20 class build challenge

[Tekren]

Has anyone ever made a 20 class build that was effective?

I remember building one as a thought exercise in 2003 or so, and I remember I needed a spreadsheet to handle my skill point prerequisites.

I had to go Dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Dwarven Paragon/Fighter/Warrior to get a +5BAB, but then it was all 1 fighter-type level prestige classes, along with a one-level dip in Rogue to qualify for some sneaky prestige classes that needed a sneak attack die.

Please, show me what you got.

[noob]

Has anyone ever made a 20 class build that was effective?

I remember building one as a thought exercise in 2003 or so, and I remember I needed a spreadsheet to handle my skill point prerequisites.

I had to go Dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Dwarven Paragon/Fighter/Warrior to get a +5BAB, but then it was all 1 fighter-type level prestige classes, along with a one-level dip in Rogue to qualify for some sneaky prestige classes that needed a sneak attack die.

Please, show me what you got.
Simple way
Wizard1/lots of 1 level prc dips.
For the first prc dips use shadowcraft mage and master specialist.
There is people who essentially uses enough qualification cheese that they would just have a full casting wizard with 19 levels in 19 prcs that progress wizard.

[Tekren]

Simple way
Wizard1/lots of 1 level prc dips.
For the first prc dips use shadowcraft mage and master specialist.


I thought shadowcraft mage required being able to cast a 4th level [shadow] spell, and Master specialist needed to cast a second level spell. What did I miss?

Or are we counting conjurer/ wizard / evoker /etc as separate classes that add +1 to caster level?

[noob]

I thought shadowcraft mage required being able to cast a 4th level [shadow] spell, and Master specialist needed to cast a second level spell. What did I miss?

Or are we counting conjurer/ wizard / evoker /etc as separate classes that add +1 to caster level?

There is ways to qualify early through feats like earth spell(spell is prepared in the same slot but is one level higher as long as you are on solid ground) and a bunch of other metamagics and/or feats (like combining spontaneous divination with that feat that allows to combine two spells of one level to cast a spell one level higher).
And if you do enough early qualification and get like 2 prcs then you get to pick the next prcs easier and easier (the prcs after the two first are qualified for thanks to lycanthropy for increasing skill ranks then curing lycanthropy immediately after raising ranks or other early qualification tricks).

[zlefin]

How effective are you looking for?
If you don't mind the tier system, then the easiest way to ask would be what Tier-equivalent would be acceptable? (eg would a tier 4 equivalent be acceptable, or are you looking for at least 3, I'm pretty sure you could stay in tier 5 trivially).

It also depends on how much cheese you allow, as there's so much stuff, that with enough cheese you can make all sorts of ridiculous things.
I forget whether its' legal, but using other PrCs that advance casting to advance Ur-Priest would be strong.

a fighter-blend that picks up the 3 Tome of Battle classes at various points would have a lot of solid options, as those classes are very dip friendly. They'd be a solid combatant.

A fair number of the X stat to Y bonuses are picked up at first level, so stacking a lot of those would be a decent option.

[EndlessKng]

How effective are you looking for?
If you don't mind the tier system, then the easiest way to ask would be what Tier-equivalent would be acceptable? (eg would a tier 4 equivalent be acceptable, or are you looking for at least 3, I'm pretty sure you could stay in tier 5 trivially).

It also depends on how much cheese you allow, as there's so much stuff, that with enough cheese you can make all sorts of ridiculous things.
I forget whether its' legal, but using other PrCs that advance casting to advance Ur-Priest would be strong.

a fighter-blend that picks up the 3 Tome of Battle classes at various points would have a lot of solid options, as those classes are very dip friendly. They'd be a solid combatant.

A fair number of the X stat to Y bonuses are picked up at first level, so stacking a lot of those would be a decent option.

I think the Ur-Priest one should be legal... nothing I know says it WOULDN'T work. The trick is finding a class that only requires the spell levels an Ur-Priest would get at UP 1.

I'm on board with the Fighter Blend idea. It's actually one time that the OA samurai might come in handy - the Ancestral Daisho is based on character level, not class level, so you could use it to get magic items. Of course, it's still likely useless compared to gear you pick up, but it may be a good addition to those to get that extra BAB, and if your game doesn't have ready magic item access, it is a possible solution.

Looking down the combat build... I think going with Fighter+ToB as a start, you can also a couple other +1 BAB classes to then qualify for ToB prestige classes. Don't look down on a few non-BAB options, though - grabbing Monk can bolster AC with Wisdom and get Flurry of Blows (and help qualify for some other PrCs). For some Gish options, you may want to start as a Duskblade 1 with the Precocious Apprentice - since it gives a Second Level Spell Slot (rather than other options that treat the spell as one level higher, which is... more dubious, IMO), this option allows you potential access into any Gish class that requires a second level spell, while also giving Duskblade's +1 BAB to the mix. Unfortunately, Eldritch Knight just gives a bonus feat at first level, so in a 20-class/20-level build, it won't add to your casting power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the warrior front, there are 11 base classes that all give full BAB not including barbarian for alignment conflict.

You get a fair variety of offensive features from it too. For gods' sake, start ranger and grab able learner so your head doesn't explode trying to get the skills sorted. Wrap up with swordsage, monk, psychic warrior, and the ToB prestige classes and you should only have a single level to fill in with a divine caster for RKV requirements, probably divine crusader for that.

[bean illus]

Casters are soft. Never ending 0 bab levels reduce the chances of living until cosmic power comes.

As always, 7 levels of Cleric fixes those bab issues. Of course, 7 levels of 0 bab would need some +1 bab, so divine power would come late, but it's doable.

Here's a partial list of ways to get past caster level 7.

Prestige Paladin: +1 bab
Abjurant Champion (divine: pg 52), +1 bab

Most of these next grant a bonus domain.

Church Inquisitor CD, p. 26, EL 4
Reqs: Lawful good or lawful neutral, KA 4, KR 4 ranks , Spellcraft 4, Will +3, zone of truth (2nd) as a divine spell

Divine Oracle CD, p. 34, EL 6
Reqs: KR 8, SF-KR, 2 divination spells.

Ruathar RotW, EL 6-7 spell, or 7 skill/bab
Reqs: BAB +6, OR any skill 9 ranks, OR
3rd-level spells.

Seeker of the Misty Isle CD, EL 6/8/13
Reqs: Elf or Half-Elf, KR 4, Survival 8
2nd-level divine spells.

Sacred Exorcist CD, EL 8
Reqs: Kn planes 10, Kn rel 7
Alignment: Any good.
Spells: Able to cast dismissal (4th) or dispel evil (5th).

Divine Disciple FRCS, EL 8-9
Reqs: Diplo 5, KR 8, 4th-level divine spells, patron deity.

Contemplative CD, EL 11
Reqs: KR 13 ranks, 1st-level divine spells.

There's also Ordained Champion, for +1 bab and 2 fighter feats.

That's 11 levels. You need 7 that add +1 CL, and as many +1 bab levels as you need to be safe.

Let's say ...

Ranger
Fighter
Barbarian

+1 BAB class
Warblade
Cloistered Cleric

Prestige Paladin
Abjurant Champion

4 +1 CL prestige classes

At level 11 you have +7 bab. At level 12 you have divine power.

You are now free to take any 0 bab classes you wish. You're max cleric caster level is 15. Your effective bab is +20.

Add planar touchstone: luck domain, and you have miracle. This brings your spell level access to near other clerics, and miracle adds most arcane spells (7th and under) to your access.

There are countless ways to build this. It needs very few feats (if you get skill focus religion from frog Frog God's Fain). This, and full bab after 12th level, allow flexibility for the build to play almost any party role, from archer to bfc, to melee, to face.

[Maat Mons]

I posted an Ur Priest version of this somewehere many years back. I beleive I called the build "Mr. Fear of Commitment," or something. I can't find it now though.

You could probably also do one with Sublime Chord. It would be both easier and harder. Easier because arcan e PrCs don't conflict with each other as frequently as divine PrCs. (So many are exclusive to one deity.) Harder because you'd need more of them. (Not only would you have to advance the casting from the PrC, you'd also have to advance some base class up to 3rd level spells.)



I made some attempts to do a full 1 through 20 advancement of a base classes spellcasting, without using shenanigans to count as having higher level spalls for prerequisits, but I've become convince that it's impossible.

Looking at my notes, the closest I ever came to getting through those difficult first few levels was:

lesser drow

cleric of osiris (touchstone, skill focus, water focus) [2 flaws]
drow paragon
paragnostic apostle (1 metamagic)
church inquisitor
darkwater knight
holt warden (1 feat)

And the problem with that is ... wait, does that work? Did I succeed and just forget about it? Or did I find a rules hangup with it that I'm not seeing right now?

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if psionics might be an easier way to do this? There are not as many psionic prestige classes, but "practiced manifester" is nicer for psionics than "practiced spellcaster" is for spellcasters, because of the way that psionics work. So pick 5 base psionic classes (for power points, armour proficiencies, weapons proficiencies, etc.) and then use prestige classes to up the one you like (psion, perhaps), take practiced manifester, and there you go.

I guess it depends on how happy the OP is with early entry shenanigans. If the OP is cool with those, then the psionic idea isn't as great an alternative. If the OP is not cool with those, then I think it might be worth a shot to go the psionic route.