Delden Roev
2020-11-07, 02:34 PM
As the title suggests, trying to figure out the appropriate way to combine the Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana with the Apprentice-Level rules from the 3.0 DMG to effectively create a "triple-gestalt" character, but only for a single level-dip. DM is allowing all official 3.0/3.5 material, as well as Dragon/Dungeon Magazine(s). In this specific case, I'm combining Targetteer-Fighter with Adenturer-Rogue (aka "Martial Rogue") via gestalt, and dipping Sniper-Scout via apprentice-level for a Human urban-based lightning-fast sneaky-stealthy dual-wielding crossbow-sniper thief type (nevermind the practicality, I know it's not optimal, but it's a fun concept). The effect I'm trying to achieve is beginning play as level-0 in three (3) classes, with all of the 0th-level benefits of a 0-0-0 Fighter-Rogue-Scout. DM is willing to allow it, and was quite amused by the concept, but we need some assistance/advice determining how to stitch the two rules sets together in a balanced way.
By RAW, the DM and I think the gestalt rules would function entirely separately from the apprentice-level rules and require the character to begin with 4 classes at level-0, progressing each to level-1 once the character gains 1,000XP. One combination of 2 classes would be used to determine starting (0th-level) HP, class-skills, and skill points (plus starting with +1 in good saves, +0 in bad for the first two combined classes); the other combination would be used to determine HP/class-skills/skill points at 1st-level (with all good saves progressing to +2, bad saves remaining at +0); and the character would receive 4x the normal skill point allotment at 0th-level. As we read the rules, good saves would actually stack between the two sets of gestalt combinations, so the character would begin play at level-0 with +1 FORT, +2 REFL, and +0 WILL... plus whatever good save(s) an arbitrary 4th class would add. DM has also ruled that the Class Defense Bonus rules from Table 4-1 on page-109/110 of Unearthed Arcana are in play, therefore the character would also receive a +6 AC bonus from Fighter/Targetteer class gestalted with Rogue/Adventurer class, and an additional +3 AC bonus from the Scout/Sniper class gestalted with whatever else (subject to being higher of course, depending on 4th class). But this is not actually what I want to achieve, so we're looking at making some house rules to bridge the gap between these two systems that were not designed to function together.
What we've arrived at (and are requesting comments/balancing on) is the following: Gestalt characters normally begin play as level 1-1 in two (2) separate classes, with the full 1st-level benefits of whichever class is superior in each category. Each time the character levels up, they place one (1) level in any two (2) classes of their choosing, and take the best benefits from each class. If a gestalt character wishes to extend their cross-training further to begin play with a 3rd base class, they may do so at the cost of beginning as 0th-level in all three (3) classes, and they gain the best of the 0th-level benefits for all three (3) classes in the same way that a normal gestalt character gains the best of the 1st-level benefits of two (2) classes. This benefit only applies at 0th-level and 1st-level; characters do not continue to progress as triple-gestalt beyond that, and must select only two (2) class levels per level-up for all subsequent levels gained. This variant rule allows characters to gain the best hit die, skill points, class-skills, saving throws, BAB, defense, and class features of three (3) classes at 0th-level and 1st-level, following the otherwise normal rules for gestalt characters. 0th-level characters use the rules and Table 2-22 from page-40/41 of the 3.0 edition Dungeon Master's Guide to determine 0th-level class benefits, with three (3) noted exceptions:
1) 0th-level classes have the same saving throws as their 1st-level counterparts. This preserves the normal pattern of saving throw progressions if back-calculated to include 0th-level (since gestalt rules now prevent redundant bonuses from stacking), prevents the 0th-level character from being significantly underpowered compared to their 1st-level counterparts, and offers no benefits beyond 1st-level in each class that would not otherwise be gained.
2) 0th-level characters begin play with 3x their normal number of skill points, instead of 4x. This is because the gestalt rules are used to override the apprentice-level rules, and keeps the triple-gestalt character's skill-point total at 1st-level (once they progress from 0th-level to 1st-level) equivalent to what it would be had they begun play at 1st-level under the normal gestalt rules, and offers no benefits beyond 1st-level that would not otherwise be gained.
3) Due to these variant rules only applying to gestalt characters, and due to the benefits of these rules only providing the long-term equivalent of gaining 1/2 of a gestalt level, treat the benefits of this variant rule as a voluntary +1 level-adjustment that any character can gain at character creation, if they so choose (even those who already possess level-adjustments from racial or template choices). This allows the character to "buy out" their level-adjustment at a higher level if they so choose, using the rules presented on page-18 of Unearthed Arcana. This is done to balance the "half-level" gained costing the character a full level of progression.
Therefore, we determine this particular character would gain the following class benefits as they progressed:
Level-1: Targetteer-0||Adventurer-0||Sniper-0, 0XP. +0 BAB, +6 AC, 10+CON HP, +2 FORT save, +2 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 3x(8+1+INT) skill-points, and may distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer, Adventurer, and Sniper class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum number of ranks in class-skills is three (3), and maximum rank in cross-class-skills is one and a half (1.5). Character receives the normal level-0 feat that all characters gain at character creation. Character receives one (1) bonus feat from the Targetteer-Fighter list, and one (1) bonus feat from the Adventurer-Rogue list (since these two feat lists are different, the number of bonus feats gained stack, even though they are gained at overlapping levels). The character selects traits, flaws, and additional bonus feats gained from flaw/race selection as normal for an otherwise level-1 character. Character must meet all prerequisites for feats selected as normal (feats that require a +1 BAB cannot be selected yet). Character is proficient in all simple weapons, all ranged martial weapons, two ranged exotic weapons of their choice, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, short sword, hand axe, throwing axe, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, and bucklers.
Level-2: Targetteer-1||Adventurer-1||Sniper-1, 1,000XP. +1 BAB, +6 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +2 FORT save, +2 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, and may continue to distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer, Adventurer, and Sniper class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum number of ranks in class-skills is four (4), and maximum rank in cross-class-skills is two (2). Targetteer class grants no additional class features at 1st-level. Adventurer class and Sniper class both grant Trapfinding class feature at 1st-level, so character gains the benefit once and the overlapping class feature is ignored (debating with DM to let character begin with, or at least later retrain one of the Trapfinding class features to be replaced by Poison Use to prevent wasting a class feature). Sniper class grants +1d6 Ranged Sneak Attack damage class feature, as well as the Sniper class feature allowing character to perform ranged sneak attacks from 0-30 ft as normal, and from 60+ ft (Crossbow Sniper feat will be used to gain the 30-60 ft range).
Level-3: Targetteer-2||Adventurer-2||Sniper-1, 3,000XP. +2 BAB, +6 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +3 FORT save, +3 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, but may now only distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer and Adventurer class-skills are class-skills for the character. If the character chooses to place skill-points in any skill that is exclusively a class-skill for their Sniper class, each rank costs two (2) skill-points instead of one (1). Maximum rank for class-skills is five (5), and maximum rank in cross-class skills is two and a half (2.5). Character receives one (1) bonus feat from the Targetteer-Fighter list, and one (1) bonus feat from the Adventurer-Rogue list. Adventurer class grants the Evasion class feature.
Level-4: Targetteer-3||Adventurer-3||Sniper-1, 6,000XP. +3 BAB, +7 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +3 FORT save, +3 REFL save, +1 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, continues to only distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer and Adventurer class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum rank for class-skills is six (6), and maximum rank in cross-class skills is three (3). Character receives normal level-3 feat that all characters otherwise receive at 3rd-level (delayed by +1 level-adjustment). Adventurer class grants Trap Sense +1 class feature. Character immediately becomes eligible to pay a -3,000XP penalty to reduce their character-level to level-3 to buy out the +1 level-adjustment incurred by beginning as a gestalt character with three (3) apprentice-level classes, and then continues to progress normally from their newly-reduced XP total of 3,000 XP as a level-3 Targetteer-3||Adventurer-3||Sniper-1.
For the sake of transparency, the character will continue placing levels in Targetteer-Fighter and Adventurer-Rogue indefinitely; Sniper-Scout will only receive the 0th/1st-level dip. DM has expressed campaign will progress to level-30, to allow for epic-level play. This character is designed to be fast, be stealthy, and with the exception of carrying some enchanted items/weapons will not use magic in any form. They are designed to primarily dual-wield a pair of Double Hand Crossbows (possibly Double Light Crossbows if Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is pursued), be able to full-attack on the move with an astonishing number of crossbow bolt volleys, carry a great crossbow for long-range sniping, cover large distances with exceptional speed, and strike/remain in the shadows so as to remain hidden whenever possible. DM is allowing for some custom (balanced) feats to progress the Shot-On-The-Run feat chain with iterative attacks, and with off-hand weapon attacks as well; additional custom (balanced) feats are allowed for progressing the Ranged Threat feat chain to allow ranged attacks of opportunity at increasing range, with iterative attacks, and with off-hand weapons. I do not intend to utilize any prestige-classes for this character's build, and plan to simply progress the character to Targetteer-30||Adventurer-30||Sniper-1 (again, going for concept and flavor, not optimization).
We think this is a really well-balanced variant house-rule to stitch two otherwise disparate variant rules together, which allows for variety without being overpowering (or, conversely, being too costly to be worthwhile). Besides, in this application it's for a ridiculously feat-heavy mundane build based off of land speed, ranged attacks, dual-wielding, hand/light crossbows, attacks of opportunity, and sneak attacks... it takes a lot to make that overpowered to start with, since each aspect of that build is less than optimal. What say you, internet?
By RAW, the DM and I think the gestalt rules would function entirely separately from the apprentice-level rules and require the character to begin with 4 classes at level-0, progressing each to level-1 once the character gains 1,000XP. One combination of 2 classes would be used to determine starting (0th-level) HP, class-skills, and skill points (plus starting with +1 in good saves, +0 in bad for the first two combined classes); the other combination would be used to determine HP/class-skills/skill points at 1st-level (with all good saves progressing to +2, bad saves remaining at +0); and the character would receive 4x the normal skill point allotment at 0th-level. As we read the rules, good saves would actually stack between the two sets of gestalt combinations, so the character would begin play at level-0 with +1 FORT, +2 REFL, and +0 WILL... plus whatever good save(s) an arbitrary 4th class would add. DM has also ruled that the Class Defense Bonus rules from Table 4-1 on page-109/110 of Unearthed Arcana are in play, therefore the character would also receive a +6 AC bonus from Fighter/Targetteer class gestalted with Rogue/Adventurer class, and an additional +3 AC bonus from the Scout/Sniper class gestalted with whatever else (subject to being higher of course, depending on 4th class). But this is not actually what I want to achieve, so we're looking at making some house rules to bridge the gap between these two systems that were not designed to function together.
What we've arrived at (and are requesting comments/balancing on) is the following: Gestalt characters normally begin play as level 1-1 in two (2) separate classes, with the full 1st-level benefits of whichever class is superior in each category. Each time the character levels up, they place one (1) level in any two (2) classes of their choosing, and take the best benefits from each class. If a gestalt character wishes to extend their cross-training further to begin play with a 3rd base class, they may do so at the cost of beginning as 0th-level in all three (3) classes, and they gain the best of the 0th-level benefits for all three (3) classes in the same way that a normal gestalt character gains the best of the 1st-level benefits of two (2) classes. This benefit only applies at 0th-level and 1st-level; characters do not continue to progress as triple-gestalt beyond that, and must select only two (2) class levels per level-up for all subsequent levels gained. This variant rule allows characters to gain the best hit die, skill points, class-skills, saving throws, BAB, defense, and class features of three (3) classes at 0th-level and 1st-level, following the otherwise normal rules for gestalt characters. 0th-level characters use the rules and Table 2-22 from page-40/41 of the 3.0 edition Dungeon Master's Guide to determine 0th-level class benefits, with three (3) noted exceptions:
1) 0th-level classes have the same saving throws as their 1st-level counterparts. This preserves the normal pattern of saving throw progressions if back-calculated to include 0th-level (since gestalt rules now prevent redundant bonuses from stacking), prevents the 0th-level character from being significantly underpowered compared to their 1st-level counterparts, and offers no benefits beyond 1st-level in each class that would not otherwise be gained.
2) 0th-level characters begin play with 3x their normal number of skill points, instead of 4x. This is because the gestalt rules are used to override the apprentice-level rules, and keeps the triple-gestalt character's skill-point total at 1st-level (once they progress from 0th-level to 1st-level) equivalent to what it would be had they begun play at 1st-level under the normal gestalt rules, and offers no benefits beyond 1st-level that would not otherwise be gained.
3) Due to these variant rules only applying to gestalt characters, and due to the benefits of these rules only providing the long-term equivalent of gaining 1/2 of a gestalt level, treat the benefits of this variant rule as a voluntary +1 level-adjustment that any character can gain at character creation, if they so choose (even those who already possess level-adjustments from racial or template choices). This allows the character to "buy out" their level-adjustment at a higher level if they so choose, using the rules presented on page-18 of Unearthed Arcana. This is done to balance the "half-level" gained costing the character a full level of progression.
Therefore, we determine this particular character would gain the following class benefits as they progressed:
Level-1: Targetteer-0||Adventurer-0||Sniper-0, 0XP. +0 BAB, +6 AC, 10+CON HP, +2 FORT save, +2 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 3x(8+1+INT) skill-points, and may distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer, Adventurer, and Sniper class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum number of ranks in class-skills is three (3), and maximum rank in cross-class-skills is one and a half (1.5). Character receives the normal level-0 feat that all characters gain at character creation. Character receives one (1) bonus feat from the Targetteer-Fighter list, and one (1) bonus feat from the Adventurer-Rogue list (since these two feat lists are different, the number of bonus feats gained stack, even though they are gained at overlapping levels). The character selects traits, flaws, and additional bonus feats gained from flaw/race selection as normal for an otherwise level-1 character. Character must meet all prerequisites for feats selected as normal (feats that require a +1 BAB cannot be selected yet). Character is proficient in all simple weapons, all ranged martial weapons, two ranged exotic weapons of their choice, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, short sword, hand axe, throwing axe, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, and bucklers.
Level-2: Targetteer-1||Adventurer-1||Sniper-1, 1,000XP. +1 BAB, +6 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +2 FORT save, +2 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, and may continue to distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer, Adventurer, and Sniper class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum number of ranks in class-skills is four (4), and maximum rank in cross-class-skills is two (2). Targetteer class grants no additional class features at 1st-level. Adventurer class and Sniper class both grant Trapfinding class feature at 1st-level, so character gains the benefit once and the overlapping class feature is ignored (debating with DM to let character begin with, or at least later retrain one of the Trapfinding class features to be replaced by Poison Use to prevent wasting a class feature). Sniper class grants +1d6 Ranged Sneak Attack damage class feature, as well as the Sniper class feature allowing character to perform ranged sneak attacks from 0-30 ft as normal, and from 60+ ft (Crossbow Sniper feat will be used to gain the 30-60 ft range).
Level-3: Targetteer-2||Adventurer-2||Sniper-1, 3,000XP. +2 BAB, +6 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +3 FORT save, +3 REFL save, +0 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, but may now only distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer and Adventurer class-skills are class-skills for the character. If the character chooses to place skill-points in any skill that is exclusively a class-skill for their Sniper class, each rank costs two (2) skill-points instead of one (1). Maximum rank for class-skills is five (5), and maximum rank in cross-class skills is two and a half (2.5). Character receives one (1) bonus feat from the Targetteer-Fighter list, and one (1) bonus feat from the Adventurer-Rogue list. Adventurer class grants the Evasion class feature.
Level-4: Targetteer-3||Adventurer-3||Sniper-1, 6,000XP. +3 BAB, +7 AC, +1d10+CON HP, +3 FORT save, +3 REFL save, +1 WILL save. Character receives 8+1+INT skill-points, continues to only distribute skill-points as though all Targetteer and Adventurer class-skills are class-skills for the character. Maximum rank for class-skills is six (6), and maximum rank in cross-class skills is three (3). Character receives normal level-3 feat that all characters otherwise receive at 3rd-level (delayed by +1 level-adjustment). Adventurer class grants Trap Sense +1 class feature. Character immediately becomes eligible to pay a -3,000XP penalty to reduce their character-level to level-3 to buy out the +1 level-adjustment incurred by beginning as a gestalt character with three (3) apprentice-level classes, and then continues to progress normally from their newly-reduced XP total of 3,000 XP as a level-3 Targetteer-3||Adventurer-3||Sniper-1.
For the sake of transparency, the character will continue placing levels in Targetteer-Fighter and Adventurer-Rogue indefinitely; Sniper-Scout will only receive the 0th/1st-level dip. DM has expressed campaign will progress to level-30, to allow for epic-level play. This character is designed to be fast, be stealthy, and with the exception of carrying some enchanted items/weapons will not use magic in any form. They are designed to primarily dual-wield a pair of Double Hand Crossbows (possibly Double Light Crossbows if Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is pursued), be able to full-attack on the move with an astonishing number of crossbow bolt volleys, carry a great crossbow for long-range sniping, cover large distances with exceptional speed, and strike/remain in the shadows so as to remain hidden whenever possible. DM is allowing for some custom (balanced) feats to progress the Shot-On-The-Run feat chain with iterative attacks, and with off-hand weapon attacks as well; additional custom (balanced) feats are allowed for progressing the Ranged Threat feat chain to allow ranged attacks of opportunity at increasing range, with iterative attacks, and with off-hand weapons. I do not intend to utilize any prestige-classes for this character's build, and plan to simply progress the character to Targetteer-30||Adventurer-30||Sniper-1 (again, going for concept and flavor, not optimization).
We think this is a really well-balanced variant house-rule to stitch two otherwise disparate variant rules together, which allows for variety without being overpowering (or, conversely, being too costly to be worthwhile). Besides, in this application it's for a ridiculously feat-heavy mundane build based off of land speed, ranged attacks, dual-wielding, hand/light crossbows, attacks of opportunity, and sneak attacks... it takes a lot to make that overpowered to start with, since each aspect of that build is less than optimal. What say you, internet?