Descent into avernus: TPK - now what?

[ironkid]

Yesterday while playing Descent into Avernus there was a TPK. It wasn't even on the tough encounters in the book - I had the players fullfill sidequests to reach level 3 before entering the dead three dungeon. Longs Story short, a trio of Shadow Mastiffs TPKd the party JUUUUST barely - only one mastiff stands, and has exactly one HP (and yes, they were fighting in shadowy conditions - a dark alley durind a dark and stormy day). There's a SLIGHT chance that the cavalry arrives, but very slight - a player that didn't attend MIGHT arrive in time and MIGHT save the day. But by the looks of it, its very likely the group is dead (If said player indeed arrives in time, its still likely the remaining mastiffs kill him)

Sooooooo Im tempted to actually send Baldur's gate to Hell!!!:nale: Fix the adventure so it goes on from there. I'm not sure what to do with the characters tho. Make most everyone make new characters? Do something with the dropped characters? I'm not eager to deus ex machina save them - they were fighting in a very dangerous part of the city, and they knew it.

Just for reference: the party made very, very poor desitions during this particular combat, and the dice were witht the hounds. I think I managed the dogs properly: they became invisible but mostly stayed where they were - tactics made by smart beast, but still a beast, they didnt bite and moved away after becoming invisible for instance. The party had 5-6 2-level chars, while the mastiffs had one alpha and to regular ones. Ummm, do you think this was an unbalanced encounter??? :elan:

Any comments are welcome!

[Stangler]

New one shot for level 7 characters where they have to free the captives from a prison in hell.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe offer the player a choice? Make it's clear to players that they can choose, as players, between continuing with these PCs (somehow, as dead creatures) or ending the campaign on a loss, and starting a new one. (Possibly a re-do of Descent Into Avernus, if they think they've learned from their mistakes and want to do it again better.) Majority vote wins, and the DM gets to break any ties.

Sometimes getting a do-over from the beginning is a fun way to learn to play the game. (C.f. Roguelikes and arcade games.)

[jaappleton]

I'm going to put spoilers in this just in case.

Given how he wants to overthrow Zariel, its very possible Bel would take interest in them. Even though they're low level characters, perhaps he sees some potential for them to play a part in his plot to gain control over Avernus?

Not that he himself would show up to save them. But he has many agents... Many agents indeed...

[HolyDraconus]

If i was in your shoes it would hinge on one of two things: is Descent a once done nothing follows campaign or leading off point. If one and done leave em dead and roll up new characters. If a stepping point, give them the stats of a lemure (but keep wis, cha and int) and have them bargain their way out of hell, one toe at a time. The book is fun imo and has a decent hook to keep playing as is, you can make this death another one.

[Sigreid]

I'd give the players a choice between abandoning Avernus and doing your city sent to hell idea with new characters for the players.

[Mr. Wonderful]

You have a great option in keeping with the spirit of the module - send the characters to Avernus after their death.

While they may not be Evil, most adventurers are likely to have fallen prey to the sins of Pride and Anger, which is what Avernus draws, and punishes. For those strongly drawn to Good or other deities you can have their representatives demand that these folk be returned so they might go to Elysium or whatever. Successfully concluding the adventure could be the deal struck for release from this bondage. (This is no less beliveable than the way the module sends the party there.)

Plus there are all sorts of powerful creatures there who have - reasons - why they might be returned to free will and not sent as lemures to the front line of the Blood War. So you can have a new Session Zero with each character to figure out why and they are still able to continue. If a player doesn't think their character would do this, have them roll up someone new for the party to meet in Eltural.

There are a few things in the module passed over that they need access to, or to wrap up, but I'm sure you can figure that out.

And you can railroad the heck out of the party with a clear conscience!

[Unoriginal]

The module itself gives the PCs an out when something like this happens:

An Archdevil can make a downed character get the equivalent of a nat 20 death save, and there are several Archdevils who would be interested in a bargain with the PCs. Notably Bel, as said above.





While they may not be Evil, most adventurers are likely to have fallen prey to the sins of Pride and Anger, which is what Avernus draws, and punishes.

That's not how Avernus or any of the Nine Hells work. At least not this edition.

You end up in Hell if you're lawful evil or if your soul is bound to it by a pact or other powerful magic, and where you end up is not themed after the Seven Deadly Sins (some of the evil you did during your lifetime can influence in what devil form you end up, though).

[Mercureality]

Two of those is a "deadly" encounter, so throwing three of them at the party, and buffing one to an Alpha in conditions that are heavily favorable to the mastiffs, while the party was also under strength, might have been a bit much. An optimized and skilled party could probably handle them with some close calls or downed party members, but that doesn't sound like the party you had. You said the dice were against the party, but that's kind of the mastiff's whole schtick: impose disadvantage via invisibility and terrifying howl, and gain advantage from prone.

Anyway, would the mastiffs stick around and finish them off? Or figure that downing them is enough and run back to master, job done? If the latter, you can have their errant party member arrive just in time to start saving them, but call for death saves as they are desperately trying to triage the wounded. If some die, that's the cost and they can roll up new characters. Alternatively, if the mastiffs were working for an organization, you could have the players be taken prisoner pending interrogation/sacrifice/etc. and let the straggling party member help them stage an escape, perhaps.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The
That's not how Avernus or any of the Nine Hells work. At least not this edition.

You end up in Hell if you're lawful evil or if your soul is bound to it by a pact or other powerful magic, and where you end up is not themed after the Seven Deadly Sins (some of the evil you did during your lifetime can influence in what devil form you end up, though).

The PC group's dharma or destiny, binds them to the Companion.
Wherever the Companion is, the PC group will wind up there, eventually.
Plot Problem solved.

I think the idea of sending the Party to Avernus is splendid.

I might even leave the PC group, unconscious, their bodies stable back in Baldur's Gate. This way the group can "wake up" from Hell to find Baldur's Gate in a state of Civil War.

Descent to Avernus, like most WOTC modules in 5e, needs a denouement.
This change in fortune, the TPK, sets up a nice one...like the hobbits returning to the Shire in LotR.

Send them to Hell😈

[Hellpyre]

Two of those is a "deadly" encounter, so throwing three of them at the party, and buffing one to an Alpha in conditions that are heavily favorable to the mastiffs, while the party was also under strength, might have been a bit much.

For what it's worth, two of them only makes a Hard encounter, and even the third only just bumps it past Deadly, given a party of 6 PCs. Still a rough encounter, but it shouldn't have been near TPK territory if the PCs were running on full tanks. If, as I think the OP implied, there was only 5 present, it is in the range where it gets a little dicey, but only if the party made the poor decision to not focus their fire. It depends a bit on what the overall party makeup was, but they should have been able to avoid cascading failure if they went nova when frontliners got low.

[Unoriginal]

Yesterday while playing Descent into Avernus there was a TPK. It wasn't even on the tough encounters in the book - I had the players fullfill sidequests to reach level 3 before entering the dead three dungeon. Longs Story short, a trio of Shadow Mastiffs TPKd the party JUUUUST barely - only one mastiff stands, and has exactly one HP (and yes, they were fighting in shadowy conditions - a dark alley durind a dark and stormy day). There's a SLIGHT chance that the cavalry arrives, but very slight - a player that didn't attend MIGHT arrive in time and MIGHT save the day. But by the looks of it, its very likely the group is dead (If said player indeed arrives in time, its still likely the remaining mastiffs kill him)

Sooooooo Im tempted to actually send Baldur's gate to Hell!!!:nale: Fix the adventure so it goes on from there. I'm not sure what to do with the characters tho. Make most everyone make new characters? Do something with the dropped characters? I'm not eager to deus ex machina save them - they were fighting in a very dangerous part of the city, and they knew it.

Did the PCs handle the Vanthampur family? 'cause Baldur's Gate won't go to Hell without them to do it.

Well, unless the Tiamat cultists decide to copy Zariel's scheme...


Regardless, keep in mind that Baldur's Gate going to Hell means that now the Dead Three are in Avernus *in person*.

[Valmark]

Honestly, the dungeon doesn't really need 3rd level- we completed it at level 2 in five without rests (courtesy of the DM) buuuut skipped two encounters. Tangent aside...

My first thought would be the Deus Ex option, but since you don't seem to want it...

Start over IMO, you' re still basically at the beginning. Not sure how long do your sessions last but it shouldn't require more then 2 or 3 to get back there (we got there in 1 session but we also play for something like 9 hours straight when possible). Ending up in Avernus would skip lots of content that should have been there- it'll also leave them underleveled for the next parts.

[Sigreid]

Funnily enough now that I think about it we had a TPK at the same dungeon. In our case, the party failed a stealth check when sneaking up on a little old lady. When I went down the old lady's spell list, there was fireball right there...and she had initiative. "Ok everyone, we're making new characters and starting over".

[Unoriginal]

Hold on, when did the shadow mastiff encounter happen? I can't remember it in the module.

If it's still in the Dungeon of the Dead Three, then Captain Zodge will just send another group of adventurers to handle it. Or send a squad of Flaming Fist, if the PCs can't solve the issue in a whole week.

[Valmark]

Funnily enough now that I think about it we had a TPK at the same dungeon. In our case, the party failed a stealth check when sneaking up on a little old lady. When I went down the old lady's spell list, there was fireball right there...and she had initiative. "Ok everyone, we're making new characters and starting over".

How did you handle it the time after?

We personally didn't deal with it- DM decided she wasn't willing to Fireball herself while she didn't know wether it could kill us or not and we novaed her before she could change her mind (the room is too small to avoid taking it to the face herself).


Hold on, when did the shadow mastiff encounter happen? I can't remember it in the module.

If it's still in the Dungeon of the Dead Three, then Captain Zodge will just send another group of adventurers to handle it. Or send a squad of Flaming Fist, if the PCs can't solve the issue in a whole week.

There isn't such an encounter in the book before the dungeon (nor side quests that I can recall) so I think it was handmade.

I don't know much after deciding to go the the Villa so could be after it (I don't even know if we'll get there, our DM pretty much ****ed up everything after that dungeon).

[Sigreid]

How did you handle it the time after?

We personally didn't deal with it- DM decided she wasn't willing to Fireball herself while she didn't know wether it could kill us or not and we novaed her before she could change her mind (the room is too small to avoid taking it to the face herself).



First time through she was able to toss it down a corridor. One character survived but was unconscious, until the celling collapsed on him. Second time through they used meta knowledge and instead of trying to sneak up on her they just charged her full speed, closing the distance and making fireball a bad move. I was ok with them gaming the encounter as I didn't want to start again.

[RogueJK]

Not that he himself would show up to save them. But he has many agents... Many agents indeed...

As does...
Tiamat

[Valmark]

As does...
Tiamat

This reminds me- the party could make a deal with Tiamat. She kicks them back into Baldur's Gate safe and sound but have to recover her treasure (which is already in the Dungeon of the Dead Three) and give it to the cultists (that are going to come say hello anyway).

Put a Geas on them so that they don't think of doing their own thing (nobody expects a fiend to be nice) and you can go on with the whole content.

[jaappleton]

As does...
Tiamat

I'd forgotten!

Sending Torogar Steelfist, or Krull the Cleric, would make some sense. Krull would naturally have the means of healing the party, unlike Torogar.

[RogueJK]

That's how I'd do it, by involving her agents. It wouldn't derail the natural flow of that portion of the module.

[Thalnawr]

So, I guess there are a few questions to answer:

1) Do the players want to continue with these characters? If so, then there's always a way to keep things going.
2) Are they bleeding out in an area of the city where "concerned citizens" can hear the racket and drive off the remaining mastiff? Unless the mastiffs belong to someone whose business none of the locals want to interfere with or the locals are all uncaring jackwagons, you could probably have the locals save them by driving it off with loud noises. Or have them help the remaining party member if they show to save their friends.
3) Or you could use a "deal with a devil" situation.
4) Or do the "drag the city to hell" scenario. Or literally whatever else works for your group.

[Yakk]

The party had 5-6 2-level chars, while the mastiffs had one alpha and to regular ones. Ummm, do you think this was an unbalanced encounter??? :elan:
I'll use my math. You only have 5 PCs, as one was missing.

5 level 2 characters is 10 encounter points (just add up levels).

Easy: 2
Medium: 2.5
Hard: 3.3
Deadly: 4

A shadow mastiff is CR 2. So is the alpha. Lovely rounding. So that is 6 encounter points.

That is 50% higher than Deadly.

Throw in favorable conditions for the hounds, and you should expect a full-power party to have a risk of a dead PC, and TPK is on the books.


Encounter Point System.

Map Level and CR like this:
CR 1/8 is 1/3
CR 1/4 is 1/2
CR 1/2 is 2/3
CR 1 is 1.2

Add 1 encounter point if level or CR 5+, 11+, or 17+ (ie, add 1 per tier).
Add 1 encounter point per level or CR above 10 (so a level 15/CR 15 being is 15+1 (5+)+1(11+), +5 (5 levels above 10) = 22 encounter points).
Add 3 encounter points per CR over 20 (in addition to above)

Do no encounter size multiplication.

Budget:
1/5 party points is easy
1/4 party points is medium
1/3 party points is hard
40% of party points is deadly

This system generates results very, very similar to the DMG one in "simple" encounters, but handles going from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 players "continuously" (and not with steps like the DMG system does), handles mixed-CR monster groups naturally (instead of via fudging).

At its core this system is "add up CR", but there are power bumps at 5, 11, 17 and 11-20 and 21+ that it scales with. Adding up CR (with these tweaks) emulates adding up XP then applying encounter size multipliers.

[MrStabby]

Ideally, play a different campaign. Well, from my perspective.

Not that Avernus is bad (ok, some problems, but what doesnt?) but rather let character death be meaningful. Failure is an option. The stakes were real.

If you roll up for Curse of Strahd (or whatever) next week you get to keep playing, but you do so with players that appreciate every last encounter they survive.

Level 2 characters are relatively disposable. Yes, some people will be invested but it's a relatively low cost.

Then come back and do Avernus after. You just change the order of things to let character death and campaign failure feel more real.

[HappyDaze]

TPKs offer a great time to suggest dropping D&D and picking up a different game. Give it a try, you just might find that other games are better. If not, you can always make up new D&D characters and do the same thing again.

EDIT: It's also a great time to get a new DM/GM and/or to ditch players that you've found you don't want at the table for whatever reason.

[SirGraystone]

On page 31 there's an NPC, a cloaked figure (bottom right of the page) that can meet the PCs, have her meet them earlier in the story and save them now.

I would have her come in the alley feeds one or two PC with potions of healing (or make her a paladin and just healing them) to revive a few characters so they can help the others, then have her leave in the shadow when a patrol of the Flaming Fist come to investigate the battle. Leaving with a smile and promise to meet them later when there's no Flaming Fist around.

[ironkid]

Thanks for all the help. Most everything here will potentially make it for my game.

For starters tho I went for the faustian method: I've been making one-on-one sessions with the fallen players, sans the warlock (her spiritual credit check didn't pass). In those nano-sessions Bel appears to them, shows them a fallen Baldurs gate, and instead of a deal, he offers them a wager: they get three chances to roll a 20 as a death saving throw (they have to decide wether to use this before rolling).

The wager? a simple one: Baldur's Gate has to stay in the material plane for 50 years. If this happens, the players get the mentioned prize scott free. But if Baldurs Gate goes anywhere, Bel gets them. Something I should mention is that, for the high lords of hell, a sinner's soul doesn't mean much (they have to be careful as they walk lest they step on one - gross!) Ah, but a pure soul - THAT'S valuable. For one, how do you bargain with angels? Gold? nah. Magic items? Anything they would actually want is something the devils wouldn't want to part with. A poor soul in disgrace, that offered everything to save a whole city for damnation? so, soooooooo tragic!

Bell offers them a bloody cup, inside of which the's three larva for the players to digest. Whenever they're making death saving throws, they can spend one of them to awaken, sending the larva to the outer plaines in their stead. The last session will be in a few hours, it's been rather fun to make this nanosessions to know the characters and how they react to this (none so far have asked the devil his name). One refused and Bel told him that ih he wasn't willing to take one for the city, maybe his soul wasn't that valuable anyway. Two accepted, and decided they will use one larva right away; and so they will wake and deal with the last mastiff, who's currently invisible and at 1 hp...

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for all the help. Most everything here will potentially make it for my game.

For starters tho I went for the faustian method: I've been making one-on-one sessions with the fallen players, sans the warlock (her spiritual credit check didn't pass). In those nano-sessions Bel appears to them, shows them a fallen Baldurs gate, and instead of a deal, he offers them a wager: they get three chances to roll a 20 as a death saving throw (they have to decide wether to use this before rolling).

The wager? a simple one: Baldur's Gate has to stay in the material plane for 50 years. If this happens, the players get the mentioned prize scott free. But if Baldurs Gate goes anywhere, Bel gets them. Something I should mention is that, for the high lords of hell, a sinner's soul doesn't mean much (they have to be careful as they walk lest they step on one - gross!) Ah, but a pure soul - THAT'S valuable. For one, how do you bargain with angels? Gold? nah. Magic items? Anything they would actually want is something the devils wouldn't want to part with. A poor soul in disgrace, that offered everything to save a whole city for damnation? so, soooooooo tragic!

Bell offers them a bloody cup, inside of which the's three larva for the players to digest. Whenever they're making death saving throws, they can spend one of them to awaken, sending the larva to the outer plaines in their stead. The last session will be in a few hours, it's been rather fun to make this nanosessions to know the characters and how they react to this (none so far have asked the devil his name). One refused and Bel told him that ih he wasn't willing to take one for the city, maybe his soul wasn't that valuable anyway. Two accepted, and decided they will use one larva right away; and so they will wake and deal with the last mastiff, who's currently invisible and at 1 hp...

Sounds fun.

For the PC who refused, I would have Tiamat appear and give her divine assistance instead. Because someone who tells a silver-tongued devil to piss off even when they're about to die has the guts to become a great worshiper of the Dragon Goddess, and she's willing to make a worthwhile investment.

Would be interesting if Arkhan the Cruel starts worrying about his Queen's new project, too, while the rest of the cult observes how it goes.

[Throne12]

Yesterday while playing Descent into Avernus there was a TPK. It wasn't even on the tough encounters in the book - I had the players fullfill sidequests to reach level 3 before entering the dead three dungeon. Longs Story short, a trio of Shadow Mastiffs TPKd the party JUUUUST barely - only one mastiff stands, and has exactly one HP (and yes, they were fighting in shadowy conditions - a dark alley durind a dark and stormy day). There's a SLIGHT chance that the cavalry arrives, but very slight - a player that didn't attend MIGHT arrive in time and MIGHT save the day. But by the looks of it, its very likely the group is dead (If said player indeed arrives in time, its still likely the remaining mastiffs kill him)

Sooooooo Im tempted to actually send Baldur's gate to Hell!!!:nale: Fix the adventure so it goes on from there. I'm not sure what to do with the characters tho. Make most everyone make new characters? Do something with the dropped characters? I'm not eager to deus ex machina save them - they were fighting in a very dangerous part of the city, and they knew it.

Just for reference: the party made very, very poor desitions during this particular combat, and the dice were witht the hounds. I think I managed the dogs properly: they became invisible but mostly stayed where they were - tactics made by smart beast, but still a beast, they didnt bite and moved away after becoming invisible for instance. The party had 5-6 2-level chars, while the mastiffs had one alpha and to regular ones. Ummm, do you think this was an unbalanced encounter??? :elan:

Any comments are welcome!

1.Did they all fail there death saves?
2. If they are working for the flaming fist. They can take the dead pc to a cleric to get razed.
3. Think about the fun. If they like there characters whats the problem with a deus ex machina. I always have them come with a price they pay then or I collect later at a opptune time.

[MrStabby]

You could run a brief mini campaign with new characters set in the same region at a similar time. For totally reasonable plot purposes their new characters happen accross the alley as their current characters are bleeding out. They can then chose to save their current ones and switch back... or they have some new characters in the same place at the same level able to pick up the quest from where the others dropped it.

Who has failed which death saves can be determined by who wants to keep their original character.

[Mr. Wonderful]

That's not how Avernus or any of the Nine Hells work. At least not this edition.

You end up in Hell if you're lawful evil or if your soul is bound to it by a pact or other powerful magic, and where you end up is not themed after the Seven Deadly Sins (some of the evil you did during your lifetime can influence in what devil form you end up, though).

Wow, I'll give you credit: your user name REALLY checks out.

For the rest of us, don't forget the circumstances of the party's original background p 208. Most of those are damnable and no doubt for a reason.

[Valmark]

Wow, I'll give you credit: your user name REALLY checks out.

For the rest of us, don't forget the circumstances of the party's original background p 208. Most of those are damnable and no doubt for a reason.

I don't think correcting you means they don't have originality.

Also wow, I didn't know there was that section. Our DM didn't have us do any such thing.