limited wish, costly material components, supernatural spell.

[newguydude1]

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.


The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell.

so if a supernatural limited wish replicates extract gift which costs 16,000gp and 640xp, you can ignore it all right?
supernatural spell does not differentiate between components in the component entry, or components in the spell description. all components are ignored.

[newguydude1]

from the raw thread

When casting limited wish, V, S, XP components are normally required. The XP cost is expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components). Decisions about the spell, on the other hand, are made when the spell comes into effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime). In the case that the casting fails, e.g. if you're interrupted and fail a Concentration check or if you fail an ASF roll, any material components or XP costs of the spell are expended but you never even get to the point of making decisions about the spell effect.

Supernatural Spell makes those components not required. (You can, presumably, still provide them if you want. Unlike SLAs, nothing says that Su abilities can't have components. This can be useful if you get additional effects from optional components, such as by a few Frostburn feats or certain spells like forbiddance (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm).)

When you make decisions about the spell, if you choose for limited wish to duplicate a spell that has a material component costing more than 1000 gp, the requirement that you provide the component is the effect of limited wish. It is not a component of limited wish; it is not expended during the casting process; if the casting fails, you do not expend it. You just can't choose to duplicate the spell without providing the material component, any more than you can choose to use a passwall effect on a metal wall or use call lightning's effect underwater. The reason you can't do it is because the spell says you can't.

Likewise, if you don't pay at least 300 XP, you cannot use limited wish to duplicate a spell with an XP cost. This is only tangentially related to the component, which Supernatural Spell lets you not provide; the spell effect just doesn't let you choose to duplicate a spell with an XP cost unless you pay.

Supernatural Spell eliminates components, not logical requirements stated by spell effects.

This got a bit long, so it'd probably be a good idea to take any further discussion to a new thread.

this is the counter but all i see is someone trying to create a new term called "logical requirements" which doesnt exist in the glossary or d&d, and then trying to classify something directly said to be a component into this category so you can say its "technically not a component" and then say dweomerkeepers supernatural spell only works on "components" in the "components" entry even though nowhere does it say supernatural spell only applies to "components" in the "components" entry. it says you dont need any components.

[sreservoir]

I think you're misunderstanding the argument: limited wish does not require you to provide any material components. You just have to provide them to get certain effects out of it.

Supernatural Spell lets you ignore the component; it's no longer required.

Supernatural Spell does not otherwise change the text of the spell or other effects. If it demands that you do something to get a particular effect, then you have to do the thing to get the effect, even if you are not, in general, required to do the thing.

In the case of limited wish, you're not required to provide components. But some effects that limited wish can duplicate are only available if you did provide them.

[newguydude1]

I think you're misunderstanding the argument: limited wish does not require you to provide any material components. You just have to provide them to get certain effects out of it.

Supernatural Spell lets you ignore the component; it's no longer required.

Supernatural Spell does not otherwise change the text of the spell or other effects. If it demands that you do something to get a particular effect, then you have to do the thing to get the effect, even if you are not, in general, required to do the thing.

In the case of limited wish, you're not required to provide components. But some effects that limited wish can duplicate are only available if you did provide them.

why are you saying if a spelled-out-in-raw effect of limited wish requires components to use dweomerkeeper needs to provide the component when she doesnt need any components. period. no other restrictions or qualifiers.

[gogogome]

I think you're misunderstanding the argument: limited wish does not require you to provide any material components. You just have to provide them to get certain effects out of it.

Supernatural Spell lets you ignore the component; it's no longer required.

Supernatural Spell does not otherwise change the text of the spell or other effects. If it demands that you do something to get a particular effect, then you have to do the thing to get the effect, even if you are not, in general, required to do the thing.

In the case of limited wish, you're not required to provide components. But some effects that limited wish can duplicate are only available if you did provide them.

Your making a few assumptions here. Mainly you consume the material component after casting which is not true. Permanency for example, you choose the effect and then provide the xp cost during casting. And in the case of a scroll of Permanency, the scroll could have 3,000xp but you can choose to use 1,000xp. Likewise you choose the effect of limited wish and then provide the xp and material components, and a scroll of limited wish could have the material components of Force Cage in it and the user can opt to not use it and create a different effect.

[sreservoir]

Your making a few assumptions here. Mainly you consume the material component after casting which is not true.

Normally, material components are consumed "in the casting process". Limited wish doesn't actually have a material component, though. It has choices of effect for which you must provide the matching material component. Providing the material component is done as part of the effect of the spell.


Permanency for example, you choose the effect and then provide the xp cost during casting. And in the case of a scroll of Permanency, the scroll could have 3,000xp but you can choose to use 1,000xp.

Your example is correct, but as it implies, the ordering cannot be the way you've written it. You do not choose the effect during casting. Rather, you first expend the XP cost during casting (probably with the required XP for a particular effect in mind); then, when the spell comes into effect, you make the decision of which spell to make permanent.

You could, for example, start casting permanency expending 1500 xp intending to make a stinking cloud permanent, but then at the time it comes into effect change your mind and make a gust of wind effect permanent instead. But you couldn't choose to make a solid fog permanent instead, because you didn't cast permanency with enough XP for that.

Normally this doesn't matter since you're not going to change your mind between starting and finishing casting. But as your example shows, it does matter for scrolls: that 3000 xp scroll couldn't be used to make a prismatic sphere permanent, because that requires 4500 xp and the scroll can't provide that much.


Likewise you choose the effect of limited wish and then provide the xp and material components, and a scroll of limited wish could have the material components of Force Cage in it and the user can opt to not use it and create a different effect.

As above, this backward: You provide the xp component, then, when limited wish comes into effect, you choose the effect. Normally you'll have some idea of what effect you want in advance, and pay the appropriate amount of xp and have the material component for that effect available, but just as with the scroll you can change your mind at the point where the spell comes into effect.

When you use Supernatural Spell to ignore the XP component, this is analogous to if you'd cast a hypothetical scroll of limited wish with 0 xp. You can use the effects that don't require you to pay an xp cost, but you can't use effects that the spell says you have to pay xp—you didn't make enough xp available during the casting of the spell for those effects.


I greatly disagree with that assessment, since the quoted text about requiring to provide components above a certain value is under the components section of the spell.

This is not actually true for limited wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm). The only component section is for the XP cost. You may be thinking of wish, which is certainly more arguable.

I'd still say, though, that Supernatural Spell only removes required components, but leaves you the option of providing any components you want to. There are a few spells, like cloud of knives (PH2 107) that have additional effects when optional material components are provided, where the additional effect is spelled out only under the component headings.

[gogogome]

As above, this backward: You provide the xp component, then, when limited wish comes into effect, you choose the effect. Normally you'll have some idea of what effect you want in advance, and pay the appropriate amount of xp and have the material component for that effect available, but just as with the scroll you can change your mind at the point where the spell comes into effect.

When you use Supernatural Spell to ignore the XP component, this is analogous to if you'd cast a hypothetical scroll of limited wish with 0 xp. You can use the effects that don't require you to pay an xp cost, but you can't use effects that the spell says you have to pay xp—you didn't make enough xp available during the casting of the spell for those effects.

A material component is still a material component. You follow all the rules for it. As in you annihilate it at the beginning of casting. Just because the text is not written under "material component" doesn't mean its not a material component. Otherwise you could say Limited Wish doesn't annihilate material components because you just "provide" it and it can be reused again and again. If your using even one sentence of the material components rule, such as it being annihlated by the spell energies, then you need to use the rest of the rules which is annihilation during casting.

The increased XP cost of limited wish is not under "XP Cost" section of the spell description. Its on the same paragraph as the material component. So either the increased cost is not a "component" or, more sensibly, its a component.

Your going to have to prove that
1. additional material components are annihilated after casting, not before.
2. if 1. is true then you need to show that material components are in fact annihilated instead of just being "provided".

[Gruftzwerg]

so if a supernatural limited wish replicates extract gift which costs 16,000gp and 640xp, you can ignore it all right?
supernatural spell does not differentiate between components in the component entry, or components in the spell description. all components are ignored.

if you want to ignore the extra gold and xp costs for spells, Craftlock is the way to go.

Warlock 12 gives Imbue Item, which lets you fake any spell with UMD for the purpose of crafting. Since the spell is faked, any costly material component and/or XP costs of that spell (!not of the crafted item!) is also faked.
This lets you craft/scribe e.g. scrolls of Extract Gift for only the cost of a regular 5th lvl spell scroll (562,5 G & 45xp).
Or craft Wish scrolls for regular cost of a 9th lvl spell (without the extra gold and extra xp costs of the Wish spell). You can scribe a Wish scroll for 1.912,5 G and 153xp

While the costs aren't reduced to zero, it is still one of the best ways to get rid of expensive material components and extra xp costs.

Craftlocks work best with 2 lvls of Chameleon for the floating feat. While the build kicks in late at lvl 14, you can craft anything and don't need to care for the "extra" costs that the required spell might involve.


edit: btw, as said the build kicks in late at 12~14, but if you boost your UMD enough, you can easily start to craft 9th lvl spells by now.