Rogue/ranger build

[adb82]

Hello everyone,
I'm building a rogue/ranger for a campign where we start lv 4. I'm Actually lv 4 ranger with those stat:

STR 11
DEX 18
COS 12
INT 11
WIS 16
CHA 16

Archery style, magic crossbow +1 and crossbow expert as feat.

I still can change this as we are still not playing, so my first doubt it's about put int to 16 instead than Cha for use the arcane tricksters spells later. Is it worth it? Considering that I don't think I'll get so much spells that needs so hight int, or when ill get interesting spells it will be when they are not good anymore for be played,bi suppose I'll mostly okay 1 and 2 lv spells from ranger list. Cha get saving throw from some really nasty spells and monster abilities and it help with social skills. So I'm not sure which I should choose for the higher points.

My second doubt Is about the progression of the build. I saw many people consider go till lv 7 ranger, but i soppose it's better to stay ranger 5/rogueX. Except I'm missing something I don't think ranger gives me so much in lv 6 and 7 while the rogue first 2 lv are really nice and make me get evasion and other roguish abilities progression like sneak attack even faster. And also I have doubting about the feat:

At lv 9 get dex +2 or sharpshooter?
What about get sharpshooter now and leave crossbow expert for lv 9 where sneak attack deal more damage and I really need it enter every round? Considering that I already hit with a +9 and that -5 many times shouldn't affect me so much, considering that it's not so difficult to get advantage...but also considering that get it at lv 9 make it still easier to ignore the -5. What do you think about?

[RogueJK]

There are a several ways to go with Rogue/Ranger crossbow archer multiclasses. But we'll need more info first.

One of the big questions you'll want to consider is whether you want multiple attacks per round, or just one big attack per round like a traditional Rogue. (Keep in mind that you can only Sneak Attack once per turn, though multiple attacks gets you another chance at the Sneak Attack if your first one misses.) Go Ranger 5 or 7/Rogue X for Extra Attack if the former, and Ranger 3 or 4/Rogue X if the latter.

What Ranger subclass are you choosing? That will help determine whether it's worth going all the way to Ranger 7 if you're not stopping at Ranger 3.

Sounds like you've settled on Arcane Trickster for your Rogue subclass, but it may also be worth considering Scout, which meshes nicely with Archer Ranger.

Also, what type of Crossbow are you using? If it's a Light or Heavy Crossbow, Crossbow Master isn't as useful until/unless you get multiple attacks. But if you are using a Hand Crossbow, that's different, because you can take advantage of the Bonus Action Attack. (Which does, however, conflict with your Rogue Cunning Action at times...)

With a Hand Crossbow, or if you're going for Extra Attack at Ranger 5 ASAP, go Crossbow Master first. If you're going for one big attack and using a Light/Heavy Crossbow, go Sharpshooter instead.


Arcane Tricksters are doable with low INT, but it's not ideal. Their spell options are a bit limited as it is, and a decent number of the spells they can take are reliant on Saving Throws. This is even more true for an Archer Arcane Trickster, who won't be able to make as much use of some of the non-INT-dependent AT spells like Mirror Image or Shadow Blade as a melee-focused AT. Therefore, if you do choose Arcane Trickster, I'd put the 16 in INT. This way, you have the option to make use of INT-dependent AT spells like Charm Person, Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Crown of Madness, Hypnotic Pattern, etc. These are especially nice once you get Magical Ambush.

[CTurbo]

What race and Ranger subclass are you? It's hard to answer other questions without knowing.

I would swap Con with Cha and put the 16 in Con.

Yes I would want Sharpshooter at some point either right before or right after getting Dex to 20.

Typically I would go Ranger 5, Rogue 15.

Arcane Trickster or Scout would be my first 2 options for Rogue Subclasses, but Assassin goes very well with Gloom Stalker.

Hunter or Gloom Stalker are the only 2 Ranger subclasses I would consider.

[Stangler]

Straight to level 5 in Ranger is a no brainer as it is a big jump in spells slots, gets level 2 spells, and extra attack.

Sharpshooter is really important to add to the hand crossbow because of range in addition to the other benefits.

Your stats are ridiculously good so you have a lot of multiclassing options. There is nothing wrong with straight rogue after 5 in Ranger. The core of your character is solid with Xbow and SS and Rogue levels will add consistent improvements to DPR.
Other optional dips...

3 in fighter Battlemaster is really good with Ranger or anyone using sharpshooter.
1/2 in Cleric for some more spell variety and their subclass features.
2/3 in War Wizard for the subclass features (initiative and AC/Saves) and some spell options. If you go AT it will take a long time to just get to level 2 spells. If the reason you are going AT is level 1 or 2 spells then just go War Wizard to 2 to 3. This opens up the other Rogue subclasses which all offer something to your character.

[adb82]

Sorry, my fault, I'm hunter and considering get arcane trickster as rigid subclass. Only phb and base manuals allowed.

[RogueJK]

Still need some more answers:
1) Which type of crossbow are you planning to use?
2) Do you want additional attacks?
3) Do you plan on heavily utilizing Cunning Action Hide to gain advantage on your ranged attacks?

Things to consider:

Additional attacks are generally good, since they're another chance to land your Sneak Attack, but if you're planning to be relying on Cunning Action Hide for the "pop out of hiding and shoot with Advantage, then hide again" routine, it lessens the value a little. Hiding only gets you Advantage on the first subsequent attack. You'll need another way to trigger Sneak Attack on subsequent attacks that round, like only attacking enemies within 5 feet of any ally, or setting up tactics with your other party members to use spells and inflict conditions on the enemies to trigger your Advantage (like Blinded, Restrained, etc... But Prone is bad, because it gives you Disadvantage on your ranged attacks.)

Hand Crossbow's Bonus Action attack from Crossbow Master conflicts with Cunning Action Hide. So if going Hand Crossbow you'd also need another way to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks other than Advantage from hiding.

Also, like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Colossus Slayer only applies once per turn. So leaning into Cunning Action Hide to reliably make a single attack with Advantage each round with a Heavy Crossbow + Sharpshooter + Sneak Attack + Colossus Slayer is more viable with this type of Archer than many other types of D&D Archers that really need additional attacks.

And either way, with an Archer Hunter, going to Ranger 7 doesn't get you much. I'd rather have the additional Rogue levels.


So there's basically two ways to go about it:

Option A) The Sniper - "One Shot, One Kill": Start Hunter 3/Rogue 1. Go straight Rogue from here. Take Sharpshooter at Rogue 4 (Level 7), and raise DEX to 20 at Rogue 8 (Level 11). Use a Heavy Crossbow, and starting at Rogue 2 use Cunning Action Hide at the end of every round to gain Advantage on your lone big attack next round. Skip Crossbow Expert altogether, since you won't be making more than 1 attack per round, and if an enemy happens to close to within 5 feet of you then just Bonus Action Disengage to create distance before attacking. You'll hit a little less often, but hit hardest with every one that lands, since you'll basically always have Advantage and be triggering Sneak Attack+Colossus Slayer+Sharpshooter. You'll also be able to attack at very long range if needed (400 feet).

Option B) The Gunslinger - "Spray and Pray": Start Hunter 4. Take Crossbow Expert as your Ranger 4 ASI. Go to Hunter 5 next level for Extra Attack and 2nd level Ranger spells. Then multiclass into Rogue from there, taking Sharpshooter at Rogue 4 (Level 9) and raising Dex to 20 at Rogue 8 (Level 13). Use a Hand Crossbow for up to 3 attacks per round, and rely on other means to trigger Sneak Attack besides Advantage from Hiding, since your Cunning Action will typically be overridden by the Hand Crossbow Bonus Attack. You'll potentially hit a little more often due to the multiple chances, but you won't hit as hard in every round because you won't always have the additional Sneak Attack damage. And you won't always have Advantage on your attacks. However, you can potentially utilize Hunter's Mark to gain up to +3d6 additional damage each round, which could help offset the lack of Sneak Attack in some rounds.

[Stangler]

Sorry, my fault, I'm hunter and considering get arcane trickster as rigid subclass. Only phb and base manuals allowed.

The clear answer is Ranger 5/*AT with SS at level 9. Int only really matters at much higher levels if you are using magical ambusher and hold person or something. Honestly not sure why you are going AT but if you don't think you need INT then don't bother. I like to use deception a lot as a rogue so CHA is a good stat.

[Bobthewizard]

Option A) The Sniper - "One Shot, One Kill"

Option B) The Gunslinger - "Spray and Pray"

I like both of these but my favorite is in between. Use a longbow (if you can change your +1 bow) and swap crossbow expert for sharpshooter. Take Ranger to 5 for the extra attack and then all rogue. This gets you 2-3 chances per round to land your sneak attack but leaves your bonus action free for cunning action.

You'll mostly want to use sharpshooter to increase your range and eliminate the cover from firing into melee but you can try to the -5/+10 on your 2nd and 3rd shots if you already landed your sneak attack.

If you are stuck with a magic crossbow, I'd either go one of RogueJK's above. Option A if your bow is a light or heavy crossbow and Option B if it is a hand crossbow.

[RogueJK]

I like both of these but my favorite is in between. Use a longbow (if you can change your +1 bow) and swap crossbow expert for sharpshooter. Take Ranger to 5 for the extra attack and then all rogue. This gets you 2-3 chances per round to land your sneak attack but leaves your bonus action free for cunning action.

You'll mostly want to use sharpshooter to increase your range and eliminate the cover from firing into melee but you can try to the -5/+10 on your 2nd and 3rd shots

How are you achieving 3 attacks per round with a longbow on a Ranger5/RogueX build?

I guess he could take Horde Breaker instead of Colossus Slayer, and hope to have two enemies directly next to each other. But that won't be as common as attacking an injured enemy, so it's probably less optimal than sticking to Colossus Slayer for the more reliable damage boost.

(Gloomstalker could do it in the first round of combat too, but he doesn't have access to that Ranger subclass.)

[adb82]

Still need some more answers:
1) Which type of crossbow are you planning to use?
2) Do you want additional attacks?
3) Do you plan on heavily utilizing Cunning Action Hide to gain advantage on your ranged attacks?

Things to consider:

Additional attacks are generally good, since they're another chance to land your Sneak Attack, but if you're planning to be relying on Cunning Action Hide for the "pop out of hiding and shoot with Advantage, then hide again" routine, it lessens the value a little. Hiding only gets you Advantage on the first subsequent attack. You'll need another way to trigger Sneak Attack on subsequent attacks that round, like only attacking enemies within 5 feet of any ally, or setting up tactics with your other party members to use spells and inflict conditions on the enemies to trigger your Advantage (like Blinded, Restrained, etc... But Prone is bad, because it gives you Disadvantage on your ranged attacks.)

Hand Crossbow's Bonus Action attack from Crossbow Master conflicts with Cunning Action Hide. So if going Hand Crossbow you'd also need another way to reliably trigger Sneak Attacks other than Advantage from hiding.

Also, like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Colossus Slayer only applies once per turn. So leaning into Cunning Action Hide to reliably make a single attack with Advantage each round with a Heavy Crossbow + Sharpshooter + Sneak Attack + Colossus Slayer is more viable with this type of Archer than many other types of D&D Archers that really need additional attacks.

And either way, with an Archer Hunter, going to Ranger 7 doesn't get you much. I'd rather have the additional Rogue levels.


So there's basically two ways to go about it:

Option A) The Sniper - "One Shot, One Kill": Start Hunter 3/Rogue 1. Go straight Rogue from here. Take Sharpshooter at Rogue 4 (Level 7), and raise DEX to 20 at Rogue 8 (Level 11). Use a Heavy Crossbow, and starting at Rogue 2 use Cunning Action Hide at the end of every round to gain Advantage on your lone big attack next round. Skip Crossbow Expert altogether, since you won't be making more than 1 attack per round, and if an enemy happens to close to within 5 feet of you then just Bonus Action Disengage to create distance before attacking. You'll hit a little less often, but hit hardest with every one that lands, since you'll basically always have Advantage and be triggering Sneak Attack+Colossus Slayer+Sharpshooter. You'll also be able to attack at very long range if needed (400 feet).

Option B) The Gunslinger - "Spray and Pray": Start Hunter 4. Take Crossbow Expert as your Ranger 4 ASI. Go to Hunter 5 next level for Extra Attack and 2nd level Ranger spells. Then multiclass into Rogue from there, taking Sharpshooter at Rogue 4 (Level 9) and raising Dex to 20 at Rogue 8 (Level 13). Use a Hand Crossbow for up to 3 attacks per round, and rely on other means to trigger Sneak Attack besides Advantage from Hiding, since your Cunning Action will typically be overridden by the Hand Crossbow Bonus Attack. You'll potentially hit a little more often due to the multiple chances, but you won't hit as hard in every round because you won't always have the additional Sneak Attack damage. And you won't always have Advantage on your attacks.

Option B looks more what I want, and I was thinking he can hide using his move action if he is enough far from combat and he find a good spot, also I suppose he gets find familiar as spell that give a big help to get advantage and with a paladin and a cleric of life with me we should be enough Tanky to have always someone near some enemy and if he really will need he can anyway choose to give up an attack for use that cunning action. So seem better to get crossbow expert first than sharpshooter later.

Ps I'm actually using an hand crossbow +1 but as we didn't start to play I can ask to make it become a bow if using sharpshooter first it's too much better. I supposed to deal 3 attack as soon as possible while in one I can deal sneak attack + the other damage from rangers subclass features and in others just the dex + the mark + dice, than try get that -5 +10 once I dealed already sneak attack anf that other damage.


I like both of these but my favorite is in between. Use a longbow (if you can change your +1 bow) and swap crossbow expert for sharpshooter. Take Ranger to 5 for the extra attack and then all rogue. This gets you 2-3 chances per round to land your sneak attack but leaves your bonus action free for cunning action.

You'll mostly want to use sharpshooter to increase your range and eliminate the cover from firing into melee but you can try to the -5/+10 on your 2nd and 3rd shots if you already landed your sneak attack.

If you are stuck with a magic crossbow, I'd either go one of RogueJK's above. Option A if your bow is a light or heavy crossbow and Option B if it is a hand crossbow.

That's exactly what I though about leave crossbow expert eventually for later...or don't get it either for instead get a +2 dex at LV 9. While seem this work clearly better as from lv 5 I have anyway 2 chances for turn to deal sneak attack and the hunter's class feature damage, the idea that after lv 9 I can potentially deal 3 attack, 1 with sneak attack + ranger stuff, and 2 with dice + mark +10 +4 dex +1 magic weapon it's also juicy. 😅


The clear answer is Ranger 5/*AT with SS at level 9. Int only really matters at much higher levels if you are using magical ambusher and hold person or something. Honestly not sure why you are going AT but if you don't think you need INT then don't bother. I like to use deception a lot as a rogue so CHA is a good stat.

Yes I think I'll get int as stat at 16, also bcs probably is better also for the character, that from bg is a baron without any money that keep making think people from other city that he is a real boron from a far away land, and he keep having a hight life standards also but all his money come from selling fake documents and pass for the cities. Even his own companions he talk to them like they are his bodyguard and personal priest, and every month he give them the "salary" that casually Is always around the 3rd part of what they earn that time 😅 and he always pay for their food and rooms, bcs he really believe in friendship (also the bg is by dice 😅 funny). So as a noble I think he should know about history, nature and those things, and maybe when I get expertise I can expertise the charisma skills of the rogue so to have many +6/+7 already and work as skill monkey as we are only 3 players.

[RogueJK]

and I was thinking he can hide using his move action if he is enough far from combat and he find a good spot

You can't just automatically hide as part of your movement. And there's no such thing as a Move Action in 5E.

Your Movement in a round can potentially get you to somewhere out of the enemy's line of sight in order to give you the opportunity to attempt to hide, but it takes spending your Action (or Bonus Action with Cunning Action) on the Hide Action in order to actually be hidden.

From the PHB:

Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the “Unseen Attackers and Targets” section.

If you use your Action to take the Attack Action, and then use your Bonus Action for an additional hand crossbow attack from Crossbow Expert, you have no Action/Bonus Action left with which to take the Hide Action that round.

[Edea]

Another side-benefit of AT is that you'll be able to cast find familiar by selecting it as your first 'wild card' spell known; familiars generate Sneak Attack conditions for you, and if an enemy tries to remove them you basically just got them to waste their action/s doing so.

[RogueJK]

Yes. Owls in particular are good at that, since they don't trigger Opportunity Attacks. So they can fly in, use the Help action to give Advantage, and then fly out of reach.

However, like Hide, Help only provides Advantage on the next single attack. So if you miss with that first attack, any subsequent Extra Attack or Bonus Action Crossbow Attack that round will no longer have Advantage.

[Petrocorus]

You should first lay out what you expect your PC to do.
What do you want you PC to be good at?

What do you expect to get out of Ranger?
What do you expect to get out of Rogue?

[CTurbo]

What race are you?

Did you take Horde Breaker or Colossus Slayer?

I would still put a 16 in Con.

Even though it's far more situational than Colossus Slayer, I really like Horde Breaker for archers. It's really not that hard to find two enemies standing next to each other.

If you're planning on hiding a lot, Crossbow Expert may not be for you as mentioned above as you'll want to use your Bonus Action to hide more times than not.

I personally prefer Longbow + Sharpshooter, but Crossbow Expert is a good way to go too with or without Sharpshooter.

Having a 12 Con is not the end of the world, but any seasoned DM is going to find ways to attack you no matter how far in the back you try to stay or how much you hide.

[adb82]

What race are you?

Did you take Horde Breaker or Colossus Slayer?

I would still put a 16 in Con.

Even though it's far more situational than Colossus Slayer, I really like Horde Breaker for archers. It's really not that hard to find two enemies standing next to each other.

If you're planning on hiding a lot, Crossbow Expert may not be for you as mentioned above as you'll want to use your Bonus Action to hide more times than not.

I personally prefer Longbow + Sharpshooter, but Crossbow Expert is a good way to go too with or without Sharpshooter.

Having a 12 Con is not the end of the world, but any seasoned DM is going to find ways to attack you no matter how far in the back you try to stay or how much you hide.

Human variant, I got colossus slayer but I can still change it if I want or if horde it's more useful for this feat. I though to build him with hand crossbow and many attacks but if sharpshooter and bow it's too much better bcs of that free bonus action I can consider it. At low lv that attack it's so strong and after lv 5 even a bit less strong it still deal good damage even without colossus and sneak attack it's still a 1d8 + 5 + 1d6 that it's typically more than 10 and without -5 to hit. The real point is if a paladin and Life cleric give me enough chance to get advantage from turn 2, as in the first turn 90% of times I'll start my turn hided so I'll get advantage from shooting hided.


Yes. Owls in particular are good at that, since they don't trigger Opportunity Attacks. So they can fly in, use the Help action to give Advantage, and then fly out of reach.

However, like Hide, Help only provides Advantage on the next single attack. So if you miss with that first attack, any subsequent Extra Attack or Bonus Action Crossbow Attack that round will no longer have Advantage.

Yes owls is what I normally use, but yes, only one use.


You can't just automatically hide as part of your movement. And there's no such thing as a Move Action in 5E.

Your Movement in a round can potentially get you to somewhere out of the enemy's line of sight in order to give you the opportunity to attempt to hide, but it takes spending your Action (or Bonus Action with Cunning Action) on the Hide Action in order to actually be hidden.

From the PHB:


If you use your Action to take the Attack Action, and then use your Bonus Action for an additional hand crossbow attack from Crossbow Expert, you have no Action/Bonus Action left with which to take the Hide Action that round.

Yep I get it now thanks.

[Zirconia]

I did Ranger 5/Rogue 2 (so far, campaign still going) Variant Human with a longbow and Sharpshooter and it is really effective, especially if it is in a large area or outdoors. This is the UA Ranger, so I can ignore difficult terrain moving, and with Sharpshooter I can stay way behind the party and shoot through the bushes and trees with no penalty. If someone comes after me I can fade back through bushes that will slow them down.

If underground, I stay back in the darkness and shoot foes the party (who carries a light) have engaged with advantage from being "invisible" in the dark. I was able to take Gloomstalker, so that is even more effective, but it should still work well without that.

I thought it was worth going at least one more Ranger level for another favored enemy for something you tend to fight a lot, undead or fiends for example, but admittedly the benefits are a lot greater for the UA ranger.

[adb82]

I did Ranger 5/Rogue 2 (so far, campaign still going) Variant Human with a longbow and Sharpshooter and it is really effective, especially if it is in a large area or outdoors. This is the UA Ranger, so I can ignore difficult terrain moving, and with Sharpshooter I can stay way behind the party and shoot through the bushes and trees with no penalty. If someone comes after me I can fade back through bushes that will slow them down.

If underground, I stay back in the darkness and shoot foes the party (who carries a light) have engaged with advantage from being "invisible" in the dark. I was able to take Gloomstalker, so that is even more effective, but it should still work well without that.

I thought it was worth going at least one more Ranger level for another favored enemy for something you tend to fight a lot, undead or fiends for example, but admittedly the benefits are a lot greater for the UA ranger.

We are planning to buy xanatar guide to everything, I can put inside UA too maybe if the ranger got good improvements 😅

Anyway I'm playing it now and we got lv 7 (we finally didn't start from lv 4) I'm actually ranger 5/rogue 2 with hand crossbow and crossbow expert...with a hand bow +1 I already make 3 attacks with +10 to hit, that's make me think I could even leave 16 to dex and get 18 dex at LV 9 character and get sharpshooter Already... but well, I can get it soon so it's not big deal I suppose...and yes it works good also bcs he works also as skill monkey pretty well...do lots of damage, not like a paladin/sorcerer but still deal lots of damage and still more will deal once the snake attack will grow up...and have some very useful spells like pass without trace that with a paladin and and cleric in complete armor in the party it's a lifesaver lol. Thinking to get also couple lv of warrior but I'm not sure it's worth it honestly.

One defect: as already said the bonus action require often to get a decision: cunning action for easier sneak attack, 3rd attack, or move the mark of Hunter to other creature.

[da newt]

You have a decent handle on the various options, and all of them are pretty good so it's hard to go wrong. Rogue Ranger Archer is a nice combo.

My advice will be counter to conventional wisdom, but when I played a Gloom Stalker, Arcane Trickster, Battle Master to lvl 13 (where my campaign fell apart), I found that XBE and handXbow actually caused too many decision issues w/ my Bonus Action - should I attack once more, move Hunter's Mark, or Cunning Action - and this added stress. As a result I decided to swap my hand Xbow for a Heavy Xbow so that I could concentrate on maneuvering.

If I could go back and do it all again from the start, I'd skip XBE and take a longbow. XBE is awesome in the lower levels, but less important as you get into tier 2 and beyond. I'd simplify things to SS and max dex.