Making the most of your WBL

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've been wondering what methods exist to get the most value for your gold.

Assume that infinite gold tricks (Wall of Iron/Salt, Supernatural Wishes etc.) are out, as is a lot of downtime.
Large cities to buy/sell are available, but only in the sense of being able to teleport there every now and then for a shopping trip before getting back to adventuring.

Things i've found so far:
- using Diplomacy to haggle (CAdv) - 10% if you can change the vendors attitude to helpful
- Mercantile Background (PGtF) - 75% of value when selling, 1/month buy something for 75% of price
- self crafting via Dedicated Wright/Unseen Crafter
- getting free wizard spells in normal spellbooks then selling them after you've copied the spells into a Blessed Book
- using cheap one-shot items instead of permanent ones for uncommon situations
- carrying capacity - looting 20 suits of masterwork armor and weapons isn't very exciting but it adds up, you just need a way to transport it all

What other options to save money or improve pay "on the job" am i missing?

[Biggus]

You might find some useful stuff here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1000.0

[Venger]

In addition to the already linked cost reduction handbook:

landlord
target wizards as people to kill and sell scribings of their spellbooks to other wizards rather than dump the whole book at the magic mart. You'll break even in no time.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Pearls of power for repeated greater magic weapon/magic vestment spells are more efficient than buying armour or weapons with higher enhancement bonuses.
UMD can help activate spell trigger/spell completion items that are more efficient than general-use permanent wondrous items.

A pearl of power for greater magic weapon costs 9000 gp. A +2 weapon costs 6000 gp more than a +1 weapon, a +3 weapon costs 16 000 gp more. If your caster level is at least 12 (to hit the +3 bonus), the pearl is much better.
A bead of karma (activated with UMD) can improve the efficiency of the pearl.

In a more elaborate example, a necklace of UMD +10 (10 000 gp) + Persistent Spell (two feats, ~25 000 gp by AEG rules, but I'd just take them) + minor schema of metamagic item (12 000 gp) + staff of swift fly (2250 gp) or wand of swift fly (4500 gp) is cheaper than most continuous flight items (e.g. phoenix cloak for 50 000 gp), assuming you were already using the feats. Because of this sort of thing, Extend and Persist are good picks even on a straight fighter.

[Vizzerdrix]

Shapesand. 34 gp if you craft it yourself and that gives you access to every mundane item with a thought.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Pearls of power for repeated greater magic weapon/magic vestment spells are more efficient than buying armour or weapons with higher enhancement bonuses.
UMD can help activate spell trigger/spell completion items that are more efficient than general-use permanent wondrous items.

A pearl of power for greater magic weapon costs 9000 gp. A +2 weapon costs 6000 gp more than a +1 weapon, a +3 weapon costs 16 000 gp more. If your caster level is at least 12 (to hit the +3 bonus), the pearl is much better.
A bead of karma (activated with UMD) can improve the efficiency of the pearl.
I prefer a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell for that specific purpose instead of PoP, but your point is made.


In a more elaborate example, a necklace of UMD +10 (10 000 gp) + Persistent Spell (two feats, ~25 000 gp by AEG rules, but I'd just take them) + minor schema of metamagic item (12 000 gp) + staff of swift fly (2250 gp) or wand of swift fly (4500 gp) is cheaper than most continuous flight items (e.g. phoenix cloak for 50 000 gp), assuming you were already using the feats. Because of this sort of thing, Extend and Persist are good picks even on a straight fighter.

I don't think i'll ever take metamagic feats on a fighter. Also staffs have a minimum CL of 7.

[sreservoir]

staff of swift fly (2250 gp) or wand of swift fly (4500 gp)

I think you've mixed something up here; a staff by the price guidelines is priced the same as the wand per-charge, and has a minimum CL of 8th, setting the minimum price of a staff containing swift fly at 6000 gp (even setting apart the fact that staffs only come in specific types).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I prefer a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell for that specific purpose instead of PoP, but your point is made.
Yes, those are better, when they work. Pearls of power are a bit more general, in that they work on spells that can't be Chained, like magic vestment.


I think you've mixed something up here; a staff by the price guidelines is priced the same as the wand per-charge, and has a minimum CL of 8th, setting the minimum price of a staff containing swift fly at 6000 gp (even setting apart the fact that staffs only come in specific types).
Right, I mistook the material cost for the final price, so the market price is 4500 gp. But there's no minimum CL for staves. The lowest listed CL is 8 for a staff of charming, but that's just the minimum CL for charm monster as cast by a sorcerer.

[denthor]

In addition to the already linked cost reduction handbook:

landlord
target wizards as people to kill and sell scribings of their spellbooks to other wizards rather than dump the whole book at the magic mart. You'll break even in no time.


That is great thought. You run into alignment issues. Do you want to appear hostile and have 2 or three armed guards? Do you allow someone to take the book who you do not know?

Do you break etiquette and do alignment checks?

If I have a book and am 7th level dimension door and run because I a. I fully intend to return the book I am chaotic and it what character would do?

There are problems how do you overcome them?

[Venger]

That is great thought. You run into alignment issues. Do you want to appear hostile and have 2 or three armed guards? Do you allow someone to take the book who you do not know?

Do you break etiquette and do alignment checks?

If I have a book and am 7th level dimension door and run because I a. I fully intend to return the book I am chaotic and it what character would do?

There are problems how do you overcome them?
What alignment issues would it raise? Victimize wizards who are whatever alignment you normally pick on and there's no issue.

Scribing spells falls under gentleman's agreement, same as you and the gm agree you will not attack the cashier at the magic mart and take all the stuff because it breaks wbl, you're not allowed to attack a friendly wizard who lets you scribe out of his book, so if your gm is not actively trying to ruin the game, he should extend you the same courtesy.

If you try to violate this and steal a friendly wizard's spellbook, your gm should simply say "no" out of character and put a stop to it. If he's conflict-averse and wants to resolve it in-game, he'd be within his rights to have the traps any wizard puts on his spellbook in case it's stolen go off and destroy your character that way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a rapidly escalating cost on high level items, and after a certain point, the cost is rarely worth the effect, in my experience. I'd rather add a bunch of lower and medium effects to a single item, even at a 50% markup, than eat an extra 16,000 gp for another +2 to my Dex, or whatever. And there are a lot of neat and powerful cheap items that are only as cheap as they are because they take up valuable real estate and there are more necessary items that most characters need. That's no longer an issue when you can stack them freely. Plus, waiting a few days to add that 5,000 gp effect to your item is a lot more tolerable than waiting months for a newly crafted 90,000 item.

[sreservoir]

But there's no minimum CL for staves. The lowest listed CL is 8 for a staff of charming, but that's just the minimum CL for charm monster as cast by a sorcerer.


The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

It's in the rules for creating them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's a rapidly escalating cost on high level items, and after a certain point, the cost is rarely worth the effect, in my experience. I'd rather add a bunch of lower and medium effects to a single item, even at a 50% markup, than eat an extra 16,000 gp for another +2 to my Dex, or whatever. And there are a lot of neat and powerful cheap items that are only as cheap as they are because they take up valuable real estate and there are more necessary items that most characters need. That's no longer an issue when you can stack them freely. Plus, waiting a few days to add that 5,000 gp effect to your item is a lot more tolerable than waiting months for a newly crafted 90,000 item.

I'd generally agree with the caveat that primary spellcasters should definitely pay for a +6 item for their casting stat unless they don't use spells with save DCs at all.
Good advice though, thanks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's in the rules for creating them.
Ah, dammit. One more rule I could've done with reading better. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out.

That really forces staves into a specific niche. They're expensive when used for low-level spells (more so than wands or scrolls), they're expensive when containing multiple spells (worse than a collection of scrolls, wands, or staves, depending on the spells and number of uses you need), they're expensive for spells you can cast (because runestaves are much cheaper). I really thought/hoped staves were better than that :smallannoyed:.

To make matters worse, the staff description says: "Staffs have immense utility because they pack so many capabilities into one item and they use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells". The first property is exactly what makes staves so useless: they cost too much because they contain multiple spells (including spells you may not need), and you can easily buy other items (wands, single-spell staves, even scrolls) instead. The second property is hampered by the minimum CL driving up the price: the CL on staves is too low to be useful on its own (i.e. against dispel magic), and completely useless when you're already using your own CL. Realistically, the only time staves are good value is when used on 5th-level spells and up, but why isn't there an equivalent item for low-level spells? Psicrowns have the same problems. Drilbus don't have the minimum ML problem, but they don't allow you to use your own ML, so they're basically crappy staves/more expensive dorjes. Did anyone at WotC ever think this through?

On the other hand, this might be a weird sort of balancing mechanic, making it more expensive for spellcasters to get cheap off-list low-level spells at high caster levels. Then again, it's expensive for spellcasters, but far more expensive for non-casters, so... balance!


Edit: I've been reading around a bit more, and the psicrown rules are crazier than expected.

EPH page 169 lays out the rules for psicrowns, which are essentially staves: use your own ML/save DC, can contain multiple powers, and so on. The minimum ML is 8, and the maximum ML is the minimum ML of the highest-level power + 5. By these rules, you cannot create a psicrown of a first-level power, because your minimum ML (8) would be higher than your maximum ML (6). The first psicrown in the book is of the first-level astral construct power. The crown has a massively illegal ML 18. The greater dominator psicrown doesn't meet the official limit, either, having ML 15 where its maximum allowable ML is 12.

On page 181, there's the standard mechanic for pricing psicrowns that we expect for a staff analogue: spell level * caster level * 375 gp in raw materials, 75% for the second spell, 50% for all other spells. If we read on, however, there is a second mechanism for increasing the ML on a crafted psicrown that is completely different. I quote:

Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the psicrown, you must pay for the psicrown as if the highest-level power is one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want
To create a psicrown of astral construct at ML 18, you need to treat the power as if it is 8.5 levels higher than it really is (yeah, that half level is weird, rounding it down), giving a price of 9 * 18 * 750 = 121 500 gp. The normal rules suggest it's 1 * 18 * 750 = 13 500 gp instead. The actual listed price is 47 250 gp, which suggests they're using an effective power level of 3.5. Or maybe you're supposed to interpret "alternatively" as replacing the usual ML modifier, so the cost is 9 * 8 * 750 = 54 000 gp, which also doesn't fit. What is going on here?

For the greater dominator crown, the prices don't line up either. It's listed at 45 000 gp where it really should be 4*15*750 + 2*15*750*.75 + 1*15*750*.5 = 67 500 gp. As-is, you're only paying for the dominate part of the crown, and you're getting more ML than technically allowed. Or you're treating it as 8th-level power and the price is 8*15*750 for just the dominate and shoots past 90 000, which doesn't match the listed price either.

I mean, pricing guidelines are subject to DM change, I get it, but for psicrowns, you have two guidelines, and neither makes sense. The maximum ML guideline isn't even a pricing thing, and should be a hard limit, but it gets blatantly ignored just a little further down the column...

[Telonius]

Make magic items yourself to bring down the cost by roughly 50%. Get it down by another 10% by making it a custom item that requires 10 ranks in (a skill you have) in order to use it. Bring it down by 30% by making it require (your race and alignment) in order to use it.

(Personally I consider this super-cheesy, but it's right there in the rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations)).

[Jay R]

The method that works better than any other:

Buy or create the kinds of items that your DM approves of. The idea the DM likes always works better than the idea that the DM thinks is cheese.

There is a legal maxim: "Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge."

Similarly, any player knows the base rules. A good player knows the expansion books. A great player knows the DM.

[Bphill561]

In addition to the already linked cost reduction handbook:

landlord
target wizards as people to kill and sell scribings of their spellbooks to other wizards rather than dump the whole book at the magic mart. You'll break even in no time.

Leadership is great at high levels. If you are lucky enough to break into the 19+ level range, leadership keeps dumping xp on your cohort if he is with your or not. Every time you level you can spend the cohorts xp back down to the level 17 cap. At lower levels, there is the web article that made a transference item that lets you put your xp in an item for a crafter to use in making an item. Then you can contribute your own xp to not under level you cohort if he is not maxed out. Cheap item that even works on a fighter if he can get his leadership score high enough. Putting your xp also reduces costs if you have someone in a market make it for you at a price break of 5gp per xp, but you have to wait for crafting time of course.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Landlord as mention is also great, especially if you can move some utility items to wonderous architecture in your fortress. Note, multiple characters can take the feat and add their funds together granted by the feat. Your cohort probably has a feat open or two ;-)

Along the same lines as wonderous architecture, there are rune circles in races of stone. You can convert any magic item into one, you gain the normal benefits while standing in the circle. The smallest diameter, one 5 foot space, costs 1/8 of the normal cost of the item to produce. Again it is very useful for utility things you don't need on the move.

Mix with a tree token and an acorn of far travel at your own risk. (Rune circle, in a wonderous Architecture room, in a epic mythal, with a nice permanent area effect spell, plus a barrier between you and the DM).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd generally agree with the caveat that primary spellcasters should definitely pay for a +6 item for their casting stat unless they don't use spells with save DCs at all.
Good advice though, thanks.Another thing that you may want to consider is finding ways for such compound items to have abilities that compliment each other in interesting ways that are more than the sum of their parts. For example, the metamagic rod rules state that you can only use one rod to add metamagic to a spell, but a single rod with multiple metamagic feats on them it is still just one rod, even if you have several feats you're adding to one spell. And if you add the metamagic rod abilities to a pair of arcanist gloves, so you open your hands chakra and bind them, any spell you cast using them to enhance metamagically can get up to +3 CLs on them.

Here's another example (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432) where you add gloves of the master strategist to a psychoactive skin, and have the shrunken items stored in a kangaroo pouch that is also a handy haversack crossed with an enveloping pit (so a haversack-pouch with three 50' x 10' x 10' spaces in it). That's a lot of storage space for shrunken items.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Make magic items yourself to bring down the cost by roughly 50%. Get it down by another 10% by making it a custom item that requires 10 ranks in (a skill you have) in order to use it. Bring it down by 30% by making it require (your race and alignment) in order to use it.

(Personally I consider this super-cheesy, but it's right there in the rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations)).

Custom items need DM approval, so that one is almost definitely out. Also as i mentioned downtime is very limited, so crafting anything expensive is not really an option.
With that taken into account it's doubtful that any item creation feats beyond Scribe Scroll are worth taking.

You could get around that with a Dedicated Wright, but that's another feat if you don't have an artificer in the party. It's unlikely to happen.


Another thing that you may want to consider is finding ways for such compound items to have abilities that compliment each other in interesting ways that are more than the sum of their parts. For example, the metamagic rod rules state that you can only use one rod to add metamagic to a spell, but a single rod with multiple metamagic feats on them it is still just one rod, even if you have several feats you're adding to one spell. And if you add the metamagic rod abilities to a pair of arcanist gloves, so you open your hands chakra and bind them, any spell you cast using them to enhance metamagically can get up to +3 CLs on them.

Here's another example (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432) where you add gloves of the master strategist to a psychoactive skin, and have the shrunken items stored in a kangaroo pouch that is also a handy haversack crossed with an enveloping pit (so a haversack-pouch with three 50' x 10' x 10' spaces in it). That's a lot of storage space for shrunken items.

A little more cheese than what i'm looking for.
I doubt i'll ever play with a DM who'd allow circumventing metamagic rod restrictions by combining them. I certainly wouldn't allow it myself.

Binding a metamagic rod to your hands for +1 CL is a good one though.

For the psychoactive storage skin i don't really see what i'd need it for.
Anything i need to access in combat generally fits into a standard haversack (or possibly a vest version of one).
I don't really see the need to pay a surcharge for combining them when i could just use the Enveloping Pit as loot storage by itself.
Unless i'm missing something it just sounds like a waste of money to me, which is exactly what i don't want.

[Zombimode]

What other options to save money or improve pay "on the job" am i missing?

If you're living in Faerun, Thay offers a flat 10% price reduction on all their publicy available wares. I think that applies to all magic items up to a price threshold (like 5000 gp or so).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For the psychoactive storage skin i don't really see what i'd need it for.
Anything i need to access in combat generally fits into a standard haversack (or possibly a vest version of one).
I don't really see the need to pay a surcharge for combining them when i could just use the Enveloping Pit as loot storage by itself.
Unless i'm missing something it just sounds like a waste of money to me, which is exactly what i don't want.Is it or is it not a better item than having all of them separately?

I mean, a handy haversack with a total of 15,000 cubic feet of storage, with any nonmagical item of up to 10 cubic feet (including things like solid gold statues, which are typically impossible to carry) being 1/4,000 the original volume and mass? That seems like a good way to strip evil temples bare and a great way to ensure you're getting proper WBL.

It was merely an example of what I'm talking about: multiple items that are better in conjunction than apart. And considering what you get from it, the storage part is pretty cheap.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is it or is it not a better item than having all of them separately?

I mean, a handy haversack with a total of 15,000 cubic feet of storage, with any nonmagical item of up to 10 cubic feet (including things like solid gold statues, which are typically impossible to carry) being 1/4,000 the original volume and mass? That seems like a good way to strip evil temples bare and a great way to ensure you're getting proper WBL.

It was merely an example of what I'm talking about: multiple items that are better in conjunction than apart. And considering what you get from it, the storage part is pretty cheap.
If there were solid gold statues to steal i wouldn't need ways to save or make money, would I? :smallconfused:
Hacking off chunks of something valuable with Mountain Hammer or an adamantine weapon until your bags are full is SoP.
Yes, we're the kind of adventurers who'll steal the bars of your prison cell on our way out. :smalltongue: It's your own fault for getting adamantine.

As for your item combo, cost and availability is a factor you also need to consider.
The cheapest Psychoactive Skin (the psywar-only Skin of the Claw aside) is Chameleon for 18k gp.
That's almost the entirety of level 7 WBL on its own, before you factor in the rest of the combo or other gear needs.

Add the glove (3600gp), Haversack (2000gp) and Enveloping Pit (3600gp) along with a 50% markup for all of them (4600gp) and you're at a total cost of 31800gp, or in other words the vast majority of your level 9th wealth.
But that's disregarding the fact that by level 9 you probably need at least some gear.
Assuming for the sake of discussion that you won't spend more than a third of your WBL on carrying capacity you're not getting it before level 13.

And then there's the issue of finding someone to craft it.
The Enveloping Pit especially is a relic and the MIC is pretty clear on the rules for buying those:

Relics are generally not available for purchase, nor will a character trying to sell one automatically fi nd a buyer. These items
are rarer than other magic items; usually no more than a halfdozen copies of each relic exist.
...
Item descriptions provide market prices for each relic, but a
PC will never fi nd a price tag on a relic. Prices are given for relics
to help the DM design appropriate treasure for the monsters or
NPCs in the campaign.
Even finding a normal one is iffy, but getting one custom-added to your little pocket dimension glove is utopic. It's just not going to happen in 99% of games.

Setting that issue aside most games will be over long before you can afford to buy it. It's a neat theoretical exercise, but it's simply not practical most of the time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a psychoactive skin in CPsi for 3,000 gp. The one in the link was just because the psychoactive skin of proteus is flippin' amazing.

And the enveloping pit in the MIC has specific rules in place for making them. You might not be able to find or buy one, but you can definitely make one.


Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Sanctify Relic, plane shift.
Cost to Create: 1,800 gp, 144 XP, 4 days.

As for cost, it's so much easier to get small enhancements tacked on as you go than one big item, like I said. Feel free to add them when you have a few days here and there.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And the enveloping pit in the MIC has specific rules in place for making them. You might not be able to find or buy one, but you can definitely make one.
I have never seen a character take the Sanctify Relic feat in actual play. I seriously doubt anyone would take it unless it's for rp reasons and those people don't craft optimized custom items.
The MIC also all but spells out that it should have rp requirements even if (or because) the mechanical requirements are easy.
And an item that very few DMs will allow and that you can't get for most of the game if they do is not practical. Which is what i'm looking for here, if that wasn't clear.

Taken together those facts make it a neat theoretical optimization exercise but not really a practical option.
The classic Schroedinger's Adventurer who theoretically has access to all the feats he could conceivably qualify for, all the time he needs to craft and the most permissive DM ever who allows everything and completely waives any and all rp requirements.

Which can be fun, but suffice to say in the vast majority of games those things are not so, which is what makes it theoretical.

Unless i'm playing an optimized full caster in a non-optimized campaign chances are i will never have that kind of gp available for storage capacity until near-epic.
There are simply too many other things on the shopping list before that unless you're way too powerful for your campaign.

I do appreciate your contributions and i certainly don't mind a bit of theorycrafting but in this case it's way beyond the scope of my original question. :smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've never seen anyone take item creation feats that weren't auto-granted by a class (such as Scribe Scroll for most wizards). That doesn't mean crafting doesn't, or can't, or shouldn't, happen. And you can totally craft relics. Just because you've never done it doesn't mean it's not within (and intended by!) the rules.

You might not like the fact that it's a thing, but it's most definitely a thing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've never seen anyone take item creation feats that weren't auto-granted by a class (such as Scribe Scroll for most wizards). That doesn't mean crafting doesn't, or can't, or shouldn't, happen. And you can totally craft relics. Just because you've never done it doesn't mean it's not within (and intended by!) the rules.

You might not like the fact that it's a thing, but it's most definitely a thing.

Fair enough, but my OP mentioned that downtime is limited to shopping trips.
Crafting something that takes more than a month is simply not an option.

And i do see at least Craft Wondrous Item pop up every so often.
I also tend to take Inscribe Rune on all my divine casters if it's allowed because it only takes 10 minutes to use.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

BTW, I make psionic characters that can do Schroedinger's wizard psion without any issues. Linked Power (X + psychic reformation), and I can have any feat or power that I want within a round. I want Sanctify Relic? I can have it available within 1 round.

It's not impossible, and it's not even difficult. Definitely not TO, since it requires one feat and one psionic power (plus another power that you need to link to, but given it's at least 7th level, that's quite likely).

And it's really easy to craft even without much downtime. I can think of several ways to do so, so all it really takes is a bit of effort in getting there, and not even that much of it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

BTW, I make psionic characters that can do Schroedinger's wizard psion without any issues. Linked Power (X + psychic reformation), and I can have any feat or power that I want within a round. I want Sanctify Relic? I can have it available within 1 round.

It's not impossible, and it's not even difficult. Definitely not TO, since it requires one feat and one psionic power (plus another power that you need to link to, but given it's at least 7th level, that's quite likely).
True enough. I didn't consider that when i posted the OP. Assume it (and similar options like retraining or Dark Chaos Shuffle) are not available and feats are set in stone once you take them.
I don't really see what you need Linked Power for though since it only removes action- and pp cost, not the XP cost.


And it's really easy to craft even without much downtime. I can think of several ways to do so, so all it really takes is a bit of effort in getting there, and not even that much of it.
The only thing i'm aware of that works on magic items is a Dedicated Wright and the Quill of Scribing for scrolls. Unseen Crafter and Fabricate only work on mundane gear afaik.
Not counting Leadership/Thrallherd (which are generally banned for being too powerful), Simulacrum/Ice Assassin (can't spend XP since they don't have any) or Planar Binding (heavily regulated because too broken if RAW).
I suppose dominating a crafter could work, but that's heavily dependant on finding one and keeping him long enough to make what we want.

If you know of any options beside those please share.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

True enough. I didn't consider that when i posted the OP. Assume it (and similar options like retraining or Dark Chaos Shuffle) are not available and feats are set in stone once you take them.
I don't really see what you need Linked Power for though since it only removes action- and pp cost, not the XP cost.Remember, it's "Schroedinger's wizard psion." That means you can be anything you want at any time, so long as "any time" is "by your next round." Waiting a significant fraction of an hour to get what you want, while incredibly useful, is no more that than the wizard's ability to prep empty spell slots during the day.

Also, you still pay pp costs, since Linked Power explicitly mentions that the manifesting cost for the second power is the metapsionic cost of Linked Power itself.


The only thing i'm aware of that works on magic items is a Dedicated Wright and the Quill of Scribing for scrolls. Unseen Crafter and Fabricate only work on mundane gear afaik.
Not counting Leadership/Thrallherd (which are generally banned for being too powerful), Simulacrum/Ice Assassin (can't spend XP since they don't have any) or Planar Binding (heavily regulated because too broken if RAW).
I suppose dominating a crafter could work, but that's heavily dependant on finding one and keeping him long enough to make what we want.

If you know of any options beside those please share.Those are some of them, yes, but are by no means all of them.

But of course you won't have any options if you constantly remove them all as you find them. Not that those aren't entirely viable, but if those are too much for you because they let you circumvent crafting times, anything else that circumvents crafting times will also be removed for the exact same reason. It's like banning everything that grants additional actions and then asking how you can take additional actions during a round because you want to be able to do them. Wouldn't they just also be banned as soon as you bring them up?

Devices (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) are nonmagical versions of magical items that can be crafted via fabricate using mundane (albeit expensive) ingredients.

Wish gets you up to +25,000 gp as a standard action, either an item that costs up to that much or additional item abilities that cost up to that much. Limited wish (probably) does something similar for 1,500 gp items. Fast time demiplanes or full planes. Planar bubble (either the spell or the class ability) for a fast time plane. acorn of far travel and a fast time plane. (Un)hallow + time stop or temporal acceleration. Some other type of clone (not as the spell) of yourself or another caster, such as Persistent body outside body or aleax. Duplicating extant items through astral projection or mirrors of opposition (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse). Storing a dedicated wright in a safe space to craft while you adventure (preferably a portable hole or enveloping pit, or maybe back at your home base, and you use teleportation magic or portable gates to start each day's crafting and to collect the finished products. You or a cohort could play a dvati and have one half go adventuring to earn gp and xp while the other half does the crafting to spend it. Or you could cast spells and manifest powers that give you special (usually, but not always magic) items as a result of casting them, such as explosive runes, quintessence, fire shuriken, (psionic) minor/major creation, soul crystal, (Permanencied) greater magic weapon, and so on. Similar results happen if you have access to one of the many planes that are timeless with regards to magic (such as the extremely commonly visited Astral Plane) and use acorn of far travel to count as being on that plane, so all of your spells have infinite durations; very handy when you embed one in a weapon or other item you buff up using spells. Does it matter if your +5 sword of insane power was crafted by a dwarven smith or had a ton of permabuffs on it due to having an acorn embedded in the handle? Even better if the acorn is the result of a device so it works even in an AMF or dead magic zone and cannot be dispelled or disjunctioned. Ancestral Relic. Landlord to funnel money to a magic item that doubles as a stronghold (preferably a portable one that can shapeshift into other types of items so you can add additional item effects to it).

And then there are ways to massively defer costs so items are both vastly cheaper and far quicker to craft. For instance, a +1 morphing/sizing weapon is 1/50 the cost if it's an arrow or sling stone. Continue enhancing it as its own weapon, then use sizing and morphing to turn it into whatever else you want.

And that's just some of them I came up with off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more, if I gave it some thought, or started going back through the books for more stuff.

So, yeah. You have tons of options.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Remember, it's "Schroedinger's wizard psion." That means you can be anything you want at any time, so long as "any time" is "by your next round." Waiting a significant fraction of an hour to get what you want, while incredibly useful, is no more that than the wizard's ability to prep empty spell slots during the day.

Also, you still pay pp costs, since Linked Power explicitly mentions that the manifesting cost for the second power is the metapsionic cost of Linked Power itself.
Manifesting time, right.


But of course you won't have any options if you constantly remove them all as you find them. Not that those aren't entirely viable, but if those are too much for you because they let you circumvent crafting times, anything else that circumvents crafting times will also be removed for the exact same reason. It's like banning everything that grants additional actions and then asking how you can take additional actions during a round because you want to be able to do them. Wouldn't they just also be banned as soon as you bring them up?


You do realize the difference between practical optimization and the stinkiest of stinky cheese, right?
I know the line varies from table to table but some things are so overpowered they practically never appear in an actual game - either out of ignorance or a gentleman's agreement - because using them enables only one kind of game. And Tippyverse isn't everyones cup of tea.

Acorn of Far Travel, Planar Shepherds, time trait abuse, Aleax, Astral Projection item duplication or abusing ammunition pricing are all well-known gamebreakers. Don't even get me started on Ravenloft devices.
I'm aware of those, but they're not what i'm looking for.
Also anything requiring 9th level spells is impractical because as i said most games either don't reach that level or only get there at the very end.

My goal is to find something to stretch WBL that little bit further without simply breaking the entire concept of WBL over your knee.

The dvati bit, the Landlord feat, the casting spells like Fire Shuriken that have permanent durations, that's the kind of stuff i'm looking for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You do realize the difference between practical optimization and the stinkiest of stinky cheese, right?
I know the line varies from table to table but some things are so overpowered they practically never appear in an actual game - either out of ignorance or a gentleman's agreement - because using them enables only one kind of game. And Tippyverse isn't everyones cup of tea.I don't know where your line lies. And two things that might seem broken to one person may be fine for another, or one use might be overpowered for one group while the other is fine, while being the exact opposite for another table. Or they might both be fine. I have no idea what your thoughts on each would be, so I'm giving you what I know and allowing you to make the decision yourself.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't know where your line lies. And two things that might seem broken to one person may be fine for another, or one use might be overpowered for one group while the other is fine, while being the exact opposite for another table. Or they might both be fine. I have no idea what your thoughts on each would be, so I'm giving you what I know and allowing you to make the decision yourself.

Yeah and i'm trying to define it. Think the kind of game where a mundane melee is still somewhat relevant and not just an NPC meatshield? I hope that makes sense.
Not sword & board fighter 20, but something like a well-built ToB character or lockdown build.
The kind of game where you're limiting yourself to let the mundanes feel at least a little useful.:smallwink:

Basically everything where you have to be a T1 caster to not be deadweight for the party is too powerful. And low-mid levels is obviously preferred.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah and i'm trying to define it. Think the kind of game where a mundane melee is still somewhat relevant and not just an NPC meatshield? I hope that makes sense.
Not sword & board fighter 20, but something like a well-built ToB character or lockdown build.
The kind of game where you're limiting yourself to let the mundanes feel at least a little useful.:smallwink:

Basically everything where you have to be a T1 caster to not be deadweight for the party is too powerful. And low-mid levels is obviously preferred.Try using those "broken" means of crafting to craft stuff for the mundanes so they ARE relevant, not just appearing to be so.

Done.