Concentration, hex, and witch bolt

[Silpharon]

Simple question, and Google seems to be failing me.

Hex and Witch Bolt both require concentration. Hex adds 1d6 to attack rolls. The initial part of Witch Bolt is an attack roll. If I cast hex, then later cast Witch Bolt, I clearly lose Hex after the spell is cast, but do I still add 1d6 necrotic to the initial Witch Bolt attack?

[Mikal]

No. As soon as you cast another spell with concentration the first is lost.

[Silpharon]

Thanks! I've got a follow-up question, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it. It has to do with recent leaks from Tasha's that I saw on reddit. Is that kosher to ask here or not? Trying to be respectful...

[Tanarii]

Nope. You lose concentration when you cast the second concentration spell.

[Silpharon]

Well, I just noticed the bladesinger thread, so I think this is ok to ask:

Much ado has been given about the new Tasha's Favored Foe for Rangers. On a weapon attack hit, the ranger can concentrate (as if on a spell) and if so gain damage to the attack (and one attack per turn thereafter). There's been discussion that this stacks (during concentration transfer) with other concentration spells like Zephyr Strike - in that case being able to get the bonus force damage AND the Favored Foe mark damage (essentially swapping concentrations), but shouldn't the same rule apply? Why should Zephyr Strike bonus damage be added if concentration is lost when activating Favored Foe?

[x3n0n]

Well, I just noticed the bladesinger thread, so I think this is ok to ask:

Much ado has been given about the new Tasha's Favored Foe for Rangers. On a weapon attack hit, the ranger can concentrate (as if on a spell) and if so gain damage to the attack (and one attack per turn thereafter). There's been discussion that this stacks (during concentration transfer) with other concentration spells like Zephyr Strike - in that case being able to get the bonus force damage AND the Favored Foe mark damage (essentially swapping concentrations), but shouldn't the same rule apply? Why should Zephyr Strike bonus damage be added if concentration is lost when activating Favored Foe?

Oh, cool corner case! I think they're right.

The issue is that (as recently clarified/confirmed) *starting* to cast a concentration spell interrupts your existing concentration. However, the new Favored Foe doesn't require a spell to be cast.

Cast Zephyr Strike, establish concentration
Attack and hit for ZS extra damage, triggering Favored Foe option
Establish concentration on FF, losing concentration on ZS
Deal extra FF damage

Contrast Hex and Witch Bolt:

Concentrate on Hex
Begin casting WB, lose concentration on Hex
Deal damage, but Hex is gone

[Mikal]

Nope even in the follow up as soon as you are concentrating on something new, you lose concentration on what you had before.

So you can get one or the other.

[Silpharon]

Nope even in the follow up as soon as you are concentrating on something new, you lose concentration on what you had before.

So you can get one or the other.

I think the question is whether you can complete the benefits of a spell (Zephyr Strike, Lightning Arrow, etc) before switching concentration. Certainly for Lightning Arrow it would seem silly to shoot the arrow which has turned to lightning, then when it hits you get no benefit because you started Favored Foe. Thematically, the concentration stopped being important when the arrow was released.

[Mikal]

I think the question is whether you can complete the benefits of a spell (Zephyr Strike, Lightning Arrow, etc) before switching concentration. Certainly for Lightning Arrow it would seem silly to shoot the arrow which has turned to lightning, then when it hits you get no benefit because you started Favored Foe. Thematically, the concentration stopped being important when the arrow was released.

Disagree. Your concentration is what makes it happen. As soon as you drop it, then it disappears.

Let’s use your lightning arrow. You hit with it. You want to use favored foe. That lightning arrow, even as it slams into the the foe, instantly transmutes into a standard arrow. They take that damage plus your favored foe damage. That’s it.

It’s not quantum superposition where two waveforms can coexist together. Either A exists or B.

[x3n0n]

Disagree. Your concentration is what makes it happen. As soon as you drop it, then it disappears.

Let’s use your lightning arrow. You hit with it. You want to use favored foe. That lightning arrow, even as it slams into the the foe, instantly transmutes into a standard arrow. They take that damage plus your favored foe damage. That’s it.

It’s not quantum superposition where two waveforms can coexist together. Either A exists or B.

Well, carry that to another spell, like Steel Wind Strike (which is not a damage rider, but itself allows you to make the attack) or an arrow from Swift Quiver.
You hit with the final attack, triggering the Favored Foe option.
If you choose to establish concentration, that can't retroactively make the attack un-happen, can it?

[Mikal]

Well, carry that to another spell, like Steel Wind Strike (which is not a damage rider, but itself allows you to make the attack) or an arrow from Swift Quiver.
You hit with the final attack, triggering the Favored Foe option.
If you choose to establish concentration, that can't retroactively make the attack un-happen, can it?

In that case yes, I’d say that you get all your attacks. Like you said the attack has happened and you hit. Damage hasn’t been triggered so you can now add favored foe damage.

You’re dropping a 5th level ranger spell to do so, which means that I hope you really need FF over the benefit of swift quiver, but RAW and based on how the spell and abilities interact and trigger, you can.

EDIT: actually it’s worse than I thought as a choice. I read the spell more. The ammunition disintegrates when the spell ends.
The spell ends when you trigger favored foe. This the arrow “hits” but disintegrates before it applies damage.

So You hit, but the ammunition disappears. You’ve wasted your last attack, but you can still choose to do it.

Order of operations
1) Cast quiver - concentration 1
2) Attack enemy- hit enemy
3) Favored foe triggered - concentration 2
Optional- 3.1) DM asks “are you sure you want to do that?”
4) Concentration 2 overrides concentration 1
5) Ammunition from quiver disintegrates
6) Damage applied- arrow has been disintegrated, so damage =0
Optional- 7) DM takes pity and let’s you still roll the favored foe damage since you just blew a 5th level ranger spell slot

[x3n0n]

So You hit, but the ammunition disappears. You’ve wasted your last attack, but you can still choose to do it.

I agree that your argumentation is reasonable and compatible with the text I saw online, which says "when you hit with an attack roll".

I do think the fiction is very strange. What is Favored Foe doing?

I agree that this is not the text I've seen, but the fiction would have made more sense to me if it had said "when you deal damage as a result of hitting with an attack roll" (which also corresponds with various intention statements from Jeremy Crawford about things like the interaction between nets and Hunter's Mark: he said that a net attack dealing 0 damage is *not* intended to trigger HM).

Edit: Consider how you'd rule with Zephyr Strike (presumably not retroactively undoing advantage, but eliminating the extra ZS force damage?). That feels like another strange outcome--why does the special super-forceful attack you launched do less damage after you've already launched it?

[Mikal]

Potential flavor for favored foe, and how I’d describe it when dming a game and this was brought up:

Swift quiver: As your concentration on your magic quiver ends, you focus all your enmity on the enemy before you. However, as your mental energy stops controlling the spell your arrow turns into dust before it can pierce past the enemies armor and clothing (or scales, or just skin), causing the attack to do no damage!

Zephyr Strike: as your alacrity allows you to land the strike on your foe, your concentration lapses as you focus your enmity on them! Because of that, your strike doesn’t hit as hard as it would if your attack was still powered by magic, but now you have focused completely on your enemy, so you still hit harder than you would normally.

Edit: and yes, I’d negate the damage but not the advantage. Useful if you wanted to use it against a helmed horror I guess but you can do it.

[Silpharon]

In that case yes, I’d say that you get all your attacks. Like you said the attack has happened and you hit. Damage hasn’t been triggered so you can now add favored foe damage.

You’re dropping a 5th level ranger spell to do so, which means that I hope you really need FF over the benefit of swift quiver, but RAW and based on how the spell and abilities interact and trigger, you can.

EDIT: actually it’s worse than I thought as a choice. I read the spell more. The ammunition disintegrates when the spell ends.
The spell ends when you trigger favored foe. This the arrow “hits” but disintegrates before it applies damage.

So You hit, but the ammunition disappears. You’ve wasted your last attack, but you can still choose to do it.

Order of operations
1) Cast quiver - concentration 1
2) Attack enemy- hit enemy
3) Favored foe triggered - concentration 2
Optional- 3.1) DM asks “are you sure you want to do that?”
4) Concentration 2 overrides concentration 1
5) Ammunition from quiver disintegrates
6) Damage applied- arrow has been disintegrated, so damage =0
Optional- 7) DM takes pity and let’s you still roll the favored foe damage since you just blew a 5th level ranger spell slot

Haha, well at least the logic is consistent, even though that's a quite a mental stretch for something like Lightning Arrow. Can't say I'm surprised though, this is a Ranger issue after all. ;)

[Mikal]

Haha, well at least the logic is consistent, even though that's a quite a mental stretch for something like Lightning Arrow. Can't say I'm surprised though, this is a Ranger issue after all. ;)

I don’t see it as a stretch. Technically speaking you can end concentration at ANY time even without casting another concentration effect.

Say for whatever reason you learn the enemy youre fighting Is lightning immune AFTER you rolled the attack but before you rolled the damage. You can literally, RAW, say “I drop lightning arrow concentration” and the same thing happens.

Precedent is also provided due to the interplay with paladins, warlocks, and their various smites. It’s not a one for one example, but it does have some strong similarities.

[Segev]

While I can see the argument for breaking down the determination of damage such that you do part of the damage while Concentrating on a spell, and then end it to Concentrate on the other ability for the rest of the damage, I tend to view the resolution as...more granular. You apply one or the other; you can't have two Concentration effects from the same caster affect one attack resolution.

I do see the contrary reading, though.