Korra

[Pex]

Finished Book 2

I can firmly say I'm liking it. It doesn't feel like a children's show. I'm being entertained, not lectured. I'm really liking Mako and Bolin. Mako is not the brooding jerk he appeared to be in the first episode. He's heroic. Bolin is definitely the comic relief, but it's just shy of being like Sokka to be the butt monkey of all the jokes. He's competent and gets his share of heroic glory, not just in the Movers.

[Lord Raziere]

Finished Book 2

I can firmly say I'm liking it. It doesn't feel like a children's show. I'm being entertained, not lectured. I'm really liking Mako and Bolin. Mako is not the brooding jerk he appeared to be in the first episode. He's heroic. Bolin is definitely the comic relief, but it's just shy of being like Sokka to be the butt monkey of all the jokes. He's competent and gets his share of heroic glory, not just in the Movers.

Hey you like Book 2? Cool, good on you, that season catches the most hate and flack out of all of Korra and is considered its weakest part. the general consensus I've seen is that it goes up from there. I like it though, because it actually explains how the Avatar and bending thing came to be while keeping it properly mystical while doing so, and providing a reason why the Avatar might be needed in the future: spirits like Vaatu or Hundun might try to mess with things in the future, and Vaatu himself will eventually come back to try and do this all over again

[Peelee]

#TeamBolin

I liked Book 2 until the finale, which was...https://media.tenor.com/images/60277a22f7b488150bd4293592f3e57f
Hated Book 3. Disagree with everyone that the villain was good in any way. I'm a very, very small minority there, so you probably won't feel that way.

[Ramza00]

#Team Bolin as well.

He is a wonderful archetype figure, the archetype of the fool.

But a specific type of fool which has a wonderful piece of slang but I think some people find it offensive so I will not say the name. To describe it though he is gullible because he is pure of heart and optimistic to the point this can make him naive. His greatest gift but also his curse is that he trusts, and he will continue to trust, to have faith in people and the capability of humans to do good. He has your back for he is loyal to the point he is a human personification of a golden retriever.

This slang often is sometimes included with sexual energy. But the energy is not about physical power, but instead power of personality, temperament, will, but will that is not suffocating or oppressive. It is the will that it grants *other* people agency. A society full of people who trust, who are optimistic, who are pure of heart and with kind intent, whose worse flaw is that they are loyal. Well when you are around such people this type of energy has a sexual energy component for it is the *idealized safe man*, and through relationships other people are capable of "transformation."

----

A wonderful compliment to Mako for he is the opposite side of the coin, two brothers who compliment each other perfectly and thus they are fun to watch. :smalltongue:

----

Ramza00 hums 🎶 I need a Hero. 🎶

[Morty]

I like Bolin well enough, but his plotline in Book 2 is... not good. At all. His relationship with Eska is abusive, but played up for a laugh, which I do not appreciate. And the entire mover sub-plot is a colossal waste of time, with its own share of uncomfortable dynamics - this time with Ginger. He gets better later, but I feel like he's often a vessel for the show's mistimed comic relief - are you sure you want to be making jokes when (spoilers) a terrorist is threatening to kill dozens of airbenders, including the girl you're sweet on?

[Ramza00]

Morty there is no better time to make jokes, just as long as you keep your head in the game and you do not distract the rhythm of your co-patriots.
(This of course is an art, getting the timing right, no excess or deficiency, and thus we as the audience find it humorous when the timing is not quite perfect.)

I repeat what others have said, Sokka had a similar energy but his comedic timing was even worse than Bolin.

[Pex]

I like Bolin well enough, but his plotline in Book 2 is... not good. At all. His relationship with Eska is abusive, but played up for a laugh, which I do not appreciate. And the entire mover sub-plot is a colossal waste of time, with its own share of uncomfortable dynamics - this time with Ginger. He gets better later, but I feel like he's often a vessel for the show's mistimed comic relief - are you sure you want to be making jokes when (spoilers) a terrorist is threatening to kill dozens of airbenders, including the girl you're sweet on?

His costume in the Movers is on purpose since he is the Slang Term. When I first saw it I laughed. I should have been bothered by it, especially for those who know my criticisms about The Tomorrow People and the early years of The Flash. However, in this case it worked because it was pomp and cliché as it was meant to be. I was worried at first in Book One when I realized he was the Sokka of the show, but they kept it tame enough everyone in the cast actually likes him instead of just tolerating him because he has to be there.

Sign me up for #TeamBolin

[LibraryOgre]

Working through Book 1, and I wonder... could you Bloodbend yourself, to pre-emptively stop a bloodbender from bloodbending you?

[Ramza00]

Working through Book 1, and I wonder... could you Bloodbend yourself, to pre-emptively stop a bloodbender from bloodbending you?

Isn't that what Katara did in Season 3 of the original show? With Katara vs Hama?

If I recall correctly Hama blood bend Katara and said you should have learn the technique before you turned against me (Hama), then Katara relaxed and canceled the blood bending via breathing, saying something to the effect where she is also a waterbender. Then they water bend traditionally for a while. Then Sokka and Aang show up and Hama blood bend them, only for the conflict to end when Katara bloodbend Hama without learning the precise technique just via intuition and superior waterbending mastery.

So yeah Waterbenders can cancel out weaker bloodbenders just via mastery of waterbending [and using things like their breath to regulate their chi.] Note the stuff in brackets is subtext via observation of a scene, it was never precisely said "textually" via narration / diegesis that is how Katara was able to cancel the bloodbending.

----

Now can Waterbenders fly via just blood bending themselves? We do know they can propel water and make other people be above the ground, can a water bender fly via waterbending an ice disk underneath their feet, Magneto Style? Can they do it with the water inside of their own body?

[Blackhawk748]

Finished Book 2

I can firmly say I'm liking it. It doesn't feel like a children's show. I'm being entertained, not lectured. I'm really liking Mako and Bolin. Mako is not the brooding jerk he appeared to be in the first episode. He's heroic. Bolin is definitely the comic relief, but it's just shy of being like Sokka to be the butt monkey of all the jokes. He's competent and gets his share of heroic glory, not just in the Movers.

Book 2 is... Book 2. The Bolin sup plot with Eska is cringy and has some unfortunate subtext, but there were times where I had a chuckle. The villain is... bad. There are no two ways around it.

But it got us Varrick and that gets it leeway, cuz Varrick is great.

I'm still more annoyed at Book 1 and it's atrocious handling of the Korra/Asami/Mako thing. Like, Korra looks like a terrible person there (cuz she was being a terrible person) and I'm honestly amazed that her and Asami get along as well as they do. It's not a huge deal, but its an entirely unnecessary problem that could have been easily avoided

[LibraryOgre]

I'm still more annoyed at Book 1 and it's atrocious handling of the Korra/Asami/Mako thing. Like, Korra looks like a terrible person there (cuz she was being a terrible person) and I'm honestly amazed that her and Asami get along as well as they do. It's not a huge deal, but its an entirely unnecessary problem that could have been easily avoided

Having dealt with teenage relationships, I can totally see it. Korra is a bull in a china shop. Mako doesn't want to offend either of them, he feels for both of them, and is a ****ing idiot. Asami was hurt (emotionally), but the two of them worked it out (especially, IIRC, after season 2 or 3, where they were pen pals while Korra was recuperating).


And, right now, nothing is more natural than the relationship between Tenzin and his siblings.

[Blackhawk748]

Having dealt with teenage relationships, I can totally see it. Korra is a bull in a china shop. Mako doesn't want to offend either of them, he feels for both of them, and is a ****ing idiot. Asami was hurt (emotionally), but the two of them worked it out (especially, IIRC, after season 2 or 3, where they were pen pals while Korra was recuperating).


And, right now, nothing is more natural than the relationship between Tenzin and his siblings.

Ya, but it far more commonly goes the other way. Asami walked in on Mako "cheating" on her (more accurately, Mako being a deer in the headlights as Korra just grabbed him) and I can honestly see her never talking to him again. Thats an entirely normal reaction.

And then it goes nowhere. Like, Korra and Mako are a thing for what? 8 episodes, where they break up early in Book 2 in one of the dumbest most overly dramatic fights I've ever seen?

Come on writers, you made Korra look like an absolute b**** for pretty much no payoff. Why didn't they just have Asami and Mako split up and then have Korra sweep in? Less drama, but it's still there for playing around with tension, much easier to patch things up, and Korra doesn't look awful. Simple.

[Ramza00]

Some Korra fans I just do not get :smallsigh: Yes Avatar the Last Airbender is better plotted (plus it has some different writers) but that was because it was plan to be at least 3 arcs when it was first pitched. The story was crafted as a multi part epic from the beginning.

1) Korra was originally going to be a miniseries and not a tv show.

2) The miniseries was so popular it got subsequent seasons.

3)Then the writers were scrambling to publish as fast as possible due to their agreement with Nick. Yes some aspects of the writting suffered but it is still a very high quality show. It just does not FLOW like ATLA did.

4) And then after they started getting money and the show was already in production did Nick start backtracking with its promises for they realized the show had good ratings, but not the target age demographic ratings that Nick caters to and how they sell "ads" to a younger audience. Nick wants to know before hand if this is going to be an all girl show, an all boy show, or a mix show. An all boy show or all girl show is prefered for it is easier to sell gendered toys. Likewise when you have teenagers and adults like the show while the existing relationship you have with advertisers is a younger audience you do not get as good of ad rates. Etc, etc. Thus Nick decide to put the episodes on the web for while Korra got good ratings, it did not get useful ratings.

5) Thus even though Season 3 and 4 have better writting than 2 and 1 some aspects of those later seasons suffered such as having a clip show in Season 4. Making TV is hard, especially if there is conflict between the various "layers" of collaboration such as the writers, producers, people who paid for it, and so on.


Rant almost over :smallsigh:

So yeah I do not get some Korra fans that are full of complaints. I guess that is on me, not them.

Yet simultaneously there whole complaint is Korra is not what they wanted. Or they like it but it did not have perfect flow like ATLA did. Well is that on you or the show itself?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/47/13/d247136232d3b462acf73cddcc4bebf0.gif

Remember ATLA had some cringe relationship stuff but we forgive it and find it funny and enduring for the main character is 12, while Korra in Book 1 is 17. Well let me remind you of a secret 17 year olds are bad at dating, bad at many things, yet are hypercompetent at other things to the point they are like younger adults. The being good at A and B while stinking at X, Y, and Z is part of nature of being a teenager, just like 12 to 17 year olds may have weird limb proportions for are in a middle of a growth spurt. Puberty and youth "stink."

And ATLA humor is cringe if the character were not young kids, not just with the relationship stuff. What Toph does at 12 and as a girl (with a blind tomboy persona) would not be as funny if she was instead a male in her 20s. After all Toph was originally going to be a 16 year old muscular boy* who was an earthbender, a foil with Sokka that butted heads in a macho fashion but they writers realized this did not work, and thus they redid several things and we get the wonderful character of Toph.

*The intro design of the earth bender was the original design for Toph per interviews. Aaron Ehasz head writer for ATLA, but not the two show creators Bryan Konietzko-and Mike Dimartino, is the one who suggested making Toph a 12 year old girl. Note Aaron Ehasz did not work with Korra, but has done other fantasy stuff like Netflix's The Dragon Prince.

-----

Now when I say some of the ATLA humor is cringe, I personally find it endearing for humor is a subjective thing. It is a mixture of ingredients and someone can have the same sensory experience but have a different opinion of whether the thing is good or bad.


Sorry if my rant is a little too intense.

[Zevox]

Finished Book 2

I can firmly say I'm liking it. It doesn't feel like a children's show. I'm being entertained, not lectured. I'm really liking Mako and Bolin. Mako is not the brooding jerk he appeared to be in the first episode. He's heroic. Bolin is definitely the comic relief, but it's just shy of being like Sokka to be the butt monkey of all the jokes. He's competent and gets his share of heroic glory, not just in the Movers.
Glad you're enjoying it. If you've liked it so far, you're probably going to wind up quite happy with it overall, as books 1 and 2 are easily and by far the weakest parts of the show (book 1 more so than book 2 IMO, due to pacing problems and the love triangle). It only really found its footing once it got to book 3, IMO, which I consider the best season personally.

Sad that it took that long though, as I bailed on it after book 2 during its original TV run, and didn't return until hearing about the finale made me go "wait, what?", and looking for cursory info about how that had happened made me come across a lot of people saying the show had picked up after book 2, which finally prompted me to watch them.

[Blackhawk748]

1) Korra was originally going to be a miniseries and not a tv show.

2) The miniseries was so popular it got subsequent seasons.

That's a common belief but it isn't actually true. The creators themselves said that they had been slated for 3 seasons from the get go.

[Ramza00]

That's a common belief but it isn't actually true. The creators themselves said that they had been slated for 3 seasons from the get go.

Source?

To my understanding of the production.


2010: Korra is announced at Comic Con. The goal was for a 2011 show and 12 episodes were greenlit. (The original Season 1 miniseries)
During the production of Season 1 they did not hit their goal for 2011 but also during 2011 Nick decided to have 26 episodes now (Season 1 and 2). The miniseries original idea has now become a TV show.
Korra Season 1 aired in 2012 during the months of April to June.
By July 2012 at that Comic Con it was announced that Nick was going to do 52 episodes over a total of 4 books.
Season 2 aired 2013 Sept to Nov, Season 3 aired 2014 with June to August, Season 4 aired 2014 with Oct to Dec.


I am basing this off one of the two show runners own tumblr blog from 2012. Posted within 24 hours of that comic con 2012 that I referenced earlier.

https://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/27078349740/im-sure-this-meme-is-dead-by-now-but-it-still

[Rynjin]

And I'm left here wondering how it matters either way. I don't particularly care WHY the writing is weak and the characters unlikeable, just that they ARE. I didn't care back when Heroes went to **** "because of the writer's strike" back in the day, and I've cared less and less as time goes on. If it's bad, it's bad.

[Ibrinar]

I have to agree there, not about Korra just about the general point that it doesn't really matters to the quality level I perceive why something turned out bad. If I was judging the writers skills sure that matters. And it sucks when quality suffers from outside circumstances but it still suffers. But that something might have been better if not X does not make it better.

There are some cases where such info does change my perception a bit, like weird consorship in things would probably bother me more if I had no idea why it happens. But in general a work is what it is and the backstory how it came to be that way, while interesting, doesn't change much about how good or bad it is.

Edit: Although looking back at the beginning of the tangent Ramza's response was to the author being criticized for something directly, for that it does matter.

[LibraryOgre]

Ya, but it far more commonly goes the other way. Asami walked in on Mako "cheating" on her (more accurately, Mako being a deer in the headlights as Korra just grabbed him) and I can honestly see her never talking to him again. Thats an entirely normal reaction.

And then it goes nowhere. Like, Korra and Mako are a thing for what? 8 episodes, where they break up early in Book 2 in one of the dumbest most overly dramatic fights I've ever seen?

Come on writers, you made Korra look like an absolute bitch for pretty much no payoff. Why didn't they just have Asami and Mako split up and then have Korra sweep in? Less drama, but it's still there for playing around with tension, much easier to patch things up, and Korra doesn't look awful. Simple.

I really see the Korra/Mako fight as being pretty reasonable... they're both trying to do what they think is right and their duty, but they conflict between Mako's desire to work as a cop, and Korra's sense that, as avatar, she should be taking the lead and DOING something. It's compounded by Korra's pretty well documented inability to see anyone else's point of view. They don't really have the option of not talking to each other; their social circles are too entwined (I mean, they pretty much ARE each other's social circle... Asami's lost her mother and father, and seems to have no other friends or peers; Mako has been with no one but Bolin and Korra and series of pro bending teammates who hate him).


You've got three beautiful young people, getting thrown into each other by circumstances, with differing ideas of what needs to be done. Korra wants to be in charge and doing things. Mako wants to be supercop. Asami wants to save her business. All of them are working to help the southern water tribe, but their differing goals and personalities means that they're bouncing off each other.

[Clertar]

I really love Tenzin as a secondary character in this show.

[Peelee]

I really love Tenzin as a secondary character in this show.

My only issue with Tenzin is that he didn't really ask for any pictures of Spider-Man.

[Blackhawk748]

Source?

To my understanding of the production.


2010: Korra is announced at Comic Con. The goal was for a 2011 show and 12 episodes were greenlit. (The original Season 1 miniseries)
During the production of Season 1 they did not hit their goal for 2011 but also during 2011 Nick decided to have 26 episodes now (Season 1 and 2). The miniseries original idea has now become a TV show.
Korra Season 1 aired in 2012 during the months of April to June.
By July 2012 at that Comic Con it was announced that Nick was going to do 52 episodes over a total of 4 books.
Season 2 aired 2013 Sept to Nov, Season 3 aired 2014 with June to August, Season 4 aired 2014 with Oct to Dec.


I am basing this off one of the two show runners own tumblr blog from 2012. Posted within 24 hours of that comic con 2012 that I referenced earlier.

https://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/27078349740/im-sure-this-meme-is-dead-by-now-but-it-still

Right here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytauJfsyCE4) Exact quote at just after a minute:
"Before we even aired Book One, we had already been booked till Book Four"

So ya, they knew.


I really see the Korra/Mako fight as being pretty reasonable... they're both trying to do what they think is right and their duty, but they conflict between Mako's desire to work as a cop, and Korra's sense that, as avatar, she should be taking the lead and DOING something. It's compounded by Korra's pretty well documented inability to see anyone else's point of view. They don't really have the option of not talking to each other; their social circles are too entwined (I mean, they pretty much ARE each other's social circle... Asami's lost her mother and father, and seems to have no other friends or peers; Mako has been with no one but Bolin and Korra and series of pro bending teammates who hate him).


You've got three beautiful young people, getting thrown into each other by circumstances, with differing ideas of what needs to be done. Korra wants to be in charge and doing things. Mako wants to be supercop. Asami wants to save her business. All of them are working to help the southern water tribe, but their differing goals and personalities means that they're bouncing off each other.

She punts a desk across the room (no one comments, and yes I know that was meant for comedy but it really didn't work) and then goes from yelling to it's over in like... 30 seconds. It's so short and then her and Asami go and start doing the Oh hey, we both dated Mako, lets make fun of the things Mako did to bond" which would have been fine if Korra hadn't stole Mako from Asami. Like, I was waiting for Asami to just casually drop that at one point to show how annoyed she still was at Korra, cuz Korra still hadn't apologized.

[LaZodiac]

And I'm left here wondering how it matters either way. I don't particularly care WHY the writing is weak and the characters unlikeable, just that they ARE. I didn't care back when Heroes went to **** "because of the writer's strike" back in the day, and I've cared less and less as time goes on. If it's bad, it's bad.

It matters because, even if it doesn't change your opinion on the show, it's good to at least have an answer why. It at least explains things. Helps you know who to hold at fault for the show getting screwed around coughNickcough.

[LibraryOgre]

My only issue with Tenzin is that he didn't really ask for any pictures of Spider-Man.

Aubrey Plaza as Eska is immensely fun for similar reasons.

[Peelee]

Aubrey Plaza as Eska is immensely fun for similar reasons.

I tend to dislike her, but she was prefect for Eska.

[Sapphire Guard]

Now can Waterbenders fly via just blood bending themselves?

Sounds like a good way to accidentally tear open your blood vessels and bleed to death.

I thought the season one romance was a cut above your standard depictions of teen romance.

Nick extended the show, which led to problems as Korra with the Avatar State is just too powerful to be easily threatened.She didn't really feel in danger again after season 1

However, I thought they missed a golden opportunity for future seasons just by removing the bloodbended powers coming back. A powerless Korra now gets to experience the prejudice against nonbenders firsthand.

I think Korra overall was a step up from Avatar, but it never got back to the heights of season 1.

"We want more episodes" doesn't really qualify for execs screwing around for me. It's the eternal problem with TV. You never know how many series you'll get until well into production.

[Pex]

The Eska thing was a little bother, but what saved it for me is everyone agreeing Eska was totally in the wrong and no one teased Bolin about it. They were trying to convince him to break it off until he finally did. (And then he didn't but Eska changed, a little) It was played straight, not for laughs or at least not butt monkey laughs. The show gave Bolin respect even as Eska didn't.

I liked the love triangle in Book One because it showed Korra was not Miss Perfect Mary Sue. Other aspects of the show in both seasons show she isn't Mary Sue either. That's a good thing. I can like her and root for her without being ordered to. She can make mistakes, fail, and have things be her fault. Her friends get to be the heroes too. They can save her and save the day sometimes. They can be right and she wrong.

[Brother Oni]

Hated Book 3. Disagree with everyone that the villain was good in any way. I'm a very, very small minority there, so you probably won't feel that way.

Really? Season 3 was my favourite, especially the villian. He's got a clear ideology which happens to be at odds with Korra; I don't agree with his ideology or the methods he uses, but he's definitely understandable.

For Korra, they purposely set up all the villians different to ATLA; Aang mostly had his head screwed on straight, but was passive and didn't like confrontation, ergo the best villians to have as a counterpoint were those who challenged him physically.

Korra is much different from Aang - raised in peaceful times (pro bending is a sport, not a combat style :smallannoyed:), hyper confident and well trained, she's aggressive and very physical. In this case, more physically powerful villians wouldn't be interesting as it would just be re-hash of DBZ with them powering up at each other, so most of her villians challenge her ideology and beliefs.
As an example, Amon had a point - organised crime benders were busy terrorising the civilians, so helping them form self defence leagues (or militias by another name) is a perfectly reasonable response.


Morty there is no better time to make jokes, just as long as you keep your head in the game and you do not distract the rhythm of your co-patriots.
(This of course is an art, getting the timing right, no excess or deficiency, and thus we as the audience find it humorous when the timing is not quite perfect.)

I agree with this - black humour has a long tradition, especially in the military, where death, pain and suffering is omnipresent. The spartans were famous for this, from 'that's nice, we'll fight in the shade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dienekes)' to 'If (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon#Later_campaigns_(346%E2%80%93 336_BC))'.

[dancrilis]

Really? Season 3 was my favourite, especially the villian. He's got a clear ideology which happens to be at odds with Korra; I don't agree with his ideology or the methods he uses, but he's definitely understandable.


He was a fine villian and it was a fine season - in my view.

However he was also a fairly poorly designed character from a world narrative prespective.

Effectively he was merely given his abilities (and more importantly his proficency) due to rule of cool - which nobody else in the series (or the previous series) benefits from, yes they unlock powers but only after already effectively being highly proficent beforehand and struggling to gain that proficiency, Zaheer just gets given what he needs to be a rival to anyone he faces without any real work or time on his part to acheive such.

[LaZodiac]

Zaheer was one dead girlfriend away from achieving actual, full on zen void of self. Dude is one of the most spiritually connected people we've seen in the series, I feel like he kinda earned what he gets.

[Blackhawk748]

I liked the love triangle in Book One because it showed Korra was not Miss Perfect Mary Sue. Other aspects of the show in both seasons show she isn't Mary Sue either. That's a good thing. I can like her and root for her without being ordered to. She can make mistakes, fail, and have things be her fault. Her friends get to be the heroes too. They can save her and save the day sometimes. They can be right and she wrong.

I get what you're saying, but I firmly disagree. She faces no consequences for stealing Mako from Asami, except Asami being rightfully upset, and doesn't even really get called out for it. If anything it's something that would actually make her more Mary Sue-ish because she doesn't apologise nor face any issues from acting like a narcissistic jerk.

[Xihirli]

Well, she dates Mako for awhile. That's a pretty awful consequence.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, she dates Mako for awhile. That's a pretty awful consequence.

Considering that's what she wanted? No, no it isnt

[LibraryOgre]

I get what you're saying, but I firmly disagree. She faces no consequences for stealing Mako from Asami, except Asami being rightfully upset, and doesn't even really get called out for it. If anything it's something that would actually make her more Mary Sue-ish because she doesn't apologise nor face any issues from acting like a narcissistic jerk.

I don't know that she really stole Mako... Mako pretty much left Asami on his own. Every time Korra was remotely in trouble, Mako was front and center and trying to be her hero. When she's injured, he's insisting on carrying her. There was a very clear vibe, to me, of "Mako was with Asami, but decided that Korra was more important."

[Razade]

I don't know that she really stole Mako... Mako pretty much left Asami on his own. Every time Korra was remotely in trouble, Mako was front and center and trying to be her hero. When she's injured, he's insisting on carrying her. There was a very clear vibe, to me, of "Mako was with Asami, but decided that Korra was more important."

And then Korra and Asami decided they were more important to each other than Mako.

[Blackhawk748]

And then Korra and Asami decided they were more important to each other than Mako.

It's really sloppy writing all around. I'm convinced that they're just awful at anything resembling romance

[Ramza00]

Hated Book 3. Disagree with everyone that the villain was good in any way. I'm a very, very small minority there, so you probably won't feel that way.

Peele remind me? You watched the show the first time in the last year?

I ask for lots of people’s opinions changed based off recent events with some aspects of the show with Cops and Anarchy. The changes of technology and social media with cell phone camera videos, and the dominance of Facebook and Twitter (a computer selecting content to push to you, and it is curated specifically to what the computer thinks you are and thus there are thousands of different Facebooks) ... has made the beats of Cops and Anarchy aspects of the show feel different in 2012 to 2014 vs 2018 to 2020.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just curious about feedback, for I noticed this with people who are new to the show, or did a recent rewatch of the show due to it coming on Netflix and so on.


I get what you're saying, but I firmly disagree. She faces no consequences for stealing Mako from Asami, except Asami being rightfully upset, and doesn't even really get called out for it. If anything it's something that would actually make her more Mary Sue-ish because she doesn't apologise nor face any issues from acting like a narcissistic jerk.

Well, she dates Mako for awhile. That's a pretty awful consequence.

Considering that's what she wanted? No, no it isnt
So we all agree that dating Mako is a Monkey Paw. 🐒 🐾

What we are disagreeing about if the pain / pathos / experience of dating Mako is severe enough that we derive schadenfreude joy from the experience? Like Korra receiving consequences was only like a 3 out of 10 on the bad scale and some of us rather it be a 7 or 8 out of 10?

Drama that makes us feel things inside of ourselves instead of drama that feels like an annoying fly in the room who grates on our nerves but if we ignore it, the rest of the season is exactly the same?

[GloatingSwine]

And then Korra and Asami decided they were more important to each other than Mako.

Not an unreasonable decision. I have furniture with more personality and charisma than Mako.

[Peelee]

Peele remind me? You watched the show the first time in the last year?

I ask for lots of people’s opinions changed based off recent events with some aspects of the show with Cops and Anarchy. The changes of technology and social media with cell phone camera videos, and the dominance of Facebook and Twitter (a computer selecting content to push to you, and it is curated specifically to what the computer thinks you are and thus there are thousands of different Facebooks) ... has made the beats of Cops and Anarchy aspects of the show feel different in 2012 to 2014 vs 2018 to 2020.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just curious about feedback, for I noticed this with people who are new to the show, or did a recent rewatch of the show due to it coming on Netflix and so on.

I watched it for the first and only time in the last year.
What other people call "spiritual" i call "espouses the philosophy of a teenager going through an edgy phase." He has nothing but pure idealism that ignores how reality would cope with his ideal world and refuses to even consider any other possible world, which wouldn't even be so bad if his idealism didn't resemble that of a child's.

[Blackhawk748]

So we all agree that dating Mako is a Monkey Paw. 🐒 🐾

What we are disagreeing about if the pain / pathos / experience of dating Mako is severe enough that we derive schadenfreude joy from the experience? Like Korra receiving consequences was only like a 3 out of 10 on the bad scale and some of us rather it be a 7 or 8 out of 10?

Drama that makes us feel things inside of ourselves instead of drama that feels like an annoying fly in the room who grates on our nerves but if we ignore it, the rest of the season is exactly the same?

I have no issue with Mako. He's a bit boring, but he's overall fine.

But it's really that last one, it was drama for the sake of drama that went nowhere, gave us no character growth and did pretty much nothing. You could have removed it and nothing would have changed except that Korra and Asami's relationship wouldn't have this weird thing sitting in the background like a malformed chair.

[Ramza00]

Answer Peelee comments


I watched it for the first and only time in the last year.
What other people call "spiritual" i call "espouses the philosophy of a teenager going through an edgy phase." He has nothing but pure idealism that ignores how reality would cope with his ideal world and refuses to even consider any other possible world, which wouldn't even be so bad if his idealism didn't resemble that of a child's.

There is a good essay about Season 2 of The Good Place that I will let people google for it is spoilers of that show and is off topic.

The Other Secret Twist: On the Political Philosophy of The Good Place By Robin James.

In that essay she talks about two different strands of philosophy, ideal theory vs non-ideal theory, aka John Rawls vs Charles Mills. Ideal theory sees this world as a mess and too chaotic and thus tries to remove ourselves from the world entirely as an ideolog-i-cal exercise. It then tries to imagine an ideal society, a utopia, and then back ports that ideology into the real world answering normative questions of how the society operates and says each individual must be like an Angel. A perfect being, a don quixote, and people must do strict-compliance to the ideal for if we all cooperate the society will become The Good Place (known as eu-topia in Greek.)

Charles Mills says this is unworkable for you can not answer normative questions like who is on top of society like a king or queen like that. He points out the people who expertise ideal theory are often people of privilege already with society, or they are quixotic fools who have a personality temperament who practice disavow continuously to deal with realities contradictions (if the world stinks one must disavow our wicked urges and be more like a Boy Scout or Angel in order to rise up to a higher plane of existence.)

Non-ideal theory recognizes we are in a constant stage of flux / change and that transitions can be joyous but can also be disastrous. Transformation is possible but we must know what is currently as the world actually exists as it is now before we can reach for ideals separate from the now.

Thus non-ideal theory critiques ideal theory in 3 areas.
(i) full compliance vs. partial compliance theory; Aka we need a society that can work even if everyone does not follow the rules.
(ii) utopian vs. realistic theory; We need to start with the real as it is now, instead of thinking about the good place and working backwards.
(iii) end‐state vs. transitional theory. Aka do we look at the whole and then find the individual steps from A to Z with A to B in between, or do we start at A to B and then B to C to get to Z.

———


Uncle Iroh : [Draws Fire symbol in the dirt] Fire is the element of power. The people of the Fire Nation have desire and will and the energy and drive to achieve what they want.
Uncle Iroh : [Draws Earth symbol] Earth is the element of substance. The people of the Earth Kingdom are diverse and strong. They are persistent and enduring.
Uncle Iroh : [Draws Air symbol] Air is the element of freedom. The Air Nomads detached themselves from worldly concerns and found peace and freedom. Also, they apparently had pretty good senses of humor.
Uncle Iroh : [Draws Water symbol] Water is the element of change. The people of the Water Tribes are capable of adapting to many things. They have a sense of community and love that holds them together through anything.


Tenzin:Airbending is all about spiral movements. When you meet resistance, you must be able to switch direction at a moment's notice.

Has other people noticed how Zaheer is an air bender who operates like a fire bender? His spiral moments are about power, directing desire, and forcing will.

Air=>Fire=>Earth=>Water=>Air cycle, a reverse avatar cycle compared to Air=>Water=>Earth=>Fire cycle. A red lotus vs a white lotus.

Both direction of the cycle are important, the red lotus cycle critiques the present world, it needs to be taught, for it shows the limitations of the present and how the present can be oppressive and treat humans not like humans but like objects, cogs in a machine. But the red lotus taking to excess can lead to disaster, just like the white lotus is not enough, it is deficient, it is not excellent.

In another philosophical tradition the avatar cycle and the reverse avatar cycle is teaching about Syn-Flow and Contra-Flow. Are we trying to synchronize with the current flow of the world and shape it via synchronization like an air bender and water bender tries to harness existing energy? Or are we trying to provide counter energy, to operate in a contrary direction of the current flow and reform it via destabilizing uniting factors if those factors are being used for wicked ends?

Both energies are needed, but when you start untying Gordon Knots you may activate OOTS snarl energy :smallamused:

[Lord Raziere]

I watched it for the first and only time in the last year.
What other people call "spiritual" i call "espouses the philosophy of a teenager going through an edgy phase." He has nothing but pure idealism that ignores how reality would cope with his ideal world and refuses to even consider any other possible world, which wouldn't even be so bad if his idealism didn't resemble that of a child's.

I don't know, what would the alternative kind of villainy be?

him taking over Earth Kingdom? not exactly within Air Nomad philosophy, which he is very fanatical about. way too Earth-like

I mean he could try not taking but then forcefully trying to convert people to his way of thinking....but thats very Earth-or Fire like. forcing people to do stuff again, is not his goal.

I mean I guess he could've tried to be a Joker or other corrupter type of character who tries to go around manipulating people with guile and set yup scenarios into accepting his philosophy as true by tearing down other peoples philosophies and trying to demonstrate why he thinks all governments are bad and such, but again where does that lead? might be Water-y, to.

thing is though, without Zaheer, the Air Nomads don't have anyone to demonstrate their dark side and they become mary sue pacifists that can do no wrong when everyone else has gotten a turn. So. what would you envision as the "dark side of Air"?

[dancrilis]

So. what would you envision as the "dark side of Air"?

You could go with an isolationist who seeks to claim the ancestoral lands of the air nomads and build up their forces to protect those lands after what happened last time - the only problem is that other people have moved in since Sozin started his campaign to spread civilisation ot the other nations.

This could then be a conflict of whether the nations should be seperate or joined and if historic grievances should be settled over a century after they were caused or should be forgotten and forgiven as history.

[Lord Raziere]

You could go with an isolationist who seeks to claim the ancestoral lands of the air nomads and build up their forces to protect those lands after what happened last time - the only problem is that other people have moved in since Sozin started his campaign to spread civilisation ot the other nations.

This could then be a conflict of whether the nations should be seperate or joined and if historic grievances should be settled over a century after they were caused or should be forgotten and forgiven as history.

I dunno, seems a very "Earth" motivation? Air Nomads never really cared about ancestry, since they're all monks. land, titles, family, wealth,.....these are all material things. transient in Air nomad philosophy and culture, not very important. what does a Air monk care that some people found a new use for that land? after all, everything ends someday, and clearly the old nomads time is done, why try to force them out? They're happy, its all good and its better to find somewhere else that won't cause trouble. that and they're....Nomads. they traveled on bison, they dwelled in whatever temple they ended up, Aang has memories of visiting the Earth and Fire nations before he got frozen. what do borders really mean to a people who are all about flying?

[dancrilis]

I dunno, seems a very "Earth" motivation? Air Nomads never really cared about ancestry, since they're all monks. land, titles, family, wealth,.....these are all material things. transient in Air nomad philosophy and culture, not very important. what does a Air monk care that some people found a new use for that land? after all, everything ends someday, and clearly the old nomads time is done, why try to force them out? They're happy, its all good and its better to find somewhere else that won't cause trouble. that and they're....Nomads. they traveled on bison, they dwelled in whatever temple they ended up, Aang has memories of visiting the Earth and Fire nations before he got frozen. what do borders really mean to a people who are all about flying?

Having 'your' society wiped from the face of the planet could easily have a new airbender not embrace all the old ways.

Essentially your comment 'Air Nomads never really cared ... ' and your comment '... the old nomads time is done' combine to have the new guys not really be like the old guys.

The new guys would be airbenders not air nomads.

[Lord Raziere]

Having 'your' society wiped from the face of the planet could easily have a new airbender not embrace all the old ways.

Essentially your comment 'Air Nomads never really cared ... ' and your comment '... the old nomads time is done' combine to have the new guys not really be like the old guys.

The new guys would be airbenders not air nomads.

Ah, but why would they care about a dead culture or its land then? Its a new age, new way of doing things, why care about whats gone? I'm an Airbender of the future dude! Like duuude, whats with borders anyways? why do have to fight over them? they seem more trouble than they're worth y'know? like man, maybe we shouldn't have them, then people wouldn't try to like declare war over them or anything! walls only keep us apart and make us like bad, dude, why have them? It'd be great.....we could all like, party or something, would have to ask them how to party all together, whichever way the wind blows y'know?!

[dancrilis]

Ah, but why would they care about a dead culture or its land then?

Because that is how historic grivances sometimes work - the living 'associate' with the long dead people and then seek to redress whatever injustice they feel the dead suffered (often with less connection with the dead then 'we have the same magic powers').



Its a new age, new way of doing things, why care about whats gone? I'm an Airbender of the future dude! Like duuude, whats with borders anyways? why do have to fight over them? they seem more trouble than they're worth y'know? like man, maybe we shouldn't have them, then people wouldn't try to like declare war over them or anything! walls only keep us apart and make us like bad, dude, why have them? It'd be great.....we could all like, party or something, would have to ask them how to party all together, whichever way the wind blows y'know?!

That could be another movement but it would likely be harder to make the leader of it a villain risking the balance of the world, and also the answer from the more militant isolationists would be 'they last time we lived in peace and harmony without real defences we were wiped out - so that is a no, first we establish ourselves and our independence then we integrate on our terms (or not if we can be properly self sufficent)'.

[Ramza00]

Because that is how historic grievances sometimes work - the living 'associate' with the long dead people and then seek to redress whatever injustice they feel the dead suffered (often with less connection with the dead then 'we have the same magic powers').

I am going to disagree. You can't merely associate with the past you also have to tell an individual story plus the association or the character will fill hollow, like a puppet, golem, robot, etc.

People who deal with historic grievances are like this.

1) They suffer a personal tragedy, something that should not have occured. Or someone close to them in their personal life, a friend, a family member, a sibling suffered a personal tragedy.
2) They are then radicalized by experiencing the past and they see that their personal suffering is connected to a longer list of personal sufferings that should not have occured.

2 does not happen unless 1 happens. We do not "tolerate injustice" on the first taste of the fruit, not it is several tastings that cause us to have a super-ego persona, a mental habit created by dozens of experiences

(both lived experiences in our own life, but also oral / social / history experiences that we experience via the mental game we call theory of mind, a subtype of empathy, where we experience in our mind mental play and we take on experiences not our own, or experiences from our past or future self which are different than our current experience in this moment. Theory of mind though is not just experiences but also beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspective, values, etc with this mental play.)

Thus from a storytelling perspective you need to do in median res. Start the story in the middle, introduce this new character, and then via narration, flashbacks, chats with other people we learn about what makes this character tick, how they are not just trying to deal with historical grievances they are also haunted by their own demons of the past where they suffered injustice in this beautiful yet ugly world.

[Lord Raziere]

Because that is how historic grivances sometimes work - the living 'associate' with the long dead people and then seek to redress whatever injustice they feel the dead suffered (often with less connection with the dead then 'we have the same magic powers').

That could be another movement but it would likely be harder to make the leader of it a villain risking the balance of the world, and also the answer from the more militant isolationists would be 'they last time we lived in peace and harmony without real defences we were wiped out - so that is a no, first we establish ourselves and our independence then we integrate on our terms (or not if we can be properly self sufficent)'.

1. which is real enduring and possessive for an element and an entire people taught to spiritually let go of attachments and accept what is unexpected. Again, that is a very Earth-like way of thinking.

2. and what about this would be Air exactly? congratulations you made Kuvira but with Airbending. Except making less sense. you've shown Airbenders adopting an Earth philosophy and how that doesn't work, sure, how is that the dark side of AIR?

[dancrilis]

1. which is real enduring and possessive for an element and an entire people taught to spiritually let go of attachments and accept what is unexpected. Again, that is a very Earth-like way of thinking.

2. and what about this would be Air exactly? congratulations you made Kuvira but with Airbending. Except making less sense. you've shown Airbenders adopting an Earth philosophy and how that doesn't work, sure, how is that the dark side of AIR?

Kuvira was to an extent an expansionist rather then an isolationist - you also seem to be somewhat thinking that Air, Water, Earth and Fire are vastly different I don't see them that way.
Amon, Unalaq, Hama and Katara were all waterbenders but they had little more in common with each other then they did with Iroh, Tenzin or Toph.

As such an 'evil' airbender for me would be one who takes from airbender society and twists it to their own purposes, now you can argue that Zaheer did that (and again I didn't mind him) - but he also just did what he intended to do initially air powers or not they had no real impact on who he was or how he saw things.



What other people call "spiritual" i call "espouses the philosophy of a teenager going through an edgy phase." He has nothing but pure idealism that ignores how reality would cope with his ideal world and refuses to even consider any other possible world, which wouldn't even be so bad if his idealism didn't resemble that of a child's.
You might be expecting a bit much from a children's cartoon - your not wrong but I don't see the other seasons as any better with their villians really (although I kindof thought that Kuvira was a step up).

[Lord Raziere]

Kuvira was to an extent an expansionist rather then an isolationist - you also seem to be somewhat thinking that Air, Water, Earth and Fire are vastly different I don't see them that way.
Amon, Unalaq, Hama and Katara were all waterbenders but they had little more in common with each other then they did with Iroh, Tenzin or Toph.

As such an 'evil' airbender for me would be one who takes from airbender society and twists it to their own purposes, now you can argue that Zaheer did that (and again I didn't mind him) - but he also just did what he intended to do initially air powers or not they had no real impact on who he was or how he saw things.

Au contraire, Amon, Unalaq and Tarrlok were all deceptive, manipulative people hiding behind masks, some more literally than others. While Katara used "the lady of the lake" deception to hide her identity while she solved problems at a village the Gaang didn't have time for.

meanwhile Kuvira, Toph, and Lin are all forceful and stubborn people, and Kuvira isn't much different from any other of the Earth conquerors before her.

meanwhile the commonality between Zaheer, Tenzin and any other Airbender is not once did they care about bringing back the Airbender lands. their concern was about making something new and the one time Tenzin tried to "bring back" the culture, it was played as not working in the slightest for comedy. and both Tenzins and Zaheer's solutions involved no borders of any kind.

Zuko, Ozai and Azula were all driven by passion to achieve their goals.

and I don't think you understand the Airbender culture: what is there to twist to ones advantage? Money is only important because of what others value. Power is pointless to pursue for its own sake. Borders are irrelevant when you can fly. rules and attachments are artificial constructs that fade in time. Change is constant. Their entire culture is being happier jedi.

Zaheer is the way he is, because its one of the only ways you can write that sort of thing being villainous, greed? ambition? loved ones? Irrelevant next to spiritual enlightenment. you can't just write any old villain and slap air powers on them. it wouldn't resonate or feel right.

[Ramza00]

meanwhile the commonality between Zaheer, Tenzin and any other Airbender is not once did they care about bringing back the Airbender lands. their concern was about making something new and the one time Tenzin tried to "bring back" the culture, it was played as not working in the slightest for comedy. and both Tenzins and Zaheer's solutions involved no borders of any kind.

Agreed, but let me elaborate. Tenzin fell into his trap for he now had freedom and with freedom there is freedom to fail. He did not know what to do, thus he turns to the things he did know, instead of relaxing, breathing and listening to other voices in the cacophony of ideas.

Tenzin had an existential terror for he is "condemned to be free." Tenzin was thrown into this new normal with airbenders coming back and he thought it was his singular responsibility for everything these new airbenders do. While in reality his 2 siblings were taught everything he was taught and his brother is an airbender. Likewise his 3 kids are just as much airbenders and were taught by the various Air Acolytes that Aang himself taught.

But yeah I liked that episode even though part of it was not fun. It was so much better than ATLA's The Great Divide.

[dancrilis]

and I don't think you understand the Airbender culture


And I don't think you understand my point - I didn't use culture in my discussion I used society and that distinction was not an accident and I used it to refer to someone 'reclaiming' it rather then what it was about.

Effectively if I have you right you think 'those who got air powers are similiar to those who had air powers before them' my take is 'those who got air powers are products of the cultures they grew up in'.

As such we are approaching it from different angles - to me the Air Nomad culture is dead, the Air Nomads are dead, the new airbenders are something new and it is for them to determine but human nature being what it is some would likely decide to identify as the heirs to what went before and try to reclaim it even if they only have vague idea as to what it was about (and that can be a justification for villainy).



But yeah I liked that episode even though part of it was not fun. It was so much better than ATLA's The Great Divide.

Never understood the hatred for the great divide - wasn't great or all that memorable but it wasn't offensive, thought some of the early season 3 episodes were worst cause they seemed oddly paced with how the series had been building.

[Peelee]

Never understood the hatred for the great divide - wasn't great or all that memorable but it wasn't offensive

I understand people's issues with it but don't share that issues. It is the weakest episode of the series for me, but even that is such a high bar that it's not like I'd ever skip it when watching it again. Plus, I like how each side presents their issue, since things aren't always clear - cut, and I actually like Aang's solution.

[Ramza00]

Never understood the hatred for the great divide - wasn't great or all that memorable but it wasn't offensive, thought some of the early season 3 episodes were worst cause they seemed oddly paced with how the series had been building.

If I were to venture an opinion. It obviously felt like a filler episode from the start of it. The meta-plot will not move forward, and we do not get to learn more about our characters in a way that makes us related to them more. It felt like a side quest distraction.

There is a lot of filler in ATLA but when the filler advances something else with us resonating with the characters then it sustains peoples enjoyment of the episode.

-----

Now you can't know a filler episode is going to be good or bad prior to it occuring, yet if you telegraph it is filler at the start of things it is often going to cause people to be more critical for you "primed" them.


I understand people's issues with it but don't share that issues. It is the weakest episode of the series for me, but even that is such a high bar that it's not like I'd ever skip it when watching it again. Plus, I like how each side presents their issue, since things aren't always clear - cut, and I actually like Aang's solution.

Agreed but I bring up The Great Divide for this Tenzin episode and friends may have been a "weak" episode yet I think it performed better with hitting its key beats during the story. Thus it is stronger than the weakest ATLA episode.

(Yes some Season 3 ATLA episodes are true competition for The Great Divide, but peoples opinions will always be different as a matter of taste so what is the "literal" weakest is subjective.)

[Brother Oni]

Zaheer was one dead girlfriend away from achieving actual, full on zen void of self. Dude is one of the most spiritually connected people we've seen in the series, I feel like he kinda earned what he gets.

The Air Bender philosophy has a lot in common with a real world religion. Self realisation and subsequent enlightenment can be just an 'Eureka!' moment away and be blindingly obvious in hindsight.


I watched it for the first and only time in the last year.
What other people call "spiritual" i call "espouses the philosophy of a teenager going through an edgy phase." He has nothing but pure idealism that ignores how reality would cope with his ideal world and refuses to even consider any other possible world, which wouldn't even be so bad if his idealism didn't resemble that of a child's.

I believe you're thinking of Zaheer as a normal rational person, so his motivation and end game seems unrealisitic to you. He's not though - he's a fanatic and faith in his ideology replaces much of what you and I would consider to be normal rational thought.

In the current climate, I don't really need to give examples of how faith in an ideology can otherwise turn a normal functioning person into little more than a propoganda bot.

It should be pointed out that Zaheer undergoes character growth during his time with Tenzin's Air benders - the Zaheer that steps off the cliff to fly is not the same Zaheer that was in prison for 13 years.

[crayzz]

Considering that's what she wanted? No, no it isnt

Getting what you want and having it work out badly for you is a classic karmic consequence.

The order for me goes Three>1st half of One>Four>2nd half of One>Two

Zaheer is an edgy teen philosopher, but that's normal for villain philosophy and for spirituality. AtLA and LoK metaphysics don't care about how sophisticated your philosophy is, so Edgy Teen Villain rising to the top of the food chain for a while makes perfect sense.

[Brother Oni]

Zaheer is an edgy teen philosopher...

I keep on seeing this phrase being used as criticism of Zaheer. Could someone please explain why exactly Zaheer's goal of destroying the ruling elite makes him an edgy teen philosopher?

There's plenty of real world philosophies that have pretty much the same goal, some followers of which have had some massively significant actions and repercussions.

[dancrilis]

I keep on seeing this phrase being used as criticism of Zaheer. Could someone please explain why exactly Zaheer's goal of destroying the ruling elite makes him an edgy teen philosopher?


He never really answers the question of 'how does your plan work' effectively.
Zaheer: I have a great idea - we kill everyone who is bad! it's genius! I can't believe that nobody else ever considered it I must be so smart.
Viewer: I don't think you have really thought this through.
Zaheer: Of course I have I am super smart - what is the problem with it!
Viewer: It will result in anarchy, likely impacting food production due to a raise in bandits which will likely be answered with a tyranny - or tyrannies - in order to impose control and provide safety for farmers who would otherwise be at the mercy of the bandits within an anarchy.
Zaheer: So? We then kill the new bad guys - duh.
Viewer: So you are trading a stable - if imperfect - government where most people are doing fine with for a cycle of anarchy giving way to tyranny needed to end said anarchy which is never allowed to move past that phase into stable government.
Zaheer: You just don't understand my brilliant plan.

If he was actually willing to claim power in order to manage a transition from what he regarded as a tyranny into his ideal form of government (whatever that was) then it would likely be fine - but he wasn't willing to do the work (and it seems that he never even considered the outcomes of his actions).


None of this is unreasonable for a cartoon but it isn't ideal either.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean you can make the same criticism of Ozai:

Ozai: we will kill the entire Earth kingdom with FIRE!
Adviser: But we already conquered Ba-Sing-Se
Ozai: So? they still need to die
Adviser: I don't think you through this through
Ozai: how haven't I?
Adviser: you could gain far more resources and power by beginning the process of overtaking their culture with your own through trade, you'd miss out on brainwashing young Earthbenders to your cause while shoving all the menial jobs onto Earth kingdom slaves or servants, plus burning that much land would cause irreparable damage to the environment and the atmosphere will which turn negatively impact your own empire and its lifespan. you basically shooting yourself in the foot when you've already won.
Ozai: you just don't understand my brilliant plan

or say Zhao....

Zhao: I decided to kill one of the moon spirits!
other Ghost: WHYYYY!?
Zhao: well it was a Waterbender thing so.....it was my enemy and had to die.
other ghost: but that would negatively impact the tides of the ENTIRE WORLD screwing up EVERYTHING!
Zhao: Well I succeeded didn't I?
other ghost: and look where that got you
Zhao: you just don't understand how brilliant my plan was.

Avatar villains, not exactly ones with a lot of foresight, kind of a short-sighted lot.

[crayzz]

I keep on seeing this phrase being used as criticism of Zaheer. Could someone please explain why exactly Zaheer's goal of destroying the ruling elite makes him an edgy teen philosopher?

There's plenty of real world philosophies that have pretty much the same goal, some followers of which have had some massively significant actions and repercussions.

It's not the goal that puts it into edgy teen territory, it's the simplistic thought process, lack of any sort of plan for what comes after, and dismissive attitude to the people his plan will inevitably hurt. That's not necessarily unique to edgy teens, but they are rather famous for it ime.

I still like him. He's a good villain because he's single minded and at peace with the path he's chosen. Those qualities mean he's dangerous, doesn't make many stupid mistakes. And, generally in the AtLA universe, those qualities enable powerful bending, since bending is quasi spiritual and self doubt is tantamount to self sabotage. His philosophy is just utterly unconvincing to me. Which is fine: there's certainly something to be said for sympathetic villains, but it takes talent to write an enjoyable villain who's pants on head wrong about what he's doing, and I appreciate the show for that.


I mean you can make the same criticism of Ozai:

Ozai: we will kill the entire Earth kingdom with FIRE!
Adviser: But we already conquered Ba-Sing-Se
Ozai: So? they still need to die
Adviser: I don't think you through this through
Ozai: how haven't I?
Adviser: you could gain far more resources and power by beginning the process of overtaking their culture with your own through trade, you'd miss out on brainwashing young Earthbenders to your cause while shoving all the menial jobs onto Earth kingdom slaves or servants, plus burning that much land would cause irreparable damage to the environment and the atmosphere will which turn negatively impact your own empire and its lifespan. you basically shooting yourself in the foot when you've already won.
Ozai: you just don't understand my brilliant plan

or say Zhao....

Zhao: I decided to kill one of the moon spirits!
other Ghost: WHYYYY!?
Zhao: well it was a Waterbender thing so.....it was my enemy and had to die.
other ghost: but that would negatively impact the tides of the ENTIRE WORLD screwing up EVERYTHING!
Zhao: Well I succeeded didn't I?
other ghost: and look where that got you
Zhao: you just don't understand how brilliant my plan was.

Avatar villains, not exactly ones with a lot of foresight, kind of a short-sighted lot.

Eh, those were largely failures of tactics, not philosophy. Zaheer's philosophy says the ruling class are bad for reasons, but there's nothing in there about how to build a better world without them. Zaheer was still effectively accomplishing his straight forward goal of enabling anarchy. Ozai was just bad at imperialism, regardless of his philosophy.

Zhao was short sighted, but in the short term his plan wasn't that tactically unsound. Killing the moon spirit took the water bender's powers away, which would have let him win the battle had Iroh not intervened, Yue not sacrificed her life, and Aang not gone full Avatar of Destruction.

[dancrilis]

I mean you can make the same criticism of Ozai:

And I would.

The difference is that Ozai was not portrayed as a deep thinking individual - I was actually more dubious about the fact that it was kindof Azula who proposed it and she was portrayed as being a more clear thinking (but I felt that she was more being flippant rather then proposing 'destroy the continent' as a serious and valid plan).

[LaZodiac]

I mean Zaheer's anarchy's answers to these questions are rather self evident. How do you live without a ruler? You just... do. You live your life as you see fit, and suffer no tyrants. The end. The people who will get hurt in the process are, at least, getting hurt because of their own ability to take care of themselves and not because some idiot with a big hat said "you don't deserve to live". Pain is inevitable in this system but it is at least pain you earned and not pain enforced upon you.

Basically, what comes after his revolution is "whatever you wish".

[Lord Raziere]

And I would.

The difference is that Ozai was not portrayed as a deep thinking individual - I was actually more dubious about the fact that it was kindof Azula who proposed it and she was portrayed as being a more clear thinking (but I felt that she was more being flippant rather then proposing 'destroy the continent' as a serious and valid plan).

Azula?

you mean....the actual edgy teen? raised by an imperialistic philosophy? the one with a lot of mental issues involving her mother? that one? the one who broke down into being a caligulaic mess in the finale? THAT Azula?

Edit: yea Zodi pretty much hit the nail on head: Zaheer is emulating a culture that sees most of what society values as either useless, an illusion or outright harmful to one's own spiritual development. to us society is an important construct we depend on. to Zaheer its a lie we tell ourselves and because of subjectiveness that lie is not considered one because everyone agrees to it-in reality your just obeying a guy because a bunch of made up rules and words made to sound convincing, preserved in symbols on paper and the idea that chaos will ensue if the ruler is taken out, is only true because for some reason people value having a ruler at all, probably because of some leftover pact leader instinct, so much so the idea of "the chaos will happen when they die" becomes "chaos NEEDs to happen" as a self-fulfilling prophecy because people attach so much of their behavior to an outside force telling them what to do.....when you shouldn't be good because of someone else, you should be good because of yourself. society is just the imperfect compromise we accept in the meantime.

If Zaheer killed that earth queen and everyone in the earth kingdom decided to punish Zaheer for it then go back to their lives....he would be the only evil person there. just because Zaheer started the fire doesn't mean others are innocent when they keep it going.

[Peelee]

To sum up my response to all replies to my issues with Zaheer: he's like Amon, but stupid. I liked Amon. I do not like Stupid Amon. I especially do not like Stupid Amon with his Super Special Bender Buddies.

So it stands to reason that I greatly dislike Book 3.

[dancrilis]

Azula?

you mean....the actual edgy teen? raised by an imperialistic philosophy? the one with a lot of mental issues involving her mother? that one? the one who broke down into being a caligulaic mess in the finale? THAT Azula?

At the time she proposed the plan was was fairly calm and rational, and had actually conquered the earth kingdom and had the tools of government on her side - it didn't seem like something she would have bothered with at the time it was proposed, closer to the end of the series sure.
But I see it more as her being flippant about a plan and her father running with the simplest method of following it.

[uncool]

Eh, those were largely failures of tactics, not philosophy. [..] Ozai was just bad at imperialism, regardless of his philosophy.

Zhao was short sighted, but in the short term his plan wasn't that tactically unsound. Killing the moon spirit took the water bender's powers away, which would have let him win the battle had Iroh not intervened, Yue not sacrificed her life, and Aang not gone full Avatar of Destruction.
That is a failure of philosophy, but a deliberate one from a storytelling perspective. The show consistently demonstrates that the worst aspects of a philosophy based on fire are the aspects of consumption, of exhaustion of resources (and of seeing everything as a resource), of advantage in the moment over gain in the future. Ozai doesn't want to rule over a prosperous empire, though he's not averse to it; his aim is to dominate an empire, prosperous or not.

Hence Iroh's "AND THEN WHAT!?" being the turning point for Zuko.

[Lord Raziere]

That is a failure of philosophy, but a deliberate one from a storytelling perspective. The show consistently demonstrates that the worst aspects of a philosophy based on fire are the aspects of consumption, of exhaustion of resources (and of seeing everything as a resource), of advantage in the moment over gain in the future. Ozai doesn't want to rule over a prosperous empire, though he's not averse to it; his aim is to dominate an empire, prosperous or not.

Hence Iroh's "AND THEN WHAT!?" being the turning point for Zuko.

Exactly. Air in some respects is a momentary gust of wind and thus is showing the worst aspect of a philosophy based on Air, because if we didn't get that, we wouldn't have that portrayed at all and that would be quite a loss, as then the air Nomads would just be some dead perfect culture that could do no wrong. we needed this to make sure their philosophy doesn't just solve everything.

[uncool]

Exactly. Air in some respects is a momentary gust of wind and thus is showing the worst aspect of a philosophy based on Air, because if we didn't get that, we wouldn't have that portrayed at all and that would be quite a loss, as then the air Nomads would just be some dead perfect culture that could do no wrong. we needed this to make sure their philosophy doesn't just solve everything.

I honestly don't think the show did a good job of having Zaheer demonstrate the worst aspects of a philosophy based on air.

Air, in its most terrifying form, is a hurricane*, destroying connections, uprooting structures, and turning anything not nailed down into a weapon against anything that is. An air nomad villain should be one that doesn't just drop earthly attachments, but demands that others do, too. In my opinion, Zaheer does this at most superficially - his anarchism is shallow. If anything, Amon, pre-twist, fits that better.

* technically, a hurricane would be a combination of the worst aspects of air and water; a tornado may be a better example, but doesn't reach the same scale - so perhaps a better villain would be an airbender/waterbender pair

[Brother Oni]

If he was actually willing to claim power in order to manage a transition from what he regarded as a tyranny into his ideal form of government (whatever that was) then it would likely be fine - but he wasn't willing to do the work (and it seems that he never even considered the outcomes of his actions).

Except he's an anarchist, as in a true blue, dyed in the wool, reject authority and any form of involuntary cohersive hierarchy one. As La Zodiac said, destroying the ruling elite and letting people just live is his goal - what they do afterwards is up to them, but they're free to make the choice themselves. In his eyes, if the people want to move to a representative republic or any other form of voluntary government, then they're free to do so - Zaheer telling them to transition to a representative republic or another stable form of government, defeats the point of him giving the people the freedom to choose what they want to do.

In any case, it's hard to argue that a hereditary monarchial rule was great for the common people in the long run - you only have to look at Chinese history to see how dynasties fell to get an idea of how corrupt they become.


I honestly don't think the show did a good job of having Zaheer demonstrate the worst aspects of a philosophy based on air.

Air, in its most terrifying form, is a hurricane*, destroying connections, uprooting structures, and turning anything not nailed down into a weapon against anything that is. An air nomad villain should be one that doesn't just drop earthly attachments, but demands that others do, too. In my opinion, Zaheer does this at most superficially - his anarchism is shallow. If anything, Amon, pre-twist, fits that better.

Air could also be expressed as pure freedom, the ability to take any form and do whatever you like (which ties in nicely with the anarchist philosophy). It's even more free than water, which still has to conform to the shape of its container.

It's why I like Zaheer as a villian - he believes that he's doing this for good of the people, not to oppress or rule over them, like all the other antagonists. Severing all earthly ties* is something he comes to realise when studying with the Air Nomads (an example of villian character growth), but the irony is, when he severs his earthly ties and reaches a form of enlightenment, he also knows that he can't impose that on others (as it means that he's concerned about people, ie earthly ties).

Stopping the Avatar cycle is still a goal, as he has to show the way for other people, but in Season 4, he realises he's wrong and makes amends. There's a Buddhist koan that's quite apt for post enlightenment Zaheer, but I can't state it on this forum.


*Incidentally, it's something that Aang isn't capable of doing himself as he realises that he doesn't want to.

[Sapphire Guard]

Airbending Philosophy isn't quite so unattached as that.

Aang is notably extremely upset whenever their culture is disrespected, by refugees living in his sacred places or by fangirls using the tattoos of airbending mastery as their club membership.

Honestly, the Tenzin plotline is kind of odd. He's one of the last survivors of an exterminated people trying desperately to hold on to what's left... and it's played for laughs? Eh? I mean, it's obviously unworkable, but it's not like it's his idle whim.

[LaZodiac]

Airbending Philosophy isn't quite so unattached as that.

Aang is notably extremely upset whenever their culture is disrespected, by refugees living in his sacred places or by fangirls using the tattoos of airbending mastery as their club membership.

Honestly, the Tenzin plotline is kind of odd. He's one of the last survivors of an exterminated people trying desperately to hold on to what's left... and it's played for laughs? Eh? I mean, it's obviously unworkable, but it's not like it's his idle whim.

I love Tenzin's plotline for that exact reason. There's a LOT to be said about the fact that because of Aang's completely understandable respect for his ancient culture, he kinda ended up hurting his children. Tenzin is pushing that hurt forward with the way he acts- and by being such a stick in the mud, he's actually doing more harm than good in the name OF that culture. Would Aang's mentor look at Tenzin's strict, grounded teachings as properly Air? That's unlikely. Tenzin's behavior being played for laughs is what actual Air Nomads would have done to him if they were around, and that's kind of why it is beautiful.

It really speaks to both the good and bad of Air, something that Aang's story never GOT to touch on.

[Peelee]

I never actually got why Aang's tattoos glowed in the Avatar state. It'd be like Kyoshi's makeup glowing. It's something humans decorated their body with.

Imean, I get why they did it from a Doylistic perspective but not from a Watsonian perspective.

[LaZodiac]

I never actually got why Aang's tattoos glowed in the Avatar state. It'd be like Kyoshi's makeup glowing. It's something humans decorated their body with.

Imean, I get why they did it from a Doylistic perspective but not from a Watsonian perspective.

In universe the tattoos are of spiritual significance to the Air Nomads. As such, his big spirit power mode making them glow makes a degree of sense. Does it make TOTAL sense? No. But it makes enough sense.

Also since they are TATTOOS, comparing them to just make up is a bit off. Tattoos are etched into the skin, they become part of your body. You can't just wash a tattoo off like make up.

[Sapphire Guard]

Nah, Gyatsu wasn't such a monster as to mock someone in obvious and real distress.

[Lord Raziere]

I love Tenzin's plotline for that exact reason. There's a LOT to be said about the fact that because of Aang's completely understandable respect for his ancient culture, he kinda ended up hurting his children. Tenzin is pushing that hurt forward with the way he acts- and by being such a stick in the mud, he's actually doing more harm than good in the name OF that culture. Would Aang's mentor look at Tenzin's strict, grounded teachings as properly Air? That's unlikely. Tenzin's behavior being played for laughs is what actual Air Nomads would have done to him if they were around, and that's kind of why it is beautiful.

It really speaks to both the good and bad of Air, something that Aang's story never GOT to touch on.

I mean here is the thing about Aang: he has massive survivors guilt compounded by the fact he is both the Avatar and a child.

in his mind he thinks he is responsible for his entire culture dying. he got the weight of the world placed upon his shoulders, ran away from that weight then found out that everything he knew and love died because the fire nation wanted to kill or capture him, specifically. all in the space of to him is a very short amount of time since he wasn't awake for 100 years. in a way his entire quest can be seen as his attempt to make up for running away from his responsibilities-which ironically what saved him and is a very air thing to do.

he is not a good example of his culture, because he has the whole Avatar thing screwing up the life he thought he was supposed to live: become monk, kill no one, attain enlightenment. the Avatar has to be more than the culture they came from. its no wonder why he foisted the Airbender thing onto Tenzin because there is no longer a conflict of interest: he just be the Avatar and not struggle to both uphold both his culture and the Avatar at the same time, thus escpaing from the responsibility of being "The Last Airbender". its sad, but true. Aang is an interesting character because despite all his goodness, he is a master class in finding ways to shirk his responsibilities and making it look sympathetic or distract you from the fact that he is doing that. its one of his most consistent character traits.

[uncool]

Aang is an interesting character because despite all his goodness, he is a master class in finding ways to shirk his responsibilities and making it look sympathetic or distract you from the fact that he is doing that. its one of his most consistent character traits.

And somewhat ironically, doing so is a perfect representation of one of the failure states of Airbender philosophy - turning avoidance of attachments into avoidance of responsibility.

[Peelee]

In universe the tattoos are of spiritual significance to the Air Nomads. As such, his big spirit power mode making them glow makes a degree of sense. Does it make TOTAL sense? No. But it makes enough sense.

Also since they are TATTOOS, comparing them to just make up is a bit off. Tattoos are etched into the skin, they become part of your body. You can't just wash a tattoo off like make up.

Kyoshi's makeup is, to the best of my knowledge, also of spiritual significance.

I am aware of the issues comparing makeup to tattoos, but it's the only real comparison I have. Regardless of significance, the tattoos are man-made, like the makeup, and it should be odd that the Avatar state incorporates them into its visual effects.

[Yanagi]

It's ambiguous because the show does not sit the audience down and explain the Air Nomad canon versus the specific guru-wisdom that Zaheer keeps quoting, but it's arguable that his political actions stem from non-attachment.

He's making the choice for other people to strip away the largest societal attachments they experience: the quality of subordination by nation and ruler, and the de facto god-like supremacy of the Avatar over the world. His alternative is not a concrete ruling philosophy that everyone must follow...even philosophical anarchists have rules, they're just radically egalitarian ones...but rather an state of "freedom" in which no individual is bound in place by constraining power. His ideology is pure to the point that it's ivory-tower abstraction: he wants to free people but is unconcerned with the reality of those people, how material conditions and context mean that negative freedoms (freedom from) bar positive freedoms (freedom to).

It's a pretty good take on how Air Nomad philosophy, and personality traits associated with "Air," can go wrong. One of the ways that an individual can harm others--treating them as means, not ends--is to penalize the actual person because of their inferiority to the hypothetical better person they could be. The individual becomes the means relative to the putative "better state"--enlightenment, spiritual purity, or just more perfectly conforming to a standard--and is thus diminished and degraded. The more common version of this is good faith spiritual abuse, where a person who authority exercises that power to push their followers into self-mortification to make them "better," but Zaheer is closer to a political zealot engaged in propaganda of the deed.

He's pretty much--spoilers for World War 1--Gavrilo Princip.

To the extent Zaheer has a model of what happens next, it's that individuals with freedom will autonomously pursue their own good, not that new hierarchies will form. It's the sort of base assumption an airbender would make: people as individuals would cope with change by dodging about and staying in motion, not creating new power structures and clashing them together to create a new static power hegemony.

[Rynjin]

Kyoshi's makeup is, to the best of my knowledge, also of spiritual significance.

I am aware of the issues comparing makeup to tattoos, but it's the only real comparison I have. Regardless of significance, the tattoos are man-made, like the makeup, and it should be odd that the Avatar state incorporates them into its visual effects.

Kyoshi's makeup is not spiritually significant in the same way; without her makeup she is still her. The tattoos are what mark an Airbender as truly being a full member of their tribe; they've been wearing them since before they WERE Airbenders or the Avatar even existed. It's also further linked, spiritually, to their connection with the Sky Bisons who taught them bending in the first place, who have the same arrows as a natural part of their bodies.

Believe is a tangible force of power in the Avatar universe, particularly for benders in general, and even more so for the Avatars themselves. Kyoshi wears makeup; she can put it on and take it off. It is not a part of her.

The tattoos the Air Nomads wear are a part of them in belief if not in "truth", and all Airbender Avatars are shown to have the same glow to their tattoos.

...Also, it looks cooler that way.

[InvisibleBison]

...Also, it looks cooler that way.

This might be the actual answer - it could be that Aang's tattoos glow because Raava thinks it looks cool.

[LaZodiac]

Nah, Gyatsu wasn't such a monster as to mock someone in obvious and real distress.

I'm not saying he'd mock him.

But he would absolutely do what he can to undermine Tenzin's position of stuffy, stick in the mud, unmoving wall of a mentor figure. It's good to have respect for these sorts of things, but Tenzin would make a far better Earth bender than he ever was Air bender. He is an unbroken iron will, and that just doesn't gell with air.


I mean here is the thing about Aang: he has massive survivors guilt compounded by the fact he is both the Avatar and a child.

in his mind he thinks he is responsible for his entire culture dying. he got the weight of the world placed upon his shoulders, ran away from that weight then found out that everything he knew and love died because the fire nation wanted to kill or capture him, specifically. all in the space of to him is a very short amount of time since he wasn't awake for 100 years. in a way his entire quest can be seen as his attempt to make up for running away from his responsibilities-which ironically what saved him and is a very air thing to do.

he is not a good example of his culture, because he has the whole Avatar thing screwing up the life he thought he was supposed to live: become monk, kill no one, attain enlightenment. the Avatar has to be more than the culture they came from. its no wonder why he foisted the Airbender thing onto Tenzin because there is no longer a conflict of interest: he just be the Avatar and not struggle to both uphold both his culture and the Avatar at the same time, thus escpaing from the responsibility of being "The Last Airbender". its sad, but true. Aang is an interesting character because despite all his goodness, he is a master class in finding ways to shirk his responsibilities and making it look sympathetic or distract you from the fact that he is doing that. its one of his most consistent character traits.

This is a way better way of saying it, yeah.

[Ramza00]

I'm not saying he'd mock him.

But he would absolutely do what he can to undermine Tenzin's position of stuffy, stick in the mud, unmoving wall of a mentor figure. It's good to have respect for these sorts of things, but Tenzin would make a far better Earth bender than he ever was Air bender. He is an unbroken iron will, and that just doesn't gell with air.

Is Tenzin like an Earthbender? Really? is that Earthbender traits or Tenzin having Trauma?

(echoes Lord Raziere even though she was talking about Aang.)

-----

Tenzin is what? *Counts, followed by a Google* Tenzin is 51 in Book 1, and he is the 3rd born of 3 kids. The only airbender of those 3 kids.

That means for 4 decades the only airbenders in the world was Aang, the Avatar, and the scared 3rd kid of 3 who had the entire world places on his shoulders like Atlas.

And then your dad dies 17 years ago + 9 months (maybe longer, we never learned the mechanics of the Raava / Avatar rebirth when the next one appears) and Tenzin still hasn't had any kids yet! That means there is at least 7 years where Tenzin is the only airbender in the world and he has no kids.

Tenzin's first kid, Jinora is only 10 during Book 1. We do not know when bending typically manifests (lets say ages 4 to 5 since Korra was 4 when she started bending, Meelo was 5 in Book 1. But we can also make the argument those may be exceptional cases and bending may not appear until a later age like 12 to 14 based on ATLA.)

That means with the death of Aang, and the 7 years before the birth of Jinora, plus the intern time where Jinora shows she is an airbender, that means roughly 10 years Tenzin was all on his own with all that pressure, all that trauma, all that weight of the world on his shoulders.

-----

Is Tenzin really like an Earthbender or is he an Airbender who has not had community and freedom until the last 3 years of the show (Between Book 3 and 4) ?

-----

What was the smothering comment that Tenzin "made" about his kids in Book 1?


Act III

(It is sunset on Air Temple Island, and the Sky Bison are once more circling the sky above the grounds. Cut to Tenzin's family's dining room. A low table rests in the center, atop of which is an unused cooking pot. Tenzin is sitting at the table with his eyes closed and his arms crossed over his chest. Meelo, Ikki, and Jinora are also sitting at the table, but the latter is reading a book.)

Pema: (walking in with a tray of food) Okay, everyone here? (looks around) Wait, where's Korra?
Tenzin: (puts a hand to his head, and speaks quickly) Honestly Pema, I am at my wits end with that girl. I don't know how to get through to her. (slumps and looks down)
Pema: (going to Tenzin and putting an arm around him) Dear, the best thing you can do right now is to give Korra some space.
Tenzin: (looking across the table to his children) You must promise me that your teenage years won't be like this.

(The view cuts over to center on Jinora. She looks up from her book with lidded eyes.)

Jinora: I will make no such promises.

That is not "earthbending" instincts speaking, that is trauma and trying to control the uncontrollable for you are scared.

This is the previous scene before Act 3 that I just quoted.


(Korra stumbles backwards into another panel, and falls to the ground. She gets visibly angry, and rises into a Firebending attack at the Gates. She throws a flurry of punches that unleash fireballs all around her, then lets out a massive attack that explodes outwards and takes out all the spinning panels. The camera cuts to Tenzin and family, who are staring with shock, before returning to Korra. She is panting for breath, standing in the center of a cloud of smile while the wreckage of the Gates burns around her.)

Tenzin: (shell-shocked) That was a 2,000 year old historical treasure. (furious) What... what is wrong with you?
Korra: (emerging from the Gates, angry and gesturing dramatically) There's nothing wrong with me. I've been practicing just like you taught me, but it isn't sinking in, okay?
Korra: It hasn't clicked like you said it would.
Tenzin: Korra, this isn't something you can force.If you would only listen to me.
Korra: (screaming) I have been! But you know what I think? Maybe the problem isn't me. Maybe the reason I haven't learned Airbending yet is because you're a terrible teacher.(runs off screen)
Tenzin: Ughh.
Meelo: (steps forward and points at Tenzin with a big grin)Yeah, you're a terrible teacher daddy. (runs into the wreckage of the Gates, and starts kicking and throwing pieces around with wild glee) Wahh, ahh, ahhhh!

(Tenzin looks down with defeat, but Ikki and Jinora both move as one to solemnly hug him. Fade to commercial break.)

Training your father, when you are the only hope, and you consider yourself a failure for decades is some true Oedipal stuff. Words that would not have meaning coming from other people have significant meaning with Korra and Tenzin for it is a reversal of the family dynamics of Aang and Tenzin. All the pressure was on Tenzin, he was the only airbender (besides Aang) for 40+ Years!

(And this fact also influenced Tenzin's relationships with his siblings, dysfunctional family dynamics all around. I love this show precisely because of this. That said some of Bumi Season 2 stuff is a little too much.)

[Lord Raziere]

Yes I would agree that with Ramza on all those Tenzin points. he is someone who is carrying a weight that Aang forced on him BECAUSE of Aang's own problems.

[LaZodiac]

I mean, Tenzin's legitimate trauma weighing him down so much that personality wise he feels very Earth is exactly my point. The world and his father have pulled at him so hard that he's lost that degree of lightness Air should have. I'm not saying it's his fault, I'm just saying it's tragic- but also that the best way to do this would be to force him out of that "comforting place of trauma" and get him to lighten up, in a spiritual and personality sense.

Consider that he does start to become less of a stick in the mud when he realizes the people who are, in his eyes, irresponsible and far too care free, start showing that despite his read on them they're actually weighed down by trauma too, they just know how to handle it and still live a breezy life. Tenzin's spiritual journey is one of my favorite parts of the show.

[Rater202]

I never actually got why Aang's tattoos glowed in the Avatar state. It'd be like Kyoshi's makeup glowing. It's something humans decorated their body with.

Imean, I get why they did it from a Doylistic perspective but not from a Watsonian perspective.

Maybe the tattoos are made from a pigment that reacts to large quantities of chi or other spiritual energies?

When Aang enters the Avatar State, he is essentially being possessed not only by Ravanah but also by literally everyone who has ever been the Avatar with all of their power, knowledge, and skill being added to his own... And the Avatar is the most powerful of all four kinds of benders even before accounting for the fact that they can do all four kinds of bending and that's assuming that the previous Avatars aren't becoming more powerful over time now that they're spirits residing in the spirit world instead of physical meat beings restricted by a mortal(long) bot mortal lifespan and the attendant limitations of a meat body.

Aang in the Avatar state probably has more Chi within his body in that moment than the entire rest of the planet. If the pigments in his tattoos glow in the presence of large concentrations of chi?

Of course, I'm just throwing crap at the wall to see if it makes sense, but this?

This is why I tried to do an Avatar game in the free form section. I want to talk about this stuff. I want to speculate on what happens if an Earthbender, Firebender, or Waterbender opens up all of their chakras, or how applying the philosophies of one element affects another.

[dancrilis]

But he would absolutely do what he can to undermine Tenzin's position of stuffy, stick in the mud, unmoving wall of a mentor figure. It's good to have respect for these sorts of things, but Tenzin would make a far better Earth bender than he ever was Air bender. He is an unbroken iron will, and that just doesn't gell with air.


Don't particularly see him as any more strict or unbending then Monks Pasang and Tashi - I think we might not have seen enough of airbender culture to make real analysis of how a 'proper' airbender behaves but we have seen how a number of airbender masters behave and there seem to be few enough universal traits.

[Ramza00]

Don't particularly see him as any more strict or unbending then Monks Pasang and Tashi - I think we might not have seen enough of airbender culture to make real analysis of how a 'proper' airbender behaves but we have seen how a number of airbender masters behave and there seem to be few enough universal traits.

Even Yangchen* to Aang was saying this is your moral obligation, this is your duty, to kill Ozai if it leads to peace between the 4 nations and prevents a genocide.

*Then again the avatars are all part earthbenders.

[Yanagi]

Don't particularly see him as any more strict or unbending then Monks Pasang and Tashi - I think we might not have seen enough of airbender culture to make real analysis of how a 'proper' airbender behaves but we have seen how a number of airbender masters behave and there seem to be few enough universal traits.

Yeah.

Air Nomads are presented as having features of both a monastic order and a gurukal, so there could be a lot of variance depending on your teacher and their interpretative lineage. Same thing that happens with the Jedi: there are formal rules, but also the subtleties of interpreting and contextualizing the rules that are learned through interaction and modeling.

Aang would be trying to re-create a dead culture without most of the intangible components: he was never an adult Air Nomad nor had to navigate "normal" functioning with other Air Nomads, so all he has is the written down material and no framework to sort through it.

And it would be even more stressful to be the person on the receiving end of all that information.

[LibraryOgre]

It did not occur to me on the first watch, but Bumi is 100% a Bard (or, better yet, a Hackmaster Rogue, with a LOT of luck points, that he burned through at an alarming pace in s2e12 Harmonic Convergence).

ETA: Also, just watched the end of the Mako/Korra romance. Korra and Mako break up. Korra leaves, loses her memory, and Mako and Asami kissed. When Korra comes back, Mako doesn't tell her they broke up, so she continues like they were together, and Mako lets her... which upsets Asami.

After the fight against Vatuu/Unalaq, Mako tells Korra about the break up... and then runs away from both Korra and Asami. Korra and Asami hang out and talk about it... and mostly decide that the problem is that Mako is a coward. Korra doesn't blame Asami for kissing Mako... the Korra and Mako weren't a thing at that point. Asami doesn't blame Korra for kissing Mako. They both think Mako is kinda a dink... and get to hang out, as friends, and eventually more.

[Ramza00]

It did not occur to me on the first watch, but Bumi is 100% a Bard (or, better yet, a Hackmaster Rogue, with a LOT of luck points, that he burned through at an alarming pace in s2e12 Harmonic Convergence).

All I can imagine when I think of Bumi as a young kid is "look at me dad" and he tries to get Aang's attention for Aang is

90% Neutral: (avoidant, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, absent, reserved, ignoring, neglectful.) and
10% Responsive: (supportive, responsive, engaging, affectionate, friendly, sympathetic, cooperative.)

Due to the fact Aang has dozens of responsibilities, and even if he wants to be energized by his kids, he is also so focused on spreading his culture that was lost and thus he hyperfocused on Tenzin. Aang was drawn in many directions at once, the obligation to the culture he was born into, the obligation to the current world as of now with being the Avatar, and the obligation to his family, and the individuals inside ones family.

----

Poor Bumi, the Epicure, but also the Envious.

And I just realized his, Bumi's, "airbending" awakening is something similar to what many kids do with their parents, except reversed.

Bumi was trying to give his dragonfly bunny spirit a personal gift, like a kid wants praise from their parent, and the dragonfly bunny spirit is literally named Bum-JuBumi-Junior but a shortened personal nickname. Oedipus Conflict everywhere with the Aang family. Bumi literally joined the military for he thought it would make Aang proud of him.

[Pex]

So now an Air Bender becomes the Villain. Just saw the first episode of Book 3 at this point, but in terms of concept Korra continues to answer my question in my Avatar thread. I'm liking this. Fire doesn't have to be the Bad Guy.

[Razade]

So now an Air Bender becomes the Villain. Just saw the first episode of Book 3 at this point, but in terms of concept Korra continues to answer my question in my Avatar thread. I'm liking this. Fire doesn't have to be the Bad Guy.

Korra's pretty good in showing how other Bending Nations might actually go overboard. The first season is an anti-bender sentiment. Second has a Water Bender big bad. Third has an Air Bender big bad and the final season has an Earth Bender as the big bad.

[LibraryOgre]

Watching Zaheer move through the gates in training at Air Bender Island, I loved how they showed he did it well, but in an entirely differently style than you see from Tenzin or Aang.

ETA: A problem I saw during the "You can't bend platinum" thing that came up a couple times in Season 3: No, I cannot bend platinum. However, I CAN bend steel, and put this steel rod in the links of this chain, and rip the chain open with the steel, which is much, much harder than platinum.

Sure, I need a piece of steel to do it, but those platinum chains aren't staying on for long if I've got a bit of scrap.

ETA, Part 2: Thinking about the order of seasons (now that I've gotten to Season 4), consider that each season deals with a different type of imbalance... and they work in couplets. Season 1 is about rejecting the spirits and their gifts; Season 2 is about embracing them to the detriment of humanity... and extreme overreaction to the problem of Season 1. Season 3 is about anarchy; season 4 is about totalitarianism, in reaction to the events of Season 3.

[uncool]

Korra's pretty good in showing how other Bending Nations might actually go overboard. The first season is an anti-bender sentiment. Second has a Water Bender big bad. Third has an Air Bender big bad and the final season has an Earth Bender as the big bad.

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

[Razade]

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

The Airbenders as shown in the first series seem the most concerned with monastic introspection. So much so that they don't have any lands of their own, instead only one of several temples far removed from the rest of the world. They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown. No other nation stepped in to stop them and while we see a ton taken out by a singular monk, we're not told how many were fought off before they took the other Air Temples out. Zaheer takes this concept of freedom from the world beyond to the extreme, feeling that everyone should be as free as him. A lot of it gets into real world religion but Zaheer is a distinctly Air Bender villain because of how radical and esoteric his desires are. He doesn't want land or power or control. He wants to break the chains he sees everyone else is bound by. Whether they agree or not. That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.

[dancrilis]

They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown.

They did that with the power of Sozin's comet to memory - so the exact same plan they had with the earth kingdom (and as mentioned it was a stupid plan although more justified for the air nomads).



That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.
Fire is fairly free - I think it could do it, they also have their own monks.

[Lord Raziere]

The Airbenders as shown in the first series seem the most concerned with monastic introspection. So much so that they don't have any lands of their own, instead only one of several temples far removed from the rest of the world. They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown. No other nation stepped in to stop them and while we see a ton taken out by a singular monk, we're not told how many were fought off before they took the other Air Temples out. Zaheer takes this concept of freedom from the world beyond to the extreme, feeling that everyone should be as free as him. A lot of it gets into real world religion but Zaheer is a distinctly Air Bender villain because of how radical and esoteric his desires are. He doesn't want land or power or control. He wants to break the chains he sees everyone else is bound by. Whether they agree or not. That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.

Exactly.

Zaheer is an Airbender villain precisely because he takes this extreme philosophical position that no one more grounded could possibly believe in. Honestly I'm not sure how I could put it better, because entire point is that its a pie-in-the-sky endeavor.

Like, similar goals for an airbender villain in my mind without being a repeat would be like figuring how to pacify the entire world- not a national level, but a personal level so that no one can initiate conflict between even on the smallest of scales, leading to the airbender mindwashing people person by person in an incredibly extreme version of "respecting life"- they themselves wouldn't kill anyone but they would be kidnapping and midnwashing a lot of people to make sure no one is violent ever again, forcing them to not step on bugs or argue.

think of Earth as a metaphor for reality and Air for ideals, and that Zaheer is an example of someone being caught up in ideals. you can say Zaheer's quest doesn't really make sense, but he'd counter that a more "grounded and realistic" pursuit like say, making money doesn't make sense because it never ends: all your doing is earning money to earn more money thus to him all your doing is binding yourself to suffer earning money forever, as either you only make enough to to get by or you profit and start getting greedy and thus consume things out of control until it destroys you.

Zaheer trying to do something like gain an empire or land? whats the point, all empires fade and die eventually, might as well not bother. go for wealth? Why, just to make a number go up using shiny metals that people trick themselves into thinking is valuable? the entire point is to be minimalist: the Air Nomad idea of perfection is something akin to shedding anything that weighs you down, to get rid of anything overdesigned, elaborate, over-consumptive, perfection is not you add but what is left when you take anything unneeded away.

Zaheer just thinks that people don't need governments- and even if you did convinced him that they are, he'd argue that the government that rules best is the one that rules least. Its having an incredible amount of faith in human nature to figure out how to solve things themselves, but if he didn't....he wouldn't believably be what he is. Not all evil villains are cynical power grabbing egomaniacs who think only THEY can rule this or that because they are that awesome. (which arguably both Ozai and Kuvira fall into at the very least, and what many villains boil down to throughout much of fiction, no matter how well-intentioned.)

[dancrilis]

Exactly.
but he'd counter that a more "grounded and realistic" pursuit like say, making money doesn't make sense because it never ends
Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).



Zaheer trying to do something like gain an empire or land? whats the point, all empires fade and die eventually
Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.



he'd argue that the government that rules best is the one that rules least.
As would lots of people but that is vastly different then arguing for anarchy.


Its having an incredible amount of faith in human nature to figure out how to solve things themselves, but if he didn't....he wouldn't believably be what he is.
But he didn't - if he had he would have left the avatar alone.
Maybe you could argue that he had faith that the weak would want freedom rather then security and even that is a stretch.

[Ramza00]

Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.


So Zaheer would argue for Anarchy for other reasons besides "time scales" all of this is dust...

But let's backtrack this with the Couplet theory brought up earlier. This was the struggle of Wan, Vaatu, and Raava, does this reality matter, or is it only enternal outcomes that matter in the fullness of time?

Wan taught Raava that "sentiment" itself matters besides protecting people of the here and now, Raava was transformed by the experience and she remembers via memory more than the struggle between her and Vaatu. Vaatu in Sanskrit means Silence while Raava means Sound. Well via bonding with Wan prior to Harmonic Convergence their cooperation turn Raava's light / sound into music.

-----

Backtracking to Zaheer, Zaheer believes in Anarchy for he believes in freedom and it is the birthright of all people to be able to play their own music of their own volitiation and not do so merely for it pleases another due to hierarchy (what family you were born into.)

[LaZodiac]

Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).


Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.


As would lots of people but that is vastly different then arguing for anarchy.


But he didn't - if he had he would have left the avatar alone.
Maybe you could argue that he had faith that the weak would want freedom rather then security and even that is a stretch.

Money doesn't work like that.

Empires won't turn to dust until we shatter them to pieces.

No government to rule at all would be a government that rules least. You cannot get less than "doesn't exist".

The strong gravitate towards the weak, and end up ruling them by their nature. It is better for everyone to remove the Avatar, now.

That is how Zaheer thinks. That is how it is presented in the show.

[Lord Raziere]

Money doesn't work like that.

Empires won't turn to dust until we shatter them to pieces.

No government to rule at all would be a government that rules least. You cannot get less than "doesn't exist".

The strong gravitate towards the weak, and end up ruling them by their nature. It is better for everyone to remove the Avatar, now.

That is how Zaheer thinks. That is how it is presented in the show.

Yeah, and even if money did work that way, its not really about How Things Really Work anyways. its about how Zaheer sees things working, and what he values, not what the viewer values. If he complied completely with what the viewers valued, he wouldn't really be much of a villain at all. complying with our values means he would be a hero after all, and not do anything that would go against what we believe.

He doesn't value governments, rules or things tying people down, end of story. Any Zaheer-based villainy that doesn't follow from this base assumption is a non-starter. and I wouldn't change anything about him being a villain or him being representative of airbender villainy.

but lets try and find a few quotes from Zaheer to see what he really believes as I have not heard him in a long time:

"When you base your expectations only on what you see, you blind yourself to the possibilities of a new reality."

"The idea of having nations and governments, is as foolish as keeping the human and spirit realms separate. You've had to deal with a moronic president, and a tyrannical Queen. Don't you think the world would be better off... if leaders like them were eliminated?"

It wasn't too long ago, that the Airbenders were nearly all wiped out, thanks to the Fire Lord's desire for world dominance. True freedom can only be achieved when oppressive governments are torn down.

"The natural order, is disorder. Do you know who once said, "New growth cannot exist, without first the destruction of the old?"

"Like all great children's tales, it contains truth within the myth. Laghima once wrote, "Instinct is a lie, told by a fearful body, hoping to be wrong.""

Guard: How?! You're not a bender!
Zaheer: Nature is constantly changing. Like the Wind.

"We are what the White Lotus was meant to be... but after the Hundred Year War, the White Lotus lost its true purpose. Its members came out of hiding, and openly served the Avatar. They became nothing but glorified bodyguards, who served corrupt nations. So a great man named Xai Bao broke from the White Lotus, and began his own society."

"You think that freedom is something you can give or take, on a whim. But to your people, freedom is just as essential as... air. And without it... there is no life. There is only... darkness."

He is all about change. His view is not only that things should change- things are always changing. that looking too much what is in front of you blinds yourself to things that are more, and that freedom is as essential as air and that every new thing requires some old thing to go. these assumptions by themselves aren't that unreasonable as nothing stays the same, holding yourself to patterns keeps your from breaking those patterns to form something better, and too much restraint is basically a slow death.

He sees the White Lotus as having lost its purpose, and serving corrupt nations (which is not unfounded, between Varrick, Tarrlok, Earth Queen and so on, its pretty clear that the rulers and people in power in this era are full of flaws, and the best ruler on display is that one foppish earth prince who decided to give up ruling so democratic elections would take place), he uses the words of a long dead airbender guru Laghima, who lets face it, was probably was observing a forest fire burn down a forest and plant new seeds in the process when they said that, so you see where that probably came from.

he is essentially the kind of guy who looks at things as being Disorderly And Thats Okay. If you value things being orderly, you probably will never get that, but thats what he is about.

[Ramza00]

Change of subject that I will definitely regret.

But in my mind Zaheer's plan was better than MCU's Marvel Movies Thanos plan. It also felt he actually believed this stuff in a way Thanos did not.

Does anyone here want to make the opposite case where Thanos was a more effective villain characterizing that specific of his character in which he is a villian?

[LaZodiac]

Change of subject that I will definitely regret.

But in my mind Zaheer's plan was better than MCU's Marvel Movies Thanos plan. It also felt he actually believed this stuff in a way Thanos did not.

Does anyone here want to make the opposite case where Thanos was a more effective villain characterizing that specific of his character in which he is a villian?

Zaheer is infinitely better than Thanos because, among other things, the problem Thanos sees does not exist. Unlike Zaheer who is CORRECT, but morally dubious, Thanos is just a ****ing idiot.

[Lord Raziere]

Zaheer is infinitely better than Thanos because, among other things, the problem Thanos sees does not exist. Unlike Zaheer who is CORRECT, but morally dubious, Thanos is just a ****ing idiot.

Zaheer Vs. Thanos: Debate Battle!
Thanos: I'm going to kill 50% of the universe to maintain balance with the Infinity Gauntlet
Zaheer: that is not how the natural balance of the world works. the natural balance is disorder, and your are imposing an unnatural order by using an artificial extinction method, when extinction should come about naturally as a result of the processes of survival and every living being free to choose what happens of their own free will. As expected from a foolish authority figure you try to control too much, and what if that 50% is all one gender? then that just leads to everything going extinct and thus 100% death. Your oppression of life will thus only lead to everything dying, clearly I should kill you then use the Infinity Gauntlet to snap all authority figures out of existence to save everyone from you and all other tyrants.

ZAHEER WINS!

PHILOSOPHY!

[Razade]

They did that with the power of Sozin's comet to memory - so the exact same plan they had with the earth kingdom (and as mentioned it was a stupid plan although more justified for the air nomads).

I don't remember and it doesn't change anything in any meaningful way even if it's the case. The comet wouldn't have won them the Earth Kingdom without the stuff Azula did. It has no baring on the other stuff.


Fire is fairly free - I think it could do it, they also have their own monks.

Having monks isn't the same as having the same philosophy as the Air Nomads or the motivations Zaheer espouses which is all that I was discussing.

[Rater202]

So, this isn't the place to discuss Thanos in MCU... (honestly, I figure "he's insane and wants to bone the Grim Reaper" was still a good enough reason to kill half the universe in the comics) but I did see this at the end of last month and I think it sums up everything wrong with MCU Thanos nicely.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-g4TxzMye7pg/X5xrPzNqFnI/AAAAAAAACY0/bteqhwT763slxKarYJwBLH3ArvZjtQrWwCK8BGAsYHg/s512/2020-10-30.png

In case that's too small for you to read:
"Ahhh, Perry the Platypus! Behold: the INFINITY GAUNTLET!.... Inator. With one snap of my fingers as I collect the sixth stone, I will have infinite power; enough to.... create more resources for the entire planet! They will WORSHIP me as a hero, and I will take over the ENTIRE TRI STATE AREA!"

"What? Kill half of all people? What kind of crazy person would do that?"

If you've got reality-warping powers sufficient to completely redefine the laws of physics and the like, and your goal is to prevent scarcity... You can just make more resources. Take pollutants out of the air and water and turn them back into the original resources. Make people need less food and water: Or No food and water.

If you absolutely have to kill half of everyone, instead of doing it randomly you'd be setting qualifiers and prioritizing some people over others: Ignoring morality and ethics, the obvious thing to do is exempt people who produce and distribute resources while making sure to kill off people who hoard resources or consume them in great excess of their needs before even thinking about anyone else. Randomly killing half of all populations just means that the exact same problems persist but with fewer people whose job is to try and make the systems work, causing the bad kind of anarchy as the survivors panic and riot.

In comparison, the only thing objectively wrong about Zaheer's plan is that he was going from 0 to 100 in no time flat and was planning to force it on people. Theoretically, his plans could have worked if he'd been less of a jackass about it.

[dancrilis]

Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).


Money doesn't work like that.
How do you think money works - or more correctly in which ways does money not work like that?

[LibraryOgre]

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

There is a difference between an airbender and an air nomad, as that season make abundantly clear, and an idea that I think plays well into my observation above... he goes through the gates lesson like a pro, but in a way entirely different than what Tenzin taught. Tenzin's method was flowing and patiently... you were a leaf, floating through the gates and letting them take you to where you wanted to go. Zaheer's method was not that... it was a driving zig-zag, avoiding obstacles, yes, but reliant more on directness than flow. Watch it again; it is visually very different.

The air nomad philosophy was one of evasion... you let go of the world so it does not influence you, but you also try not to influence it. Zaheer's philosophy was one of rising above the world so you could see its pattern, then reach down and influence that pattern... or scatter the one that was there and start anew. I think Zaheer's approach was limited, partially because he did not consider the cultures of others... he'd risen so far above the world that he could not see details... and the effects that would have on the pattern. He did not see how the earth shaped the wind, because his view was flattened by altitude... which is part of what let him fly.

[GloatingSwine]

If you've got reality-warping powers sufficient to completely redefine the laws of physics and the like, and your goal is to prevent scarcity... You can just make more resources. Take pollutants out of the air and water and turn them back into the original resources. Make people need less food and water: Or No food and water.

Yep.

But if you've spent the last couple of thousand years stewing in bitterness that they didn't listen to you and you're determined to prove that you were Right All Along, that's a different matter...

[LibraryOgre]

Since I finished it last week:

I liked Korra more on the second viewing. Mind you, I liked it on the first, years ago, but it felt more disjointed, then, but felt smoother this trip through.

I saw some interesting paralells in the seasons... as others have mentioned, your enemies were ostensibly non-benders, water tribe, an air bender, and the Earth Empire, rounding things out from Aang's fire nation enemies.

Beyond that, though, their philosophies were, essentially, the rejection of the spirit and its powers, then over-reliance on spirituality. Then you had anarchy followed by totalitarianism. In both couplets, you had the ones espousing their views get their chance to talk, but the Avatar pushing things more towards balance... but not necessarily the status quo.

Amon's rebellion lead to a reorganization of Republic City, giving non-benders a bigger voice. Unalak lead to the opening of spirit portals, and the reunification (at least in spirit) of the water tribes. Zaheer's anarchy led to the totalitarism of Kuvira, which led to the dissolution of the Earth Kingdom into what one hopes will be the Earth Republic.

[Peelee]

Since I finished it last week:

I liked Korra more on the second viewing. Mind you, I liked it on the first, years ago, but it felt more disjointed, then, but felt smoother this trip through.

I saw some interesting paralells in the seasons... as others have mentioned, your enemies were ostensibly non-benders, water tribe, an air bender, and the Earth Empire, rounding things out from Aang's fire nation enemies.

Beyond that, though, their philosophies were, essentially, the rejection of the spirit and its powers, then over-reliance on spirituality. Then you had anarchy followed by totalitarianism. In both couplets, you had the ones espousing their views get their chance to talk, but the Avatar pushing things more towards balance... but not necessarily the status quo.

Amon's rebellion lead to a reorganization of Republic City, giving non-benders a bigger voice. Unalak lead to the opening of spirit portals, and the reunification (at least in spirit) of the water tribes. Zaheer's anarchy led to the totalitarism of Kuvira, which led to the dissolution of the Earth Kingdom into what one hopes will be the Earth Republic.

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

[LibraryOgre]

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

They already did the spirit-weapon plotline, man. They mounted it on a mecha.

[Peelee]

They already did the spirit-weapon plotline, man. They mounted it on a mecha.

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

[dancrilis]

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

And since the bureaucracy will likely be vastly expansive and do nothing but limit what normal people can do in their own lives, the empire will likely be met with thunderous applause.

[Ramza00]

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

General Iroh with the bombing planes at Season 1 is Star Wars Speeder Bikes / Car Chase scene.

[LibraryOgre]

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

... I went from Korra to Clone Wars... which I have watched before...

[Peelee]

... I went from Korra to Clone Wars... which I have watched before...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/ePL05nRDzwCXe/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[Ajustusdaniel]

Yep.

But if you've spent the last couple of thousand years stewing in bitterness that they didn't listen to you and you're determined to prove that you were Right All Along, that's a different matter...

I think this is it in a nutshell- Thanos isn't acting rationally, he's reacting out of trauma to the death of his world, and trying to apply the solution that he thought would work in those specific circumstances (also doubtful, but hey, he never got a chance to see it fail) to the universe as a whole.

[Pex]

Finished Book Three. Feeling sorry for Mako. It appears to me he got demoted to a glorified extra. He has good ideas, but he mostly reacts and gets a line to remind everyone he's there. However, I do give him credit for being supportive of his brother. Still on Team Bolin.

I have to agree with others who say Book Three is better than the first two if only by how I watched the season. With the first two seasons by Episode 8 or so I would check to see how many episodes were left. I was enjoying them, but I wanted to know how much longer until the finale. With Book 3 I didn't do that. As a major confrontation was taking place with the Red Lotus it felt epic, like it was the final battle. It was then I realized I hadn't checked how much longer the season was, and I verified it was the last episode of the season and this was the finale. Book 3 was enough more entertaining than the previous two to not wonder when it was over. I think it is because of Zaheer. He was the villain, but he wasn't lusting for power. I won't say he was Correct, but he had a point. He was interesting. I was rooting against him for what he did, not why he did it. His friends I didn't like at all. They were one dimensional. I did not get the impression they were so gung ho on Zaheer's philisophy. They only wanted to rampage.

[Celestia]

Finished Book Three. Feeling sorry for Mako. It appears to me he got demoted to a glorified extra. He has good ideas, but he mostly reacts and gets a line to remind everyone he's there. However, I do give him credit for being supportive of his brother. Still on Team Bolin.
If there's anyone on this show that I pity, it's Mako. He showed potential when he was first introduced, but it was strangled in the first two seasons by terrible romance. In seasons three and four, he broke from that, but he was then immediately relegated to the background and wasn't allowed to bloom as the writers decided that Tenzin was a better straight man character. Thus, Mako lives on as the worst character of the show, and it's not really his fault.

[Pex]

The Rememberance episode was unnecessary and dumb. Was there a writers' strike at the time? There was no point to it. I have mixed feelings about Varrick's story on Bolin. I believe Varrick is sincere when he praises Bolin while grossly exaggerating his accomplishments, but Bolin's story could have been fine as is. He was terrific the previous episode saving the refugees and being the Hero. He didn't have to save them, but he knew yes he did and he did. Varrick may have a point, though. Perhaps Bolin doesn't get enough credit/respect he deserves from those who matter.

[LaZodiac]

The Rememberance episode was unnecessary and dumb. Was there a writers' strike at the time? There was no point to it. I have mixed feelings about Varrick's story on Bolin. I believe Varrick is sincere when he praises Bolin while grossly exaggerating his accomplishments, but Bolin's story could have been fine as is. He was terrific the previous episode saving the refugees and being the Hero. He didn't have to save them, but he knew yes he did and he did. Varrick may have a point, though. Perhaps Bolin doesn't get enough credit/respect he deserves from those who matter.

I think there was to a degree, but also I think it was definitely the creators expressing that they understood a lot of people disliked early Korra, so here is some good natured dunking on Mako and season 2.

Varrick is correct by the way, Bolin deserves way more than he gets in a lot of ways.

[Morty]

The Rememberance episode was unnecessary and dumb. Was there a writers' strike at the time? There was no point to it. I have mixed feelings about Varrick's story on Bolin. I believe Varrick is sincere when he praises Bolin while grossly exaggerating his accomplishments, but Bolin's story could have been fine as is. He was terrific the previous episode saving the refugees and being the Hero. He didn't have to save them, but he knew yes he did and he did. Varrick may have a point, though. Perhaps Bolin doesn't get enough credit/respect he deserves from those who matter.

The show's budget got cut, so they had to make do with a clip show episode. You seem to have really missed the point of Varric's segment, though. It wasn't meant to praise Bolin or tell any kind of accurate story. He was just showboating like he always is.

[Ionathus]

If there's anyone on this show that I pity, it's Mako. He showed potential when he was first introduced, but it was strangled in the first two seasons by terrible romance. In seasons three and four, he broke from that, but he was then immediately relegated to the background and wasn't allowed to bloom as the writers decided that Tenzin was a better straight man character. Thus, Mako lives on as the worst character of the show, and it's not really his fault.

Agreed, Mako was a smart, sharp badass but they just really didn't know what to do with him after Season 1. It doesn't help that he was already the "adult" on the team in a lot of ways, so he didn't really have any personal growth or things to grapple with. None of his subplots (the Investigation vs. the two useless detectives, protecting Korra, guarding the Earth King) changed him at all: it was always just "Mako is competent but he has to put up with X now."

[Pex]

Finished. It wouldn't be Anime without giant robots, nuclear blasts, and city destruction. Not thrilled with that. Even accepting the technological advance it didn't fit the story. This isn't Robotech. For the record I wasn't happy when the blasting and destruction happened in Akira either, but that's the genre of Anime.

I agree Mako has been given a disservice. I was just thinking how useless he was in the last few episodes then he does his heroic sacrifice. I'm glad it wasn't a true sacrifice. Bolin gets his own heroic moments at the end.

Overall I did like the show. I prefer Avatar, but this was fine. I'm glad I finally saw it.

[Cen]

I agree Mako has been given a disservice. I was just thinking how useless he was in the last few episodes then he does his heroic sacrifice. I'm glad it wasn't a true sacrifice. B.

Think of his as of a guy who was such a horrible boyfriend he turned two of his girlfriends gay :D