Spitting Polymorphed Wizards?

[SangoProduction]

So, Polymorph effects often allow you to copy abilities from your target type of polymorph.

Several Oozes can Split (often by taking slashing damage).


Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a verdurous ooze. Instead, if the verdurous ooze would have taken 10 or more points of damage from a single slashing or piercing attack, it splits into two identical oozes, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). Slashing or piercing attacks that deal less than 10 points of damage do not cause a verdurous ooze to split. Damage from multiple slashing or piercing attacks is not cumulative. A verdurous ooze with 15 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

So, you have your barbarian turn you into sashimi, and now there are 16 of you, that are identical to you, except that they each have a portion of your hit points.

Do they keep your list of spells? What happens when you the polymorph ends?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph gives you (Ex) special attacks, not (Ex) special qualities, which split is.

Shapechange, however...

[SangoProduction]

Polymorph effects, not the polymorph spell in particular.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph effects, not the polymorph spell in particular.Far as I know, shapechange is the only spell that allows for that. Other shapeshifting effects (ie, alternate form effects, not polymorph effects) might, and there are classes that alter polymorph in ways that would allow for it, but vanilla polymorph, and most things based on it, would not.

[SangoProduction]

Again, not the point. You really like arguing semantics, but it's not the point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Again, not the point. You really like arguing semantics, but it's not the point.I just pointed out that what you suggested isn't a thing that can happen normally, shapechange aside.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Doesn't this work in nethack exactly this way?

[Segev]

Given their usual social lives, this may be how wizards most commonly reproduce. :smallcool:

[sleepyphoenixx]

By RAW you get a bunch of absolutely identical clones of yourself. Same spells, same build, same memories.
They'd be permanent, because they're not a spell effect any more than a shapeshifted forms poison would be.

The only subschool that has rules against effects lasting longer than the spell that caused them is Summoning.


I just pointed out that what you suggested isn't a thing that can happen normally, shapechange aside.

Either Master of Many Forms 7 or Master Transmogrifist 8 works too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Either Master of Many Forms 7 or Master Transmogrifist 8 works too.Which I did mention, albeit a mite obliquely.


Far as I know, shapechange is the only spell that allows for that. Other shapeshifting effects (ie, alternate form effects, not polymorph effects) might, and there are classes that alter polymorph in ways that would allow for it, but vanilla polymorph, and most things based on it, would not.

[Venger]

The sample master transmogrifist, in fact, has an ochre jelly as one of his favored forms, presumably for this exact reason.

[SimonMoon6]

The "each have a portion of your hit points" is why, even if someone can do this, they probably shouldn't.

Yeah, your barbarian with 128 hit points might now be 128 barbarians with 1 hp. The "128 barbarians" part sounds cool and overpowered. But the entire army of barbarians can be defeated by one Burning Hands spell.

Okay, maybe you stop at only having 8 barbarians with 16 hit points? The army can be defeated by one fireball or possibly a single fighter with Great Cleave. When a super-impressive-sounding tactic can be defeated by a fighter feat, you know it's not a good tactic.

[Venger]

Split only checks your current hp. You'd get enough temp hp for it to not matter first and only split then. Since your buds last indefinitely and growth is exponential, it's not like there's much of a hurry.

[Jack_Simth]

The sample master transmogrifist, in fact, has an ochre jelly as one of his favored forms, presumably for this exact reason.
Potentially, it's also an "interesting" way to mass-manufacture items (magical or not).

Wizard casts Shapechange.
Wizard dons various things to be duplicated (they can be in a mundane backpack, that'll still merge and be eligible for Split).
Wizard changes shape into a suitable ooze with split (an Ochre Jelly, perhaps).
Familiar (Shared the Shapechange) hits the Wizard with a dagger, triggering split.
The two oozes change shape back into two Wizards.
At this point, you have two Wizards, and two sets of items.
The two wizards stack their stuff onto one of the wizards. Who then Shapechanges back into a suitable Ooze.
Familiar hits the wizard with a dagger, triggering split.
The oozes turn back into wizards.
At this point, you have three wizards, and four sets of the original items.
The wizards pool their stuff onto one wizard, who then shapechanges back into a suitable Ooze.
Familiar hits the ooze with a dagger, triggering split.
The two oozes shapechange back into wizards.
At this point, you have four wizards, and eight sets of the original items. If you stop here, each copy has twice the wealth the original one started with, and there are four wizards. But there's little reason to stop there. Run the cycle twice more, and you have six wizards with 32 sets of the original items. Two more times, and you have eight wizards and 128 sets of the original items - distribute items equally, and each wizard is at sixteen times the starting stuff (in copies of items, but still).

And do note that Shapechanging heals you as though you rested for a night, and with a Wizard that can cast Shapechange, that'll usually be significantly more HP healing than is the minimum required for using Split.


The "each have a portion of your hit points" is why, even if someone can do this, they probably shouldn't.

Yeah, your barbarian with 128 hit points might now be 128 barbarians with 1 hp. The "128 barbarians" part sounds cool and overpowered. But the entire army of barbarians can be defeated by one Burning Hands spell.

Okay, maybe you stop at only having 8 barbarians with 16 hit points? The army can be defeated by one fireball or possibly a single fighter with Great Cleave. When a super-impressive-sounding tactic can be defeated by a fighter feat, you know it's not a good tactic.
It's current HP, not max HP, that's cut in half. They can be healed back up to 128 HP each just fine.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Potentially, it's also an "interesting" way to mass-manufacture items (magical or not).

That's assuming items are duplicated. Afaik RAW is silent on the issue. Probably because oozes don't wear items so they never considered it.

Unless there's some rule to the contrary i don't know about i don't really see why anyone would rule it that way. I certainly wouldn't expect it to do that.

[Segev]

That's assuming items are duplicated. Afaik RAW is silent on the issue. Probably because oozes don't wear items so they never considered it.

Unless there's some rule to the contrary i don't know about i don't really see why anyone would rule it that way. I certainly wouldn't expect it to do that.

The logic goes that the oozes are duplicates of each other, and the original ooze was just an ooze who happened to be a wizard with a bunch of items merged into him. The dual oozes are now exact copies of those oozes, so each ooze is a shapeshifted wizard with a bunch of items merged into it. When the spell ends, the ooze becomes the wizard with the items.

I want to say this should have some fiddly RAW reading that makes this not be the case, and I certainly wouldn't permit it as a DM even if I were permitting cloning yourself in this fashion, but I can't say that I see the RAW "no, this doesn't work" argument.

[unseenmage]

That's assuming items are duplicated. Afaik RAW is silent on the issue. Probably because oozes don't wear items so they never considered it.

Unless there's some rule to the contrary i don't know about i don't really see why anyone would rule it that way. I certainly wouldn't expect it to do that.

Alternatively, the wizard was a Construct and just used the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation with the Combining Magic Items rules and simply added magic item superpowers to themselves.

Or, march you Construct machines through the good ol' resetting magic trap of Shapechange -> ooze with split and replicate your Constructs that way. And since Intelligent Magic Items are Constructs OR Figurines of Wondrous Power transform into perfectly Shapechange able animals you can dup your treasury's worth of items that way.


Makes me wonder what happens to Shapechanged Simulacrums or Ice Assassins with split.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I want to say this should have some fiddly RAW reading that makes this not be the case, and I certainly wouldn't permit it as a DM even if I were permitting cloning yourself in this fashion, but I can't say that I see the RAW "no, this doesn't work" argument.
I don't think it needs to. "It doesn't say i can't" isn't a valid rules argument, so lacking any RAW clarification it's a DM decision.


Alternatively, the wizard was a Construct and just used the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation with the Combining Magic Items rules and simply added magic item superpowers to themselves.
That would work. Though i'd like to point out that custom magic items need DM approval anyway and you generally can't just decide which rules interpretation to use as a player.


Makes me wonder what happens to Shapechanged Simulacrums or Ice Assassins with split.
Free Simulacrum/Ice Assassin? They are supposed to be identical after all.

[False God]

Personally, I'd be inclined to say that these aren't actually clones. They're pieces of the original. When the spell wears off, the pieces magically goop back together, or their life energy is magically returned to the original. Especially since their HP is based off a fraction of the original. While an ooze they may have the same appearance as the original, the same special abilities, but that's only because they're oozes, which have no distinct appearance anyway.

[unseenmage]

Personally, I'd be inclined to say that these aren't actually clones. They're pieces of the original. When the spell wears off, the pieces magically goop back together, or their life energy is magically returned to the original. Especially since their HP is based off a fraction of the original. While an ooze they may have the same appearance as the original, the same special abilities, but that's only because they're oozes, which have no distinct appearance anyway.

That's fine. There's always the Protean Scourge monstrous humanoid ftom MM3 if oozes don't strike your fancy.

[SimonMoon6]

Personally, I'd be inclined to say that these aren't actually clones. They're pieces of the original. When the spell wears off, the pieces magically goop back together, or their life energy is magically returned to the original. Especially since their HP is based off a fraction of the original. While an ooze they may have the same appearance as the original, the same special abilities, but that's only because they're oozes, which have no distinct appearance anyway.

It is also possible that the splits only function as separate oozes thanks to the Split ability. If a wizard is cut in half while in ooze form and then becomes human again and loses the Split ability, perhaps he become a human wizard who was cut in half?

That's probably the interpretation I would go with.

That or the whole "Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form" rule would suggest that if you cut off half of a wizard who was in ooze shape, that half would return to normal (half of a wizard). And since you cut off both halves, sort of, you'd instantly get two halves of a wizard, who would then die.

[SimonMoon6]

It's current HP, not max HP, that's cut in half. They can be healed back up to 128 HP each just fine.

I agree with the first statement. I don't see any support for the second statement in the RAW.

I would assume that RAI is for the ooze splits to either have max hp equal to what they just got (half of the current hps of the original ooze) or to have max hp equal to half of the max hp of the original ooze. There is no RAW that I see suggesting what happens when you cast cure light wounds on a split ooze because... who would do that?

[Jack_Simth]

I agree with the first statement. I don't see any support for the second statement in the RAW.

I would assume that RAI is for the ooze splits to either have max hp equal to what they just got (half of the current hps of the original ooze) or to have max hp equal to half of the max hp of the original ooze.
I don't see any RAW support that the max HP of the ooze changes. Why would it? They're explicitly called out as identical. From the Ochre Jelly (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#ochreJelly):
Split (Ex)

Slashing and piercing weapons and electricity attacks deal no damage to an ochre jelly. Instead the creature splits into two identical jellies, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A jelly with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 it points.(Emphasis added)

"Intent" is an extremely subjective thing. A subjective thing is perfectly fine for a given table, don't get me wrong, but it won't generally get you very far with someone who doesn't see it the same way.

There is no RAW that I see suggesting what happens when you cast cure light wounds on a split ooze because... who would do that?
Anyone who wants to breed them quickly. If you have some method of control over them, or are simply effectively immune to them (perhaps you fly, perhaps you're resistant enough to their damage to soak a critical hit without issues, perhaps you have them herded around by minions who qualify as immune), then they are a useful and cheap hazard around your base to keep the riffraff out. Besides: Who hasn't loved the idea of dropping a nice Ooze at the bottom of a bit to increase the trap's hazard? Of course, that requires having enough oozes to apply to your pit traps. To do that, you'll need to breed them....


It is also possible that the splits only function as separate oozes thanks to the Split ability. If a wizard is cut in half while in ooze form and then becomes human again and loses the Split ability, perhaps he become a human wizard who was cut in half?

That's probably the interpretation I would go with.

That or the whole "Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form" rule would suggest that if you cut off half of a wizard who was in ooze shape, that half would return to normal (half of a wizard). And since you cut off both halves, sort of, you'd instantly get two halves of a wizard, who would then die.
Note that this clause explicitly does not apply with Shapechange (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm): "Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms. "


That's assuming items are duplicated. Afaik RAW is silent on the issue. Probably because oozes don't wear items so they never considered it.

Unless there's some rule to the contrary i don't know about i don't really see why anyone would rule it that way. I certainly wouldn't expect it to do that.
There's a reason I started it with "Potentially" for that line you quoted. The items merge with the caster and the "child" oozes are explicitly identical to the "parent" ooze other than the current HP bit. It's a stupid and counterintuitive loophole if it works (like a great many RAW things), but there it is.

Honestly, my actual ruling on the matter would be that the split portions don't resume their original forms. So when you hit the original Wizard with a dagger to trigger Split, you get one Shapechanged Wizard and one normal Ooze.

[Feldar]

Given their usual social lives, this may be how wizards most commonly reproduce. :smallcool:

You mean instead of using charm person?

[Feldar]

I wouldn't let this happen, even with shapechange. I would split everything, including prepared spells. You want that capacity back? You need to merge again.

If one of the oozes was somehow destroyed permanently, bye-bye spell capacity from the destroyed ooze. Would be a gold-plated son-of-a-horse to get back too.

[Darg]

I wouldn't let this happen, even with shapechange. I would split everything, including prepared spells. You want that capacity back? You need to merge again.

If one of the oozes was somehow destroyed permanently, bye-bye spell capacity from the destroyed ooze. Would be a gold-plated son-of-a-horse to get back too.

Instead of being really harsh, you could use a literal reading of the subschool rules. They wouldn't have their class features. Of course, a literal reading of Split(Ex) means that the original target for polymorph wouldn't exist and the wizard or creature would be stuck as an ooze permanently or immediately revert back into original form without a copy to be had.(Using the SRD definition)