D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Deep Dive Series: Stone Shape

[Bilbron]

Did you know that Stone Shape is one of the most powerful spells in the game? It's super confusing, though. Join us for a deep dive into this fascinating spell!

8:18

Brand new here so can't post URLs, but check out D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room on youtube!

[MaxWilson]

Here is the URL: https://youtu.be/8N21IoM1Lqg

Feedback: thought-provoking. A good 1-action no-concentration defense spell is valuable. I was hoping for more discussion of one of its primary downsides (need for a source of stone) and ways around it, but it was a good video. I appreciated the discussion of different DM interpretations.

Nitpick: it's clear from Crawford's Tweet that even Crawford doesn't intend the so-called "4.) Strict RAI" interpretation. Crawford explicitly calls out that when he says "space" he means "Medium/Small/Tiny" and not literally the exact volume of space the stone occupies. Therefore even Crawford is using what the video calls "3.) Relaxed RAI." The nice thing about discussing all four interpretations is that we don't have to argue about what the RAW actually is, we just choose the right tactics for the table we're actually at.

One more point: it's worth comparing this with Meld Into Stone because they fill similar niches. Meld Into Stone is cheaper (3rd level) and probably provides more inches of rock as protection. Stone Shape doesn't require as much solid stone to work (I guess you could conceivably make it work just by carrying around 200 lb. of granite with you, about 1 cubic foot, vs. the 5 tons or so of granite you'd need to fill a 4' diameter 6' tall cylinder of stone within which to hide via Meld). Also, wizards don't get Meld Into Stone, only Stone Shape.

It's definitely a spell my Shepherd Druids will keep in mind from now on. Thanks!

[solidork]

When I first got this spell I was spitballing ideas with my DM and I was like "Can I compress a 5ft block of stone so it's tiny but has the same weight?" and he said yes but I haven't figured out a way to abuse it yet.

Edit: But yeah, I used it from time to time to make cover and it was effective!

[noob]

When I first got this spell I was spitballing ideas with my DM and I was like "Can I compress a 5ft block of stone so it's tiny but has the same weight?" and he said yes but I haven't figured out a way to abuse it yet.

Edit: But yeah, I used it from time to time to make cover and it was effective!

For abusing super dense stone note that it probably allows traps that are much more dangerous and also allows to substitute for lead when you need something heavy.

[Monster Manuel]

When I first got this spell I was spitballing ideas with my DM and I was like "Can I compress a 5ft block of stone so it's tiny but has the same weight?" and he said yes but I haven't figured out a way to abuse it yet.

Edit: But yeah, I used it from time to time to make cover and it was effective!

Another way you could use/abuse this ruling is that a 500lb block of granite won't fit in a bag of holding, or similar, but a compressed Tiny chunk of granite would. Need stone to shape in the middle of the ocean, or whatever? Upend your super-dense pebble out of your Bag of Holding and go to town.

[MaxWilson]

Another way you could use/abuse this ruling is that a 500lb block of granite won't fit in a bag of holding, or similar, but a compressed Tiny chunk of granite would. Need stone to shape in the middle of the ocean, or whatever? Upend your super-dense pebble out of your Bag of Holding and go to town.

Out of curiosity, how are you going to get the six-ton pebble into the bag in the first place?

[Bilbron]

Feedback: thought-provoking. A good 1-action no-concentration defense spell is valuable. I was hoping for more discussion of one of its primary downsides (need for a source of stone) and ways around it, but it was a good video. I appreciated the discussion of different DM interpretations.

Nitpick: it's clear from Crawford's Tweet that even Crawford doesn't intend the so-called "4.) Strict RAI" interpretation. Crawford explicitly calls out that when he says "space" he means "Medium/Small/Tiny" and not literally the exact volume of space the stone occupies. Therefore even Crawford is using what the video calls "3.) Relaxed RAI." The nice thing about discussing all four interpretations is that we don't have to argue about what the RAW actually is, we just choose the right tactics for the table we're actually at.

One more point: it's worth comparing this with Meld Into Stone because they fill similar niches. Meld Into Stone is cheaper (3rd level) and probably provides more inches of rock as protection. Stone Shape doesn't require as much solid stone to work (I guess you could conceivably make it work just by carrying around 200 lb. of granite with you, about 1 cubic foot, vs. the 5 tons or so of granite you'd need to fill a 4' diameter 6' tall cylinder of stone within which to hide via Meld). Also, wizards don't get Meld Into Stone, only Stone Shape.

It's definitely a spell my Shepherd Druids will keep in mind from now on. Thanks!

Excellent points, thanks for the feedback! I agree that your interpretation of JC is most likely, but I thought a DM that really tries to keep a powergamer in check could easily call for the Strict RAI version. I'm grateful that my own DM uses the Relaxed RAI rules as I do think the intuitive interpretation of the spell is that the stone is just moved/reshaped and not reduced in volume.

In comparison to Meld w Stone, the problem with MwS is that you can't stay within its protection while also pumping out offensive spells... once you leave the AOE, the spell ends. You also can't see outside of the stone and your hearing is impaired. So it's more of a fully defensive spell for when you need to heal up and buff, but it makes it difficult to monitor the battle, and you can't use it as a fortified position to cast spells from as you can do with SS. As a ritual spell, it seems to me that MwS is intended to be the Cleric version of Tiny Hut that allows them safe long rests, and turning it into a combat spell is going to require a cooperative DM.

The need for stone is certainly important, and perhaps I should have mentioned that. The spell won't work in certain settings (I should note that the 5th level Creation spell is a much improved version of what I use SS for, that can create a steel (or better) fortified position at any time without worrying about the surroundings). In other settings, you can almost ALWAYS use it (I myself play in an Underdark campaign, for example).

Anyway, thanks for you comments!

[Bilbron]

Out of curiosity, how are you going to get the six-ton pebble into the bag in the first place?

This is my issue with this tactic. Incredibly difficult logistics just to manipulate it (into the bag, out of the bag, how to insert it into a trap, etc.) and almost no obvious ways to use it offensively so will require the cooperation of a DM, who are notoriously disagreeable when it comes to tactics that break their game.

I consider this one of those instances where offensive-minded players try to take a utility or defensive spell and attempt to turn it into bad offense.

[MaxWilson]

In comparison to Meld w Stone, the problem with MwS is that you can't stay within its protection while also pumping out offensive spells... once you leave the AOE, the spell ends. You also can't see outside of the stone and your hearing is impaired. So it's more of a fully defensive spell for when you need to heal up and buff, but it makes it difficult to monitor the battle, and you can't use it as a fortified position to cast spells from as you can do with SS.

I agree. I meant to call this out in my post in the paragraph comparing them, but I was on my phone and it looks like I must have forgotten or edited that part out of existence. Agreed, Meld Into Stone is a concentration-protector and self-buffer spell, but Stone Shape is better if you want to cast cantrips or Fireballs or something, as long as the stone is thick enough to protect you. Meld Into Stone is a good spell for Shepherd Druids; Stone Shape is better for Evokers. (As long as there is sufficient stone around.)


The need for stone is certainly important, and perhaps I should have mentioned that. The spell won't work in certain settings (I should note that the 5th level Creation spell is a much improved version of what I use SS for, that can create a steel (or better) fortified position at any time without worrying about the surroundings). In other settings, you can almost ALWAYS use it (I myself play in an Underdark campaign, for example).

Anyway, thanks for you comments!

Creation takes 1 minute to cast though, so unlike Stone Shape it's not usable as an action in combat.

Thanks for making the video and the thread! It was interesting.


This is my issue with this tactic. Incredibly difficult logistics just to manipulate it (into the bag, out of the bag, how to insert it into a trap, etc.) and almost no obvious ways to use it offensively so will require the cooperation of a DM, who are notoriously disagreeable when it comes to tactics that break their game.

I consider this one of those instances where offensive-minded players try to take a utility or defensive spell and attempt to turn it into bad offense.

To be fair, I don't think MonsterManuel was intending an offensive use, just trying to solve the problem of stone availability outside the Underdark (he mentioned oceans). He may have had your defensive use in mind, although there are other downsides too to encasing yourself in 6 tons of solid stone when you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean. :-)

[Bilbron]

Creation takes 1 minute to cast though, so unlike Stone Shape it's not usable as an action in combat.


Great catch regarding Creation... I don't have 5th level spells yet (one more level!) so haven't looked at them as closely as I probably should have. Fortunately you can also get Wall of Stone at that level which seems way more powerful than Creation!

[MaxWilson]

Great catch regarding Creation... I don't have 5th level spells yet (one more level!) so haven't looked at them as closely as I probably should have. Fortunately you can also get Wall of Stone at that level which seems way more powerful than Creation!

It has the same problem as Stone Shape though, in spades, because not only do you need a single boulder, you need a stone foundation solid enough to support a wall. In the Underdark it'll be fine, but in a forest...?

[Bilbron]

It has the same problem as Stone Shape though, in spades, because not only do you need a single boulder, you need a stone foundation solid enough to support a wall. In the Underdark it'll be fine, but in a forest...?

Yeah, for a forest campaign I'd probably look at Wall of Force. So many good 5th level spells!

[Deathtongue]

Great catch regarding Creation... I don't have 5th level spells yet (one more level!) so haven't looked at them as closely as I probably should have. Fortunately you can also get Wall of Stone at that level which seems way more powerful than Creation!You can use Malleable Illusions on Creation, though, which is why Illusionists are one of the few wizard subclasses that can compete with Chronurgist at T4.

[Thunderous Mojo]

You can use Malleable Illusions on Creation, though, which is why Illusionists are one of the few wizard subclasses that can compete with Chronurgist at T4.

While the synergy between Malleable Illusions and Creation is fun to play with,(" First it was a boutonnière, now it is a Adamantium crowbar, oops now it is a boutonnière again"), it is opaque as to why that combo somehow rivals the Chronurgist, and why specifically at Tier 4?

[da newt]

If you can find a source of coal and compress it, could you create diamonds? Can you make sand into glass? Can you create a stone plate mail (if you can compress and shape that means you can do anything a smith can, right)?

What is the definition of STONE? (a concretion of earthy or mineral matter ... is steel a mineral matter? )

[MaxWilson]

If you can find a source of coal and compress it, could you create diamonds? Can you make sand into glass? Can you create a stone plate mail (if you can compress and shape that means you can do anything a smith can, right)?

What is the definition of STONE? (a concretion of earthy or mineral matter ... is steel a mineral matter? )

In a Aristotelian world where Earth, Air, Water, and Fire are the elements, it's certainly possible that gemstones are not made out of the same substance as coal at all. They may just be made out of Diamond, and compressing coal may just get you a very dense Coal.

[Bilbron]

If you can find a source of coal and compress it, could you create diamonds? Can you make sand into glass? Can you create a stone plate mail (if you can compress and shape that means you can do anything a smith can, right)?

What is the definition of STONE? (a concretion of earthy or mineral matter ... is steel a mineral matter? )

You can ask your DM, you never know what they'll say. Stone armor would be HEAVY though (just because metal is heavier than stone doesn't mean that stone armor would be lighter because it would have to be way thicker).