Finale: order of events

[Fish]

As Elan reminded us in today's strip, there's a ton of loose ends. We have a pretty good idea what some of them are, and we have some guesses about others, but only Rich knows which loose ends he plans to tie up. We might hope for a resolution to something, but there's no guarantee Rich intends to resolve, say, whether Jiminy's pole arm business ever takes off, or if Shojo is smoking rolled-up contracts in the Chaotic Good afterlife.

What's interesting (to me, at least) is wondering what order they are going to be resolved in. Let's just look at a few big items hanging over the party right now, numbering them in no particular order:
The gods plan to destroy the world if things get out of hand.
The Dark One plans to threaten the gods if the ritual is completed.
Redcloak and Xykon are going to try to complete the ritual.
The Order is going to try to stop Team Evil from completing the ritual.
Durkon wants to convince Redcloak to assist the gods in sealing off the Snarl.
The Snarl is going to break through into this plane of reality (or whatever it does).

If 5 is first, then 4 doesn't need to happen, which means 3 and 2 and 1 don't happen, and it probably takes 6 off the table too. If 4 is first, then 3 and 2 and 1 are out, but 5 doesn't necessarily follow and 6 could occur. If 3 happens first, then 2 can happen and the gods may attempt 1; and it's too late for 4, but 5 could still occur (if somehow the Dark One is the first god to be killed, making Redcloak have a change of heart). I strongly doubt 1 will happen at all, because that's kind of a motivating force rather than a real story outcome.

What's your take?

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that your outline and structure is sound, but I also think that Eventus Interruptus will occur thanks to whatever it is that the fiends are doing and what the invisible kidnappers are up to. Both of those parties (remember the demonic cockroaches and their "nine sides" observation) have their own motives and goals, which will, I think, toss a wrench into both Team Xykon's and Team Roy's plans and objectives.

The only thing I am comfortable with is Belkar dying and MiTD eating Redcloak. The when I am not so sure about.

[Ionathus]

I think that your outline and structure is sound, but I also think that Eventus Interruptus will occur thanks to whatever it is that the fiends are doing and what the invisible kidnappers are up to. Both of those parties (remember the demonic cockroaches and their "nine sides" observation) have their own motives and goals, which will, I think, toss a wrench into both Team Xykon's and Team Roy's plans and objectives.

The only thing I am comfortable with is Belkar dying and MiTD eating Redcloak. The when I am not so sure about.

I'm skeptical that Redcloak will be devoured. It's a good Chekhov's Gun that Xykon set up in the prequel book, but I have a hard time envisioning how Redcloak dying could fit with 1.) the Dark One Quiddity Stuff and 2.) The MitD's character development.

My theory is that the "devour Redcloak" line was a red herring, or at least a sign that Xykon is preparing for disobedience from Redcloak...and even thinks he's got him now fully under his thumb. But that was written ~13 years ago, and a lot of plot points have kind of stepped on that dynamic or pushed it to the side. While it's still possible, and while I definitely think that Chekhov's Gun is going to go off, I don't see it actually happening as planned.

[Fish]

I think that your outline and structure is sound, but I also think that Eventus Interruptus will occur thanks to whatever it is that the fiends are doing...
I have a feeling that the interruption of the IFCC will be as a catalyst to cause or prevent one of 3, 4 or 5. I'm not sure that their intervention will cause anything new to happen that would interfere with those main plot points. Maybe there's an outside chance that some soul would take over V's body and help Redcloak cast the ritual, but that would mean assuming a lot of other things happening first.

Are there any other loose ends that should go in that list?

[KorvinStarmast]

nice post My only rejoinder is "MiTD is always hungry" and the gobbling of Redcloak will include that as a gag line. (Yes, pun intended, as Redcloak will most probably prove tough to swallow ... another pun intended ...) :smallcool:

I have a feeling that the interruption of the IFCC will be as a catalyst to cause or prevent one of 3, 4 or 5. I'm not sure that their intervention will cause anything new to happen that would interfere with those main plot points. Maybe there's an outside chance that some soul would take over V's body and help Redcloak cast the ritual, but that would mean assuming a lot of other things happening first.

Are there any other loose ends that should go in that list?
Hmmm: lemme think.
a. I am pretty sure that IFCC also do not want the Snarl to devour the world. Their ax to grind is with the good (alignment-wise) deities.
b. That world in the two rifts (Azure City and Desert) is a major loose end, and I think it's a Message. I get the idea that Thor and Odin becoming aware of it by accident has some off screen implications now that we'll see reflected about halfway to two thirds of the way through this book. Rich has thrown curve balls before.
c. Establishment of the four quiddity 'seal' - Loki wants it and Thor wants it - strikes me as a necessary loose end to be tied up ... yet another pun, intended, given the nature of the Snarl.
d. I don't think 6 happens based on c ^^^.
e. Belkar's death - or the reveal that our chain was once again being yanked - is a necessary loose end.

[Forevaxp]

Not exactly a super serious one, but we also have Chekhov’s Allosaurus with Bloodfeast currently under a Baleful Polymorph :smallbiggrin:

[Ionathus]

Not exactly a super serious one, but we also have Chekhov’s Allosaurus with Bloodfeast currently under a Baleful Polymorph :smallbiggrin:

Talk about Red (Herring) Allosauruses...I spent most of Utterly Dwarfed waiting for that boy to break free and chomp some vamps, and I know a significant chunk of the forum was predicting his return at Firmament.

When it does finally happen, it will be suitably awesome, I am certain.

[Riftwolf]

Just had a thought about the IFCC: when V was detained in the pyramid, their body fell to the ground frozen in place. V couldn't move their body, nor could the IFCC send a demon to puppet the body about (as it broke the contract).
What if no-one can move the body while V is detained? The three minute window would be enough to leave V out in the open, or even worse giving away the Orders hiding place (ie wedging the door open).

[denthor]

Rich said the IFCC would be a force going foward. In do not split the party.

Where does a dragon queen come in?

This is going to be a phone book size book.

Belkar has a death scene. My guess saving the blonde cleric.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar has a death scene. My guess saving the blonde cleric. That would be Minrah, right? Or do you mean Hilgya?

[Fish]

I suppose there is a way in which 1) can happen.

3) Redcloak and Xykon complete the ritual.
2) The Dark One starts using the Snarl to destroy the gods.
1) The (remaining) gods start to enact their plan to unmake the world.

Then an additional secret sauce, where a new world is procured, then

6) The Snarl breaks through into this (new) plane of reality.
5) Durkon convinces Redcloak to assist the (remaining) gods in sealing off the Snarl.


That would enable most of the plot points to actually occur, all except (4) the Order successfully stops the ritual. It would be a great reversal for the end of Act II.

[Bilbo Baggins]

c. Establishment of the four quiddity 'seal' - Loki wants it and Thor wants it - strikes me as a necessary loose end to be tied up ... yet another pun, intended, given the nature of the Snarl.

For a while now I've thought that the possibility of creating a 4-color seal with the Dark One's new quiddity is just a red herring of sorts. It smells much like the plan at Girard's gate to guard it with summoned Planar Allies, which seemed reasonable at the time but in retrospect was only there to provide a reasonable motivation for the characters to continue and a hope that they could succeed. Indeed, the possibility of a 4-color seal:

- Provides motivation for the characters to behave in a certain way: the events of this book so far were all caused by Durkon trying to talk sense into Redcloak; and
- Gives hope of success to the readers: after the reveal that billions of worlds were undone by the snarl, we need a good reason why we should expect it to end any differently this time.

But I don't think it will happen because:
- It lacks a sense of satisfying resolution: Thor comments, "Sure, new rifts would form again somewhere else in a few thousand years, but as long as we kept spot-welding them as they came up, there's no telling how long this world could last." While the story *could* end with that possibility still in play, my gut tells me that the snarl problem will be resolved with more finality.
- There are other things going on: we know that there's something mysterious going on with the planet in the rift and the Order of the Scribble's falling-out. Whatever's up with that, I'm sure it could lead to some other way to permanently deal with the snarl's threat.

[Fish]

For a while now I've thought that the possibility of creating a 4-color seal with the Dark One's new quiddity is just a red herring of sorts. ... It lacks a sense of satisfying resolution: Thor comments, "Sure, new rifts would form again somewhere else in a few thousand years, but as long as we kept spot-welding them as they came up, there's no telling how long this world could last."
I think you're partially right. The four-color seal tells us how to protect against the Snarl, but not who will ultimately pull it off. I seriously doubt the Dark One will ever agree to anything like cooperation, and I'm equally dubious that Redcloak could ever truly put the good of the goblinoids above his own personal vendetta. I imagine some other deity will come along to provide the necessary fourth color — some remnant of the old gods, some new creature, the MiTD's daddy, whatever. (I have my own theories about who.)

The question of duration, on the other hand, could work very well. The world has lived for thousands of years under the current regime of gods, and the goblins got the short end of the stick for all that time. It wouldn't be a bad thing to come under some new regime for an equal period of time — especially if the "who" part of the four-color equation is someone quite different. Imagine living for thousands of years on a world where the Dark One and the other gods have to cooperate on a regular basis. Now imagine that instead of the Dark One, it's Fruit Pie Sorcerer. Or Banjo, or something.

I've felt for some time that Banjo is the solution that Rich is aiming for. We have seen that there are real worshippers in the Banjo pantheon, not just Elan. We've seen that Elan's idea of a "happy ending" includes silly things that probably shouldn't come true. We can imagine how Elan's happy ending ("for you, at least") would not necessarily be happy for others who take their religion more seriously. And if the Banjo pantheon solves its problems with pie-eating contests (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html), it won't create another Snarl.

A lot of forumites absolutely hate the idea that Banjo will have anything to do with the solution, probably because they too take things a little too seriously.

I think this is a perfect solution because it allows Rich to actually carry out the threat of finishing the ritual, destroying some gods, letting the bad guys appear to win, and then pulling out a ready-made (and silly) solution to save the day.

[KorvinStarmast]

I seriously doubt the Dark One will ever agree to anything like cooperation, and I'm equally dubious that Redcloak could ever truly put the good of the goblinoids above his own personal vendetta. The invisible whomevers and the permutations of the IFCC open some doorways, to be sure.
I've felt for some time that Banjo is the solution that Rich is aiming for. We have seen that there are real worshippers in the Banjo pantheon, not just Elan. We've seen that Elan's idea of a "happy ending" includes silly things that probably shouldn't come true. We can imagine how Elan's happy ending ("for you, at least") would not necessarily be happy for others who take their religion more seriously. And if the Banjo pantheon solves its problems with pie-eating contests (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html), it won't create another Snarl.

A lot of forumites absolutely hate the idea that Banjo will have anything to do with the solution, probably because they too take things a little too seriously.

I think this is a perfect solution because it allows Rich to actually carry out the threat of finishing the ritual, destroying some gods, letting the bad guys appear to win, and then pulling out a ready-made (and silly) solution to save the day. As for that
OoTS starts out with lame jokes, has a story, ends with lame jokes will mean that follow on productions from the Giant will lack a significant number of previous fans who do not care for that kind of treatment. Ever since he decided to make his living doing this, some of the kinds of options that you mention would seem to be foreclosed.

[Precure]

I always believe that that thing he has done to MitD in SoD will be Xykon's undoing.

[Ionathus]

For a while now I've thought that the possibility of creating a 4-color seal with the Dark One's new quiddity is just a red herring of sorts.

I disagree, heavily.

We spent a LOT of time with Thor in the Astral Plane. Far too much, in my opinion, to throw that all away. You mention Planar Ally, but that was only mentioned in a single page, halfway through the dungeon. The conflict was not "how will we stop Xykon & LG," it was "how will we get there before them." The plot seems pretty firmly anchored around TDO's participation at this point -- far more than I'd expect for a red herring.

And, really, has Rich ever made significant use of red herrings? That "gotcha!" attitude doesn't really match his writing style.

The potential alliance with TDO is, narratively, just too appealing. It helps us find a lasting resolution to the Snarl, and neatly ties in the goblinoids' plight with possible (sacrifice) redemption for Redcloak.

Sure, it might become complicated by the IFCC or the World in the Rift. But I don't expect the TDO alliance to become completely irrelevant, at any point really.

[Fish]

Ever since he decided to make his living doing this, some of the kinds of options that you mention would seem to be foreclosed.
I can appreciate that you think so, but I don't think it'll stop him from telling the story he wants to tell. He knew early on that Durkon would become a vampire and he followed through on it — and he did it in a way that was elevated above the early comedic potential (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) of "Durkon hates the undead so much." The fact that Rich keeps propping up that early joke with Elan (and the secret identity of the MitD) suggests he's not willing to dump an idea he likes just because some unproved number of humorless readers threaten not to follow his theoretical Next Project.

[KorvinStarmast]

I can appreciate that you think so, but I don't think it'll stop him from telling the story he wants to tell. Evidence to support my thought, form an in-world perspective, comes from here. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html) I may be wrong, but I think he used that as a hint that Banjo remains comic relief (third: he's a puppet).

Not to mention, Belkar began as comic relief and evolved into an actual character. (I guess perhaps your point is that Banjo might be treated likewise?)

I can of course be wrong about that. As I noted above, Rich has tossed a few curve balls before.

Events:
a. Belkar's death can fit anywhere among any of these: it's temporal location isn't important.

b. The MiTD reveal comes, I think either after the ritual is cast or before it is cast the the reveal coincides with the ritual never being cast, at all, by Xykon and Redcloak. That leaves the ritual to be cast by two other parties. (V and Redcloak are my candidates for that; and V is persuaded to do this as a form of atonement for familicide: save the world as payback for your sin, even though it is rife with risks ... )

c. The gods plan to destroy the world if things get out of hand.

That has to be done in serial after

d. The Snarl is going to break through into this plane of reality (or whatever it does).

Which happens after

e. The Dark One plans to threaten the gods if the ritual is completed.

which happens after

f. Redcloak and Xykon are going to try to complete the ritual. (Or Redcloak and V after the order succeeds, and then the other shoe drops and the ritual needs to happen anyway ... the Redcloak/V combo is contingent on this - Durkon convinces Redcloak to assist the gods in sealing off the Snarl - because of new events and facts and factions coming into play).

All of which Which happens after

g. The Order is going to try to stop Team Evil from completing the ritual.

Which will be, at best, only partly successful due to the "other sides/parties" getting involved to complicate things.

Roy's mini-speech in Azure city regarding the contracts being voided remains relevant. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) The Order's raison d'etre changed at that point. Why do I mention this? Roy is all in on stopping Xykon, and so is the rest of the order, but simply Stopping Xykon may not, nay, will not, suffice.

But there's a problem that I am not able to puzzle out at the moment:

Casting the ritual takes a couple of weeks. Given the compressed timeline since DSTP was finished, the various other sides/factions/parties can get up to plenty of mischief during "a couple of weeks" ... and Belkar dying in a fight to protect the two casters of the ritual would be an interesting twist. (Remember when he was supposed to protect V in the Fight against Xykon in DCF? Here's his chance to get that right ....)

[Fish]

Evidence to support my thought, form an in-world perspective, comes from here. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html) I may be wrong, but I think he used that as a hint that Banjo remains comic relief (third: he's a puppet).
That could also simply be Roy's opinion. If we took characters' words as Gospel of Giant, reality in OOTS-world would look very different. Tarquin wouldn't be out of the story, for one.

To my way of thinking, if Rich had wanted to drop the idea for being too silly, it would have been a lot easier to simply stop using Banjo. But Elan continues to make references to him, as recently as the Godsmoot (strip 949). Banjo has more appearances than, Therkla, Loki, Bozzok, Jirix, and Hel. Yes, the whole thing could be just a running gag, I don't disagree with that possibility, but I think the potential is still there.


Not to mention, Belkar began as comic relief and evolved into an actual character. (I guess perhaps your point is that Banjo might be treated likewise?)
They all kind of did, yeah. Redcloak changed from a sycophantic yes-man to a character with depth and pathos. Haley stopped being a token female with rogue stereotypes and became someone with self-doubt and a family history. About the only major character who hasn't fully developed is Xykon. There's no reason to assume Rich doesn't have the ability to write whatever ending he intended from the start.


But there's a problem that I am not able to puzzle out at the moment:

Casting the ritual takes a couple of weeks. Given the compressed timeline since DSTP was finished, the various other sides/factions/parties can get up to plenty of mischief during "a couple of weeks" ... and Belkar dying in a fight to protect the two casters of the ritual would be an interesting twist. (Remember when he was supposed to protect V in the Fight against Xykon in DCF? Here's his chance to get that right ....)
That would be an awesome twist, and I hope that's what happens. Belkar has been adversarial all along with both Durkon and Vaarsuvius, and to see him step up and save them would be very satisfying.

The several-weeks timeframe is more worrisome. It would mean the Order raced here aboard the Mechane in order to ... wait? search? hang around? until the last minute before saving the day. I rather think we're going to see the ritual, and witness it to completion. "Saving the day and stopping everything" is about the least interesting way to resolve all these loose ends.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, the whole thing could be just a running gag, I don't disagree with that possibility, but I think the potential is still there. Yeah, it could go either way, though running gags do have their own value. (like dropping the sword and losing track of a certain cleric...)

The several-weeks timeframe is more worrisome. It would mean the Order raced here aboard the Mechane in order to ... wait? search? hang around? until the last minute before saving the day. I rather think we're going to see the ritual, and witness it to completion. "Saving the day and stopping everything" is about the least interesting way to resolve all these loose ends. Yes. I think that this is where the IFCC (and other factions?) insert themselves into the whole scenario and take us in some unexpected directions, which Rich has been doing for most of the series at various pivot points. Looking forward to seeing the what on that.

[Fish]

I think that this is where the IFCC (and other factions?) insert themselves into the whole scenario and take us in some unexpected directions, which Rich has been doing for most of the series at various pivot points.
This is mostly just speculation that is outside the scope of this thread, but let's look at that weeks-long duration a minute.

Suppose the Order retreats from this sortie — they hide, they go somewhere, whatever. They're no longer watching the Rift. And since O-Chul and Lien are no longer there, nobody else is watching the Rift either. Maybe the order uses V's person-locating spells to find O-Chul and Lien. Maybe it's something else.

Anyway, Team Evil goes into the door that actually contains the Gate, by luck or by design. They set up shop there and start doing the ritual. They don't come back out.

The Order returns. They can see that Team Evil is gone, but they don't know why, or more importantly where they are. "Oh no, they've found the Gate!" the Order says. "We have to stop them."

But how? They don't know which door to look in.

Figuring out which door is the right one could take the Order a long time. How long, exactly, depends on how much the Order knows.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is mostly just speculation that is outside the scope of this thread, but let's look at that weeks-long duration a minute.

Suppose the Order retreats from this sortie — they hide, they go somewhere, whatever. They're no longer watching the Rift. And since O-Chul and Lien are no longer there, nobody else is watching the Rift either. Maybe the order uses V's person-locating spells to find O-Chul and Lien. Maybe it's something else. Not sure what the multi dimensional stone does, but once the Order is behind one of those doors, they may get stuck for a while which would give Xykon and Redcloak some time if they (a) find the gate and (b) start the ritual, which seems to be a necessary condition for any of the big finale dominos to start to fall. And Lien will do something insanely heroic - she's in this story for a reason - but I think that will be an IFCC based hazard in her case.

MitD is a wild card. He'll interfere somehow but I don't yet know how.

I don't think TDO enters into this until Redcloak and he interact, which requires the ritual, and which I think will happen (as a follow up to Durkon and Thor interacting). I think that Redcloak will be in for a surprise when the TDO first speaks to him.

Since Xykon's aims are opposed to Redcloak's aims, the connection between TDO and Redcloak triggers a reaction where Xykon takes Redcloak out - or tries to. Something the MiTD does will make this harder than it needs to be.

The tension between Xykon and Redcloak needs to be resolved somehow, and "Xykon takes Redcloak out {or starts to}" looks to be a great chance for the Order to show up and help Redcloak fight/defeat Xykon, which leads to Durkon having leverage with Redcloak (I did this for you, you do this for me) to get him to cast that drop of purple quiddity so that the Snarl can be better restrained. But in a weird turn of events, due to the spell on MiTD, MiTD ends up eating Redcloak when it's all over. MiTD is easily confused and is always hungry. It is quite possible that O-Chul (who has no love for Redcloak) is the key catalyst to this.

I don't think that fits your finale idea very well, but some of those pieces do fit together. Others are a complete S.W.A.G.

[Fish]

I don't think TDO enters into this until Redcloak and he interact...
You want a totally off-the-wall guess?

The Dark One and Redcloak...
...don't interact at all, because The Dark One is already dead.

All this time we've assumed that TDO made an artifact for goblins to wear, because that's what it says in SoD. What if that is TDO's actual, personal cloak, imbued with a residue of TDO's godly power and knowledge? It would make a lot of sense, given what we know: we've never actually seen TDO appear in-panel in real life. We've only seen people talk about him, or call up images of him. Redcloak doesn't actually talk to him.

Problem: in SoD, the Dark One's cloak is magenta, not red. But in other appearances, it totally is red. Maybe he switched cloaks.


The tension between Xykon and Redcloak needs to be resolved somehow...
Yes, I've been wondering how that fits together. If Xykon is killed he'll know the phylactery wasn't swapped, and I don't know how he'll react to that. On the other hand, if the phylactery is destroyed first, we may never get to see the look on his face when he figures it out.

[Schroeswald]

You want a totally off-the-wall guess?

The Dark One and Redcloak...
...don't interact at all, because The Dark One is already dead.

All this time we've assumed that TDO made an artifact for goblins to wear, because that's what it says in SoD. What if that is TDO's actual, personal cloak, imbued with a residue of TDO's godly power and knowledge? It would make a lot of sense, given what we know: we've never actually seen TDO appear in-panel in real life. We've only seen people talk about him, or call up images of him. Redcloak doesn't actually talk to him.

Problem: in SoD, the Dark One's cloak is magenta, not red. But in other appearances, it totally is red. Maybe he switched cloaks.


Yes, I've been wondering how that fits together. If Xykon is killed he'll know the phylactery wasn't swapped, and I don't know how he'll react to that. On the other hand, if the phylactery is destroyed first, we may never get to see the look on his face when he figures it out.

Jirix has talked to The Dark One and told us about it, and I see no way how he could be lying about that, in addition he keeps destroying Thor's messengers.

[Riftwolf]

Also what are the rules on clerics of dead Gods getting spells? I feel like it's very campaign specific; I seem to remember Forgotten Realms had a dead God that clerics could follow but not get power from, and Pathfinder (Golarion?) had a dead God whose clerics abused poorly written rules on Conjuration to fake divine power.
I feel like, given the setting, a dead God of a NSW Pantheon would be filled in by Biff the Understudy, or another God wearing a hat and glasses. As TDO is the only source of purple essence, I doubt either would be possible for him.

[Fish]

Jirix has talked to The Dark One and told us about it, and I see no way how he could be lying about that, in addition he keeps destroying Thor's messengers.
We don't know how long it's been since TDO has destroyed Thor's messengers, and none of the other gods have been able to contact him since then. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) Why not? Because he's just ignoring them? Or because he's dead?


Also what are the rules on clerics of dead Gods getting spells?
We've seen the question kinda-sorta addressed twice — Elan points out that you can be the cleric of a cause (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html), and the Creed of Stone doesn't have a deity. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) Technically, I suppose, Redcloak can be so invested in his cause that the deity has become an afterthought. He's granting himself spells, or in some way the cloak is granting him spells rather than the god.

The only real objection here is that Jirix would have to be lying. That's not a problem in itself; however, Jirix isn't on-site to explain his lie, which makes it narratively unsatisfying.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why not? Because he's just ignoring them? Or because he's dead? I don't think that Thor would be having Durkon contact Redcloak for the drop of (fourth) puple quiddity from a dead deity since the missing original (fourth) Green quiddity is based on the dead deities: the Eastern Pantheon. I got from that the following: bits of purple quiddity would need to come from a living / alive deity. TDO needs to be "alive" (whatever that means in god years) for that Purple quiddity to be available at all.

This is all based on what's available from Thor's exposition to Durkon over a series of strips. If TDO is no more, wouldn't Loki or Thor or Tiamat know that already?

And if that's wrong, I'd be interested to see that explained on screen, as it were. If Durkon's quest for purple quiddity is a red (or purple) herring it would be quite a surprise to me.

[Quartz]

What's your take?

There are two real antagonists: Redcloak and Xykon. Redcloak will come around so the world can be saved; Roy needs to kill Xykon to complete his arc. They will be dealt with in that order. It's entirely possible that Redcloak will join forces with the Order to kill Xykon. Or he may just give them the phylactery. Xykon knows too much to be left existing.

Elan, Haley, and Roy are going to survive. Durkon and possibly V are going to die - the Snarl may or may not be involved. Belkar isn't going to die: the prophecy is going to come true in some other way.

Alternatively, someone (Elan?) is going to try talking to the Snarl and succeed and talk it out of its anger. Perhaps it will let the goblins migrate to the world it has created. Perhaps it will reify itself in the outer planes and become a deity. Perhaps it will simply move on.

[Riftwolf]

Elan, Haley, and Roy are going to survive. Durkon and possibly V are going to die - the Snarl may or may not be involved. Belkar isn't going to die: the prophecy is going to come true in some other way.

You believe that two characters, one of which has died twice already, will die permanently with no foreshadowing, while another character whose death has been signposted and teased for the last five years or so will get off on a technicality?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I feel that between everything everyone else said there are enough telegraphed twists (as in: it has clearly been announced they will be twists, but it's very hard to tell what the twists will look like) that it's basically impossible to piece together the ending. The IFCC, the planet in the rift, the gods being made aware of said planet, the fact that they have created and destroyed countless planets and this was still news to them, Greentext and Orangetext who liked existing,however the Dark One might react to the proposal, any possible fallout from that last vampire in Dwarven lands... And that's not even counting the (as far as their impact on the bigger story of the world goes) more minor ones, like when Vaarsuvius will be checked into the lower planes, when Bloodfeast will be turned back, how Belkar dies (or something) etc. And I can't even tell in which of those categories the identity of the MitD goes.

The list of known unknown plot elements yet to play out is actually longer than the list of known plot elements yet to play out.

[Quartz]

You believe that two characters, one of which has died twice already, will die permanently with no foreshadowing, while another character whose death has been signposted and teased for the last five years or so will get off on a technicality?

Durkon's death has most definitely been foreshadowed: check out his parting with Hilgya and Kudzu.

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkon's death has most definitely been foreshadowed: check out his parting with Hilgya and Kudzu.
Are you referring to this scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1181.html)?

[Sir_Norbert]

If you have the right coloured goggles on, anything can look like foreshadowing.

[Lord Raziere]

Look, the "Banjo Saves The Day" and "Redcloak Should Die" hypotheticals are just that: hypotheticals.

realistically, its not just a new god that needs to be helping: its a new god with a 9th level spell slot casting cleric. There is a world of difference between a made up god that the party's spoony bard put on his character sheet, and a god that the GM has enshrined and built in as important to the setting. Even if we count those orcs, there is simply no way Banjo has that kind of power.

while Redcloak/Dark One not helping....basically means the world is doomed. If we had another new god that was a contender for the Dark One, we'd have got them by now.

and honestly I don't see what is peoples problems with the OOTS pulling off getting Redcloak to help? Yes Redcloak is incredibly stubborn about this, evil, hypocritical, revenge focused and caused far too many unnecessary deaths. He's basically a more intelligent better written Sasuke Uchiha at the end of the day. But! If his crimes were lighter and his mindset more amenable.....it wouldn't mean anything to successfully convince him to turn over a new leaf now wouldn't it? A Redcloak that would be so easily swayed and have so little deaths on his hands, would be a Redcloak that wouldn't have gone through all this trouble in the first place. That doesn't mean he can't be persuaded, simply that it will take measures above and beyond what most people would consider reasonable to make it happen.

like sure, all you people wanting Redcloak to die, thinking "he is so stubborn, I could never convince this guy, clearly he is beyond hope". have a point. your a normal person, and therefore want people to act reasonably within certain tolerances, and Redcloak is beyond those tolerances. This is a perfectly normal reaction in normal circumstances, and completely valid to say if he just some jerk living in normal society. But these are circumstances where if he isn't convinced? Where if he doesn't get saved? The world ends and a whole lot of pain and suffering that could be prevented won't be. These are not circumstances where someone can just dismiss him and find someone else to fill the part. Sometimes there is no one else, sometimes there is actually no other option.

Like even if I DID find someone else to do it, it would still be worth trying to convince Redcloak to switch sides, not for any moral redemption reason, but because its just tactically/strategically advisable. Having two people who could possibly fix this whole mess is way better than one, and denying Xykon a 17th+ level cleric would be golden, especially one that has his phylactery on him. Having two such clerics also makes sure that if Xykon kills one, you got another. More chances against a powerful lich like him? Why wouldn't I go for that? The entire world hinges on my success, its either go for any option or possibility that could prevent that the end of the world in hopes that it will work no matter how improbable- or let everything die. One chance that it can be done is good, but two is better. You can never be too careful.

And as it stands, due to Redcloaks own ignorance about the situation and then skepticism/doubt of the facts, he will already be punished for going through with his Plan in either of its success states: either he dies to the gods destroying the world and watches as his own god whom he sacrificed everything for in the afterlife fades away from a lack of prayer, or the Dark One attempts to use the Gate.....and in doing so either makes the gods refuse to negotiate and thus cause a new Snarl that kills everyone or the Dark One in a classic case of "villain attempts to control something more powerful than themselves and it backfires horribly" tries to use it but the Snarl turns on him and he gets killed anyways, then the Snarl probably kills all the other gods then unmakes existence. So really, Redcloak is just digging his own grave, there is no world where his Plan will be a success, due to the narrative laws involved. But the heroes succeeding in persuading him to change? Is at least a possible end where his punishment won't take the entire rest of the world with him, even if he gets redeemed in the process.

This isn't about preventing Redcloak from succeeding in his plan, this is about preventing Redcloak from shooting him and everyone in the cosmos in the foot, because there is no way his plan will succeed, now that I think about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you have the right coloured goggles on, anything can look like foreshadowing. I wear my sunglasses at night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2LTL8KgKv8) :smallcool:

[Metastachydium]

This isn't about preventing Redcloak from succeeding in his plan, this is about preventing Redcloak from shooting him and everyone in the cosmos in the foot, because there is no way his plan will succeed, now that I think about it.

(Hm. I wonder.)

[Fish]

I agree with Metastachydium. I rather think Redcloak's plan will succeed, or perhaps "succeed" in quotes.

If the objective is to get Redcloak to change his mind and work against the Snarl, then the best way I can think of is for Redcloak to "succeed" in his plan — he does what he was told to do — but it doesn't do what he hoped it would. No justice for Gobbotopia, no betterment for goblins' social standing, just mindless petty revenge by the Dark One (to name one possibility).

The second-best way is to have the Dark One change the plan. If the Dark One stops playing the short game and starts looking at his own long-term survival, it's possible he'll give Redcloak new orders. (I doubt this is going to happen, but you know, never say never.)

[Dr.Zero]

I'm skeptical that Redcloak will be devoured. It's a good Chekhov's Gun that Xykon set up in the prequel book, but I have a hard time envisioning how Redcloak dying could fit with 1.) the Dark One Quiddity Stuff and 2.) The MitD's character development.

My theory is that the "devour Redcloak" line was a red herring, or at least a sign that Xykon is preparing for disobedience from Redcloak...and even thinks he's got him now fully under his thumb. But that was written ~13 years ago, and a lot of plot points have kind of stepped on that dynamic or pushed it to the side. While it's still possible, and while I definitely think that Chekhov's Gun is going to go off, I don't see it actually happening as planned.

I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.

[Emanick]

I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.

It probably is. In fact, given how the narrative chessboard is set up, that might be the likeliest scenario.

[Itomon]

We don't know how long it's been since TDO has destroyed Thor's messengers, and none of the other gods have been able to contact him since then. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) Why not? Because he's just ignoring them? Or because he's dead?Maybe there is an issue about the quiddity being different; we never saw different quiddities together except in crayon - so maybe there are cosmic rules denying contact between Thor and TDO directly?

Speaking of crayon, is it just me that find intriguing the fact that the crayon snarl is purple, same as TDO's quiddity?

Thinking about the snarl, it was created everytime gods had to dispose of an idea, rejected by other gods. The idea of the Snarl may thus be "the rejected, the trash, the disposable" and it is also TDO. Redcloak took to himself and his gobbo ppl as their one true god, not because of gobbo blood, but coz of the feeling of being rejected/disopsed/trashed by the universe and all.

So, if TDO sphere of divinity is rejection, not the vengeance that Redcloak himself carries, we can relate to another character that also have been rejected and negleted so far... the MitD. '-'

Maybe the MitD horrid appearance has a reason... (tun dun dun!) It is made of purple crayon! It is the Baby Snarl, and also TDO himself - and maybe this is why both Redcloak and Xykon are so confident in their crusade. TDO didn't participate in the gods' original rules, then nothing stops it to wander in the mortal realm. He can be a god that is not like any god at all!

...maybe i got a little carried away xD

[Ghosty]

I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.

I've thought that the MITD finally figuring out who he is, will mean that he will no longer feel compelled to devour RedCloak. Which means he was playing along---as a child would, not as an adult trying to fool someone---when Xykon gave him the compulsion in SoD. It also might mean there still exists another additional quiddity beside TDO's

I can't see Banjo being a substantial piece of wrapping up this plot.

Aside, anyone else think Tiamat may make an appearance? Or is her anger at the Black Dragons being killed, being handled by the Fiends?

EDIT: were it not for the whole 'last breath being drawn stuff', a great way to deal with Belkar would be for him to go to the World in the Rift. It would exemplify Minrah telling him about being a whole new person, where nobody knew what the old person was like, and wouldn't remind him of what he used to be. He might actually get to that CG afterlife with Shojo.

[Metastachydium]

Aside, anyone else think Tiamat may make an appearance? Or is her anger at the Black Dragons being killed, being handled by the Fiends?


Well, I'm all for Team Tiamat and I do think the Voices, the mystery ally or both could be her agents, but I'm also pretty sure she will not visit the Tomb in person.

[Ginasius]

The only real objection here is that Jirix would have to be lying. That's not a problem in itself; however, Jirix isn't on-site to explain his lie, which makes it narratively unsatisfying.

If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.

[understatement]

If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.

......what?

[Schroeswald]

If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.

And you think this is, a more satisfying thing than Jirix lying? It still can’t be explained easily from the perspective of the plot and in addition to that doesn’t seem possible, Redcloak accidentally imprinted false memories on Jirix by casting Raise Dead on him? That’s breaking literally any understanding of how spells work. Jirix could theoretically get involved in the plot and have his reasons for lying developed, but no one has any reason to know these fake memories exist and stretches believability.

[Thales]

I'm skeptical of MITD eating Redcloak being a significant plot point. It was only introduced in SoD, which most readers aren't familiar with. For it to pay off in a big way in the comic, it would have to be introduced to the broader audience well in advance of when it happens, and I think we're running out of time for that.

[Emanick]

I'm skeptical of MITD eating Redcloak being a significant plot point. It was only introduced in SoD, which most readers aren't familiar with. For it to pay off in a big way in the comic, it would have to be introduced to the broader audience well in advance of when it happens, and I think we're running out of time for that.

We could have close to 300 pages left. I think there’s still time to introduce that plot point. I can’t imagine why Rich would have included that SoD scene if he didn’t intend it to pay off later.

[Edric O]

There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed].

[KorvinStarmast]

There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed]. If it's "Heisenberg" I may have to face palm ... :smallyuk:

[Schroeswald]

If it's "Heisenberg" I may have to face palm ... :smallyuk:

My guess is Xiranomixgovort.

[littlebum2002]

There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed].

Also that when Xykon is finally killed, the strip title will be "Roy has 99 problems but a Lich ain't one"

[Mic_128]

About the only major character who hasn't fully developed is Xykon.

A huge amount of "Start of Darkness" was developing his character.

[littlebum2002]

A huge amount of "Start of Darkness" was developing his character.

Really? I'd argue that SoD was more about Redcloak, and that we got very little character development about Xykon at all.

All we learned about Xykon is that

He was evil even as a teenager
He spent a lot of his life doing evil things
Then he joined Redcloak
And sometimes he is more clever than he acts

Did I miss anything?

[Sir_Norbert]

Did I miss anything?

Coffee. Clearly the key to not only Xykon's development, but a vital clue to how the world will be saved.

[Emanick]

Character "development" implies change. Xykon is supposed to be a largely static character (with a couple of exceptions), so he doesn't really need development. He is an established presence that other characters react to, not a dynamic and changing entity.

In fact, a running theme in OOTS seems to be that one has to be capable of flexibility and evolution in order to survive or thrive. By being unwilling to develop, Xykon may symbolically be signing his own death warrant. If Redcloak follows the same path, he's likely doomed as well.

[Metastachydium]

Character "development" implies change. Xykon is supposed to be a largely static character (with a couple of exceptions), so he doesn't really need development. He is an established presence that other characters react to, not a dynamic and changing entity.

In fact, a running theme in OOTS seems to be that one has to be capable of flexibility and evolution in order to survive or thrive. By being unwilling to develop, Xykon may symbolically be signing his own death warrant. If Redcloak follows the same path, he's likely doomed as well.

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that. Xykon made the big decision of his life, and became a lich (i.e. evolved into one); ever since he never needed to grow in any sense to stay the single most powerful character around.
V also made the big decision of his life, and turned into Darth V for twenty minutes. It didn't work out so hot for him.
Further, take Redcloak: a traumatic event changed his entire outlook and from a humble little acolyte he became the leader of a terrorist organization. Other traumatic events further modified this outlook and he became ever more dangerous – as well as more of a problem for everyone else.

[Vrock Bait]

Is it just me, or is it possible that Jirix is the Supreme Leader, and purposely lied to Redcloak and the Goblotopians keep power? The Supreme Leader has been shown to be extremely good at lying in the past.

[understatement]

Is it just me, or is it possible that Jirix is the Supreme Leader, and purposely lied to Redcloak and the Goblotopians keep power? The Supreme Leader has been shown to be extremely good at lying in the past.

Nup. In GDGU,


O-Chul and the Supreme Leader have met and seen each other multiple times.

In the comic main, O-Chul and Jirix have shown zero prior recognition, and O-Chul in fact stabs him straight through the chest. Besides, it doesn't matter if Jirix keeps power or not -- Redcloak still has like 10 levels on him.

[Metastachydium]

In the comic main, O-Chul and Jirix have shown zero prior recognition, and O-Chul in fact stabs him straight through the chest.

No wonder, they all look the same!