Checking I'm not missing something with Barbarian/Bard build

[Rinseng]

Hi,

I have a Barbarian character I'm quite pleased with. Celtic-style Barbarian from a tribe that worships Selune, tribe worships through pagan music and dance etc.

I'm thinking 15 levels of Barbarian (Zealot) and 5 levels Bard. The magic and music is flavoured as a divine gift from Selune. Some advice on the interweb suggests 3 levels of sword bard but occurs to me if I go lvl 5 it hits the font of inspiration and D8 for bardic dice. And I'm not too fussed about missing indomitable might etc.

Thoughts/help on going lvl 3 or lvl 5?

Thanks in advance,

R

[CTurbo]

Go with whatever fits the flavor you're after best. I think Bard 5 is strong because it gives you short rest Inspiration dice. Swords would be fun to add to Barbarian, but Lore would be strong too for Cutting Words.

[RifleAvenger]

As someone who prefers spellcasters, and actually having options besides attacking, I definitely favor getting 5 levels of bard. That grants 3rd level spells, as well as improving Bardic Inspiration by making it refresh on short rests and slightly stronger. It increases your out of combat utility measurably, and gives you a staple bonus action (barbarian's action economy can be a bit lacking on turns after they enter Rage).

However, there are some considerations:


How often does your table actually use short rests? Font of Inspiration is worth it if it's multiplying your uses of inspiration and sword flourishes per day. I don't think it's worth only an average +1 to the inspiration die if your table only long rests.


Rage prevents you from casting or concentrating on spells. Are you ok investing more into your spellcasting when it'll probably be used most often out of combat?


What level are you starting at? Are you ok delaying when you gain certain barbarian abilities? 5 bard levels might be a long time if you have to play from low level, and intend to finish bard before gaining more barbarian levels.


Notably, if you don't rush barbarian to 5 first, it will be a long time before you get Extra Attack. If you rush barbarian to 5 first, you won't finish getting to Bard 5 until 10th level overall. Going to Sword Bard 6 partially solves this, but makes the 5th level of barbarian a dead level. And if you are beginning with 2 levels of Barbarian, only gets you there 2 levels earlier.


Are you ok losing an ASI? Because ending a dip on a level not divisible by 4 will do that.


So I'm in favor, but you'll have to carefully path such a large investment around what matters most to you. How early do you want each class feature? If this is a high level game (~lvl 10+), such concerns are irrelevant.

[Mr Adventurer]

Re: point 5, the last ASI is granted at 19, so you can do a 5 level dip and still get them all. But it does delay you getting them by a level.

[Keravath]

Re: point 5, the last ASI is granted at 19, so you can do a 5 level dip and still get them all. But it does delay you getting them by a level.

Actually, you lose one ASI either way. ASIs are at 16 and 19. A 3 level dip loses the one at 19 while a five level dip gains one ASI at 4 but loses 16 and 19 so the number of ASIs for 3 or 5 level dips is the same but one less than the total possible without the dip which may be the point they were trying to make. On the other hand a 16/4 split does not lose an ASI.

[Mr Adventurer]

Actually, you lose one ASI either way. ASIs are at 16 and 19. A 3 level dip loses the one at 19 while a five level dip gains one ASI at 4 but loses 16 and 19 so the number of ASIs for 3 or 5 level dips is the same but one less than the total possible without the dip which may be the point they were trying to make. On the other hand a 16/4 split does not lose an ASI.

Quite right - turns out I can't count.

[Rinseng]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts - much appreciated.

On you 5 points good sir:

How often does your table actually use short rests? Font of Inspiration is worth it if it's multiplying your uses of inspiration and sword flourishes per day. I don't think it's worth only an average +1 to the inspiration die if your table only long rests.

We do Short Rest when feasible so worthwhile here.

Rage prevents you from casting or concentrating on spells. Are you ok investing more into your spellcasting when it'll probably be used most often out of combat?

Yes - having to think carefully with these. I like the utility out of combat or possibly casting something non-concentration before Raging.

What level are you starting at? Are you ok delaying when you gain certain barbarian abilities? 5 bard levels might be a long time if you have to play from low level, and intend to finish bard before gaining more barbarian levels.

Low level - I'm thinking dip after Barbarian lvl 5. Push to at least Bard 4 for the ASI before thinking about when to get Bard 5. Then back to barbarian.

Notably, if you don't rush barbarian to 5 first, it will be a long time before you get Extra Attack. If you rush barbarian to 5 first, you won't finish getting to Bard 5 until 10th level overall. Going to Sword Bard 6 partially solves this, but makes the 5th level of barbarian a dead level. And if you are beginning with 2 levels of Barbarian, only gets you there 2 levels earlier.

Are you ok losing an ASI? Because ending a dip on a level not divisible by 4 will do that.

Yes I think I can stomach losing an ASI. Not ideal but I figure the Expertise on a couple skills sort of helps here a bit - and the magic and Bardic Inspiration is the pay-off to balance.

Appreciate everyone's input - which has helped and firms me up on pushing to 5 Bard (who doesn't love a song and a dance after 'crushing your enemies and hearing the lamentations of the women'). I lean towards flavour and RP first and foremost but without totally throwing character effectiveness out the way...

[RogueJK]

If you're going Lore Bard 5, it may be worth considering just one more Bard level for Magic Secrets, to pick up something like Mirror Image and either Aid or Armor of Agathys for non-concentration combat buffs.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Something about the combination of Barbarian and College of Eloquence, really, amuses me. The Silver Tongue ability, alone fits the Celtic theme.

Unsettling Words is just a great alternative use of Bardic Inspiration, that you can use while Raging. Giving a penalty equal to the result of the die roll of your Bardic Inspiration die, to a creature's next saving throw, is equal with Cutting Words,
(Arguably, better than Cutting Words).

The subclasses 6th level abilities are very nice as well.

What I like best about College of Eloquence is that the subclass specifically focuses on enhancing your Bardic Inspiration, and your Persuasion and Deception checks.
These bonuses work while Raging.

A Path of the Berserker/ College of Eloquence Bard has some very nice symmetry.

I could see it being fun and effective.