Fighter and Spell question.

[Pyramid Pug]

Sup everyone, just finished a session moments ago and I had some questions I asked my DM. He made a ruling and explained his reasoning and I agreed to it so as to not waste session time. I told him I'd ask on the forums (out of curiosity) after the session, so here I am.

Couple of sessions ago, I gained a lvl in fighter so I'm not used to it yet. We stopped for a short rest and I was just 10 hp short of being at max so I asked if I could use Second Wind outside of combat to heal up and then use the short rest to get 2nd Wind back up. My DM read the ability and thought about it and said that "While there's nothing written in the ability that prevents that, he imagines 2nd wind as being a burst of adrenaline that numbs pain and steels resolve so you shouldn't be able to use it out of combat". I'm fine with that ruling and honestly it was more of a spur of the moment thought that crossed my mind (I used a hit die anyway). But I am curious about what the forum would think about that.

The other question is this. We were resting in a forest that leads to a clearing, that leads to a temple. Out of the temple comes a platoon of 15 armed individuals with the leader clearly giving orders. The platoon was some.. 250-300 meters ( 820-984 fts for you yankees), and I asked if I cast Pass without a Trace would they be able to hear us (since it has verbal component). This one had a bit more of a debate going on, but not actually related to the part if they could hear us or not. My DM ruled that because we were in a forest and that was a company of 15 people talking with one dood shouting orders and some wearing metal and leather armor, they didn't hear us and we managed to skedaddle to safety. How would the forum rule that? At what distance would a spell with verbal component be heard? (this of course gets complicate by a number of factors, like walls, if the opposing party is actively searching for something amiss or the spell itself, shatter would most definitely be heard.)

This is more of a curiosity, I'm okay with the rulings my DM did. What's your opinion folks, how would you deal with these situations?

[JNAProductions]

I think, wholeheartedly, the DM ruled wrong on Second Wind. By RAW, certainly, but also because it's diminishing player options. I'm glad you didn't get upset over that, but I would not have blamed you if you had.

On the other hand, I think your DM for sure ruled right on Pass Without Trace. For me, I'd rule that Verbal components have to be spoken clearly, and so are audible out to... I dunno, 200'-300' or so. Not necessarily recognizable as spellcasting at that range, but certainly able to be heard, if someone is listening closely. At nearly 1,000'? Yeah, no, they ain't hearing that.

[Jerrykhor]

The Second Wind one is very clear, he should have ended at 'Nothing in the ability prevents using it out of combat.' A DM should not justify his poor understanding of rules by inserting his own warped logic of what is realistic or not.

Whether someone can hear your verbal spell component or not is usually up to DM ruling, and in this case it seems fair.

[Aett_Thorn]

Second Wind can absolutely be used out of combat. Though I agree with your DM that it was likely meant to reflect an in-combat adrenaline rush, nothing in the rules make that clear, and most other actions like this one can be used either in or out of combat.

I do agree with your DM on the call about Pass without Trace. At that distance, in that setting, it would likely be hard to hear someone. Inside, in a quiet library, sure. But not outside in the woods with other noise much closer going on. Even if you as a spell caster were speaking at a normal volume (60-65 dB), that would be down to about 30-40 dB at that distance, and even less with interceding plant life. A closer 60-65 dB source would drown that out pretty easily.

[MrStabby]

For the 1st one... It depends. 90% would say your DM ruled differently to the way I would. The thing is, that the game is played on a bit of a spectrum between a board game at one end (aim is to make rational choices within a defined rules framework) toa acting focussed role playing game at the other where the emphasis is on description and a focus on what makes a good scene. Most games are played somewhere in the middle but I would say that the DM maybe rulled right if you are right towards the descriptive RPG end of the spectrum.

For the second one... I would say chance hear within 60ft in loud environment, hear within 120ft in a quiet environment. Half that to hear what's being said/cast.

[Petrocorus]

Using second wind just before a short rest is a thing since the PHB is out. It is supposed to be an adrenaline rush, but the very fact the Fighter has this feature means he's able to control this adrenaline rush and trigger it when he wants.

The verbal component of spell must be said clearly. For me, that mean the level of a normal private conversation.
If you speak at the level of a normal conversation, can you be heard 200 m away? Can you be understood 50 m away?
Even if these soldiers maintained silence (which wasn't the case apparently), just the sound of their steps on forest ground would be louder than the sound of your voice for them i believe.

[NecessaryWeevil]

For what it's worth, my DMs agree with the OP's DM. "Do I waste a turn using Second Wind or do I risk the combat ending before I can use it" has been a dilemma every time I've played a Fighter.

[AttilatheYeon]

For what it's worth, my DMs agree with the OP's DM. "Do I waste a turn using Second Wind or do I risk the combat ending before I can use it" has been a dilemma every time I've played a Fighter.

It's a bonus action.

[RifleAvenger]

It's a bonus action. Might be something else they need that bonus action for. E.g. TWF, a subclass feature, etc.
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Personally, OP, I don't see the issue with allowing second wind out of combat, but I think your GM handled the Pass w/o Trace appropriately.

[Taevyr]

Second Wind definitely seems to be intended as a burst of adrenaline, but there's nothing in the text that stops you from using it whenever you want. That said, I can understand why your DM ruled the way he did, even if I don't necessarily agree.

[ashtrails]

I find it interesting that he ruled Second Wind 'narratively' but didn't even consider that you should NOT have to loudly and clearly announce for people in hearing distance that you are about cast a stealth spell : D

For Second Wind...
Personally, I wouldn't mind but if I'd mention that it's 'meant' for combat and you said something like 'alright, towards the end of the short rest I really hype myself up to power through what's to come', that's not only a nice description, but also perfectly in line with the spirit of the ability.

[Pyramid Pug]

Cheers for the input everyone. Nah I ain't bothered by the decision, it had never came up before and it was a "on the moment" call to keep the flow going instead of bogging down arguing dumb stuff, honestly our play time is short as is and we both wanted to keep the plot going forward. He's the kind of person to whom the rules have to make in game sense so they need to have some sort of rationale behind it.

For instance, he and I made a house rule with Bestow Curse. The spell requires you to touch an enemy and to him it doesn't make sense that it doesn't require a melee spell attack. I said okay, but it isn't fair that it would then require a wisdom save on top of that to stick, when most other spells only require one save (be it a stat save or a AC save), to which he agreed as well, so we ended up switching from a Wisdom save to a touch attack.

Hmmm.. now that I think about it, I should use that spell more often.. but spirit guardians is just soooo gooood!!

[cutlery]

so I asked if I could use Second Wind outside of combat to heal up and then use the short rest to get 2nd Wind back up. My DM read the ability and thought about it and said that "While there's nothing written in the ability that prevents that, he imagines 2nd wind as being a burst of adrenaline that numbs pain and steels resolve so you shouldn't be able to use it out of combat". I'm fine with that ruling and honestly it was more of a spur of the moment thought that crossed my mind (I used a hit die anyway). But I am curious about what the forum would think about that.


The ability mentions nothing about being in combat - instead it's part of kit of the class for managing one of its resources (hit points).

I suppose you can just use it at the end of a fight, I guess, but this isn't really a necessary ruling as the power isn't that strong. I assume Lay on Hands is usable outside of combat, right?




My DM ruled that because we were in a forest and that was a company of 15 people talking with one dood shouting orders and some wearing metal and leather armor, they didn't hear us and we managed to skedaddle to safety. How would the forum rule that? At what distance would a spell with verbal component be heard? (this of course gets complicate by a number of factors, like walls, if the opposing party is actively searching for something amiss or the spell itself, shatter would most definitely be heard.)


That's fine - hearing something at a normalish conversation voice at 900+ feet is hard.

For reference, some spells specifically note that others hear a loud sound when they are cast, and these are typically a 300 foot range. Pass without Trace has no such description, so I figure it ought to be less loud than Thunderwave. RAW, someone 350 feet from a Thunderwave doesn't hear a loud sound - that's weird, but 5e isn't a physics engine.

[Keravath]

Can class abilities be used out of combat? Generally yes. There is no rule stating that you can't. There are a number of features with the same or similar wording as second wind. Can a paladin only lay on hands in combat? It says they have to use an action. Most class features list the cost to use them in combat .. this does not mean the only time you can use these features is in combat.

All second wind says is the following:
"You have a limited well of stamina that you can draw on to protect yourself from harm. On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to Id10 + your fighter level."

All it says is that you draw on your stamina to restore some hit points. Nothing else. In addition, when I read the text, I don't see any implication in the way it is written that this well of stamina might only be available in combat.

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In terms of hearing a spell being cast, this is entirely up to the DM. Based on the ambient noise, distractions, local terrain and other factors the DM decides whether the sound can be heard. I'd usually go with a typical distance of 60'-100' or so unless it was noisy or quiet.

In your example, in my game, there would be absolutely no question that a group of soldiers 1000' away might be even remotely able to hear you casting the spell (it wouldn't even be a question worth discussing - the amount of noise being made by the soldiers is irrelevant - you could possibly try shouting at 1000' in a forest and not be heard, depending on wind and ambient noise). On the other hand, if you can SEE them then there is a chance that they can see you depending on the terrain and cover. So unless you are actually in the foliage there is a chance they might see you before you can cast the spell.

[da newt]

How far can you hear speech?

I'm no expert, but google says:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/voice-level-d_938.html If speaking volume is 70 db, it would only be ~ 12 db at 250m. A change of 10 db = 10x as loud.

I found a rule of thumb that normal speaking can be heard 20m and shouts 100m away

Sound is very dependent on background noise, objects in the way, sound reflective or absorbing surfaces, and even the wind. Lower frequencies travel farther too.

These are some common sound levels (measured at 1 ft unless otherwise noted):
10 dB: Normal breathing
20 dB: Whispering from five feet away
30 dB: Whispering nearby, quiet rural area
40 dB: Quiet library sounds
50 dB: Refrigerator, large office, quiet suburb
60 dB: Electric toothbrush, normal conversation
70 dB: Washing machine, freeway traffic
80 dB: Alarm clock, busy restaurant
90 dB: Subway train

IMO - 15 armored soldiers walking while their leader speaks to them could not hear someone speaking in a normal conversational voice 250m away through the woods - no way. A single guard standing still and listening MIGHT be able to hear someone talk 250m away in an open field, if there is no wind and no background noise, but it will be quieter than a whisper 5' away and just a bit more than the sound of their own breathing. 250m is a long way.

[MrStabby]

Cheers for the input everyone. Nah I ain't bothered by the decision, it had never came up before and it was a "on the moment" call to keep the flow going instead of bogging down arguing dumb stuff, honestly our play time is short as is and we both wanted to keep the plot going forward. He's the kind of person to whom the rules have to make in game sense so they need to have some sort of rationale behind it.

For instance, he and I made a house rule with Bestow Curse. The spell requires you to touch an enemy and to him it doesn't make sense that it doesn't require a melee spell attack. I said okay, but it isn't fair that it would then require a wisdom save on top of that to stick, when most other spells only require one save (be it a stat save or a AC save), to which he agreed as well, so we ended up switching from a Wisdom save to a touch attack.

Hmmm.. now that I think about it, I should use that spell more often.. but spirit guardians is just soooo gooood!!

Well planeshift requires both a melee spell attack and a charisma save...

I think the balance on different spells re save vs attack can be complex. In general, you miss out on doing critical hit amounts of damage if your spell doesn't do damage... on the other hand anything that gives you advantage on attacks is great and is much easier to come by than things that disadvantage saves. Use hiding/invisability, attacking a prone enemy, blindness, restrained or any other condition going to get advantage. And advantage on a role that can last, without concentration untill dispelled is potentilly very powerful.

[Samayu]

The reason most of us stick to the rules as written is because you get into grey areas, where the disagreements are more pronounced.

Like, bad guy falls, *ding* combat is over, "I use Second Wind", DM says "no, it's too late." "What? I'm still on full adrenaline rush!"

Or what about other tense situations, besides combat? Too many disagreements too often and people start getting angry and having less fun. If your group is OK with the house rules, that's great. But if things start getting heated, I recommend sticking to the letter of the law, rather than the spirit.

Besides, there are too many things in this game that don't make sense - why start trying to house rule just some of them. :-)