Would you allow Bestow curse to mimic another spell?

[GalvanicFour64]

To all the DMs out there:
Specifically I mean to ask if it would be a stretch to ask for the bestow curse spell to mimic the contagion spell when cast at 5th level or higher, even more specifically the vulnerability diseases, flesh rot?

Given that bestow curse and contagion are both cleric spells too, would it be too much for a wizard to cast bestow curse at 5th level to mimic any of the diseases in contagion? (Saving throws and all, not just an instant disease).

Also by this logic would you allow bestow curse to mimic other debuff type spells provided its cast at their required level, essentially turning into a debuff poor man’s wish spell?

EDIT: sorry about the multiposting, I wasn’t aware of the limit lock as pointed out by PhoenixPhyre

Also thank you all for the input, appreciated :)

[Mastikator]

Contagion? No. Remember: "At the DM’s option, you may choose an alternative curse effect, but it should be no more powerful than those described above (the standard effects that is). The DM has final say on such a curse’s effect."

Reason: You shouldn't get to cast a 5th level spell on a 3rd level spell slot.

MAYBE if you use a 5th level spell slot to cast Bestow Curse. However even then I'd rule that it lasts 8 hours as per the Bestow Curse rules (while casting on 5th level spell slot) and NOT the 7 days contagion duration.

[GalvanicFour64]

Contagion? No. Remember: "At the DM’s option, you may choose an alternative curse effect, but it should be no more powerful than those described above (the standard effects that is). The DM has final say on such a curse’s effect."

Reason: You shouldn't get to cast a 5th level spell on a 3rd level spell slot.

MAYBE if you use a 5th level spell slot to cast Bestow Curse. However even then I'd rule that it lasts 8 hours as per the Bestow Curse rules (while casting on 5th level spell slot) and NOT the 7 days contagion duration.

So you’re saying if I were to ask you if I could cast contagion using bestow curse as a fifth level spell slot for just under a day there’s a good chance you’d say yes? (Again more specifically the flesh rot disease causing vulnerability to all damage, say i polymorphed the boss into a frog then cast “contagion” with the intent of getting double damage on my next attack on it after (say for example the disintegrate spell so like 150 damage average almost guaranteed))

[Fynzmirs]

I still don't get how is it possible that the only spell that specifically makes something cursed isn't even permanent until like 17th level. Seeing that it can be broken by a 3rd level spell why isn't it permanent from the start? What happened to village witches slinging curses left and right to make commoners suffer from rhotacism till the end of their lifes (or until some decently comptetent priest decides it's enough)?

[rlc]

MAYBE if you use a 5th level spell slot to cast Bestow Curse. However even then I'd rule that it lasts 8 hours as per the Bestow Curse rules (while casting on 5th level spell slot) and NOT the 7 days contagion duration.
That’s what op asked.

[Composer99]

Personally, I wouldn't allow that. Vulnerability to all damage is stronger than any of the curse options presented in the spell description.

[GalvanicFour64]

Personally, I wouldn't allow that. Vulnerability to all damage is stronger than any of the curse options presented in the spell description.

Even if I cast it at the same spell slot as the spell itself (cos it’s already a 5th level spell right) and included it’s saving throws? Effectively casting contagion by casting a 5th level bestow curse.

[Composer99]

Even if I cast it at the same spell slot as the spell itself (cos it’s already a 5th level spell right) and included it’s saving throws? Effectively casting contagion by casting a 5th level bestow curse.

Even then. If you want the effect of contagion, cast contagion. Or wish, I suppose.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Even then. If you want the effect of contagion, cast contagion. Or wish, I suppose.

Right. If there's a spell that already does it, no getting that for free with a different one (except wish).

Spells known/prepared are a major opportunity cost. The versatility of being a spellcaster comes from having lots of specialized tools; the downside is not having the right one prepared. "Pick off a menu of effects" spells need to be kept to a minimum and strongly constrained, otherwise that downside goes away. Cf. shadow conjuration in 3e (ie one spell that does anything, and if you specialize, it can do anything better than the original spell because it's more than 100% real. All for the cost of one spell!).

[Keltest]

Right. If there's a spell that already does it, no getting that for free with a different one (except wish).

Spells known/prepared are a major opportunity cost. The versatility of being a spellcaster comes from having lots of specialized tools; the downside is not having the right one prepared. "Pick off a menu of effects" spells need to be kept to a minimum and strongly constrained, otherwise that downside goes away. Cf. shadow conjuration in 3e (ie one spell that does anything, and if you specialize, it can do anything better than the original spell because it's more than 100% real. All for the cost of one spell!).

Agreed. I might let you get it away with an 8th or 9th level slot because at that point youre adding a lot of inefficiency to get the effect. Maybe. If you were the one who bought pizza out of pocket every week.

[Gtdead]

I wouldn't allow it because this makes Bestow Curse better than Contagion. An upcasted lower level spell should not be better than a higher level spell.

But then again, I'd change contagion to apply the disease from the first turn. If the target saves, he doesn't suffer the effects for that turn. Poisoned condition is meh as a lvl 5 spell and that's all you are going to get by casting it. If someone claims that he has actually used this spell to great effect RAW after the erratum, I will call bull**** (no offense).

[JNAProductions]

I wouldn't allow it because this makes Bestow Curse better than Contagion. An upcasted lower level spell should not be better than a higher level spell.

But then again, I'd change contagion to apply the disease from the first turn. If the target saves, he doesn't suffer the effects for that turn. Poisoned condition is meh as a lvl 5 spell and that's all you are going to get by casting it. If someone claims that he has actually used this spell to great effect RAW after the erratum, I will call bull**** (no offense).

So, disadvantage on every single d20 roll made, except saves, for three turns is bad?

Whereas with your ruling, using Slimy Doom means that a single failed save is likely to lead to more failed saves (as they now have disadvantage) and they get stunned every time they take damage.

The only downside to Contagion is that too much is immune to Poisoned to make it worthwhile-if you're in a humanoid heavy campaign, where Poisoned is not immune to by everything, it's a great spell.

[Anymage]

Remember: Contagion doesn't give vulnerability right off the bat. I wouldn't horribly mind letting Bestow Curse upcast to fifth mimic Contagion (complete with ramp up time, but still costing concentration and not getting the duration bump), but that's an awful lot of inefficiency there. More generally there might be interesting space to compare upcast for effect vs. upcast for duration (say, if you wanted to give vulnerability to a specific damage type or even vulnerability across the board), but I'd want to put a good amount of thought into that before freely opening it up at my table.


I still don't get how is it possible that the only spell that specifically makes something cursed isn't even permanent until like 17th level. Seeing that it can be broken by a 3rd level spell why isn't it permanent from the start? What happened to village witches slinging curses left and right to make commoners suffer from rhotacism till the end of their lifes (or until some decently comptetent priest decides it's enough)?

Having your character debilitated until you can get back to town sucks. Debilitating the enemy based off of just one dice roll and with no long term cost to the caster beyond the spell slot leads to action economy issues. There's a reason that concentration and repeating saves to shake off an effect are things in this edition.

If you want to have more narrative curses ("you shall suffer bad luck until you overcome your greed") or trivial ones (cursing someone with bad breath) you can explore that space, but D&D is more about combat/adventure than background fluff.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Personally, I'd argue that casting bestow curse at a 5th level slot is intended to allow you to cause the effect of a 3rd-level spell, but for an extended duration. The effect of a 5th-level spell is by definition stronger than the effect of a 3rd-level spell, so no, I wouldn't grant that effect even with a 5th level slot.

That said, I would think vulnerability to one type of weapon damage would probably be a decently balanced alternative effect, at first glance. You could also do some research to create a lesser contagion spell, perhaps granting the full effect of one of the diseases for a limited duration (Concentration, up to 10 minutes?), as a 3rd or 4th level spell. Bestow curse allows multiple effects, lesser contagion, by focusing on just contagion's effects, could conceivably have a stronger single effect.

[Gtdead]

So, disadvantage on every single d20 roll made, except saves, for three turns is bad?

Whereas with your ruling, using Slimy Doom means that a single failed save is likely to lead to more failed saves (as they now have disadvantage) and they get stunned every time they take damage.

The only downside to Contagion is that too much is immune to Poisoned to make it worthwhile-if you're in a humanoid heavy campaign, where Poisoned is not immune to by everything, it's a great spell.

Do you expect that the target who merits a cast of contagion, won't have ways to bypass the disadvantage on rolls? Can contagion do something against a dragon's breath or a spell caster?

Is contagion a surefire way to impose disadvantage? It requires the caster in melee range (you can lose a turn by doing this) and making an attack.

And is contagion better than just casting SG and using the dodge action on subsequent turns as a Cleric if you are in a position to lose a turn due to limited movement?

With my ruling, it can at least force legendary resistance uses because if it fails even once the effect is very strong, either slimy doom or flesh rot. With the poisoned condition it doesn't have to resist anything. It can just take normal rolls. Combat will be over in 4-5 rounds unless it's a flying/kiting monster that you will be hard pressed to get into melee range anyway.

Clarification: "losing a turn" means that since it's a control spell, it should be applied as early as possible. If you have to chase something around to cast it then you are losing both time and efficiency when you could use the spellslot for something immediate and get more mileage out of it.

[JackPhoenix]

I'd allow Bestow Curse to mimic the effect of lower level spell.


I still don't get how is it possible that the only spell that specifically makes something cursed isn't even permanent until like 17th level. Seeing that it can be broken by a 3rd level spell why isn't it permanent from the start? What happened to village witches slinging curses left and right to make commoners suffer from rhotacism till the end of their lifes (or until some decently comptetent priest decides it's enough)?

They've stopped using spells to do their cursing and just use NPC abilities or GM fiat to do it.

[MaxWilson]

Do you expect that the target who merits a cast of contagion, won't have ways to bypass the disadvantage on rolls? Can contagion do something against a dragon's breath or a spell caster?

Why would you cast Contagion on a spellcaster?

[JNAProductions]

Why would you cast Contagion on a spellcaster?

Under the houserule where it applies the effect immediately? To permanently stun them.

Under the errata? I guess if they're making a lot of ability checks, but generally you wouldn't.

[Gtdead]

Why would you cast Contagion on a spellcaster?

You probably misunderstood me or I didn't convey the message well. I wouldn't cast it on a spellcaster.

I would want to cast it on a BBEG because it sticks without a saving throw (no matter what happens next). The problem is that by erratum, the poisoned condition wouldn't be a blanket debuff to all of his abilities if they are a dragon, a spellcaster or something that has deadly abilities which don't require an attack roll. Basically common high level Boss stuff.

If it worked like I suggested earlier, it would be useful against everything. Even if the enemy saved against the effect, there is a good chance he would have to use legendary resistance to do so.

[GalvanicFour64]

Right. If there's a spell that already does it, no getting that for free with a different one (except wish).

Spells known/prepared are a major opportunity cost. The versatility of being a spellcaster comes from having lots of specialized tools; the downside is not having the right one prepared. "Pick off a menu of effects" spells need to be kept to a minimum and strongly constrained, otherwise that downside goes away. Cf. shadow conjuration in 3e (ie one spell that does anything, and if you specialize, it can do anything better than the original spell because it's more than 100% real. All for the cost of one spell!).

That’s fair that makes sense

That being said, if I were to cast it at 7th level, would you say asking for vulnerability to one damage type would be asking too much?

[GalvanicFour64]

Agreed. I might let you get it away with an 8th or 9th level slot because at that point youre adding a lot of inefficiency to get the effect. Maybe. If you were the one who bought pizza out of pocket every week.

Oh I have to be on THAT level?....I see.... *slides money back into pocket*

[GalvanicFour64]

Remember: Contagion doesn't give vulnerability right off the bat. I wouldn't horribly mind letting Bestow Curse upcast to fifth mimic Contagion (complete with ramp up time, but still costing concentration and not getting the duration bump), but that's an awful lot of inefficiency there. More generally there might be interesting space to compare upcast for effect vs. upcast for duration (say, if you wanted to give vulnerability to a specific damage type or even vulnerability across the board), but I'd want to put a good amount of thought into that before freely opening it up at my table.



Having your character debilitated until you can get back to town sucks. Debilitating the enemy based off of just one dice roll and with no long term cost to the caster beyond the spell slot leads to action economy issues. There's a reason that concentration and repeating saves to shake off an effect are things in this edition.

If you want to have more narrative curses ("you shall suffer bad luck until you overcome your greed") or trivial ones (cursing someone with bad breath) you can explore that space, but D&D is more about combat/adventure than background fluff.

Is it really that inefficient tho? Possible vulnerability to all damage or getting stunned whenever it takes damage?

[PhoenixPhyre]

That’s fair that makes sense

That being said, if I were to cast it at 7th level, would you say asking for vulnerability to one damage type would be asking too much?

The At higher levels section of the spell mentions nothing about upgrading the effect, merely the duration. So no. Spells do what they say, nothing more, nothing less.

I take a pretty hard line on that, much more than I do with abilities other than spells. Because spells are already so numerous, and even the poor sorcerer gets way more spells known than a non-caster gets abilities. Plus getting abilities. So each spell is a discrete chunk of effects and can't go beyond that.

Basically, there's a tradeoff in my mind between power, versatility, reliability. Spells are already ridiculously reliable most of the time. And often quite powerful. So individual spells can't be versatile. And ones that are, can't be both powerful and reliable. Most martial abilities and ability checks generally are either weak or unreliable, so they can be quite versatile.

Edit: and FYI, this forum has a culture that strongly frowns on multi-posting. Better to edit in those into one comment rather than triple posting. IIRC, it has something to do with trying to preserve space, as the threads get locked at 50 pages. Or maybe not, I've never quite been sure of the reasoning.

[sithlordnergal]

So, disadvantage on every single d20 roll made, except saves, for three turns is bad?

Whereas with your ruling, using Slimy Doom means that a single failed save is likely to lead to more failed saves (as they now have disadvantage) and they get stunned every time they take damage.

The only downside to Contagion is that too much is immune to Poisoned to make it worthwhile-if you're in a humanoid heavy campaign, where Poisoned is not immune to by everything, it's a great spell.

I'd say yes, for a 5th level spell it is pretty bad. The target gets to make 3 Con saving throws before the more useful effects start happening, its poison which is something everyone and their mother is immune to, and you need to make a melee spell attack just to get it off to boot. Compare that to almost any other 5th level spell and you'll find that Contagion is just...not good. At all. The only real use is disadvantage on attack rolls which is not worth a 5th level spell.