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Nekoryon
2020-11-04, 05:43 AM
I have a long time character who plays a very peculiar build into Fochlucan Lyrist, and for it to work I need to be Human. In my heart, he is an Elf, and this is the alternative Elf race I have built for him.
It should be benchmarked against Human and other optimal races, not against core Elves. Let me know what you think about balance and what changes you would suggest. I included Evasion to avoid having to take the Shadow Creature template or others that would go against the concept and give me LA for abilities I do not really need or want.

---Elf
-2 Str +2 Dex
Type: Fey (Elf)
Size: Medium
Senses: Low-light Vision
Defenses: Immunity to sleep effects, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against enchantment effects, Evasion.
Feats: Able Learner, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow).
Skills: An Elf who has 5 skill ranks in Spot, Listen or Search gains a +1 racial bonus in the other two skills (this bonus stacks with itself up to +2). An Elf who merely passes within 5ft of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a search check to notice it as if they were actually looking for it.
Favored Class: Any one martial or spellcasting class.

-Subraces (These ability score modifiers and traits are in addition to the ones presented above)

---Noble Elf Paragon
+2 Str -2 Dex
Defenses: Ageless (Immortal unless slain, immune to effects that alter the subject's age)
Favored Class: Any one martial class.

---Noble Elf Sage
-2 Str -2 Dex +2 Cha and +2 Int or +2 Wis
Defenses: Ageless (Immortal unless slain, immune to effects that alter the subject's age)
Favored Class: Any one spellcasting class.

Edit: some changes to ability scores and skills implemented. Namely corrected a total modifier calculation and modified the way skill bonus is accrued.

noob
2020-11-04, 06:35 AM
I have a long time character who plays a very peculiar build into Fochlucan Lyrist, and for it to work I need to be Human. In my heart, he is an Elf, and this is the alternative Elf race I have built for him.
It should be benchmarked against Human and other optimal races, not against core Elves. Let me know what you think about balance and what changes you would suggest. I included Evasion to avoid having to take the Shadow Creature template or others that would go against the concept and give me LA for abilities I do not really need or want.

---Elf
-2 Str +2 Dex
Type: Fey (Elf)
Size: Medium
Senses: Low-light Vision
Defenses: Immunity to sleep effects, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against enchantment effects, Evasion.
Feats: Able Learner, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow).
Skills: +2 racial bonus on listen, search and spot checks. An Elf who merely passes within 5ft of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a search check to notice it as if they were actually looking for it.
Favored Class: Any one martial or spellcasting class.

-Subraces (These ability score modifiers and traits are in addition to the ones presented above)

---Noble Elf Paragon
+2 Str -2 Dex
Defenses: Ageless (Immortal unless slain, immune to effects that alter the subject's age)
Favored Class: Any one martial class.

---Noble Elf Sage
-2 Str -2 Dex +2 Int +2 Wis +2 Cha
Defenses: Ageless (Immortal unless slain, immune to effects that alter the subject's age)
Favored Class: Any one spellcasting class.

Noble elf sage is la +1 due to the extreme stat bonuses.
+6 to mental stats and able learner and in exchange for only -4 str which does not concern the casters that would take this race.
And evasion on top of that and also those skills boosts that are to the most important skills.

Noble elf paragon might be la 0 although evasion and those skills and able learner are really strong boosts.
Regular elf is probably la +1 due to the boosted dex over noble elf paragon and that set of bonus stuff that is too strong.

I mean the skill boosts + able learner are overkill when placed on top of evasion and the stat boosts of the noble elf sage are just too good.

Also immunity to sleep effects and the +2 to saves against enchantment does not help at making this race be in line with more normal races.

Nekoryon
2020-11-04, 06:43 AM
I could go with LA +1 or just put a "choose any two mental stats" caveat I guess. Or maybe +2 Charisma and choose between Wis and Int.
Edit: will go with the second one.

Caelestion
2020-11-06, 08:35 AM
Apparently two levels of rogue is too much for you, so you've randomly given evasion (for free) to a race whose sub-races both have a racial Dexterity penalty. Don't you think that's inconsistent?

Further, your paragon sub-race effectively has no racial ability modifiers at all - isn't that rather missing the point?

Nekoryon
2020-11-09, 04:17 AM
Apparently two levels of rogue is too much for you, so you've randomly given evasion (for free) to a race whose sub-races both have a racial Dexterity penalty. Don't you think that's inconsistent?

Further, your paragon sub-race effectively has no racial ability modifiers at all - isn't that rather missing the point?

No I do not, I reasoned that their ability to evade blows is more of a supernatural sense of their surroundings than sheer dexterity, as the build I have made the sage for fights using exclusively mental stats to control weapons and AC.
The Paragon sub-race is meant to represent characters in the lore like Lord Durothil or Zaor Moonflower who are described as having height and build similar to the strongest humans rather than your typical frail elven stature. So it was mimiking the stats of humans.

noob
2020-11-09, 05:28 AM
No I do not, I reasoned that their ability to evade blows is more of a supernatural sense of their surroundings than sheer dexterity, as the build I have made the sage for fights using exclusively mental stats to control weapons and AC.
The Paragon sub-race is meant to represent characters in the lore like Lord Durothil or Zaor Moonflower who are described as having height and build similar to the strongest humans rather than your typical frail elven stature. So it was mimiking the stats of humans.

Maybe it should be "evasion(su)" then?

Nekoryon
2020-11-09, 05:51 AM
Maybe it should be "evasion(su)" then?

A very good call, yes, it should be.