Class in an Empire.

So I come to the Forum with the following questions:

1.: Assuming each Variant added a second School to pick Spells only via Advanced Learning and another 6 times but only up to second highest Level (so spread along these Lines: Levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 for the extras), would that be balanced enough, given the lack of "real unlimited Choice" Arcane Casters?

2a.: Assuming 1 is a yes, what else can you imagine to use to differentiate it further WITHOUT the hassle of building an effective extra Archetype/Class?
Since the time frame prohibits us from redesigning/building too much, as we intend for our game group toc ross to the new continent within the next 2 sessions (at most 6 weeks).

2B: assuming 1 is a no, why is this so? Would simply allowing them to exchange one Spell of each Spell level in addition to the above or in exchange to the above fix the problem?

and lastly: 3: Do you have any other Ideas on how to pull this off without needing Free Choice Casters, handwaving or new classes?

Thank you all in advance!

So let me get this straight first.

All of your current spellcasters are highly limited in what spell they are able to cast.
A) Clerics (or their type) effectively get up to 7 domains, 4 domain slots/level, but can only prepare a single spell outside of their domain slots. While that seems like a very interesting route, I definitely have questions.
B) Arcane spellcasters are limited to 4 schools of magic, and they specialize in two.
C) This is based more on pathfinder than 3.5, but has elements from 3.5
D) The continent is controlled mostly by necromancers.

So we need more types of necromancers. Simple enough.
1. I know that pathfinder has an 'incarnum' type system. I'm not very familiar with it, but a "necromancer" class with Incarnum, Necrocarnum, 3/4ths bab, and rebuke undead would be a straight-forward necromancer class.
2. Clerics are already going to be a great choice for a Necromancer type area.
3. Gravewalker archetype for Witch. (use the wizard/arcane rules on spell slots, perhaps limit them to 3 schools of magic rather than 4 to compensate for their hexes)
4. Take a Summoner. Add the Spirit Summoner Archetype. Drop Summoner Spellcasting and replace it with Spirit Shaman spellcasting (under the same rules as the normal divine spellcasters, give them fewer domains than a cleric). Make the Spirit Eidolon thing an incorporeal undead. Focus on incorp undead and necromentals.


as to your specific questions
1. That seems like a fair compromise
2a. Alter the level 8 Undead mastery ability to have the necromancer specialize in different types of undead. A dread necromancer that focuses on zombies should have much more powerful zombie esque creatures than a dread necromancer that focuses on skeletons, etc.
3. I hope the stuff above that I have said isn't quite 'new classes' too much. Other options definitely exist

[GrayDeath]

So let me get this straight first.

All of your current spellcasters are highly limited in what spell they are able to cast.
A) Clerics (or their type) effectively get up to 7 domains, 4 domain slots/level, but can only prepare a single spell outside of their domain slots. While that seems like a very interesting route, I definitely have questions.
B) Arcane spellcasters are limited to 4 schools of magic, and they specialize in two.
C) This is based more on pathfinder than 3.5, but has elements from 3.5
D) The continent is controlled mostly by necromancers.


A: Correct.
B: Wizards. Arcane Spellcasters with Fixed Lists can get more (for esample the Draconic Sorcerer has Spells from all Schools but Necromancy and Illusion). Its the "can choose what they get" that are more limited.
C+D: Correct.




So we need more types of necromancers. Simple enough.
1. I know that pathfinder has an 'incarnum' type system. I'm not very familiar with it, but a "necromancer" class with Incarnum, Necrocarnum, 3/4ths bab, and rebuke undead would be a straight-forward necromancer class.
2. Clerics are already going to be a great choice for a Necromancer type area.
3. Gravewalker archetype for Witch. (use the wizard/arcane rules on spell slots, perhaps limit them to 3 schools of magic rather than 4 to compensate for their hexes)
4. Take a Summoner. Add the Spirit Summoner Archetype. Drop Summoner Spellcasting and replace it with Spirit Shaman spellcasting (under the same rules as the normal divine spellcasters, give them fewer domains than a cleric). Make the Spirit Eidolon thing an incorporeal undead. Focus on incorp undead and necromentals.


1.: None of us have the book, and we are not using them on our World, hence they do not exist.
That might change later, but it cannot apply to something that has been the case for at least 250years (youngest of the Undead realms).

2.: Yes, but only those of specific Gods, and due to them almost exclusively ahving Domains as Spellcasting, tehy suffer from the same Problem.
Additionally, which yu cant know, there is only one "real" God of Undeath, and his Clerics are supposed not to play a defining Role in ruling/steering/Fighting the Realms unless someone would start to act against most/all undead.

3.: Witchs exist, so that is a good Suggestion. Noted and thanks.

4.: We tend to avoid any form of Summoner like the plague, which, again, caused summoners not to exist in the setting.

To make this clear for any further answers:

Unless the class is mentioned/is a Core Class, you should assume it does not exist in the Sertting.

Complete List of Arcane Casters (9th level or similar Spellcvasting) so Far (in decreasing numbers): Sorcerers, Dread necromancers, Death Sages, Magus, Wizards, Witches.



as to your specific questions
1. That seems like a fair compromise
2a. Alter the level 8 Undead mastery ability to have the necromancer specialize in different types of undead. A dread necromancer that focuses on zombies should have much more powerful zombie esque creatures than a dread necromancer that focuses on skeletons, etc.
3. I hope the stuff above that I have said isn't quite 'new classes' too much. Other options definitely exist

Hmm, thats a good Idea.
Let some get better Monions, let others get even more, and a third version be able to maybe see through theirs like the Graveborn Witch.

Thank you, that is a helpful suggestion indeed!

I am as of now likely going to do this:

5 Versions of Dread Necro.

Corruption Dread Necro: Gains number Bonuses stated at level 8 only on Undead that can propagate, ergo Ghouls, Ghasts and Vampires, no normal Dread necro level 8 Number boost, but the stats and dc`s for these Minions are higher.
Additional School: Illusion. As his are the msot natural infiltrators.

Court/Noble Dread Necro: His Udnead remain nice looking, and he can create "prettier" Udnead for any type by simply applying some limited ressource (thinking of a Spell/Day one level lower).
Additional School: Enchantment.

Death Knight Dread necromancer: Can only create intelligent Undead of the Knight/Soldier/Similar type and their mounts (or the usual mindless rabble), but those are stronger, tougher and more intelligent than normal and even outside his control totally loyal. (kind of the Blood Knights from Warhammer, the ones that actually keep to the fluff).
Doesnt get an additional School or more spells than with Advanced LEarning, but instead gets D8, medium BAB, High Fort Save and use of medium Armor without ASF.

Mass Dread necro: uses regular maximized Numbers+33%, everything else normal.
Additional School: Divination (with so many minions, you need to be able to coordinate)

Spirit Summoner Necromancer: Focussing almost exclusively on short term/Specific pale/Use but high power undead ala Spirits of various forms.
All Spirits and similar Creatures they create/Summon gain Bonuses depending on their Level.
As adverse effect, they only gain a control pool for physical undead equal to an unmodified Aniamte Dead Caster.
Additional School: Conjuration (Cause obvious, thanks noob ^^).

Zombie King DN: Cannot create Skeletons except from rabble (ergo 4 or less HD). All Zombies he creates are at +1/4th living Creature Strength and +10ft Movement Speed.
He can create Zombies with +50% HD via single Animate Dead castings, and from level 12 onwards can create Zombie Fusions (combines up to 7 different Creatures for multiple attacks/limbs/etc) from Zombies he created himself, up to a total HD limit of the single Zombie equal to 3*Dread Necromancer level+2*Cha Mod+5.
Additional School: transmutation (cause he fiddles with them a lot?^^)



Any obvious flaws?

[Falontani]

I am not seeing any immediate flaws popping out at me.

[noob]

A: Correct.
B: Wizards. Arcane Spellcasters with Fixed Lists can get more (for esample the Draconic Sorcerer has Spells from all Schools but Necromancy and Illusion). Its the "can choose what they get" that are more limited.
C+D: Correct.



1.: None of us have the book, and we are not using them on our World, hence they do not exist.
That might change later, but it cannot apply to something that has been the case for at least 250years (youngest of the Undead realms).

2.: Yes, but only those of specific Gods, and due to them almost exclusively ahving Domains as Spellcasting, tehy suffer from the same Problem.
Additionally, which yu cant know, there is only one "real" God of Undeath, and his Clerics are supposed not to play a defining Role in ruling/steering/Fighting the Realms unless someone would start to act against most/all undead.

3.: Witchs exist, so that is a good Suggestion. Noted and thanks.

4.: We tend to avoid any form of Summoner like the plague, which, again, caused summoners not to exist in the setting.

To make this clear for any further answers:

Unless the class is mentioned/is a Core Class, you should assume it does not exist in the Sertting.

Complete List of Arcane Casters (9th level or similar Spellcvasting) so Far (in decreasing numbers): Sorcerers, Dread necromancers, Death Sages, Magus, Wizards, Witches.



Hmm, thats a good Idea.
Let some get better Monions, let others get even more, and a third version be able to maybe see through theirs like the Graveborn Witch.

Thank you, that is a helpful suggestion indeed!

I am as of now likely going to do this:

5 Versions of Dread Necro.

Mass Dread necro: uses regular maximized Numbers+33%, everything else normal.
Additional School: Divination (with so many minions, you need to be able to coordinate)

Corruption Dread Necro: Gains number Bonuses stated at level 8 only on Undead that can propagate, ergo Ghouls, Ghasts and Vampires, no normal Dread necro level 8 Number boost, but the stats and dc`s for these Minions are higher.
Additional School: Illusion. As his are the msot natural infiltrators.

Court/Noble Dread Necro: His Udnead remain nice looking, and he can create "prettier" Udnead for any type by simply applying some limited ressource (thinking of a Spell/Day one level lower).
Additional School: Enchantment.

Death Knight Dread necromancer: Can only create intelligent Undead of the Knight/Soldier/Similar type and their mounts (or the usual mindless rabble), but those are stronger, tougher and more intelligent than normal and even outside his control totally loyal. (kind of the Blood Knights from Warhammer, the ones that actually keep to the fluff).
Doesnt get an additional School or more spells than with Advanced LEarning, but instead gets D8, medium BAB, High Fort Save and use of medium Armor without ASF.

Zombie King DN: Cannot create Skeletons except from rabble (ergo 4 or less HD). All Zombies he creates are at +1/4th living Creature Strength and +10ft Movement Speed.
He can create Zombies with +50% HD via single Animate Dead castings, and from level 12 onwards can create Zombie Fusions (combines up to 7 different Creatures for multiple attacks/limbs/etc) from Zombies he created himself, up to a total HD limit of the single Zombie equal to 3*Dread Necromancer level+2*Cha Mod+5.
Additional School: transmutation (cause he fiddles with them a lot?^^)

Any obvious flaws?

I think that mass dread necromancer due to its secondary school is tempting for player characters (information can be hard to get and some spells like prying eyes can really reduce the odds you get surprised down on the line) but having high amounts of undead means only players with some skill in managing masses can actually get fights done fast.
So something like making your undead become a swarm (that may diminish in efficiency as it takes hits) when close enough to each other would help the player manage them faster.

Zombie king seems good for a player to not have too many undeads thanks to the zombie fusion although zombies are not the highest quality undead(yes your flying zombie will reduce stuff to paste but only with charges, move or simple actions).
As a plus transmutation contains a lot of cool stuff like disintegrate (digs a hole so fast) or shrink item.

Corruption Dread Necro uses good types of undead and have their special abilities boosted + their illusion gives some useful spells for fitting outside of necromancy heavy kingdoms so I think they would be among the most playable necromancers if there was no spawn explosion problems.

Court/Noble Dread Necro: seems less player oriented but usually the pretty undead are rather high quality(ex: vampires, necropolitans, that dead musical undead and the like) which fits what a players usually wants as their army(a low number of high quality minions to avoid crowding the battlefield)
Enchantment is one of the least useful school but it still got some good boosts to hand out to your living allies so they are not jealous.(rage, heroism and some more) and mind controlling someone gets them under your control without taking one of your undead control slots you could use for something else.

Death Knight Dread necromancer: you think you can get an army of skilled and exceptionally intelligent loyal knights until you realise you are messed up once you meet a more skilled necromancer that starts stealing your loyal knights due to the fact you do not have lateral abilities outside of your necromancy.
Your best hope is to get enough knights to overwhelm the control capacity of all the other necromancers and that is very much impossible due to how the other necromancers can kill their own controlled knights and take control of new knights that belonged to you.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, I thought the Deathknight one did have a lateral ensurance: His Minions are actually loyal (and given he uses higher quality stuff, shoud have good turn resistance), but you do raise a valid point.

I dont want any of the versions to be a nobrainer choice, and the other 4 seem to be achieving what I intend, going by your comment.

Any suggestions?

[noob]

Hmmm, I thought the Deathknight one did have a lateral ensurance: His Minions are actually loyal (and given he uses higher quality stuff, shoud have good turn resistance), but you do raise a valid point.

I dont want any of the versions to be a nobrainer choice, and the other 4 seem to be achieving what I intend, going by your comment.

Any suggestions?

I had one suggestion which was allowing the mass necromancer to make his low quality undead become a swarm of undead temporarily when they are clustered enough in order to not have to roll 20 bow attack rolls or move individually 20 skeletons with swords.

[GrayDeath]

Noted, and thinking about it.

[noob]

Noted, and thinking about it.


For the death knight you could make them able to bind themselves with a single loyal knight in order to make it gain immunity to turning so that they will have a cool minion to do their bidding even when their opponents uses masses of undead controlling.

By the way following the pattern you had there is two kinds of necromancer you did not approach:
Conjurer necromancer (that conjures the souls of the dead and stuff like that) which would be based on getting temporary undead and/or communing with the afterlife or the dead.(would have wide gaps in terms of variety)
Abjurer necromancer that is specialised in the protection of undead and from the undead(no clue what else to add to their theme so I understand why you did not make one).
I assumed that the knight necromancer was more or less filling the slot of "necromancy + evocation" but doing so in an unique approach.(else what would have been a necromancy + evocation necromancer? an elementalist necromancer that makes fiery skeletons and frozen zombies then undead electric werewolves then vampires with acidic blood then force pseudoliches that throw force bolts and makes force walls then banshees that scream hard enough to break ears? Now I figure out that I should probably make that class now that I described it and now I need a statblock for a prismatic boneyard)

[NigelWalmsley]

If you're building a Necromancy-heavy setting, I recommend borrowing heavily from the Tome of Necromancy (https://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248).

Necromancy + Evocation is your standard Uttercold Assault Necromancer. You take Lord of the Uttercold, make a bunch of skeleton minions, then provide fire support that your mooks are not only immune to, but actually healed by. There's a PrC for it in the aforementioned Tome of Necromancy, but the basic combo is 100% RAW. The Dread Necromancer just needs some blasting spells to make it work.

I know you've said no summoners, but the Conjuration + Necromancy Dread Necromancer is definitely a summoner. The Planar Binding line of spells lets you supplement your undead minions with fiendish ones, or get outsider corpses to make above-par mooks.

Honestly, I probably would try to divide things up by school too much. Instead, I'd look at what kinds of necromantic concepts you want to support, and build around those, regardless of whether it gets you a "Abjuration Dread Necromancer" or not. There are a lot of evocative necromancer concepts out there, and you're better off with a bottom-up approach than a top-down one. For example, there should definitely be people running around with spell-stitched mooks, but it's not clear what additional school of magic that would be associated with.

On another note, I think the basic thing you want to do for a necromancy-focused setting is figure out a way of generating large numbers of low-HD undead. RAW pushes Necromancers (Dread or otherwise) towards smaller numbers of more elite minions, but that's very much the opposite of what you'd expect flavor-wise.

[noob]

The prismatic boneyard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621531-Prismatic-boneyard) now unlives.
This is the proof why evoker necromancers should not focus on cold.

[GrayDeath]

For the death knight you could make them able to bind themselves with a single loyal knight in order to make it gain immunity to turning so that they will have a cool minion to do their bidding even when their opponents uses masses of undead controlling.


Hmmm, probably going to do that, but with 1 per 10 Levels (right and left ahnd are to tropy not to use) or similar.





By the way following the pattern you had there is two kinds of necromancer you did not approach:
Conjurer necromancer (that conjures the souls of the dead and stuff like that) which would be based on getting temporary undead and/or communing with the afterlife or the dead.(would have wide gaps in terms of variety)
Abjurer necromancer that is specialised in the protection of undead and from the undead(no clue what else to add to their theme so I understand why you did not make one).
I assumed that the knight necromancer was more or less filling the slot of "necromancy + evocation" but doing so in an unique approach.(else what would have been a necromancy + evocation necromancer? an elementalist necromancer that makes fiery skeletons and frozen zombies then undead electric werewolves then vampires with acidic blood then force pseudoliches that throw force bolts and makes force walls then banshees that scream hard enough to break ears? Now I figure out that I should probably make that class now that I described it and now I need a statblock for a prismatic boneyard)

You assumed correctly. interesting, you seem tob e getting my vibe for the setting pretty damn point on.
Given that we dont know each other that is kind of surprising.

Gonna edit in a Proto Conjurer Necromancer,

I didnt go for an ACTUAL evocation Necromancer for fluff reasons. In case a palyer reads this, I cant state exactly why, but yes, the Knight was ment as a stop gap with xcool isntead of bang.

And a more or less pure Defensive necromancer seemed...Idont know, kind of boring.

There will be plenty living casters specializing in combatting undead on that continent though.

Although I have to admit, your prismatic Boneyard is kidna cool. :)

Edited because of stupid typoes.