What happens when you permanently True Polymorph a Familiar, Homunculus...etc.

[Clistenes]

I would like to know what happens when you use True Polymorph to permanently change a creature that is under you magical control, like a Familiar, Special Mount, Homunculus, Simulacrum, Magen or Golem.

That is a question that often comes out in forums, but I haven't read an official position from the Sage Advice site or similar... Have I missed something? It seems like something that should have been answered already...

I think there are tons or ways this could happen during a game:

-A Wizard wants their Familiar or Homunculus to act as a valet or butler, so they true polymorph it into an NPC commoner.

-A Wizard wants to hide the fact that he is an spellcaster, so he changes his Homunculus into a pet like a cat, small dog, ferret...etc.

-A Wizard wants to send the Homunculus as a spy/scout, but they fear that they will fail their Stealth check and be spotted, so they change them into an Owl, so they can spy while hiding their true appearance.

-The party is going to go dungeon delving, and the Paladin's Rhino Special Mount is going to be useless, so the party's spellcaster polymorphs it into an Imp who can help scouting.

-A Wizard wants a servant who can speak with visitors, carry messages, do shopping...etc., while hiding the fact that it's a magical creature, so they polymorph the Magen into an NPC humanoid.

-A 17 lvl spellcasting Simulacrum has spent all its spell slots, becoming nearly useless, so the party's spellcaster polymorphs it into an Adult Gold Dragon.

I would like to know if there are official answers to some of those questions anywhere... (thank you very much in advance).

[Keravath]

I don't think there are any answers out there. You listed lots of examples of valid targets for True Polymorph but didn't actually seem to ask any questions.

First, true polymorph is a 9th level spell so can only be used by a 17th level caster or above who actually chooses the spell.

Here is the text of the spell.

"TRUE POLYMORPH
9th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a drop of mercury, a dollop of gum arable, and a wisp of smoke)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent.

Shapechangers aren't affected by this spell. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn't affected by this spell.

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality. The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form, As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knocked unconscious. The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions. The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment."

1) I think all the cases you listed have a creature as a target so they are all valid targets.
2) Only True Polymorph can make the transformation "permanent" - after an hour of concentration. However, keep in mind that it can still be dispelled.
3) The 4th level polymorph spell can be used to temporarily transform creatures into beasts (no other creature type). So a wizard could temporarily transform a homunculous into a cat or other beast for up to an hour using the 4th level polymorph.
4) The KEY part of the spell text is "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality."

It is up to the DM to determine what "personality" means in this context. Is it attitudes? Is it memory? Is it disposition? What does personality mean exactly in the context of this spell.

This may be the "question" you wanted to ask but I don't know of any official answers. Personality and alignment are ALL that a creature retains when polymorphed. It might include memory. It does not include any other abilities of the creature it previously was. For example, a transformed familiar is no longer a familar - it's stat block is entirely replaced. Depending on how the DM rules "personality" it might continue to be subservient to you and follow your orders but since it now also has free will as a completely different creature ... it is up to the DM how that evolves over time. The same is true for Golems and other creatures with a similar nature or any creature created by a caster. They are all valid targets for the spell and would likely start off favorably disposed towards the caster but how it develops is entirely between the DM and the player.

[Clistenes]

I don't think there are any answers out there. You listed lots of examples of valid targets for True Polymorph but didn't actually seem to ask any questions.

I want to know if the spellcaster retains control.

I have read that creatures like Familiars and Special Mounts would remain under control, because the bond isn't a part of the creature's stats, but of the master's class abilities, and the latter remain unchanged...

I have read something similar about the Simulacrum. The master's control isn't a part of the creature's stats...

Homunculus, on the other hand, their telepathic bond is part of their stat block, so, their link to their master may be severed? If that happens, will they go rogue?

Magens have the "Magical Servant" trait... it's part of their entry, but not of their stat block, so, would it be lost, or kept?

I have remembered that Golems can't be polymorphed, so I will remove them from the original post...

[Dork_Forge]

I want to know if the spellcaster retains control.

I have read that creatures like Familiars and Special Mounts would remain under control, because the bond isn't a part of the creature's stats, but of the master's class abilities, and the latter remain unchanged...

I have read something similar about the Simulacrum. The master's control isn't a part of the creature's stats...

Homunculus, on the other hand, their telepathic bond is part of their stat block, so, their link to their master may be severed? If that happens, will they go rogue?

Magens have the "Magical Servant" trait... its part of their entry, but not of their stat block, so, would it be lost, or kept?

I have remembered that Golems can't be polymorphed, so I will remove them from the original post...

I don't there's a clear, RAW, answer for this so it'll be up to your DM what they'd let happen.

Personally as a DM I'd probably treat True Polymorph becoming permanent as the charm period of Awaken ending, the creature is no longer bound to serve you and it's up to how you treated them what the creature's disposition will be.

If this wasn't the case then there's no reason why a caster with access to it wouldn't become ruler of the known realm over time.

[TheUser]

I would like to know what happens when you use True Polymorph to permanently change a creature that is under you magical control, like a Familiar, Special Mount, Homunculus, Simulacrum, Magen or Golem.
...

In case anyone needs a refresher on the true polymorph spell:

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.

The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce the creature’s normal form to 0 hit points, it isn’t knocked unconscious.

The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.

The target’s gear melds into the new form. The creature can’t activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.

If I were making an edcuated guess. The distinctions start and end with the stat block and spell descriptions.

True polymorph is only making alterations to the stat block of the creature (except for its alignment and personality) not the special relationships that the spells like find familiar, create homunculus or simulacrum specify.

So if I true polymorph my simulacrum, nothing about the simulacrum's old stat block states that the simulacrum is destroyed should I cast the spell again, this property falls to the spells description: nothing about casting true polymorph alters that property bestowed upon the creature by the spell. Meaning, no matter what I turn the simulacrum into, it still gets destroyed if I cast Simulacrum again.

Whereas, the fact that the simulacrum is a construct -is- part of its stat block, thus is fundamentally changed by true polymorph and one could argue that the need to spend alchemical ingredients to repair it is derived from that fact. (Not explicit in the spells description; more of inference on my part).

Using this as a rubric for all those other spells like find familiar, would suggest you can still use an action to see through its eyes and hear through its ears, no matter what you transform it into. Etc.

Hope this helps

[Clistenes]

I don't there's a clear, RAW, answer for this so it'll be up to your DM what they'd let happen.

Personally as a DM I'd probably treat True Polymorph becoming permanent as the charm period of Awaken ending, the creature is no longer bound to serve you and it's up to how you treated them what the creature's disposition will be.

If this wasn't the case then there's no reason why a caster with access to it wouldn't become ruler of the known realm over time.

I understand how having an army of Awaken creatures would be game-breaking, but A PC can only have one Familiar, Special Mount, Homunculus and Simulacrum at a time, Magens have an hp cost, and True Polymorph doesn't change the CR of the creature... So the PC would at best have a handful of low level servants plus a high level one (the Simulacrum).

Well, a Necromancer could build a small army of CR 3 creatures by creating Magens and polymorphing them, but they are the only ones who could pull it...

[noob]

Also magens were among the good CR3 creatures I believe so I am not so sure you have things that are so much better it is worth creating one less magen per day.(unless you ran out of gold at which point I understand starting to cast true polymorph on your magens)

[Thunderous Mojo]

I
-A Wizard wants their Familiar or Homunculus to act as a valet or butler, so they true polymorph it into an NPC commoner.


That is a splendidly clever idea. The change in form is permanent, so as long as you don't cast Find Familiar, again ......Asrael the cat, becomes Jeeves the surly.
That is a great NPC henchman character!

A Pact of the Chain Warlock, can transform their Imp Familiar into a Hipogriff, or an Animated Suit of Armor.

[Clistenes]

Also magens were among the good CR3 creatures I believe so I am not so sure you have things that are so much better it is worth creating one less magen per day.(unless you ran out of gold at which point I understand starting to cast true polymorph on your magens)

Well, for starters, you can live in a settlement and people won't notice that you are a creepy Necromancer who lives surrounded by a small army of creepy green-skinned mute dead-eyed living manikins... You can pretend you are a rich man who owns a big house and employs lots of servants...

Second, you can polymorph your Magens into several kinds of NPCs or monsters depending on your needs... Spy? Minstrel? Healer? Acolyte (Cleric)? Druid? Pegasus mount? Imp spy? You can do it!

If you aren't a Necromancer, it is likely that you won't ever create more than a Magen (the hp tax his hurtful to Wizards...), so you can get more value from your inversion by changing that single Magen to become whatever you need it to be.

[Clistenes]

I find it vexing that we don't know how gnomes control their clockwork monsters... Or how Nimblewrights are controlled, for that matter... Are they programmed to obey verbal commands from their creator? Is there some sort of magical link keeping them obedient?

We can't even start to speculate about what can disrupt that control, and that's a pity, because I would love to have a Gnome Wizard True Polymorph a bunch of Oaken Bolters into Master Thiefs and have them ambush a foe... when you kill a Master Thief, you have to start all over again...