Looking for skillful arcane caster build help

[xandor123]

Hello all!

Just starting a brand new campaign and I'm running into an issue. Our current party is a Human Fighter, Human Cleric, and a Goliath Barbarian. Originally, I created a Spellwarped Whisper Gnome Focused Specialist Conjurer using the Wizard Handbook for creating God. We're starting off at Level 3. Our first session went really well, little fighting, lot of exploring. This is that I'm not really having fun with the character. I got my DM's permission to redo him, but to stay the same race to maintain continuity. My Spellwarped status hasn't come up, so I can most likely change that to whatever I please. I could probably get away with changing my race to a regular Gnome or Halfling, possibly another small humanoid race, but I'd need to get my DM's permission for that. Also, we have the ability to take off up to 3 level adjustments (i.e. playing a Spellwarped template is free). My rolls are 18, 16, 15, 13, 12, 8.

As you can see from the party arrangement, we've got healing, melee, and ranged combat covered. I've set myself up as the one who knows things (I invested in all the Knowledge skills) and as the battlefield controller. I'm sure the latter will come into play later on in the campaign, but for now, I'd also like to be the skillful one. It seems like we're going to be doing a lot of stuff out of combat, so having skills and roleplaying ability will help in addition to the battlefield control that I've already got as a conjurer.

I'm not super concerned about doing sneak attack damage, though I would like to at least contribute to making numbers plink off my opponents when I run out of things to do.

So far, I've looked at Rogue, Bard, Beguiler, and Factotum, but nothing fits with what I want to do exactly. Like I said, ideally, I'd be able to serve as our trap finder and disabler, fount of arcane knowledge, arcane spellcasting primarily for battlefield control with maybe some damage-dealing or save-or-suck spells thrown in for good measure, and all around good guy to have present for an adventuring party.

Thoughts?

Edit: I should also mention that I'm allowed to take up to 2 flaws/traits and I have access to all the books, minus web-only stuff and Dragon Magazine's.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian (Krau/anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard-casting PrCs 5. You'll need at least one flaw, take Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, and any metamagic feat by 5th level, with two flaws also get Versatile Spellcaster. Consider trading Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard). Specialize in Conjurer and take Abrupt Jaunt in PH2.

[xandor123]

I doubt I'll be able to get my DM to agree to switching to Illumian, but the rest sounds okay. Any reason for Beguiler over, say, Rogue or Bard?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I doubt I'll be able to get my DM to agree to switching to Illumian, but the rest sounds okay. Any reason for Beguiler over, say, Rogue or Bard?

The build I suggested is 19/20 Wizard spellcasting, sacrificing a single level to get some amazing skills and synergy. Maybe say he was reincarnated, or even go with a small-size version of Illumian (with dwarfism?) that gets -2 Str, +2 Dex but otherwise standard traits.

Illumian is absolutely necessary for the build to work. They're Humanoid (Human) and qualify for Able Learner, so you can keep up your ranks in those Beguiler class skills without spending cross-class ranks. It also gets the Krau sigil which catches up your caster level, which is necessary in order to apply all ten levels of Ultimate Magus spellcasting to Wizard.

With Beguiler the build only needs Int, plus the normal Dex and Con for AC, saves, and hp. The Beguiler spell list is a toolbox for problem solving, it's better for this type of character than any other spellcasting class.

Again, this is a Wizard build that sacrifices only one level for the Beguiler dip and then eventually gets Beguiler 8 spellcasting.

[xandor123]

The idea is very cool and seems like it would give me the versatility I'd like, but it relies on doing the one thing my DM said I couldn't do: Change my race. He wants to keep the continuity of the current party. Because of that, I can probably make the argument to switch to a different type of Gnome or a Halfling or some other small Humanoid race, but I wouldn't be able to swing the switch to Illumian. I'm also not sure how agreeable he would be about allowing a non-Human/Changeling to take Able Learner, since the feat prereq's specifically state Human and Changeling. Very solid idea and build, but impossible due to DM fiat.

Do you have any ideas on how to rework this to make it work within these restrictions? Or a different build?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the Young template in Pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) which would make you small size. The power sigils can be suppressed, and may have just not manifest themselves yet due to his age.

You could do Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus and take Master Spellthief instead of Practiced Spellcaster, but it requires some shenanigans to get that before 6th level. That doesn't need Illumian for the Krau sigil, but it still can't get Able Learner. If you can find a small size race with human heritage, you could count as human instead of your other parent per the sidebar on Races of Destiny p150 and be able to take Able Learner.

[xandor123]

What's the advantage to taking a level in Spellthief over another level in Wizard?

[NigelWalmsley]

I don't understand why straight Beguiler doesn't work for you. The only things it's missing from your wish list are some knowledges (you pick up more than enough other skills to make up for it) and blasting (which you can get from Arcane Disciple, Knowstones, Runestaves, Prestige Domains, or just Shadowcraft Mage).

[AnimeTheCat]

Hmm, you're somewhat at odds with yourself here.

On the one hand, you want to be a Skilled Arcane caster. To me, that screams Beguiler. 6+int skill points on an Int-based spellcasting class. Gnome works really well with the beguiler spell list (plenty of illusion spells). You've got a decently diverse list, a mechanism to expand it, and you know every spell on your list as soon as you level up and can cast any spell from it at will (so long as you have spells per day left). This is really good, and makes you highly versatile for nearly any situation without any prep work from on your part.

On the other hand, you want to be the "guy who knows things" which immediately speaks Bard to me. Again, 6+int skill points, Bardic Knowledge, and All Knowledge skills as class skills. That's all very tasty. But your spellcasting will suffer if you want to maximize this since Bards are Charisma based spellcasters. They tend to make more favorable party face/speakers, and their spell list is chock full of unique and useful enchantment spells to augment and support this. On top of that, you're a generally weaker spellcaster than the beguiler since you are limited in your spells known, but the Bard does have a much more full spell list to choose from. On top of that, you can be a party buffer in addition to some minor (not the greatest) battlefield control with the summon monster line, and a variety of other spells, but those are going to chew through your spells known quickly.

Which is more important to you, battlefield control or "guy who knows things"? They aren't mutually exclusive, but it does help to have a focus within the two as that will dictate class and abilities that are prioritized.

[xandor123]

I don't understand why straight Beguiler doesn't work for you. The only things it's missing from your wish list are some knowledges (you pick up more than enough other skills to make up for it) and blasting (which you can get from Arcane Disciple, Knowstones, Runestaves, Prestige Domains, or just Shadowcraft Mage).

Beguiler 20 might work. I think the reason I was looking elsewhere were that the spells list left a lot to be desired. When I crafted my Wizard, Enchantment was the first school I threw out to be a Focused Specialist. I like the concept of Arcane Disciple, I've never read about that one before. But really, I was casting about for other ideas I could use from folks who were better at this than I.


Hmm, you're somewhat at odds with yourself here.

On the one hand, you want to be a Skilled Arcane caster. To me, that screams Beguiler. 6+int skill points on an Int-based spellcasting class. Gnome works really well with the beguiler spell list (plenty of illusion spells). You've got a decently diverse list, a mechanism to expand it, and you know every spell on your list as soon as you level up and can cast any spell from it at will (so long as you have spells per day left). This is really good, and makes you highly versatile for nearly any situation without any prep work from on your part.

On the other hand, you want to be the "guy who knows things" which immediately speaks Bard to me. Again, 6+int skill points, Bardic Knowledge, and All Knowledge skills as class skills. That's all very tasty. But your spellcasting will suffer if you want to maximize this since Bards are Charisma based spellcasters. They tend to make more favorable party face/speakers, and their spell list is chock full of unique and useful enchantment spells to augment and support this. On top of that, you're a generally weaker spellcaster than the beguiler since you are limited in your spells known, but the Bard does have a much more full spell list to choose from. On top of that, you can be a party buffer in addition to some minor (not the greatest) battlefield control with the summon monster line, and a variety of other spells, but those are going to chew through your spells known quickly.

Which is more important to you, battlefield control or "guy who knows things"? They aren't mutually exclusive, but it does help to have a focus within the two as that will dictate class and abilities that are prioritized.

You make some really good points. While I had looked at Bard, it's not really what I wanted to go for. I have no plans on being the party "face" and the knowledge skills are just a bonus. I suppose if I really wanted to, I could just take Knowledge Devotion and go that route. Since I was working through the "How to be God" playbook, buffing wasn't ever really something I wanted to do either.

I'd definitely prioritize battlefield control over knowledge. I don't have any problems going straight Beguiler, but I wanted to explore my options first.

[NigelWalmsley]

Beguiler 20 might work. I think the reason I was looking elsewhere were that the spells list left a lot to be desired.

The Beguiler spell list is actually quite solid. At low and mid levels you have multiple spells at every level that end encounters, plus utility spells (sometimes these overlap), and you have tools that counter the things that counter you. Haste is a reliable party buff if none of your other spells do anything (and remember, you're a minionmancer, you should have some goons to eat up the extra Haste target slots). Silent Image beats the mindless things your Enchantments struggle with.


When I crafted my Wizard, Enchantment was the first school I threw out to be a Focused Specialist.

Enchantment and Illusion are much-maligned, but that's in no small part because of how absurdly powerful they are by default. It's true that you can beat Charm Monster with Protection from Evil, but any enemy that doesn't run Protection from Evil (which is most enemies by default) gets recruited into your army, particularly if you have Diplomacy, which the Beguiler does. Illusions have counters, but those counters are similarly rare by default (True Seeing us a 5th level spell, Silent Image is a 1st level spell -- you do the math), and against enemies that don't have them, even the humble Silent Image ranges from "enemies waste their actions" to "win the encounter".


I like the concept of Arcane Disciple, I've never read about that one before.

Arcane Disciple is the basic optimization tool for all the fixed-list casters. It lets you get spells that cover whatever niches you feel aren't covered. This means that while the Beguiler spell list starts looking a little spare at high levels, in practice Beguilers have a brace of domain spells and minions to cover them when casting Power Word Stun or Dominate Monster isn't good enough (which is not that often to begin with). You could also look into Runestaves, perhaps in combination with Ancestral Relic. This may require UMD, but look at that, you get UMD as a class skill.


I don't have any problems going straight Beguiler, but I wanted to explore my options first.

Incidentally: don't go straight Beguiler. Get out as soon as possible with a mind to PrCs like Mindbender (for which any Beguiler worth their salt qualifies automatically -- but remember that the book is lying when it says that there is more than one level of this class), Divine Oracle (this is effectively a way to turn Skill Focus into a better version of Arcane Disciple, and once you have actual domains you can use Substitute Domain like a Cleric), Shadowcraft Mage (adds Evocation and Conjuration to your repertoire, though entering on time is dicey due to a mismatch between the prereqs and your skill list), Mage of the Arcane Order (you have to jump through some hoops, but it covers all your magical versatility needs), Contemplative (again, hoops, but you get a domain of your choosing -- I recommend choosing Spell, provided your DM rules Anyspell works spontaneously), Unseen Seer (if you want to go in a more traditional Rogue-ish direction), or Rainbow Servant (Rainbow Servant is weird, in that it is absolutely mandatory if you get the text version and take all ten levels, but close to garbage otherwise).

Basically, you go Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1 (seriously, I cannot understate how free that one level is). At that point, many paths are open to you. Returning to Beguiler for two levels sets you up for Shadowcraft Mage (depending on how your DM thinks Advanced Learning interacts with gaining "spells known" from a PrC). Alternatively, you have a lot of PrC options (the list above is not comprehensive).

[xandor123]

Very interesting. I'll explore these options, thank you for the comprehensive reply!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What's the advantage to taking a level in Spellthief over another level in Wizard?

It allows you to take the feat Master Spellthief, which adds all of your effective levels in spellcasting classes together to determine your caster level for all of them. It causes math to occur that inflates your caster level very quickly once you start taking Ultimate Magus. It also makes all of your casting classes have an equal caster level, so you can choose to advance your Wizard casting at every level of Ultimate Magus that only advances one of your classes.

Without that, if you only have Practiced Spellcaster, your 7th level of Ultimate Magus can't be applied to your Wizard casting. So you're forced to lose two levels of Wizard casting in the build if you don't go Illumian, and the Master Spellthief route is a way to do that while improving the overall build.



I was about so recommend a Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) build (or adapt it to match the Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) class for a nonevil character), but you'd said no web content. That really comes online at 10th level with Mind Cripple, a TWF build can disable most opponents in one or two full attacks.

If you want to be a spell sneak attacker, you really want to use Sorcerer or another spontaneous class. Per the Rules Compendium's precision damage rules, if a spell makes multiple attacks and takes a full-round action to cast, you can add your precision damage to every attack it makes. (However, some will argue against that due to a separate section of that same book, so it's really up to your DM. If anyone wants to discuss that again please make a new thread.) So a spontaneous caster using Scorching Ray with Split Ray while invisible gets to sneak attack with every shot.

Then there's the oldschool Rogue 4/ Warlock 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, which gets 10d6 sneak attack and 6d6 Eldritch Blast. I'm not a fan of that build because it's extremely weak compared to anything with real spellcasting.

If you want to play a skilled spellcaster who can deal damage when needed, just go Beguiler and pick up a reserve feat. Take Arcane Disciple for the Fire domain along with the Fiery Burst reserve feat, and you can spam Xd6 fire in a 5-ft. radius up to 30 ft. away, X being the highest level spell slot you have available.

[xandor123]

It allows you to take the feat Master Spellthief, which adds all of your effective levels in spellcasting classes together to determine your caster level for all of them. It causes math to occur that inflates your caster level very quickly once you start taking Ultimate Magus. It also makes all of your casting classes have an equal caster level, so you can choose to advance your Wizard casting at every level of Ultimate Magus that only advances one of your classes.

Without that, if you only have Practiced Spellcaster, your 7th level of Ultimate Magus can't be applied to your Wizard casting. So you're forced to lose two levels of Wizard casting in the build if you don't go Illumian, and the Master Spellthief route is a way to do that while improving the overall build.

Ah, I see. I'll have to look into that option as well.

(Since my post count is low, it won't let me quote the second part of your post)

We've already got 3 party members that can easily deal lots of damage, so I'm not super concerned about that. I'd like to contribute, but my main priority is battlefield control and having the option of plinking away at something when I have nothing better to do.

Also, sadly, I wouldn't be able to go Assassin because the DM isn't allowing Evil alignments. I'd LOVE to do the Avenger, but since I can't do web stuff, that's out too. But I'm definitely going to pick up Fiery Burst on whatever I decide. Having the ability to do free damage whenever is pretty appealing.

[Gruftzwerg]

while maybe not as versatile as the other options are, warlock can be a fun way to fill those roles.

1. Trap Finding/Disabling =
a) Summon Swarm: Sure a very limited option, but you can check a few squares with it when you think that there might be a trap.
b) The Dead Walk : let your undead minion check everything suspicious.

2. Opening Locks = Baleful Utterance (Shatter)
Shatter your way free of doors, locks and anything else comes your way.

3. Scouting =
a) Spiderclimb for the low lvls which get replaced by
b) Fly all day long without making footstep sounds
c) Spider Shape (a drow invocation) lets you change into a spider of various size (the smallest is good for hiding and sneaking)
d) Flee the Scene (aka Dimension Door + afterimage from Major Image) lets you enter and leave buildings/rooms without making any noise. You can take even a few buddies with you (depends on CLVL). And since you can use it at will, you can transport your entire party if you have enough time and are not in a hurry.

4. Arcane Knowledge = warlock have access to that: checked

5. Combat Control =
a) Warlocks have access to several battlefield control spells and blasts. Pick those that you like and spam em all day long.
b) Flee the Scene is a great tool to help you teammates out on the battlefield. A squishy teammates got cornered? Run up to him and teleport him out of danger (+ afterimage of both of you to distrct the enemy for 1 round).
Or you Uberchager buddy can't charge due to positioning? Help him out with a teleport to sustain his high dmg.
c) The Dead Walk helps with a few meat shields on the battlemap.

Maybe warlock doesn't have the most optimal tools at hand, but imho they are the most fun way to handle things. And as it seems you seem to look for something not ordinary. Maybe this is what you are looking for?^^

as for race, while gnomes ain't bad, maybe you can convince your DM to a change to a Dragonwrought Kobold for a more optimized race. But that is not really necessary.

[Rebel7284]

Why not the super simple Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5?

While lack of able learner hurts a bit, Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster have a sufficient number of class skills.

Unseen Seer even fits the flavor of someone who knows things.

You can do some fun sneak attack damage in later levels with the combination of good sneak attack damage + (Persisted?) Hunter's Eye + Draconic Polymorph into Kelvedzu or whatever that demon that has 6d6 sneak attack damage.

Maybe stagger your levels in a way that you get Chose Destiny as your final divination spell for Unseen Seer. I hear rolling twice for EVERYTHING and chosing the better result is good in D&D.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why not the super simple Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5?

While lack of able learner hurts a bit, Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster have a sufficient number of class skills.

Unseen Seer even fits the flavor of someone who knows things.

You can do some fun sneak attack damage in later levels with the combination of good sneak attack damage + (Persisted?) Hunter's Eye + Draconic Polymorph into Kelvedzu or whatever that demon that has 6d6 sneak attack damage.

Maybe stagger your levels in a way that you get Chose Destiny as your final divination spell for Unseen Seer. I hear rolling twice for EVERYTHING and chosing the better result is good in D&D.

I'd suggest going Wizard 5 to grab Spontaneous Divination, but otherwise i agree. Arcane Trickster is filler anyway.
Though i think focusing on SA is a trap for Unseen Seer. You're pretty much a wizard getting spells at sorcerer rates, focusing on single target damage is a waste of your talents.
I know Hunter's Eye especially is popular but i certainly wouldn't recommend wasting feats or Advanced Learning on it unless you want to do it for flavor.

Since you're already a gnome anyway you could also replace Arcane Trickster with Shadowcraft Mage, alternating levels between that and US depending on your skill point needs.
Even without SCM illusions can be a lot of fun, especially if you take Shadow Weave Magic and Insidious Magic to deal with True Seeing. Or just splash a single level of Shadow Adept to get all the Shadow Weave feats.

[gorfnab]

Here are some handbooks that may help:
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1240.0)
Unseen Seer Handbook (https://rpgbot.net/dnd35/characters/prestigeclasses/unseenseer/)

I like the build: Human Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF)/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Possible feat options (not in order): Able Learner, Craven, Acidic Splatter, Master Spellthief, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Practiced Spellcaster.

[PanosIs]

I like the build: Human Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF)/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4

I second the Spellthief / Caster / Unseen Seer build as one I have greatly enjoyed myself (Albeit with a Sorcerer base). It's relatively simpl compared to any Ultimate Magus concoction and ends up being a more skilled build as well (plus stealing spells is always fun).

If you want to go for the Ultimate Magus route I would go for the simpler approach of Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus 10 with Practiced Spellcaster. I find the Spellthief dip in this build to be quite inelegant and it will set you down a level of Wizard casting all the way up until level 12.

Finally, on the knowing stuff department Paragnostic Apostle is an easy to enter prestige class that gets you Bardic Knowledge on any arcane caster plus some nifty abilities.

[xandor123]

Quick question, since Ultimate Magus has been brought up a few times. If I go in as Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4, would I be able to be a Conjurer while giving up the Enchantment and Illusion schools? Or would I be neutering my Beguiler side by doing so?

[PanosIs]

Quick question, since Ultimate Magus has been brought up a few times. If I go in as Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4, would I be able to be a Conjurer while giving up the Enchantment and Illusion schools? Or would I be neutering my Beguiler side by doing so?

Yes, you can ban Enchantment and Illusion on the Wizard side and still be able to cast them from the Beguiler side. However keep in mind that the Beguiler side is very neutered as it's up to 6 levels behind the Wizard side.

[xandor123]

After considering my options, I'm looking at going Beguiler and dipping Mindbender. I'm not sure if trying to stack Sneak attack is going to be worth it if I'm not going to roll with a Rogue. On the one hand, my low HP seems prohibitive of getting up close and personal. On the other hand, if I change my template from Spellwarped to Dark, I'd have a pretty stupid + to Hide and Move Silently, plus taking the Darkstalker feat to make me even harder to detect seems like it would open me up to being able to do lots of SA damage. But, on the other other hand, I'm not sure how much I'd be neutering myself by attempting to go for both casting and SA.

Edit: I suppose that's the point of sneak attack, though. Move around in the shadows after I get through buffing/controlling/whatever and then stab a dude in the liver. Just wondering, if I go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 10/ Whatever, I'd only be dealing 4d6 SA damage at level 16, plus only getting my SA damage starting at level 7. Just wondering if I should throw a level of Rogue in there somewhere to kickstart things. Or maybe I'm overthinking things.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is prestige bard an option?

[xandor123]

Is prestige bard an option?

I don't suppose why not, but it doesn't look like a very good option. Needs 8 ranks in perform, which is cross-class for me, and it loses a lot of caster levels.

[tiercel]

Arcane caster plus knowledge-monkey that weaponizes Knowledge checks? Urban savant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?164628-Underrated-PRCs-The-Urban-Savant)waves hi. (Possibly with Beguiler entry?)

[xandor123]

Hmm.... Possible, but I don't see the draw. Given that it's a brand new campaign, I'm unsure of the typical setting. It's a homebrewed world, but I'm not sure how much time we'll be chilling out in an urban area vs wilderness/dungeons/whatever. Worst case scenario, I'd have to put 4 levels into the PrC to come out with a (admittedly VERY) useful ability. But burning that many skill ranks on cross-class skills plus a feat doesn't really seem worth it to me.