Do you help the DM or try and “get away” with things?

[Spo]

I assume keeping track of everything going on in combat encounters is a lot of work for a DM. This is especially true if it is a big party (there are six of us players) fighting multiple creatures at one time usually (we are around lvl 17/18 of Mad Mage).

During combat, I’ll mention certain things to the DM that he seemingly has forgotten. It usually is certain conditions/effects on individuals. For instance, I’ll say “isn’t he still prone” or “the effects of his shield spell are over with because he had his turn since casting it” or “does he lose concentration on the spell because he took damage” Typically the DM will thank me or simply mention he forgot and change the outcome if appropriate. I do this for both NPC’s and PC’s alike.

The are two players that give me stink eye when I include their characters in my observations and will sometimes mutter “can’t blame me for trying to get away with it”.

My intention is to not become the “fair play” police, but it does grind my gears to see these attempts at cheating. Perhaps I should just stay in my own lane, but people trying to pull one over on the DM is simply wrong in my opinion.

Am I just a stick on the mud and let people play the way they want to play, or continue helping out the DM in keeping track of things?

[Rynjin]

Anyone who deliberately tries to cheat is an *******. I don't think there's anything wrong with making sure everything's above board as a player, because that's how you ensure things stay fun and fair.

[Sigreid]

If I catch something, I'll mention it. Sometimes mention if it looks like the DM is having an opponent overlook an obvious thing to do that would be more punishing than what he's having it do.

Edit: Others in my group do this too, and we sometimes refer to the person who does it jokingly as a "buddy molester".

[sithlordnergal]

I tend to help out the DM and remind them of things...to both the benefit and detriment of my party.

[MaxWilson]

I assume keeping track of everything going on in combat encounters is a lot of work for a DM. This is especially true if it is a big party (there are six of us players) fighting multiple creatures at one time usually (we are around lvl 17/18 of Mad Mage).

During combat, I’ll mention certain things to the DM that he seemingly has forgotten. It usually is certain conditions/effects on individuals. For instance, I’ll say “isn’t he still prone” or “the effects of his shield spell are over with because he had his turn since casting it” or “does he lose concentration on the spell because he took damage” Typically the DM will thank me or simply mention he forgot and change the outcome if appropriate. I do this for both NPC’s and PC’s alike.

The are two players that give me stink eye when I include their characters in my observations and will sometimes mutter “can’t blame me for trying to get away with it”.

My intention is to not become the “fair play” police, but it does grind my gears to see these attempts at cheating. Perhaps I should just stay in my own lane, but people trying to pull one over on the DM is simply wrong in my opinion.

Am I just a stick on the mud and let people play the way they want to play, or continue helping out the DM in keeping track of things?

I'm definitely with you--I try to enforce the reality of the rules. Not so much for the DM's sake as for all of our suspension of disbelief.


If I catch something, I'll mention it. Sometimes mention if it looks like the DM is having an opponent overlook an obvious thing to do that would be more punishing than what he's having it do.

Edit: Others in my group do this too, and we sometimes refer to the person who does it jokingly as a "buddy molester".

Sounds like a bowdlerized Army joke...

[Cheesegear]

Am I just a stick on the mud and let people play the way they want to play, or continue helping out the DM in keeping track of things?

I am currently playing in a similar group. I usually DM. But in my second group, I ended up being a player for...Reasons. I offered to DM the second group, too. But no. Why not? Don't know.

But the DM is...Surprisingly bad at reading. He's good with numbers. But his reading comprehension is real bad.

I've noticed that he typically reads the first sentences of a spell or ability, figures out what it does, then stops reading. However, it's those later sentences that typically contain the drawbacks or limitations of an ability "Does not affect Undead." or "Creatures immune to Charm, are immune to this ability." The DM does it all the time, and, knowing that the DM wont read or check almost anything, the other players have started doing this too.

A particularly egregious example is the players keep using spells that only affect Humanoids, but use them on Fiends and Monstrosities. I keep 'cucking' the party, saying the spell doesn't work.

The DM will ask a player what a spell does, and a player will give the minimum required information. That is, the effect of the spell. Not how it works or when it ends. The DM wont check because he's not going to read anything.

We also have massive problems with the Human Spellcasters in the party not having Darkvision, and trying to cast spells:
"No, you're Blinded."
"No, the Bright/Dim Light doesn't go that far."
"No, you need Line of Sight."
And similar.

As a player playing a Martial character in this party (because I actually do know the DM, and what he's like, and I don't want to complicate things), I get really angry when players use magic to do what it doesn't do, and I stop the players from cheating. Because at this point they're no longer 'making mistakes'. They're straight up omitting important information from the DM, knowing that he wont check.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I always do it when I am a player.

Last time I played our battlemaster artificer didn't knew how is protector worked.
So I asked him "shouldn't the protector turn be only after yours and not at the same time as your turn?"
"Shouldn't you add +2 to his attacks and +6 to the damage?"
I continued by quoting the rule for it from memory and the DM quickly checked and approved it.

I sometimes say something wrong that make people go and check it themselves. But I try to avoid it in games where I am considered the pool of knowledge for rules.

I believe the frame of rules enable RP without it everything is a "Mother may I" situation so I do my best to make sure they are followed.


When I DM I DM for my friends. And I expect them to remember their own abilities.

I usually make them pay for forgetting.
One time a player forgot her character was immune to poison, I remind her only after the battle end.

I also make my players count the duration of their abilities.

I will remind them the rules if they are going into a TPK bit otherwise it is their problem.

[Toadkiller]

We have several players, including myself, who also DM. When the DM of the moment doesn’t have a rules answer handy or, more rarely, makes a mistake about a written rule one of more us will politely mention the rule. (That said, I assume there are times when we all miss it. )

When this happens two things occur. Someone who didn’t catch it will playfully mention”we are on the *same team* player-who-caught-it”. Also, we let the DM rule as they will based on the information provided. Sometimes they go with the rule in the book, sometimes they make a ruling based on what feels right in the moment. Life isn’t fair princess, anybody that tells you differently is selling something.

This seems to keep us reasonably close to the rules, there is an unspoken consensus that nobody wants to cheat, and we stay within the general guidelines of the rules.

[Sigreid]

Sounds like a bowdlerized Army joke...

I was navy, but yes in honor of the forum rules I did clean up the statement. hehe

[Kemev]

Am I just a stick on the mud and let people play the way they want to play, or continue helping out the DM in keeping track of things?

I don't think you're being a stick in the mud. I used to play a lot of competitive war games and MTG, where it's all players' responsibility to keep track of the rules, and omitting or misrepresenting rules in that context is clearly cheating.

In a D&D setting I might not label it cheating, but I'd still be unhappy if that was how the other players acted. It's probably something I'd bring up outside of a game session, ask something like, "Hey, we're all playing by the rules right?" and try to get a conversation going from there.




When I DM I DM for my friends... I usually make them pay for forgetting.
One time a player forgot her character was immune to poison, I remind her only after the battle end.

I'd be pretty frustrated if a DM did that in our group. If I'm DM'ing, I might not reasonably be able to keep track of every ability for every player, but deliberately withholding relevant information violates the same principle as above.

Besides the bad-faith vibe, it also creates some weird story discontinuities. Like, my Yuan-Ti character is a snake person who's always immune to snake venom... except for in this one fight, where my character somehow forgot they were a snake person and were injured by giant snake venom?

[Sigreid]

I'd be pretty frustrated if a DM did that in our group. If I'm DM'ing, I might not reasonably be able to keep track of every ability for every player, but deliberately withholding relevant information violates the same principle as above.

Besides the bad-faith vibe, it also creates some weird story discontinuities. Like, my Yuan-Ti character is a snake person who's always immune to snake venom... except for in this one fight, where my character somehow forgot they were a snake person and were injured by giant snake venom?

When I DM I don't "punish" people who forget things, but my group does know that I've got enough going on on my side of the game and I need them to know their characters and their abilities because I'm not tracking that stuff at all. Fortunately I've got a good group of friends that people aren't going to abuse my trust.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'd be pretty frustrated if a DM did that in our group. If I'm DM'ing, I might not reasonably be able to keep track of every ability for every player, but deliberately withholding relevant information violates the same principle as above.

Besides the bad-faith vibe, it also creates some weird story discontinuities. Like, my Yuan-Ti character is a snake person who's always immune to snake venom... except for in this one fight, where my character somehow forgot they were a snake person and were injured by giant snake venom?
Placebo/Nocebo are the best explanations(this happens with a Yuan-Ti based race against blinking spiders)
After two rounds I told the player that her character suddenly remembered they are immune to poison and told them the right HP value they should have.
They never forgot about the immunity again.
I do it rarely and it always work.

When I tell someone he got 9 piecing and 20 poison damage I expect him to tell me "I am immune to poison"

If I tell a barbarian to roll a dex save and that he sees the effect I expect him to roll with advantage (danger senses).

I believe the players should know how the PCs works and use it according to the rules.
If someone wants to cheat he can do it(like using more spell slots then he have) as I don't track the PCs.

I only concern myself with the NPCs and the world.

[huttj509]

When I notice it I tend to mention it, depending on the situation, significance, and flow. I don't want to derail stuff, so sometimes it's an after session "by the way" thing.

Sometimes it's in the party's favor, sometimes not, there have been many cries of "look, I'm lawful NEUTRAL, I can't deliberately skew my rules lawyering."

[MoiMagnus]

I'm usually "second in command" in term of homebrew design. Trust between me and the DM that all my rulings are in the benefice of fun & balance for everyone is very important.

So yes, I would definitely help the DM.

I might consider letting "the player get away with it" if I consider that's not an appropriate moment to enter rule discussions / that it would ruin the pacing (e.g. if I notice the issues way later, and backtracking would be a mess). But I would definitely not appreciate if someone willingly forgot negative effects for his/her own convenience.

[Gtdead]

I am a stickler for rules. If the DM misses something I usually bring it to his attention.

[Composer99]

Playing a game is a kind of agreement to abide by the rules, conventions, and mores of the game - all the more so with a table top rpg where the rules are often mutable by social contract.

Trying to pull a fast one on the DM is violating the spirit of this agreement, so I think you are correct to raise such issues despite the ire of your fellow players.

[Lunali]

It isn't players vs DM, it's players and DM working together to make a story. Intentionally breaking rules to make life easier for your character is cheating everyone, not just the DM.

That said, there are a few rules I let slip for the players that aren't intentionally breaking the rules, just because it'll be more fun that way. The most common example being weapon switching in combat.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Ha, the latter has gotten me to approach certain questions differently in game for the last few years, and my players are finally coming to understand that I'm not actually trying to kill them.

Some player starts asking about some bizarre detail to try and pull something off, the sort of thing that would slow the game down while I consider the precise geometry of the room or the weight of a thing and- okay, stop it. Stop all that.

"Tell me what you're trying to do."

They'll tell me, and I'll tell them if and how they can do what they want to do, or give them a specific reason why not. I'm open to suggestions if I said no and they have a certain ability I wasn't thinking of, and I'm much more amenable to an open discussion of it instead of trying to get a litany of yesses to let them abuse some aspect of game design.

I'm trying to practice what I preach when I get to be a player, with some limited success. I really enjoy pulling off a Houdini, and it's a bad habit that should be broken. The DM is not my enemy.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ha, the latter has gotten me to approach certain questions differently in game for the last few years, and my players are finally coming to understand that I'm not actually trying to kill them.

Some player starts asking about some bizarre detail to try and pull something off, the sort of thing that would slow the game down while I consider the precise geometry of the room or the weight of a thing and- okay, stop it. Stop all that.

"Tell me what you're trying to do."

They'll tell me, and I'll tell them if and how they can do what they want to do, or give them a specific reason why not. I'm open to suggestions if I said no and they have a certain ability I wasn't thinking of, and I'm much more amenable to an open discussion of it instead of trying to get a litany of yesses to let them abuse some aspect of game design.

I'm trying to practice what I preach when I get to be a player, with some limited success. I really enjoy pulling off a Houdini, and it's a bad habit that should be broken. The DM is not my enemy.

I very much agree with this. Especially the bold part. I'm working with the party to discover their story (I certainly don't know what it is by myself). Before I can fairly adjudicate a proposed action (especially if it's a hypothetical), I need to know what the overall desired outcome is. That way I can determine what might work and what won't work. And communicate that. It changes what factors I have to consider. While this is absolutely vital for social things (where I need to know what you want from the NPC before you can really do anything mechanical), it also matters for anything not directly stated in the rules.

On the main topic, I would like if my players pointed things out to me. I miss stuff all the time, because I'm trying to track everything. Since I mostly play with new players, that also means keeping a weather eye on their character sheets (to give advice if nothing else). Like last session I missed the fact that the enemies should have been shooting at advantage because they could see the party and the party couldn't see them[1]. But I forgot (because some bandits were visible and some weren't). And that's with a VTT keeping track of things like line of sight and visibility.

[1] no one in the party has darkvision. And they were in a cave, carrying lights. The bandits couldn't see in the dark either (their lights were further back because they didn't want to attract attention in the first place, but the party was nicely lit up, so...

[da newt]

My natural inclination is to try to assist the DM by reminding them of rules, conditions, etc while also allowing them to make rulings. I like to do this for the DM and my party members the same, offering options and rules as I know them. Like a lawyer, I'll make my case, but it's up to the DM / Judge to rule.

This seems right to me, but it isn't always well received no matter how well intentioned. It's often depends on the DM's preferences, and once I figure them out, I do my best to adjust.

If I'm attempting to bend the rules, I'll make my argument for why I ought to be able to, but I'll also freely admit that I'm pushing RAW or convention.

[furby076]

I mention anytime something is forgotten or a rule played wrong. If i realize i did something wrong, Ill call it out and amend for the next time (my dm rarely retros). At first a couple folks in the group complained. They weren't trying to cheat, they didn't know the rule either. Eventually they realize the sword is double edged and can help them. The DM appreciates it. The group has come to appreciate it. They know it'snot about being the "nanny police", but about keeping it fair for all

[Kemev]

When I tell someone he got 9 piecing and 20 poison damage I expect him to tell me "I am immune to poison"

If I tell a barbarian to roll a dex save and that he sees the effect I expect him to roll with advantage (danger senses).

I believe the players should know how the PCs works and use it according to the rules.
If someone wants to cheat he can do it(like using more spell slots then he have) as I don't track the PCs.

I only concern myself with the NPCs and the world.

Let me wind this back to MTG. Let's say I have a spell that says "Destroy target creature" and you have a a creature with Hexproof (this creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control). I cast my spell anyway, and you forget about Hexproof and let your creature die. After the match I mention, "Oh, you should learn how hexproof works and keep track of it."

I've cheated.

These examples fall in the same area. For any kind of tabletop game, it's everyone's responsibility to make a good faith effort to keep track of the rules. If you've made a deliberate choice to withhold relevant info, that's crossed the line (if someone accidentally forgets something, that's a different story).

I'm assuming the way you DM for your group works for you and your friends, which is fine. But I really strongly advise against this approach.

[Hilary]

DMs have a lot of pies spinning on a lot of sticks. It makes sense to assign one player to help the DM keep track of stuff, like conditions and HP in combat. It doesn't dispel the verisimilitude for all if it's only one player helping.

Someone who runs a popular stream addressed this, but I cannot call who.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Let me wind this back to MTG. Let's say I have a spell that says "Destroy target creature" and you have a a creature with Hexproof (this creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control). I cast my spell anyway, and you forget about Hexproof and let your creature die. After the match I mention, "Oh, you should learn how hexproof works and keep track of it."

I've cheated.

These examples fall in the same area. For any kind of tabletop game, it's everyone's responsibility to make a good faith effort to keep track of the rules. If you've made a deliberate choice to withhold relevant info, that's crossed the line (if someone accidentally forgets something, that's a different story).

I'm assuming the way you DM for your group works for you and your friends, which is fine. But I really strongly advise against this approach.

I do have lines, I will not do something that bad.
Telling them now or later depends on the player, the character and the situation.
I do it when it will not be impactful. I want them to know that in another situation forgetting it can be a problem, I don't want my friends to have bad time. After all this is a game and everyone should have fun playing.

[BisectedBrioche]

Personally, I try to collaborate with the DM to make a better game.

Sometimes that means playing along (for example, recently in a Session -1 game, my character failed all her perception saves, so I walked into an obviously suspicious situation), sometimes that means challenging them (for example, said character was basically an attempt to slip in as many Metroid references as I could get away with).

Conversely the DM should try to stay in control, but give players some freedom to derail.

[nickl_2000]

I never try and "get away" with things, although I cheat on accident every once in awhile because I make a mistake or forget to roll a concentration check. As players at the table, we remind each other of things.

If the DM makes a mistake, it depends on what it is and how significant it is. A small mistake is ignored or mentioned privately in an IM afterwards, a large one is mentioned as "the rules say this, but if you want to play it this way just let me know" during the session.


If anyone were to intentionally cheat, that would likely get them kicked out of the table, but we have all played for a long time together.

[sundernaught]

I assume keeping track of everything going on in combat encounters is a lot of work for a DM. This is especially true if it is a big party (there are six of us players) fighting multiple creatures at one time usually (we are around lvl 17/18 of Mad Mage).

During combat, I’ll mention certain things to the DM that he seemingly has forgotten. It usually is certain conditions/effects on individuals. For instance, I’ll say “isn’t he still prone” or “the effects of his shield spell are over with because he had his turn since casting it” or “does he lose concentration on the spell because he took damage” Typically the DM will thank me or simply mention he forgot and change the outcome if appropriate. I do this for both NPC’s and PC’s alike.

The are two players that give me stink eye when I include their characters in my observations and will sometimes mutter “can’t blame me for trying to get away with it”.

My intention is to not become the “fair play” police, but it does grind my gears to see these attempts at cheating. Perhaps I should just stay in my own lane, but people trying to pull one over on the DM is simply wrong in my opinion.

Am I just a stick on the mud and let people play the way they want to play, or continue helping out the DM in keeping track of things?I think that is just a helpful thing to do. I do this too when able to. As someone with a learning disability, I often get features, abilities, and spells mixed up. I take pains to help myself remember but at high levels there are so many things going on that it is easy to forget a detail here and there and it might have a big impact.


Placebo/Nocebo are the best explanations(this happens with a Yuan-Ti based race against blinking spiders)
After two rounds I told the player that her character suddenly remembered they are immune to poison and told them the right HP value they should have.
They never forgot about the immunity again.
I do it rarely and it always work.

When I tell someone he got 9 piecing and 20 poison damage I expect him to tell me "I am immune to poison"

If I tell a barbarian to roll a dex save and that he sees the effect I expect him to roll with advantage (danger senses).

I believe the players should know how the PCs works and use it according to the rules.
If someone wants to cheat he can do it(like using more spell slots then he have) as I don't track the PCs.

I only concern myself with the NPCs and the world.


I do have lines, I will not do something that bad.
Telling them now or later depends on the player, the character and the situation.
I do it when it will not be impactful. I want them to know that in another situation forgetting it can be a problem, I don't want my friends to have bad time. After all this is a game and everyone should have fun playing. I would be very upset if a DM did this to me and would probably leave the game it it happened multiple times. It does not matter if it works (and I doubt it would if I were a player at your table) and I would argue it is bad to do in the first place.

You said yourself that the point is to have fun and I would feel as if my friend was punishing me because I struggle to keep all my abilities together despite trying my hardest. I am not saying you are doing so to be mean or that you are a bad person but this sort of ruling could very easily hurt someone's feelings and make you seem like you care more about the rules than the players having fun.

It would be more constructive to find other ways of helping them remember. Cards are very helpful for me, for example. Keep in mind that everyone is not you, remembering things can be a struggle for some of us

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm definitely with you--I try to enforce the reality of the rules. Not so much for the DM's sake as for all of our suspension of disbelief.
Sounds like a bowdlerized Army joke...

I was navy, but yes in honor of the forum rules I did clean up the statement. hehe I think this joke is related to its cousin, that goes something like this: Buddy's only half of a word. :smallwink: The other similar Navalism is "Thanks, shipmate" with a tone of voice that indicates anything but thanks ... :smallcool:

But the DM is...Surprisingly bad at reading. He's good with numbers. But his reading comprehension is real bad.

We also have massive problems with the Human Spellcasters in the party not having Darkvision, and trying to cast spells:
"No, you're Blinded."
"No, the Bright/Dim Light doesn't go that far."
"No, you need Line of Sight."
And similar.

As a player playing a Martial character in this party (because I actually do know the DM, and what he's like, and I don't want to complicate things), I get really angry when players use magic to do what it doesn't do, and I stop the players from cheating. Because at this point they're no longer 'making mistakes'. They're straight up omitting important information from the DM, knowing that he wont check. I have two players who with great frequency try to cast a spell or use an ability and claim that "it does this" - even though they are careless to lazy in looking up their own spells and their own class abilities.

If these weren't people I've known for years I might be more annoyed. Since I have a decent amount of rules mastery, I simply say (as either a playr or as DM) actually, it works like this.

I have another group who are extremely helpful to me, the DM, in making sure we apply the abilities and such as described; they are a great blessing to a DM.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I would be very upset if a DM did this to me and would probably leave the game it it happened multiple times. It does not matter if it works (and I doubt it would if I were a player at your table) and I would argue it is bad to do in the first place.

You said yourself that the point is to have fun and I would feel as if my friend was punishing me because I struggle to keep all my abilities together despite trying my hardest. I am not saying you are doing so to be mean or that you are a bad person but this sort of ruling could very easily hurt someone's feelings and make you seem like you care more about the rules than the players having fun.

It would be more constructive to find other ways of helping them remember. Cards are very helpful for me, for example. Keep in mind that everyone is not you, remembering things can be a struggle for some of us

As I wrote, it also depends on the player.
If you played with me as a DM or player and told me you have a learning disability I would ask you how can I help you to remember the rules and your ability.

If you told me you would like to be reminded I would just add this to my notes and remind you.

[Willie the Duck]

The are two players that give me stink eye when I include their characters in my observations and will sometimes mutter “can’t blame me for trying to get away with it”.

This is really, to me, the fundamental issue. To these players, using the DM's limited attention or game rule knowledge to obtain some success they wouldn't obtain by the rules as implemented with perfect precision is, as it were, 'part of the game.' You disagree. This is one of those perennial questions that goes around along with whether the party thief should steal from/withhold treasure from the party, what kind of metagaming is allowed, and where the "it's what my character would do" line of defense ends. The simple answer is, whether this is acceptable is going to depend on the group. If the group enjoys this extra level of competition, and the DM's response to the player trying to get away with something is, "nice try, next time it'll be me trying to pull one over on you," then the whole thing might be acceptable. However, if this isn't the case, then no this isn't okay. I don't have any way to check the numbers, but my gut instinct is that most players and play groups prefer to have an established set of rules, and then you try to succeed by playing as well as you can within those rules.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This is really, to me, the fundamental issue. To these players, using the DM's limited attention or game rule knowledge to obtain some success they wouldn't obtain by the rules as implemented with perfect precision is, as it were, 'part of the game.' You disagree. This is one of those perennial questions that goes around along with whether the party thief should steal from/withhold treasure from the party, what kind of metagaming is allowed, and where the "it's what my character would do" line of defense ends. The simple answer is, whether this is acceptable is going to depend on the group. If the group enjoys this extra level of competition, and the DM's response to the player trying to get away with something is, "nice try, next time it'll be me trying to pull one over on you," then the whole thing might be acceptable. However, if this isn't the case, then no this isn't okay. I don't have any way to check the numbers, but my gut instinct is that most players and play groups prefer to have an established set of rules, and then you try to succeed by playing as well as you can within those rules.

This reminds me of one of the cleanest games I remember playing in recent memory; the DM was the least knowledgeable person at the table when it came to the rules, as everyone else was a veteran DM with decades of experience. We openly discussed rules interactions and came to consensuses on what we could and couldn't do with speed and accuracy. It wasn't meant to cut out the DM or anything or even to be used as an advantage. To the contrary, we openly ruled against ourselves and even gave recommendations to the DM about how best to beat us- pointing out what advantages the enemies held, when they had reactions to use, etc. And tut-tutted ourselves when an ally tried to do something that shouldn't work.

It was a lot of fun, actually, and the challenge felt great. I should play with other DM's more often.