Workshopping Motives and Manners for Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin

[thoroughlyS]

I am a big fan of the cosmology of D&D, and really enjoy all the lore surround the Outer Planes. This includes a fondness for many of the outsiders presented across the various monster splats, particularly the "exemplars" who are intrinsically tied to two major axes of alignment. I really want to make these creatures have a presence in my world: stories that my players can hear, or encounters they can have.

When I started this thread, I wanted to ask about how best to incorporate Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin into my world. I want to utilize them as easily as imps or succubi are commonly splashed into stories. My problem was, I didn't really have much direction to go on, as there is very little that defines these groups beyong "they commonly enter the Prime Material to fight various fiends". As I composed my thoughts, I was able to formulate some ideas, and I wanted to present them to the playground for feedback.

Archons come into the world to promote civility. They are Lawful Good, and so work to uphold Good communities. An Archon might fight alongside city guards who stand against an insurmountable invasion, or might oppose a coup against a just leader.

Meanwhile, Guardinals promote prosperity. They are Neutral Good, and so work to ease the suffering of Good communities. A guardinal might warn a city of an incoming natural disaster (and might work to fight it off), or might purge a poison from a person, or might establish a food source for a fledgling community.

Finally, Eladrin promote liberty. They are Chaotic Good, and so work to oppose Evil communities. An Eladrin might spirit away a noble who has been arranged to be married against their will, or might protect a performer who speaks out against the tyranny in their city, or might guide refugees fleeing persecution.



Are these directions strong or evocative? Do they establish why these creatures embody their respective alignment? Do you have any examples of how YOU think a given exemplar would operate?

[noob]

I am a big fan of the cosmology of D&D, and really enjoy all the lore surround the Outer Planes. This includes a fondness for many of the outsiders presented across the various monster splats, particularly the "exemplars" who are intrinsically tied to two major axes of alignment. I really want to make these creatures have a presence in my world: stories that my players can hear, or encounters they can have.

When I started this thread, I wanted to ask about how best to incorporate Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin into my world. I want to utilize them as easily as imps or succubi are commonly splashed into stories. My problem was, I didn't really have much direction to go on, as there is very little that defines these groups beyong "they commonly enter the Prime Material to fight various fiends". As I composed my thoughts, I was able to formulate some ideas, and I wanted to present them to the playground for feedback.

Archons come into the world to promote civility. They are Lawful Good, and so work to uphold Good communities. An Archon might fight alongside city guards who stand against an insurmountable invasion, or might oppose a coup against a just leader.

Meanwhile, Guardinals promote prosperity. They are Neutral Good, and so work to ease the suffering of Good communities. A guardinal might warn a city of an incoming natural disaster (and might work to fight it off), or might purge a poison from a person, or might establish a food source for a fledgling community.

Finally, Eladrin promote liberty. They are Chaotic Good, and so work to oppose Evil communities. An Eladrin might spirit away a noble who has been arranged to be married against their will, or might protect a performer who speaks out against the tyranny in their city, or might guide refugees fleeing persecution.



Are these directions strong or evocative? Do they establish why these creatures embody their respective alignment? Do you have any examples of how YOU think a given exemplar would operate?

I could see the varied good outsiders cooperate to retrieve souls that have been placed in one of the evil afterlives for wrong reasons (ex: someone using an evil ritual to send good people to the abyss)
You could also have any of the lawful outsiders consider that redeeming evil people is an important thing (lawful because they are more likely to think that imposing their view on the others is the right way)
And any good outsider realise that by showing mercy and compassion to people that you can make them realise the importance of those virtues (ex: go save the lives of evil people: not only will they think "the side of good is great they sent people to save us" but it also denies the access to those souls for the forces of evil for a while)
So I could see the "save lives of people in danger" to be a rule that in your example guardinal outsiders applies to everyone that is not majorly evil(like "personally kills people for fun" kind of evil)

[thoroughlyS]

You could also have any of the lawful outsiders consider that redeeming evil people is an important thing (lawful because they are more likely to think that imposing their view on the others is the right way)
I really like that, a lot.




So I could see the "save lives of people in danger" to be a rule that in your example guardinal outsiders applies to everyone that is not majorly evil(like "personally kills people for fun" kind of evil)
I agree that saving lives would be a kind of "across-the-board" move for celestials, that wasn't exactly the focus I was going for. In my mind, Archons work to foster unity, and Eladrin work to foster freedom, but Guardinals don't really have a "focus" like that. They just work to preserve life through good works, like providing care or disaster prevention.

[Malabolg]

A thread over at the Gaming Den assigned differing moral philosophies to each Upper Plane - I think Arcadia got deontological ethics, Celestia got good as giving for the sake of others, Elysium got good as the alleviation and prevention of suffering, etc. Made it very easy to make a story about an archon to care about and champion different things compared to a story about a guardinal. With the added bonus that it made a story about conflict between the Upper Planes easier, because going past D&D's problematic alignment system straight to moral philosophy made it a lot easier (for me, at least) to grok how, say, an archon and a guardinal can fight side-by-side against evil without issue, but if the wrong topic is brought up in conversation afterwards, they can totally be screaming at each other half an hour later.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Archons come into the world to promote civility. They are Lawful Good, and so work to uphold Good communities. An Archon might fight alongside city guards who stand against an insurmountable invasion, or might oppose a coup against a just leader.

As the saying goes, "Lawful Good is not Lawful Nice," so "civility" isn't really the right term here, either in the personal sense of politeness or in the societal sense of civilized conduct; phrasing it that way makes them sound a lot more passive and status-quo-supporting than they really are. Archons don't just defend civilization from marauding fiends, they seek out allies to go take the fight to evil at its source wherever it may be. Archons don't just defend lawful leaders from being overthrown, they seek to establish actively Lawful Good governments even at the cost of replacing lawfully-chosen-but-morally-gray or law-upholding-but-tepidly-supportive rulers.

Of the three celestial varieties, the archons are the ones who hold that their ethos is The Right Way To Be and that reality would be a better place if everyone just did What Is Right, so they're the ones most likely to strive toward a Good goal or against an Evil threat. if you have an evil thingy over yonder that's definitely bad but a lesser or less-immediate threat than some others closer to home, or a long-term task that can only be achieved with great unity and perseverance, it's the archons who are most likely to ride forth to do something about it because they firmly believe that Evil And Chaos Must Be Vanquished regardless of scale or proximity. (In general, archons tend to like Immutable Truths and other Statements Expressed With Capital Letters. :smallwink:)


Meanwhile, Guardinals promote prosperity. They are Neutral Good, and so work to ease the suffering of Good communities. A guardinal might warn a city of an incoming natural disaster (and might work to fight it off), or might purge a poison from a person, or might establish a food source for a fledgling community.

This is a pretty good fit for guardinals, as generalized altruism and helpfulness is definitely something they do more than archons and eladrin.

Something else to keep in mind is that the guardinals are the celestial variety most likely to believe in and act towards redeeming Evil. Archons are more likely to take a "You should be subject to justice for your misdeeds" stance while eladrin are more likely to take a "You chose Evil, and that's terrible, but you're free to make that mistake" stance, but it's the guardinals who are likely to take the aretological stance that exhibiting virtue as an example and helping others achieve the same virtue is a worthy goal. This isn't to say that archons don't take on the task of redemption, that eladrin aren't willing to meddle if they deem it necessary, or that guardinals just want to give all villains hugs, but it's a general trend based on the individual celestials as written and going by the real-world ethical philosophies to which Law, Neutrality, and Chaos correspond.


Finally, Eladrin promote liberty. They are Chaotic Good, and so work to oppose Evil communities. An Eladrin might spirit away a noble who has been arranged to be married against their will, or might protect a performer who speaks out against the tyranny in their city, or might guide refugees fleeing persecution.

This is definitely a good summary of eladrin philosophy.

The other big theme with eladrin is that they're the ones most likely to attempt to enable Good. Being big believers in freedom doesn't just mean believing in freedom from outside forces, it also means believing in freedom to believe and act as desired, which means highly valuing personal agency and self-determination. An eladrin might not go carry out some task itself if, by inspiring, guiding, teaching, equipping, or otherwise aiding someone else, they can accomplish the same task while achieving a greater good--arming the example noble's true love with the weapons and training needed to rescue their kidnapped beloved so that they gain the confidence to oppose the noble's parents and the skill needed to defend the noble in future, say, or guiding the example performer to someone with similar views so that they can learn from each other and work together to further their cause on their own. This is in contrast to archons, who are more the "thou shalt" quest-giving type or guardinals who are more the direct do-gooder type, though again these are trends and not always true of every single celestial of every type.