Simultaneous Turns. How will it turn out?

[SangoProduction]

I am running a new game, and have heard some vague suggestions in the past...so I'm testing out how a new rule will go. The intention is to cut round times, and potentially create more interactive engagement between players in combat (thus the ...perhaps excessive encouragement of teamwork bonuses).

EXPERIMENTAL: The next 2 players on the initiative track go at the exact same time. You gain 3x the normal teamwork-based bonuses (like flanking) when it involves the other player. This can pull an ally above an otherwise higher initiative enemy.

I want to here any expectations or potential "abuses" I should probably see coming.

The worst case scenario I can see is that someone tries to sneak into having their character move more than they should. But that is much more a player problem than a rule problem.
The more likely scenario is probably just people trying to talk over one another, or even one person effectively squelching the other, if only until they finish explaining their attack.

A best case scenario would probably be where the players play off each other's actions, have enjoyable fluff going on in combat, and I get to effectively halve the number of alterations to enemy sheets (which are major time sinks, I noticed) since I can add up the damage of two players at once.


I'll definitely get back to these forums to discuss the results of my experiment once I've had a session or three.

[sleepyphoenixx]

One abuse i can see is that it allows at least one player to completely dump initiative since he's getting "pulled along" by his faster companions anyway.
Considering how powerful acting first tends to be that's probably going to make combat easier on the party.

As for the tripled teamwork bonuses i think it's both too much and doesn't address the problem.

I already rarely see melee players not flanking when they have the option, even going out of their way to enable it (via summoned monsters for example).
If your players don't do that i think having their enemies demonstrate the effectiveness of the tactic is just as valid and doesn't buff an already good strategy.

Aid Another on the other hand is almost never used in combat because taking your own action is almost certainly going to have a bigger impact than giving your teammate a bonus on his,
no matter if that bonus is +2 or +6. All it does is make out of combat skill checks easier which probably isn't the intention.

There's also the fact that players can already work together if they want to - that's what delaying and readying actions is for.
Again if your players don't use these options i think it's more efficient to let their enemies demonstrate instead of buffing something that doesn't need buffs.

If your intention is to cut round times i've found the best approach to be encouraging them to know what they want to do before their turn comes up,
both by banning distractions like phones and enforcing a time limit.
If you haven't decided what to do in X seconds (20-30 works for my group) you delay, if you don't use it before your next turn comes up you lose it. For summoners and shapeshifters that includes having the relevant statblocks ready.

[zlefin]

Is this for PF or 3.5? I know PF has a whole selection of 'teamwork' feats, if tripled some of those bonuses could be nasty.
Are the bonuses only tripled at their point in the initiative order? and hence not when it's far from them? or tripled at all times as long as they're 'paired up'? It makes a big difference for any defensive bonuses, since those would only be relevant when against an enemy.

Any large bonuses to initiative (eg nerveskitter) can now bring a second player up to that speed, which makes initiative boosts on the fastest-acting player even more valuable.

There's going to be a lot of adjudication as to what counts as a 'teamwork' bonus: Marshal auras? casting buffs on the ally? sneak attack enabled by flanking?

[SangoProduction]

Is this for PF or 3.5? I know PF has a whole selection of 'teamwork' feats, if tripled some of those bonuses could be nasty.
Are the bonuses only tripled at their point in the initiative order? and hence not when it's far from them? or tripled at all times as long as they're 'paired up'? It makes a big difference for any defensive bonuses, since those would only be relevant when against an enemy.

Any large bonuses to initiative (eg nerveskitter) can now bring a second player up to that speed, which makes initiative boosts on the fastest-acting player even more valuable.

There's going to be a lot of adjudication as to what counts as a 'teamwork' bonus: Marshal auras? casting buffs on the ally? sneak attack enabled by flanking?

That's a good point. My idea was that it just amplified any bonuses being applied, with the assumption that said bonuses have their own duration. But yes, the intent was for only things that were granted during that simultaneous turn between the two.

The intended "teamwork bonuses" were the largely mundane things like feats and such, though I fully intended to codify what counted as it came up. But I should definitely make my intentions more clear in the rule. Much appreciated.


One abuse i can see is that it allows at least one player to completely dump initiative since he's getting "pulled along" by his faster companions anyway.
Considering how powerful acting first tends to be that's probably going to make combat easier on the party.

As for the tripled teamwork bonuses i think it's both too much and doesn't address the problem.

I already rarely see melee players not flanking when they have the option, even going out of their way to enable it (via summoned monsters for example).
If your players don't do that i think having their enemies demonstrate the effectiveness of the tactic is just as valid and doesn't buff an already good strategy.

Aid Another on the other hand is almost never used in combat because taking your own action is almost certainly going to have a bigger impact than giving your teammate a bonus on his,
no matter if that bonus is +2 or +6. All it does is make out of combat skill checks easier which probably isn't the intention.

There's also the fact that players can already work together if they want to - that's what delaying and readying actions is for.
Again if your players don't use these options i think it's more efficient to let their enemies demonstrate instead of buffing something that doesn't need buffs.

If your intention is to cut round times i've found the best approach to be encouraging them to know what they want to do before their turn comes up, both by banning distractions like phones and enforcing a time limit.
If you haven't decided what to do in X seconds (20-30 works for my group) you delay, if you don't use it before your next turn comes up you lose it. For summoners and shapeshifters that includes having the relevant statblocks ready.

I definitely saw the low initiative character being better. Although that's only really viable for exactly one character of the party or else they end up pairing with the other low-initiative character. Before considering the 20 sided die, of course. Overall, I found it to be acceptable to allow.

Oh, no. My intention was not to encourage teamwork-type actions (aside from maybe picking up teamwork feats). The intent of the bonuses was more as something to make it seem like they are getting something out of the new simultaneous turns thing, without seeming too out of left field. Probably excessive, and can probably cut back on it after the first couple sessions.

I already enforce time limits and encourage pre-planning turns. Still runs slowly, and ends up with 80% of the table disengaged until it's their turn. So cutting it to 60%, with (hopefully) shorter intervals between turns would seem to be helpful. Book keeping, bonus counting and planning are the major time sinks in my experience. Your suggestion hits on the planning part, where hopefully players are engaged enough to plan their turn when it's not their turn.