3.5 Best way to let One Player play Two Characters

[Adamantrue]

I'm working on a higher level one-shot, for 3-4 players.

I'll be building an array of characters for the players to choose from, and I'm trying to make each option distinct, so that no matter what each player chooses, they get to play around with something unique. They'll be 15th level Gestalt.

However, one of the options I want to offer is a pair of characters. A Warforged Scout (Knight//Martial Rogue) that uses a Warforged (Fighter//Warlock) as a Mount. Backstory is largely irrelevant, they are legacies of a long ago war that now serve in a local militia as peacekeepers, but making the specifics of it work means they have to be treated as a single character, rather than as a pair.

As such, I'm considering lowering their levels to 13th, and locking their Advancement together (shouldn't matter since its intended for a one-shot, but you never know). I'll be splitting the funds for a single 15th level character between them as well.

I'm basing this on Monster CR from the DMG, specifically the rules for doubling.

However, just looking at it, I'm not sure if this balances out enough. There is a much bigger difference between a 1st-3rd levels than 13th-15th levels. At the same time, splitting the WBL for a 15th level character between two 13ths compromises a lot.

For reference to cross-check, the other character options so far include a Human Soulknife//Duskblade 15, a Half-Orc Barbarin//Adept 15, a Minotaur//Crusader 13, a Daelkyr Half Blood Binder//Divine Mind 15, a Dwarf CW Samurai//Swordsage 15, a Dwarf Monk//Ranger 15, a Kiloren Hexblade//Ninja 15, and a Human Paladin//Marshal 15.

I need second opinions on how to balance this out.

[Bronk]

How about a warlock//martial rogue warforged centaur?

[Adamantrue]

The premise is that, during the war, the Warforged Scouts would sometimes do reconnaissance, while the Warforged stayed in camp building or repairing equipment (or repairing each other). However, when engaged in battle, the two would work as act as a single unit.

I should also mention that there is some Homebrew working in the background for some of these characters. For example, the Warforged Scout's Knight levels trade Armor Mastery for "Improved Plating +2" at 4th level, and "Improved Plating +4" at 9th level. And the Warforged is a Homebrewed Warforged called a Warforged Simian with a LA +1, so its really only got 12 Class Levels of Fighter//Warlock.

• Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged simians are constructs with the living construct subtype. Refer to the standard Warforged entry for additional details.
• +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Warforged simians are stronger and tougher than standard warforged, but have similar mental attributes due to similar experience.
• Medium-size.
• Warforged simian base land speed is 40 feet.
• Simian Shape: Warforged simains are naturally quadrupeds. As a quadruped, your load capacity is increased, and gain appropriate bonuses such as against bull rush or trip attempts.
You cannot perform actions that would require both hands simultaneously, hold an item in each hand, or hold an object larger than a light weapon.
As a swift action, you can rear onto your legs, and act as a biped. While reared, you can use both hands simultaneously, or wield two-handed weapons, but your base land speed is halved (rounding up). You may return to a quadrupedal stance as a free action.
• Powerful Build: The physical stature of a warforged simian lets it function in many ways as if it were one size category larger. Refer to the Goliath entry for additional details.
• Composite Plating: The plating used to build a warforged simian provides a +2 armor bonus, a 5% arcane spell failure chance, and is treated as light armor. Refer to the standard Warforged entry for additional details.
• Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a warforged simian, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
• Natural Attack: A warforged simian has a natural weapon in the form of a slam attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.
• Gifted Climber: A warforged simian's body style grants a +4 racial bonus to Climb checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass warforged simian's fighter class does not count when determining whether it takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
• Level Adjustment: +1.

[Batcathat]

Is there any reason you can't have them as two separate characters (either two PCs or one of them an NPC) working together?

[Adamantrue]

Because there is no guarantee that both would be picked. I'm making 9 Characters (with these two counting as one) for the Players to select from, with the intention of having 3 to 4 Players. But I intend to build them specifically to work in this manner.

[Bronk]

Maybe these warforged are the results of secretive experiments on Dvati twins, the likes of which have never been replicated before or since?

[Adamantrue]

Its more like they were specifically constructed for each other, like a set. That's not the part that is important, though.

I was thinking of simply splitting the appropriate XP for 15th level characters between them, but that would put them both at ECL 11 (more or less, slight fudging). In time, it would equate to about 3/4 Class progression (I know it technically doesn't matter since its a one-shot, but you never know), so they both would be at about 16th when everyone else would be at 20th.

But, that would actually mean they were slightly over-equipped for their level, splitting 15th level wealth between them. This would hold true down the lane as well.

[Tiktakkat]

Make the "mount" the cohort of the PC "riding" him, and be 2 levels lower.
Or 3.
Or whatever with the LA, as long as it looks "right" on paper.

[Telonius]

I'd have a couple of concerns. One of the scarcest resources in 3.5 is the action economy. Two separate (non-gestalted) 13th-level characters would have twice as many actions as a single gestalted 15th-level character, and that is very, very big. It's the reason that Leadership is considered one of the most powerful feats in the game, even if the cohort is a couple of levels below you.

That said, WBL is also an extremely important thing. The game assumes that characters at a certain level are going to have access to a certain amount of magic items. So splitting the expected WBL in two, between two characters, also breaks some of the assumptions you'd generally make about character power. Each of the two characters is going to have to decide to sacrifice offense, defense, or utility items. They'll be less effective overall than you'd otherwise expect them to be. This will be even more evident if they're being played as generally melee characters, since equipment matters more to them.

I would have a serious talk with all the players before you start, if you're going to try this. It may end up that the pair of characters turn out to be a lot more or less powerful than the rest of the team; or it might work out about even. Either way, you may need to make some adjustments to things after you see how it plays out, and it will make it easier for everybody if they're on board with making changes before you start playing.

[Adamantrue]

[Lots of Stuff that had me concerned from the get-go]

I would have a serious talk with all the players before you start, if you're going to try this. It may end up that the pair of characters turn out to be a lot more or less powerful than the rest of the team; or it might work out about even. Either way, you may need to make some adjustments to things after you see how it plays out, and it will make it easier for everybody if they're on board with making changes before you start playing.

I agree. I'm just going to have to consider this as an experiment.

My initial hope for this post was that there was already a guideline that had been established, somewhere in the long history of 3.5, whether by the communities or by some experimental individuals.

I'm going to run with my initial plan in this particular case, for a few reasons. Both the Knight half and the Warlock half of the two characters key off Charisma for some Class Abilities (including Save DCs) in addition to decrease from being lower level, which makes going Warforged a sub-optimal choice. The way Wealth is being handled should also be a significant factor, stretching things even thinner between the various Gestalts.

If I drop either of their levels any lower, I'm concerned that their Class Abilities won't be able to meaningfully contribute, leaving them as mere melee bots (um, no pun intended).

I'm still open to a more balanced option, if anyone has one.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, it might be worth looking at the Symbiotic Creature template from Savage Species. Now, that template is broken to high heaven if misused, but it does give you two creatures working together with the action economy of a single character. Plus, the fact that you're using two already made creatures nips a lot of the potential problems/abuses in the bud.

You'd have to tweak the separation and recombination mechanic to be usable more often, and probably impose a rule that when together they have to be combined.

Alternatively/additionally, declaring that they only get one full turn's worth of actions to share between them, even when separated, would prevent any abusing the action economy.

Another source of inspiration would be the Dvati, a race from Dragon Compendium where each 'individual' is two bodies sharing a single soul. Each body gets its own full turn of actions, but they share a single pool of daily resources (e.g. Bardic Music), have half HP each, and have limits on both of them spellcasting in the same turn.

[unseenmage]

Troop subtype from PF could be retooled.

Symbiotic and Tauric templates combine two creatures each. Monstrous Lycanthrope could work too in a way.

The Amalgam template literally combines two creatures.

Wielding an Intelligeng Magic Item can involve roleplaying two personalities. As can Leadership or Thrallherd.

Dvati or gestalt would be my preferred go-to though.

Using the above to strike a balance between action economy abuse and WBL shortage would be key.

[Vaern]

The description of gestalt characters says that the variant itself is basically a way to let players play two characters at once. The drawback of gestalt characters is that, while you have the abilities of two separate characters, you're still bound by the action economy of one characters.
Rather than making the double character two separate gestalt characters, instead make them a pair of regular characters that act as a single gestalt character. Give them each only one class level per character level, and restrict the pair to a single set of actions per round.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would just treat Leadership as an LA +1 template. Simple, effective.




The description of gestalt characters says that the variant itself is basically a way to let players play two characters at once.
It doesn't say that at all. In fact, it goes out of its way to emphasize it is not equivalent to playing two characters at once.


Rather than making the double character two separate gestalt characters, instead make them a pair of regular characters that act as a single gestalt character. Give them each only one class level per character level, and restrict the pair to a single set of actions per round.
Restricting a pair of characters to a single set of actions is a horrible way to play two characters working together. No other ability that grants a second warm (or cold) body works that way, because it's exactly the opposite of what makes a second body a second body: independent actions.

[ShurikVch]

It would be highly unusual, but Windrider PrC (Masters of the Wild) allow to take almost anything as a mount - as long as would-be Mount is bigger than Windrider, willing to carry the rider, and have CR no higher than Windrider's character level minus 3 (or -4 - for flying Mounts)

[Adamantrue]

You know, a better way might be to compare the combination to a few of the other options, let people eyeball it. This is incomplete, but gives an idea.

LR-L & HR-D
LR-L
Modifications
Gain/Lose
Rider’s Shield Proficiency Proficiency/Medium Armor Proficiency & Heavy Armor
Improved Plating (+2 & +4)/Armor Mastery (medium & heavy)
Fighter Bonus Feats/Sneak Attack
Moderate Fortification/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Warforged Scout, Knight//Rogue 13
HD: 13d12 + (13 x Con modifier)
Skills Points: 16 x (8 + Int modifier)
Skill List: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope
Feats: 5 (level) + 10 (class) +1 (modification) = 16
Suggestions: Mounted Combat
Base Attack Bonus: +13/+8/+3
Fortitude/Reflex/Will: 4/+8/+8
Special
Bonus Fighter Feats: x7
Bonus Knight Feats: Mounted Combat, x2
Rogue Special Ability: x2
Knight’s Challenge: Knight’s Code, Fighting Challenge +3, Test of Mettle, Call to Battle, Daunting Challenge
Shield Block +2, Improved Plating +4
Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Shield Ally
Trapfinding, Trap Sense +4
Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Moderate Fortification
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, hand crossbow, light armor, all shields (except tower shields), and rider’s shield

HR-D
Modifications
Gain/Lose
4 skills & Thug list/Thug limits
Dungeoncrasher (2nd & 6th)/Fighter Feats (2nd & 6th)
Strength +2/Fighter Feat (4th)
Damage Reduction (adamantine)/Damage Reduction (cold iron)
Warforged Simian (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617368-3-5-Warforged-Simian-Shape), Fighter//Warlock 12
HD: 12d10 + (12 x Con modifier)
Skills Points: 15 x (4 + Int modifier)
Skill List: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Swim, and Use Magic Device
Feats: 5 (level) + 3 (class) = 8
Suggestions: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback
Base Attack Bonus: +12/+7/+2
Fortitude/Reflex/Will: +8/+4/+4
Special
Bonus Fighter Feats: x3
Eldritch Blast 6d6
Invocation (least, lesser, or greater)
Detect Magic, Deceive Item, Imbue Item
Damage Reduction 3/adamantine, Fiendish Resilience 1, Energy Resistance 5 (fire, electricity)
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, light armor
Invocations Known: 7

The Nightstalker
Gain/Lose
1 Cleric Domain/-
Pounce/Fast Movement
Bardic Knowledge/Trap Sense
Animal Companion (as Ranger)/Summon Familiar
View the Spirit World/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Half-Orc, Barbarian//Adept 15
HD: 15d12 + (15 x Con modifier)
Skills Points: 18 x (4 + Int modifier)
Skill List: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all, taken individually), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Survival, and Swim
Feats: 6 (level) = 6
Suggestions:
Base Attack Bonus: +15/+10/+5
Fortitude/Reflex/Will:+9/+5/+9
Special
Greater Rage 4/day, Indomitable Will
Pounce, View the Spirit World
Uncanny Dodge, Spell Sense +5, Damage Reduction 3/-
1 Domain
Animal Companion (Dire Bat), Illiteracy
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: All simple weapons and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields)
Spells per Day: 3/3/3/3/2

The Riddick
Modifications
Gain/Lose
Darkvision & Light Sensitivity (as orc)/-
Two-Weapon Defense & Improved Two-Weapon Defense (6th) & Greater Two-Weapon Defense (11th)/Heavy Armor Proficiency & Medium Armor Proficiency & Shield Proficiency
Two-Weapon Fighting & Two-Weapon Pounce (6th)/Armored Mage (medium) & Armored Mage (heavy shield)
Human, Soulknife//Duskblade 15
HD: 15d10 + (15 x Con modifier)
Skills Points: 18 x (4 + Int modifier)
Skill List: Autohypnosis, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (all, taken individually), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, and Tumble
Feats: 1 (Human) + 6 (level) + 5 (class) + 5 (modifications) = 17
Suggestions: Deadly Defense, Deep Impact, Nymph’s Kiss, Power Attack
Base Attack Bonus: +15/+10/+5
Fortitude/Reflex/Will: +9/+9/+9
Special
Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Greater Weapon Focus (mind blade), Speed of Thought, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Wild Talent
Mind Blade +3, Bladewind, Free Draw, Mind Blade Enhancement +3, Shape Mind Blade, Throw Mind Blade
Knife to the Soul, Psychic Strike +4d8
Arcane Attunement
Arcane Channeling (full attack), Quick Cast 3/day, Spell Power +3
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: All simple weapons and martial weapons, their own mind blades, and light armor
Spells per Day: 6/9/9/7/5
Spells Known: 2/5/4/4/3

[nedz]

I'd go with the cohort route.
If you make one 4 levels lower than the other then this would be so weak as to be almost flavour, so it has to be 2-3 levels lower.
For balance - give all of the characters such a cohort.

Actually the latter approach may work better by itself:
Make both of the characters level 15. This gives you 10 level 15 PCs.
Allow your 3-4 players to pick two characters each with the stipulation that choosing the warforged means that you have to take both.

[Vaern]

It doesn't say that at all. In fact, it goes out of its way to emphasize it is not equivalent to playing two characters at once.
It recommends using the variants for groups of three or fewer people as a way to allow a single character to encompass multiple key roles within the party. It's not equivalent to playing two characters, but the intention is to give your character all of the abilities of two characters to give them significantly greater versatility. Or, you know, just to buff all of your characters for a particularly high-powered campaign.


Restricting a pair of characters to a single set of actions is a horrible way to play two characters working together. No other ability that grants a second warm (or cold) body works that way, because it's exactly the opposite of what makes a second body a second body: independent actions.
The issue with this argument is that it's not an ability granting an extra body. It's literally just one player getting to play an extra character at no cost in regards to feats or class features. OP also stated that making his idea work will require treating the pair as a single character rather than two separate characters, and if they are to act as a single character then their action economy should reflect that.

[Adamantrue]

I'd go with the cohort route.
If you make one 4 levels lower than the other then this would be so weak as to be almost flavour, so it has to be 2-3 levels lower.
For balance - give all of the characters such a cohort.

Actually the latter approach may work better by itself:
Make both of the characters level 15. This gives you 10 level 15 PCs.
Allow your 3-4 players to pick two characters each with the stipulation that choosing the warforged means that you have to take both.

Slight tangent... In a few of my prior games, I created a situation where all the players would have 2 characters, the "main" and the "back-up", so they could continue playing if their character was killed without a delay, or bending over backwards to fit a new character in immediately.

Example would be a game based around a ship. All the various characters would be its crew, but only the "main" characters would go into town, or explore the island, etc. Sometimes people could switch things up and bring their back-up instead of their main, sometimes I created an event that switched perspectives to the boat instead of the adventure (sudden pirate raid, for example), and sometimes the big bad required all of the characters to participate. I can't recommend it enough, when the game presents the opportunity to do so.

Anyways...

Giving each character a cohort isn't a bad idea, in theory. For a few, it could actually work out pretty well, and would provide a sort of back-up character. Assume all main PCs were 15th (including the Knight//Rogue that prompted this), with a 13th level cohort.

Human Paladin//Marshal could have a lieutenant.
Minotaur//Crusader could have a first mate.
Dwarf Samurai//Swordsage could have a vassal.
Half-Orc Barbarian//Adept could have an apprentice.
Dwarf Monk//Ranger could have a pupil.
Killoren Hexblade//Ninja could have a companion fey.

There are two characters that, as imagined, this would be problematic for.

The Riddick, a Human Soulknife//Duskblade (Yeah, I know its cheesy. I use such names as placeholders)

As imagined, the Riddick was an orphan. Several of his fellow orphans lived at a temple, but were somehow "purchased" by a gnome arcanist. They were subjected to fleshcrafting experiments, many of which were dismembered and dissected, reassembled, and if they were lucky, killed. He managed to only have his eyes replaced before escaping with a fey spirit (which was also a lab rat). He has since taken up a quest for vengeance against all that were responsible, which puts him on the wrong side of the law for being a known murderer.

The Freak, a Daelkyr Half-Blood Divine Mind//Binder

Born and raised by occultists, this character was meant to be the living doorway between this world and the Far Realm. Realizing that fulfilling his purpose meant not only his death, but the consumption of his very essence, he has rebelled against his fate despite every fiber of his being drawing him back to it. Though a creature of an inherently dark nature, he attempts to purify his soul to forever seal that door, while prolonging his life and perhaps earning some sort of afterlife.

At the moment, I cannot imagine cohorts for these two. At least, not in the same way as the others.

[edit]

I could make the Symbiont of the Daelkyr Half-Blood its Cohort. Anyone want to eyeball a Level Adjustment on a Tentacle Whip? (I'm thinking LA +2 or +3)

[Adamantrue]

OK, here's the new plan. Each player can choose one of the following pairs.

LR-L: Warforged Scout Martial Rogue//Knight 15
HR-D: Warforged Simian (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617368-3-5-Warforged-Simian-Shape) Fighter//Warlock 12

Decommissioned war assets, reassigned to town guard. These two work as a mounted pair. LR-L is the one in charge, and is trying to find a place for them in the world. HR-D spends down time working as a weaponsmith and armorer, only knowing work and service.

Iron Will: Human Paladin//Marshal 15
Beatrice “Trixie”: Human Swashbuckler//Warblade 13

Iron Will is a retired war hero, continuing to serve in peacetime as captain of the town guard. Trixie is a young, mischievous rogue that supervises crime, circumventing anything too serious away from town to keep it safe in her own way. Think Odo and Quark, from DS9.

Raptor of the Ridge: Dwarf Monk//Ranger 15
Jade Oni: Dwarf Samurai//Swordsage 13

The Monk is in charge of a small temple in town. The Jade Oni has been honorably discharged from service by his lord, and is spending time at the temple meditating, and contemplating his future. The two have a very amicable relationship, often debating philosophy.

Northman Beserker: Minotaur//Barbarian 13
Northman Defender: Minotaur//Crusader 11

The Northmen patrol the waters near town, watching for signs of the return of the Giants. Though the bulk of their time is at sea, they regularly dwell in the Northman Hall in town, and are quite familiar with the townsfolk. These two minotaurs are almost always together.

The Riddick: Human Soulknife//Duskblade 15
Victoria: Astral Deva//Healer 9

Both of them were subjected to horrific fleshcrafter experiments during Riddick’s childhood, and only escaped through cooperation. Victoria was significantly weakened, and couldn’t survive without Channeling with Riddick. They seek justice, but Riddick is considered a criminal.

The Nock: Killoren Ninja//Hexblade 15
Glo: Grig Expert//Beguiler 10

Local faeries that claim the town and surrounding area as their territory. They are considered local legends, known for gifting favors, causing mischief, and harsh retribution when angered. They consider the town and its people as their property, akin to toys or pets.

The only real problem with this is that it can get quite unwieldy, with so many pieces on the board. Might have to limit the number of Players to 3 (6 characters).