Soul Manifester question

[ChaosStar]

Alright, so I was thinking of making a Totemist, since Meldshaping is a system I've only dipped my toes in before, and was reading the Incarnum handbook and saw the Soul Manifester prestige class. The comments on it says it's a King of Smack type class and I have a King of Smack type character who is using Psychic Warrior levels. My question is this, is the 2 levels of Totemist worth it if I already have a level of Barbarian and have 3 RHD from being a Lycanthrope? I know people here hate RHD, but I wanted to make a Wereleopard King of Smack. Character's stats are 19/25/19/13/18/12.

[Psyren]

Tying up 6 levels before you even start manifesting doesn't sound like the best build to me. I'm far from an expert on lycanthrope builds though.

[ChaosStar]

Some more questions regarding Soulmelds.

1. Does Improved Natural Attack (Claw) affect Girallion Arms' Totem Bind?
2. Is the Shoulder Bind best for Totem Avatar?
3. Does the Totem Avatar's Shoulder Bind affect Girallion Arms' Totem Bind?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to make a feline werecreature, forget leopard, use a Serval from Sandstorm. It's only 1 RHD, and gets all the standard special attacks. Its only feat is Weapon Finesse which it doesn't qualify for, so per the MM Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) that becomes a racial bonus feat and its first feat is instead a fitting +2/+2 skill feat such as Alertness or Stealthy.

Drop the Barbarian level. Use Ardent as your manifesting class. Taking Practiced Manifester allows you to learn higher level powers as an Ardent, since its manifester level rather than its class level determines the highest level powers it can learn. Always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), if possible use that to gain Claws of the Beast, otherwise use Hidden Talent (XPH p67) to get that.

RHD 1/ Totemist 2/ Ardent 2/ Soul Manifester is ideal, provided you can buy off the Lycanthrope level adjustment. If you want to dip other classes, grab a few Warshaper levels instead of Barbarian or anything else. If you're looking for something to take after Soul Manifester, try Slayer or Sanctified Mind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Another alternate for the lycanthrope template, depending on how much you want, is a combination of a level in the shapeshifting druid variant (PHBII) for the anthropomorphic animal form and the divine minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (refluffed as necessary) for the feral animal form. If you only want one form or the other, you only take the one you want. Use whatever 0 LA/RHD base race fits best with what abilities you want.

[ChaosStar]

If you want to make a feline werecreature, forget leopard, use a Serval from Sandstorm. It's only 1 RHD, and gets all the standard special attacks. Its only feat is Weapon Finesse which it doesn't qualify for, so per the MM Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) that becomes a racial bonus feat and its first feat is instead a fitting +2/+2 skill feat such as Alertness or Stealthy.

Drop the Barbarian level. Use Ardent as your manifesting class. Taking Practiced Manifester allows you to learn higher level powers as an Ardent, since its manifester level rather than its class level determines the highest level powers it can learn. Always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), if possible use that to gain Claws of the Beast, otherwise use Hidden Talent (XPH p67) to get that.

RHD 1/ Totemist 2/ Ardent 2/ Soul Manifester is ideal, provided you can buy off the Lycanthrope level adjustment. If you want to dip other classes, grab a few Warshaper levels instead of Barbarian or anything else. If you're looking for something to take after Soul Manifester, try Slayer or Sanctified Mind.

My reason to use Leopard is I want to use Leopard. The Barbarian level is for the City Brawler ACF. Ardents don't get Expansion, which is crucial to the build. Also just did a comparison. Leopard has 4 Strength, 2 Dexterity, and 2 Constitution more than Serval, each of which is important.

[Venger]

Some more questions regarding Soulmelds.

1. Does Improved Natural Attack (Claw) affect Girallion Arms' Totem Bind?
2. Is the Shoulder Bind best for Totem Avatar?
3. Does the Totem Avatar's Shoulder Bind affect Girallion Arms' Totem Bind?

1 yes
2 yes
3 yes

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My reason to use Leopard is I want to use Leopard. The Barbarian level is for the City Brawler ACF. Ardents don't get Expansion, which is crucial to the build. Also just did a comparison. Leopard has 4 Strength, 2 Dexterity, and 2 Constitution more than Serval, each of which is important.

The 2 HD you save going Serval can be reinvested into Warshaper, gaining you +4 Str and Con, immunity to stunning and critical hits, and the ability to make your natural attacks deal damage as though you were larger size, plus gain more natural weapon types.

You can learn Expansion from Expanded Knowledge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) if it's so important.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I really don't see how Soul Manifester is in any way fitting for a King of Smack build.
It's 1/2 BAB and d4 HD, its class features are focused on manifesting instead of melee and delaying your psywar progression hurts you more than your delayed access to soulmelds helps you.

Yes, you can do a Totemist/Ardent Soul Manifester and be reasonably competent in melee, but much of the power here comes from the fact that you don't lose manifester progression.
That doesn't make Soul Manifester a melee prc.

Neither the class itself nor the addition of totemist soulmelds really offer much to your build focus, especially considering that being a lycanthrope already gives you 3 natural weapons.
Do keep in mind that the things that make a King of Smack good focus entirely on his claws, so any non-claw extra natural weapons will be fairly weak.

The cost on the other hand is pretty substantial since you're delaying your everything for a fairly minor benefit and a couple tradeoffs that run opposite to what you want to do.

I could maybe see splashing two levels of Totemist just to bind Girallion Arms, but i doubt it'd be a significant powerup. Or any kind of powerup, really.
Any non-totem binds come way too late to make it an improvement even if you're not using RHD or Soul Manifester to get them even later.

[ChaosStar]

I really don't see how Soul Manifester is in any way fitting for a King of Smack build.
It's 1/2 BAB and d4 HD, its class features are focused on manifesting instead of melee and delaying your psywar progression hurts you more than your delayed access to soulmelds helps you.

Yes, you can do a Totemist/Ardent Soul Manifester and be reasonably competent in melee, but much of the power here comes from the fact that you don't lose manifester progression.
That doesn't make Soul Manifester a melee prc.

Neither the class itself nor the addition of totemist soulmelds really offer much to your build focus, especially considering that being a lycanthrope already gives you 3 natural weapons.
Do keep in mind that the things that make a King of Smack good focus entirely on his claws, so any non-claw extra natural weapons will be fairly weak.

The cost on the other hand is pretty substantial since you're delaying your everything for a fairly minor benefit and a couple tradeoffs that run opposite to what you want to do.

I could maybe see splashing two levels of Totemist just to bind Girallion Arms, but i doubt it'd be a significant powerup. Or any kind of powerup, really.
Any non-totem binds come way too late to make it an improvement even if you're not using RHD or Soul Manifester to get them even later.
Yeah, did not see the d4 hit die on Soul Manifester. The idea was basically Totemist for Girallion Arms and Soul Manifester to progress Essentia, Psionics, and get Totem Avatar bound to the Shoulder. The progressing Essentia would keep me from spending a lot of feats on gaining Essentia, feats which I don't have room for. But yeah I can see the d4 Hit Die not helping with the build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could use the trick of keeping Share Pain on your Psicrystal so you take half damage, its hardness 8 is applied to every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain. You can also use Vigor and share it with the psicrystal for a significant buffer. You could use Schism to buff yourself while full attacking. Then there's the Control Body on yourself + Solicit Psicrystal trick so your psicrystal's actions are used to make you full attack while your actions are spent manifesting powers, but that uses your casting stat for your attacks instead of Str.

[ChaosStar]

You could use the trick of keeping Share Pain on your Psicrystal so you take half damage, its hardness 8 is applied to every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain. You can also use Vigor and share it with the psicrystal for a significant buffer. You could use Schism to buff yourself while full attacking. Then there's the Control Body on yourself + Solicit Psicrystal trick so your psicrystal's actions are used to make you full attack while your actions are spent manifesting powers, but that uses your casting stat for your attacks instead of Str.
None of that matters to me, cause I don't have a Psicrystal. I'd have to spend a feat on it and I have better things to spend feats on. Also as to you previous post I was already going to go into Warshaper.

Edit: Doing an edit to avoid Double Posting. Alright my build before wanting to include Meldshaping was City Brawler Barb 1/Animal RHD 3/Psy War 11/Warshaper 4. This was because I couldn't buy off the last point of LA pre-Epic. Adjusting to add 2 levels of Totemist makes the build City Brawler Barb 1/Animal RHD 3/Psy War 9/Totemist 2/Warshaper 4. Adding in Soul Manifester while not losing Warshaper Levels would make me drop Barbarian for Totemist leading to Totemist 2/Animal RHD 3/Psy War 4/Soul Manifester 6/Warshaper 4. Dropping Warshaper Levels leads to Totemist 2/Animal RHD 3/Psy War 4/Soul Manifester 8/Warshaper 2.

Build 1 has me at 1d12+18d8+114 HP, 14 BAB, and Manifest as an 11th level Psy War with 75 PP. Build 2 has me at 1d12+18d8+114 HP, 13 BAB, Manifest as a 9th Level Psy War with 63 PP, and Meldshape as a 2nd Level Totemist with 7 points of Essentia. Build 3 has me at 13d8+6d4+114 HP, 12 BAB, Manifest as a 10th Level Psy War with 67 PP, and Meldshape as a 8th Level Totemist with 8 points of Essentia. Build 4 has me at 11d8+8d4+114 HP, 11 BAB, Manifest as a 12 Level Psy War with 83 PP, and Meldshape as a 10th Level Totemist with 10 Essentia.

[Psyren]

You could use the trick of keeping Share Pain on your Psicrystal so you take half damage, its hardness 8 is applied to every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain. You can also use Vigor and share it with the psicrystal for a significant buffer. You could use Schism to buff yourself while full attacking. Then there's the Control Body on yourself + Solicit Psicrystal trick so your psicrystal's actions are used to make you full attack while your actions are spent manifesting powers, but that uses your casting stat for your attacks instead of Str.

Vitality Belt will also help with hit points

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's not even about the hp, really.
The entire point of the King of Smack build is to take advantage of the scaling on Claws of the Beast along with Claws of the Vampire. Everything else it does is simply an extension of that.
Your psywar manifesting is the core of the build that the entire concept is built from. It should be obvious that delaying it is a terrible idea.

I can see what you're trying to do here but frankly you'd be better off focusing on doing one thing well, not mixing a bunch of things with little synergy and being terrible at all of them.
If you want to play a King of Smack focus on what makes that build good. If you want to have tons of natural weapons focus on that.

But what you're currently building is going to have a bunch of natural weapons it's not going to do much damage with,
some psionic manifesting that's too weak to contribute in level-appropriate fights and a bunch of soulmelds you can only use a bare fraction of because you're missing both the essentia and chakra binds to take full advantage of it and it partially overlaps with the natural weapons you already have.
And that's before you take into account being delayed even further by being a lycanthrope.

Edit: In short your build lacks focus. You're trying to cram too many things that don't support each other (and sometimes even work add odds, see Claws of the Beast vs Totemist vs being a Lycanthrope) into one build.
From what it looks like to me you're trying to play an unerrataed Weretouched Master, not a King of Smack or a Totemist.

[ChaosStar]

It's not even about the hp, really.
The entire point of the King of Smack build is to take advantage of the scaling on Claws of the Beast along with Claws of the Vampire. Everything else it does is simply an extension of that.
Your psywar manifesting is the core of the build that the entire concept is built from. It should be obvious that delaying it is a terrible idea.

I can see what you're trying to do here but frankly you'd be better off focusing on doing one thing well, not mixing a bunch of things with little synergy and being terrible at all of them.
If you want to play a King of Smack focus on what makes that build good. If you want to have tons of natural weapons focus on that.

But what you're currently building is going to have a bunch of natural weapons it's not going to do much damage with,
some psionic manifesting that's too weak to contribute in level-appropriate fights and a bunch of soulmelds you can only use a bare fraction of because you're missing both the essentia and chakra binds to take full advantage of it and it partially overlaps with the natural weapons you already have.
And that's before you take into account being delayed even further by being a lycanthrope.

Edit: In short your build lacks focus. You're trying to cram too many things that don't support each other (and sometimes even work add odds, see Claws of the Beast vs Totemist vs being a Lycanthrope) into one build.
From what it looks like to me you're trying to play an unerrataed Weretouched Master, not a King of Smack or a Totemist.
You don't need the Claw powers to do King of Smack if you are a Lycanthrope, cause you already have the Natural Weapons. King of Smack is about buffing Natural weapons and doing tons of attacks with them doing massive damage. This means Expansion to buff your size catagory, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Girallion Arms, and more.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You don't need the Claw powers to do King of Smack if you are a Lycanthrope, cause you already have the Natural Weapons. King of Smack is about buffing Natural weapons and doing tons of attacks with them doing massive damage. This means Expansion to buff your size catagory, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Girallion Arms, and more.Thing is, with claws of the beast you can do many many times more base damage with the claws than you can with a lycanthrope's d8 or so. 6d6 at level 19 (or earlier, if you boost your ML) is way better than d8, and that's at Large size. The size boosts from expansion and other boosters multiply this a few times over, and the larger your starting damage the higher the boost. It's basically a geometric progression, where the higher the starting point the faster the increase. Even if you have six or eight 1d8 attacks, the 6d6 will win every time, especially since both can be equally boosted with Improved Natural Attack and size modifiers. Furthermore, wasting all your levels on RHD and LA will put you further behind on feats and class features, so that wrecks your damage output and healing even more.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You don't need the Claw powers to do King of Smack if you are a Lycanthrope, cause you already have the Natural Weapons. King of Smack is about buffing Natural weapons and doing tons of attacks with them doing massive damage. This means Expansion to buff your size catagory, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Girallion Arms, and more.

The reason for the King of Smack being what it is is that Claws of the Beast gives you natural weapons with a huge base damage.
The fact that you start at up to 5d6 before size increases is key to the build.
Since the CotB damage scales mainly with augmentation it naturally follows that ML is vitally important.

And CotB replaces natural claws instead of improving them, so it's directly clashing with being a lycanthrope.

As for Totemist already having claws + bite means what you get from binding soulmelds to your totem chakra is severely limited, so you want to unlock the other chakra binds asap.
That obviously runs counter to the first imperative of "not losing ML", so you're trying to compensate by going for Soul Manifester to progress both.

The problem with Soul Manifester is that it's already an iffy tradeoff all by itself and very much not designed to be a melee class, which is what you actually want to do.
Pushing it on top of being a lycanthrope and further multiclassing simply means none of your abilities will progress at a pace that keeps up with your character level.

[ChaosStar]

I am not an optimizer. I don't care about losing Manifester Levels. I just want to play a Natural Weapon using Wereleopard with Psionic abilities. I was just asking if the Totemist stuff would fit in to the build. I don't care about claws of the beast cause my GM would probably ban it, or nerf it to hell like he's doing to everything. The whole idea for the character was about being like Brittany from Gold Digger or Kevin from Trials of Mana, except Psionic.

[JNAProductions]

I am not an optimizer. I don't care about losing Manifester Levels. I just want to play a Natural Weapon using Wereleopard with Psionic abilities. I was just asking if the Totemist stuff would fit in to the build. I don't care about claws of the beast cause my GM would probably ban it, or nerf it to hell like he's doing to everything. The whole idea for the character was about being like Brittany from Gold Digger or Kevin from Trials of Mana, except Psionic.

So, if you don't care about making a competent character, what's your question?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I am not an optimizer. I don't care about losing Manifester Levels. I just want to play a Natural Weapon using Wereleopard with Psionic abilities. I was just asking if the Totemist stuff would fit in to the build. I don't care about claws of the beast cause my GM would probably ban it, or nerf it to hell like he's doing to everything. The whole idea for the character was about being like Brittany from Gold Digger or Kevin from Trials of Mana, except Psionic.

My point is that you're probably going to be disappointed. You don't need to be an optimizer to not want to suck.
It's no fun to have a vision of your character in your head that your build can't match up to, or at least it isn't for me.

If you don't care about optimization i'd suggest just going straight Psychic Warrior. It's not the best build, but it's very solid for most tables.
Also less likely to trigger your GM than a bunch of multiclassing. :smalltongue: