Vampire Lord in a longer running group, with the Intent for it to be permanent.

[GrayDeath]

To elaborate on the slightly weird title:

A friend and also DM and I talked about his ongoing campaign.

About 2 years ago, one of the players had to elave, and they specified it as his character (a harbinger, fittingly) to have been attacked and turned by the then Main Antagonist, a very powerful, if only slightly Evil, Vampire Lord.

Now fast forward 2 years and around 75 InGame Years, the group has been in stasis for (dont ask, I dont do such plots, but he likes them^^).

The palyer moved back slightly before all the Corona ****, and wants to rejoin the group.

he is however extremely attached to his old Character and the guy is (and has been for at least 75 years) a Vampire.

Now we were talking about letting him join the group, but could not find common ground regarding the actually necessary LA.

The group is by now roughly 5 levels (he doesnt do group levelups, so the actual distance would be: 2 6 levels, 1 5 Levels, 2 4 levels) ahead, and while not particularly optimized, overall quite stron (2 Clerics (both neutral), a Druid, a Wizard and a Paladin of Tyranny Sorcadin (overall the group is neutral tending evil in methods but good in intentions, inc ase it matters).

So there was no questiona bout applying the Vampires idioticly high LA. my Suggestion was maybe to go with the CR adjustments for both Vampire and Vampire Lord, which would put his LA at 5, nicely fitting in.

My friend did however put in a few points regarding the truly high Power of the Vampire Lords at Will stuff that has me thinking.

As this is an Optimzier Forum, I ask you:

Assuming his player does not optimize further than "Harbinger 8/Vampire Lord", will it be problematic to run him in the abovementioned group?
Ifg so, why? And what solutions would you suggest?

If not, great (and why, cause I need to calm the DM`s nerves^^):

As always, thank you all for your time and effort!

[Red Fel]

To elaborate on the slightly weird title:

A friend and also DM and I talked about his ongoing campaign.

About 2 years ago, one of the players had to elave, and they specified it as his character (a harbinger, fittingly) to have been attacked and turned by the then Main Antagonist, a very powerful, if only slightly Evil, Vampire Lord.

Character left campaign and you gave him a great send-off. Cool.


Now fast forward 2 years and around 75 InGame Years, the group has been in stasis for (dont ask, I dont do such plots, but he likes them^^).

The palyer moved back slightly before all the Corona ****, and wants to rejoin the group.

Player wants to come back to the game. Also cool.


he is however extremely attached to his old Character and the guy is (and has been for at least 75 years) a Vampire.

Player wants to bring back his old character. Fair.


Now we were talking about letting him join the group, but could not find common ground regarding the actually necessary LA.

The group is by now roughly 5 levels (he doesnt do group levelups, so the actual distance would be: 2 6 levels, 1 5 Levels, 2 4 levels) ahead, and while not particularly optimized, overall quite stron (2 Clerics (both neutral), a Druid, a Wizard and a Paladin of Tyranny Sorcadin (overall the group is neutral tending evil in methods but good in intentions, inc ase it matters).

So there was no questiona bout applying the Vampires idioticly high LA. my Suggestion was maybe to go with the CR adjustments for both Vampire and Vampire Lord, which would put his LA at 5, nicely fitting in.

My friend did however put in a few points regarding the truly high Power of the Vampire Lords at Will stuff that has me thinking.

As this is an Optimzier Forum, I ask you:

Assuming his player does not optimize further than "Harbinger 8/Vampire Lord", will it be problematic to run him in the abovementioned group?
Ifg so, why? And what solutions would you suggest?

If not, great (and why, cause I need to calm the DM`s nerves^^):

As always, thank you all for your time and effort!

Okay. Here's the thing. If he was attached to the character, then he was attached to the character before it got written off and turned into an NPC. The solution, then, is to give the PCs a quest to kill this NPC-thing with their friend's face and use True Resurrection to bring back the character as a non-Vampire. That is an awesome storyline and a great way to reintroduce their old friend. Bonus, because he has been around (albeit as a Vampire) while they've been in "stasis," he'll be a valuable source of information as to what has changed in the world. I would do it this way.

Unless, of course, what you're saying is that this player is attached to his old character in its new form as a Vampire Lord.

Which is, needless to say, some horse pucky. He did not play the character as a Vampire Lord. He did not get to know the character as an evil blood-sucking monstrosity of inconceivable power. He just wants a free power-up.

Now, you telling me the relative power levels of the party is pointless. I need specifics, and you don't offer them. Because here's the thing: a Vampire is powerful. A Vampire Lord is unbelievably powerful. Thankfully, one of the requirements is that the Vampire live for at least a century (so, aside, if your guy has only been vamping for 75 years, he's not there yet,) but still, it's a lot.

The Vampire Lord template basically takes the Vampire, gets rid of most of its weaknesses, and dramatically boosts most of its strengths. Telling me that two party members are 6 levels ahead, one is 5, and two are 4, doesn't mean anything - for example, if those levels are ahead of, say, level 5, that means you have a party of two 11s, one 10, two 9s, and a freaking Vampire Lord. He has a host of at-will abilities and various immunities, and they don't even have flight. At this level, he is a one-man party and they're just the accompaniment.

So, no. Absent more information, I would not say that letting him be a Vampire Lord by fudging the numbers would be fair or balanced. A Vampire Lord fits, if at all, in a high-power party where the fact that he can only be killed with a blessed silver stake or similarly extreme methods does not equate to functional immortality. If he is attached to his original character, give the PCs a quest to defeat him and resurrect his original character. Give him a few extra character levels for the intervening years if you like. But being attached to his original character does not give him a route to claiming "you need to give me my original character, but with free powerups."

Not unless the rest of the party is already in the high level range.

[GrayDeath]

If you had read more closely, you would have seen that the Player was a Harbinger 8 when he left and stated that the group is between 4 and 6 levels ahead.
Doing the math aint that hard. :)
I did however not specify which class was at which level, mea culpa.

As of right now the group has 2 Clerics, one at Level 13, one at 14, a Druid at level 12, and Paladin of Tyranny at 14 as well.

Now I understand that exact, precise calculations of "how does it fit" require more Info about the group than I can provide, but honestly, that has never stopped this site before, has it?
Maybe next time, in such a case, just ASK if something is unclear, instead of assuming things?
Given that you normally seem to have great amounts of insight in these things (and the above post seems to have much effort invested), I must say that this answer did dissappoint me a bit, given that as soon as I read you ahd answered, I was looking forward to...I dont know, a more helpful post?..:(




However, to make it as perfectly as clear as I can:

He is attached to his old CHaracter, but that Character was a typical harbinger, and so would be totally A.OK with being turned into a Vampire.
Not so much with having to SERVE one, but he was firmly on the direction to Sasuke Emoness, so he might argue "ah well, I`ll get rid of the guy some time in the future...
Now is he fixated on coming back as a VL? I dont know, he hasnt talked to ME about it. But simply assuming stuff like that does a person you dont know anything but that they play emos about a disservice, wouldn`t youa gree?


The group, again as stated above, is not tererribly optimized if using Giantitp Standards, but ahs chosen onle things that make sense, and after all is in the high 6, low 7 Level of Spells, ignoring the Paladin.

They have good Items, are slightly above WBL, and after coming out of stasis (seems we`ll either have to houserule Vampires Ascencion or add another 25 years, as it seems my buddy didnt read the Vampire Lord closely enough)they will likely first use what they can to find out when they are and what happened, which is likely the point ewhere the Old Character will make his new Entry appearance.




Assuming his player does not optimize further than "Harbinger 8/Vampire Lord", will it be problematic to run him in the abovementioned group?
Ifg so, why? And what solutions would you suggest?

If not, great (and why, cause I need to calm the DM`s nerves^^):

[satorian]

You'll also have to waive the requirement that Vampire Lords need to have 10 character levels before qualifying. Note, though, that that requirement is a hint to you as to how powerful vampire lords are.

The best way to think about this is at what level would a base vampire lord stop wiping the floor with the rest of your party, if you fought one even fully loaded for bear. Considering its character levels, its host of at will powers, its huge saves and AC, its special attacks, its... well, everything, I can't imagine that would be lower than level 15 or 16. So the total LA should reflect that, and be 7 or 8, at minimum.

[Crake]

Thankfully, one of the requirements is that the Vampire live for at least a century (so, aside, if your guy has only been vamping for 75 years, he's not there yet,) but still, it's a lot.

Another requirement which permanently and utterly precludes the character from being a vampire lord, is that the vampire in question seeking ascension to lordship status can't have been turned by a vampire lord themselves:


A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator.

Thus, the character can never become a vampire lord themselves.

[GrayDeath]

The entry says that Vampire lord do not create Spawn. Not that they CANT.

Also, please dont start the threat towards arguing if X is at all possible, or not.

That is not what I am asking, I am asking for tips and ideas regarding integrating him in the group, and potential Problems with doing so.

The actual DM has ruled that his character is at the very least a free Vampire, and so far it seems a Vampire Lord (though Ic an udnerstand the general trend in this thread to try and make him reconsider, I would do the same, but I am not the DM, just your friendly neighborhood Giant itp user ^^).

I would really appreciate staying on Topic.




The best way to think about this is at what level would a base vampire lord stop wiping the floor with the rest of your party, if you fought one even fully loaded for bear. Considering its character levels, its host of at will powers, its huge saves and AC, its special attacks, its... well, everything, I can't imagine that would be lower than level 15 or 16. So the total LA should reflect that, and be 7 or 8, at minimum.



Now thats what I am looking for, thank you!

The aprty, as posted above, contains 2 clerics, so a fight to determine when its OK to enter him is not quite fair, as they have advantages vs Undead.
Also the level is between 12 and 14, so my first guess, which was he would fit in IF he has a weaker class than the rest but only once people start hitting 7ths, seems to be more or less what you are saying as well.

His stat boosts and extremely resilient way of unlife ARE powerful, but given that 3 players play fullc asters (the druid is a very classic "Wildshape into big thing, buff for bear, go to town, one of the Clerics is using DMM: poersist (but not excessively), the other is a more flexible one (Travel and Luck, with a feat combo that lets him add some Domain switchign shennanigans iirc).
Now granted, being the Paladin of Tyranny in that setup will Suck, big time.
But that Characters player has always been Fluff over everything and has recently got his hands on a truly amazing Sword (we are using slightly modified Legacy Weapon rules that allow a lesser version of the Ancestral Relic ability, if only to add new Enchantments and only once per 4 Character LEvels), so thats that.


LA of 7 would put him at an effective 15, ergo one ahead of the higher levelled ones, but given the RIver of XP would be doable, what do you think?
I was, independant of the result of this thread, going to suggest to balance the group level to the highest levelled Character anyway (I for one let the Characters levela t the same time to avoid suc things)....

[Quertus]

Also, please dont start the threat towards arguing if X is at all possible, or not.

That is not what I am asking, I am asking for tips and ideas regarding integrating him in the group, and potential Problems with doing so.

In a roundabout way, that's *exactly* what people are doing: they are warning you of the *potential problem* of adding in an element which does not conform to the Rules. How will your group react to that, *especially* if this character turns out to be OP?

To remedy *part* of that, fast time plane shenanigans can have the Vampire be 100+ while the party has spent 75 years in stasis.

Fixing the rest would likely require homebrew or hand wave.

-----

You've already got "not everyone is the same level", and "not everyone is the same optimization level".

My suggestion is, wait a few sessions. Take some actual empirical data, and use that to determine what his LA should *actually* be, and retroactively give him his XP for those sessions based on that.

[GrayDeath]

In a roundabout way, that's *exactly* what people are doing: they are warning you of the *potential problem* of adding in an element which does not conform to the Rules. How will your group react to that, *especially* if this character turns out to be OP?

To remedy *part* of that, fast time plane shenanigans can have the Vampire be 100+ while the party has spent 75 years in stasis.

Fixing the rest would likely require homebrew or hand wave.

-----

You've already got "not everyone is the same level", and "not everyone is the same optimization level".

My suggestion is, wait a few sessions. Take some actual empirical data, and use that to determine what his LA should *actually* be, and retroactively give him his XP for those sessions based on that.

Waiting a few sessions and collecting Data isnt really easy or in the cards though, is it?
As that would only work if we, you know, actually let him do it as suggested.

And later taking back such decisions is never an easy thing.
Though I value your feedback.

However:

While I am not the DM, as stated for the third time now, I am aware of the potential problems and asked about specific suggestions, experience and such.

That I wasnt asking IF that could be trouble should have been pretty obvious, and I posted enough Info for people to make educated guesses.

But if the overall tenor is just "dont do it" isntead of actual problem solving (or even CLEAR problem stating) responses, we`ll se what the actual DM and the player to be Vamped have to say about that...sigh...

[Crake]

The entry says that Vampire lord do not create Spawn. Not that they CANT.

Also, please dont start the threat towards arguing if X is at all possible, or not.

That is not what I am asking, I am asking for tips and ideas regarding integrating him in the group, and potential Problems with doing so.

The actual DM has ruled that his character is at the very least a free Vampire, and so far it seems a Vampire Lord (though Ic an udnerstand the general trend in this thread to try and make him reconsider, I would do the same, but I am not the DM, just your friendly neighborhood Giant itp user ^^).

I would really appreciate staying on Topic.



Now thats what I am looking for, thank you!

The aprty, as posted above, contains 2 clerics, so a fight to determine when its OK to enter him is not quite fair, as they have advantages vs Undead.
Also the level is between 12 and 14, so my first guess, which was he would fit in IF he has a weaker class than the rest but only once people start hitting 7ths, seems to be more or less what you are saying as well.

His stat boosts and extremely resilient way of unlife ARE powerful, but given that 3 players play fullc asters (the druid is a very classic "Wildshape into big thing, buff for bear, go to town, one of the Clerics is using DMM: poersist (but not excessively), the other is a more flexible one (Travel and Luck, with a feat combo that lets him add some Domain switchign shennanigans iirc).
Now granted, being the Paladin of Tyranny in that setup will Suck, big time.
But that Characters player has always been Fluff over everything and has recently got his hands on a truly amazing Sword (we are using slightly modified Legacy Weapon rules that allow a lesser version of the Ancestral Relic ability, if only to add new Enchantments and only once per 4 Character LEvels), so thats that.


LA of 7 would put him at an effective 15, ergo one ahead of the higher levelled ones, but given the RIver of XP would be doable, what do you think?
I was, independant of the result of this thread, going to suggest to balance the group level to the highest levelled Character anyway (I for one let the Characters levela t the same time to avoid suc things)....

I mean, the intention of vampire lord was actually to provide a boost to players playing actual vampires, because they actually acknowledged that an LA 8 character in the late game was miles behind.

The idea is that it's meant to retain the LA8 of a vampire, but gain the benefits of a vampire lord to keep up with the rest of the party, but since the abilities are super powerful, the limiting factor of having 10HD/levels was introduced, so that the minimum ECL of a vampire lord is 18.

[Efrate]

Lords of Night has rules for vampire characters, might want to look into that. It also has a new discipline for your harbinger. It's by DSP so you already using some of their content.

I would go vampire from there which I think is +1 or +2, then make the PC an actual lord with a keep etc. Its not the greatest solution but it's a solution.

[PanosIs]

So, taking into account the LA provided by Vampire & Vampire Lord, it ends up being around the +10 to +12 range (As Lord doens't have a specific LA assigned but only CR). Obviously, LA +10 is always too much unless you're getting extra actions out of it, but lets go over the full benefits:


Perfect Fly 50ft.
Natural Armor +12
Abilities Str +12, Dex +8, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +8
Skills +8 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot
DR 10/Silver, Good and +3
Resistance Cold 10 Electricity 10
Fast Healing 8
Turn Resistance +8
Charisma Bonus on all Saving Throws
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes

Special Attacks and Qualities:
Blood Drain: 1d4+2 Constitution damage when pinning an enemy
Energy Drain: 3 Negative levels on successful touch attack
Telepathy: Out to 100 feet, or to any controlled vampire under 1 mile
Create Spawn: Vampires created are fully controlled
Children of the Night: Summon 3d6 Wolves or 1d4+1 Bat Swarms, serve permanently until dismissed
Wild Shape: As 12th level Druid, at will, move action

Spell-emulating abilities (All at will - DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier):
Control Weather (7th), Dominate (5th, Special), Spider Climb (2nd), Gaseous Form (3rd), Telekinesis (5th)

I would separate these abilities in three categories: Defensive boosts, minions and offensive abilities.

As far as defenses go, you're looking at immunity to Fortitude save effects because of undeath, an increase of +10 to Reflex and +8 to Will in addition to any existing Charisma bonus which now applies to saves. On the AC side, it's +16 AC between NA and Dexterity increases. On top of that, DR 10/Silver and +3 is going to be pretty hard to pierce unless enemies equip specifically to fight this character. Fast Healing 8, minor resistances and turn resistance +8 are not majorly relevant. At will Wild Shape and Gaseous Form means the character always has a means of escape.

On minionmancy, we've got Leadership, at will Dominate Person, created spawns and any number of low CR creatures from Children of the Night in order of power. Leadership will be pretty crap (Wow, I never thought I'd say this), given the low level of the character, but at will Dominate even with a mediocre DC is going to be problematic, since it lasts for 12 days and has unlimited range since its voice based. The character can walk into any given village or guard post and acquire minions - they can then turn them into vampires with create spawn. Endless servants via creatures of the night is also something to consider plot-wise, especially since the swarms are going to be hard to deal with.

On offensive abilities, the only one that stick out to me is at will Control Weather, which can really change how the campaign works and Energy Drain (3 negative levels is a lot) especially if the character invests in any of the energy drain feats. Relatively minor compared to the previous points though.

The counter side to all this of course, is that the vampire lord is going to have a measly amount of hit points. Around 60 hit points at level 8.

My assesment is that this doesn't bode well for the campaign. The vampire lord is going to be extremely hard to hurt, especially in middle-optimization, what with high AC, undead immunities, high Reflex and Will - having a good chance to fail for this character would mean the rest of the party fails pretty much automatically. Similarly with the high AC. This much of a defense imbalance between the party makes building encounters a pain. At the same time, the character's low hit points and the fact that they automatically die at 0 HP means it's gonna be easy for a well-placed ray or other no-save effect to take them down with very few ways for them to return - so there is a fair amount of risk involved here to balance things out, as a DM I find this somewhat problematic as well as it makes things unpredictable, but you'll have to make your own judgdement here. Of course, the vampire will regenerate in its coffin, but that's usually a major inconvenience.

Offensively, the character isn't going to be doing much compared to 14th level full casters to be honest, energy drain is good but it only applies to a slam attack which can be used once per round and has to hit (Not a certainty). At will Control Weather can be devastating when used creatively and telekinesis isn't bad, although the DC is going to be mediocre.

The main issue that I see with running with such a character is the number of minions they can accrue. We're talking about a 7th level cohort from leadership, any number of dominated creatures and/or vampire slaves plus any number of wolves or bat swarms. The vampire lord really gains a lot of minion-based abilities and is very much designed as a leader villain more so than one with brute power. A lot of the power of the template lies in these abilities - which are extremely difficult to adjudicate for a player character as they'll be playing not just with leadership (Already broken) but with at will dominate and spawns as well - while the other players are just playing one character each. I would never let a player character play something like this unless the entire party was on board with playing this kind of game. Of course it's possible, but even then I'd look to cede control of some of the minions to the other players, or allow them to gather followers as well.

I can't stretch the last point enough - don't allow all the minions unless the full group is into this style of play!

As for actual alternatives - why not use the simple Vampire template but reduce the LA somehow? Especially assuming the player wont go around turning entire villages, I'd be pretty alright with allowing a Vampire template at around +4 to +5 LA, as the +8 default is relatively obscene - there is still room for dominate abuse, but if that alone was a big issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[PanosIs]

I mean, the intention of vampire lord was actually to provide a boost to players playing actual vampires, because they actually acknowledged that an LA 8 character in the late game was miles behind.

The idea is that it's meant to retain the LA8 of a vampire, but gain the benefits of a vampire lord to keep up with the rest of the party, but since the abilities are super powerful, the limiting factor of having 10HD/levels was introduced, so that the minimum ECL of a vampire lord is 18.

I dont see any indication supporting this claim, or that the Vampire Lord is meant for player characters at all. For one, the template doesn't have an LA and has a CR +3 entry. Rules as written, the template cannot be used on a player character.

I'd consider a Vampire Lord making full use of their abilities to be at least LA +10 for a player character (Including the original vampire LA).

[GrayDeath]

Some very good points, thanks Panosis.

Sadly, its fricking alt over here, and I should be asleep...only 6 hours left till I need to get to work, yay for home office?

I`ll give it an in depth read tomorrow.

[Ruethgar]

All of the LA of a Vampire can be bought off cheesily by using the template class. The article calls the levels out as LA and they are also class levels so something like X1/Bloodline 1/Vampire 1 buyoff Bloodline 2/Vampire 1 buyoff X2/Vampire 1 buyoff and repeat could technically work. You would be eating the Vampire Lord LA though, but I would consider that more than fair.

Also, mentioned Bloodlines because it would lessen the XP penalty since buyoff is based on ECL but still counts all levels for qualification. If your DM does the most RAW reasonable adjustment of Bloodlines and makes them spend XP like making a magic item, it would still work out pretty well and a Major Vampire Bloodline would be rather apt imo.

[Crake]

I dont see any indication supporting this claim, or that the Vampire Lord is meant for player characters at all. For one, the template doesn't have an LA and has a CR +3 entry. Rules as written, the template cannot be used on a player character.

I'd consider a Vampire Lord making full use of their abilities to be at least LA +10 for a player character (Including the original vampire LA).

I believe it was a forum post by the author on the old wizards forums, or possibly an article he wrote, (if it was the forums though, its probably lost forever now), but that's what his intentions were for the template, hence why it lacks any LA entry, it's meant to have the same +8LA as a vampire, but be restricted to ECL18+

[Quertus]

Waiting a few sessions and collecting Data isnt really easy or in the cards though, is it?
As that would only work if we, you know, actually let him do it as suggested.

And later taking back such decisions is never an easy thing.
Though I value your feedback.

However:

While I am not the DM, as stated for the third time now, I am aware of the potential problems and asked about specific suggestions, experience and such.

You said that your GM was onboard with the concept; thus, I didn't feel that "if" was even a consideration. You are not, as you constantly keep reminding us, the GM.

I think that the correct way to assign a LA to this PC is post hoc. This will also serve as a balancing factor ("XP is a river"), balancing things out in the end.

To give my cliff notes / interpretation of Panosis excellent post, the vampire will involve potentially a different *style* of play. Possessing almost no offensive capabilities and few HP (plus being vulnerable to effects like turning), they will likely rely heavily on Minionmancy, at which they… somewhat excel. With their immunities, they will occasionally "win button" encounters that the party might otherwise struggle with ("the button is at the bottom of a pool of poison? No problem!").

With the player being much more into the RP side, I don't think that getting the *power* wrong will be much of an issue - give it LA 1 or LA 10, and maybe - but I think your big concern will be how differently it plays, how differently it approaches challenges. If that's a concern.

That, and my parties, at least, the Clerics would trivially obliterate him.

[Efrate]

Are you doing pathfinder, 3.5 or some amalgamation? Harbringer is PF 3rd party, but you mention persist spell which is 3.5, and makes a harbinger focused on certain discipline insane effectively giving as much persist as your cleric can to the entire party.

Looking through lords of night their vampire is +1 CR, and fixes all your issues. In PF undead automatically get cha to hp a well. The template also give only +2 str and +2 to any one mental stat, you chose one power from a list that kind of mimics a 3.5 vamp, and one weakness. You are exhausted in sunlight ignoring any and all immunity but not destroyed, and get +2 bluff and diplo only. You need to feed regularly and you alignment on the good evil axis goes towards evil one step.

Have him 1 level behind the party as that vampire and gift him a keep (for the lord part) and some contacts and such. Then it plays perfectly provided he stays out of sunlight and feeds regularly.

[Ruethgar]

Of course you could also go with an improved vampire that’s not technically a Vampire Lord like a Tainted Sorcerer or a level or two of the BoVD class, life drinker I think? Or some other thematic levels.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, now I get what you mean Quertus, and..thats actually a very good idea.

Lets see if I can convince the other 2 invilved of it, should save us all huge amlunts of work. :)

@ SysteM we are using almost complete 3.p, in a way that unless it is specifically out (like old 3.5 Polimorph for example, or other Direct changes) its used.

[GrayDeath]

Update:

Quertus, your suggestionw as pure Gold.

We played twice since then, and agreed on what parts of being a Vamp Lord he will keep and what parts can go (he does not intend to be the main CC guy, or create others, so Control Weather at Will and Create Spawn are out, as is turning into mist (hes a stickler for Wolf and BAt Form to the last^^) and we met in the middle with the Stat boosts, so that he isnt the guy with the highest stat in ALL he has (merely Charisma and Dex)., we all enjoy our "unkillable" Trap Detector though....even the palye enjoys palying the Depressed undying guy who permanently gets his shirt blown off^^

So once more, The Forum did not dissappoint!

[Quertus]

Quertus, your suggestionw as pure Gold.

we all enjoy our "unkillable" Trap Detector though....even the palye enjoys palying the Depressed undying guy who permanently gets his shirt blown off^^

So once more, The Forum did not dissappoint!

Well, thank you :smallredface:; I'm glad that everyone is having fun, with cool imagery to boot! :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, though, I think Panosis almost certainly deserves more credit than I, since I've done little more in this thread than sum up their absolutely excellent post.

[GrayDeath]

Agreed, Panosis, a big thank you to you as well!

These are the days I know why I frequent this forum so much. ^^