Tasha's Custom Lineage and starting stat 18

[gnollgnoll]

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is to be released soon and I'd like to talk about Custom Lineage race option. It allows you to get +2 to one stat and to pick up a feat. This opens some opportunities to max your most important stat at level 4 if you pick a feat that allows a +1 to the very stat you are maxing out. What cool class/feat combos would you suggest?

[Gignere]

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is to be released soon and I'd like to talk about Custom Lineage race option. It allows you to get +2 to one stat and to pick up a feat. This opens some opportunities to max your most important stat at level 4 if you pick a feat that allows a +1 to the very stat you are maxing out. What cool class/feat combos would you suggest?

HAM for 18 str
EA for 18 int, chr, dex or wiz
Observant 18 wis

Just a few

[RogueJK]

I foresee a lot of casters taking Fey Touched or Shadow Touched for+3 to their spellcasting stat and two additional spells known, plus a couple free castings daily. (We'll also probably see a lot of casters with +2 to their spellcasting stat plus Resilient CON.)

Similarly, a number of Hexblades, Finesse Melee, and Ranged characters taking Elven Accuracy for +3 CHA/DEX.

And it could potentially make some of the less popular racial half-feats perhaps a bit more attractive. Stuff like Squat Nimbleness on a Monk for 18 DEX, or Flames of Phlegethos on a Warlock or Sorcerer for 18 CHA.

Or how about this: A Dragonborn Sorcerer, trading out the standard +2 STR, their breath weapon, and resistance to one element in exchange for a Custom Lineage with the Dragon Hide feat for +3 CHA and +3 Natural Armor, plus taking the Darkvision option too. I'd say that's a net Win, for sure. (Mainly because Dragonborn's standard racial traits are rather lackluster...)

[gnollgnoll]

(We'll also probably see a lot of casters with +2 to their spellcasting stat plus Resilient CON.)

Not quite. Without any racial bumps, max starting spellcasting ability is a humble +2. Most casters won't forgo their spell attack bonus and save DC just for some CON

[Gtdead]

I don't really know how custom lineage works nor I am aware of the new half feats if they exist, but assuming that all you get is a +2 to a stat and a feat, for some classes it will be a horrible choice.

Strength offensive builds will have to pick useless feats like HAM to get the +3. Strength defensive builds will be a bit better.
Intelligence casters will have to pick EA or Observant/Keen Mind. EA is not good for wizards.
Wisdom casters will against have to pick EA or Observant. EA is not good for Clerics or Druids

Observant isn't as good as Resilient: CON, Alert or Lucky. The whole point is to be more effective in combat. Wasting feats isn't a good way to do it. However it's not a terrible feat so there is some potential. I don't like it though.

Dexterity archers will have to pick EA or some other half feat. What they want is SS/CE so this isn't a very good option.

Rogues: now we are getting somewhere. Rogues benefit from EA more than they do from other offense feats, so starting with 18 DEX is a good choice.
Warlocks: Yes, this will work, they benefit a lot from EA and Charisma is a great social stat.
Sorcerer: Worse than warlock, but not terrible for some builds, Still I don't like it very much. The good thing is that he already has CON proficiency so he has some leeway.

[x3n0n]

I don't really know how custom lineage works nor I am aware of the new half feats if they exist, but assuming that all you get is a +2 to a stat and a feat, for some classes it will be a horrible choice.

We know about the custom lineage. It's basically v.human except:
You can choose between Small and Medium
You can choose between the skill or darkvision
You get +2 instead of +1/+1.

We don't have final text for most of the feats yet, but these ones are known to be in and provided a half-ASI in the UA:
Fey touched and shadow touched: int/wis/cha
Telepathic/Telekinetic: int/wis/cha
Crusher/slasher/piercer: str/dex
Gunner: dex
Skill expert (presumably Practiced Expert): any
Chef: con/wis

[shipiaozi]

Casters benefits little from caster ability, even Eldritch Build or Bard don't need to max caster ability early, totally not worth the loss of con.

Str 18 is attractive, but hard to imagine anything could be compare to PAW or GWM

Dex is the strongest ability, pick EA looks like a powerful choice for monk and rogue.

[Gtdead]

We know about the custom lineage. It's basically v.human except:
You can choose between Small and Medium
You can choose between the skill or darkvision
You get +2 instead of +1/+1.

That's nice. I guess the darkvision makes it even more desirable deal for rogues. I can see it working very well.



We don't have final text for any of the feats yet, but these ones are known to be in and provided a half-ASI in the UA:
Fey touched and shadow touched: int/wis/cha
Crusher/slasher/piercer: str/dex
Gunner: dex
Skill expert (presumably Practiced Expert): any
Chef: con/wis

Thanks for the info.

[sundernaught]

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is to be released soon and I'd like to talk about Custom Lineage race option. It allows you to get +2 to one stat and to pick up a feat. This opens some opportunities to max your most important stat at level 4 if you pick a feat that allows a +1 to the very stat you are maxing out. What cool class/feat combos would you suggest?I apologize if this sounds dumb but how do you know this system? The book does not come out until the 17th

[Gtdead]

I apologize if this sounds dumb but how do you know this system? The book does not come out until the 17th

Information has been leaked. If you google "tasha's leak" you will easily find the reddit thread.

[sundernaught]

Information has been leaked. If you google "tasha's leak" you will easily find the reddit thread.Thank you! I will just wait at this point but I appreciate the information :^)

[x3n0n]

Thanks for the info.

No problem. I missed telepathic/telekinetic: int/wis/cha.
Editing above.

[RogueJK]

Not quite. Without any racial bumps, max starting spellcasting ability is a humble +2. Most casters won't forgo their spell attack bonus and save DC just for some CON

But they're already able to get a racial bump to their spellcasting stat from the custom +2, putting them at 17 (or 16 if you buy a 14 and use the remaining points elsewhere), which is a not-so-humble +3.

Taking the +2 bump to your spellcasting plus Resilient CON is much more well-rounded, and better able to maintain Concentration (which is even more important when you have fewer spells per day), compared to just focusing on "How high can I get my primary stat at Level 1?".

You're taking Resilient CON for the Proficiency, not so much the extra +1 to CON, although that's handy for evening out an odd CON. Proficiency in CON saving throws is very helpful for maintaining Concentration. Most casters end up taking either Resilient CON or Warcaster at some point anyway... It's practically a "feat tax" for non-Sorcerer primary casters, since something to help your Concentration checks is basically a necessity at higher levels. Might as well get it out of the way right off the bat, and be able to reap the benefits from Level 1, while still getting a 17 in your spellcasting stat from the get-go.

An extra +3 bonus on your Concentration checks (and a few extra HP from the new even CON score) would be more useful in many cases at Levels 1-3 than starting with an 18 instead of 17 in your spellcasting stat. The game is balanced around casters having a 16ish in their spellcasting stat in Tier 1 anyway. You just don't really need an 18 or 20 in Tier 1.

[Amechra]

Strength offensive builds will have to pick useless feats like HAM to get the +3. Strength defensive builds will be a bit better.

Let's see, a list of all of the feats that can boost Strength:


Athlete
Dragon Fear
Dragon Hide
Heavily Armored
Heavy Armor Master
Lightly Armored
Moderately Armored
Orcish Fury
Squat Nimbleness
Tavern Brawler
Weapon Master


Off that list... I could see an "offensive" build grabbing Athlete (for the increased mobility), Squat Nimbleness (+5ft speed and a skill proficiency), or Tavern Brawler (better unarmed strikes, better improvised weapons, and a BA grapple). Orcish Fury is also pretty cool, but without Relentless Endurance you'd basically just have a 1/short rest mini smite.

[RogueJK]

Any STR-based melee build wanting to start with an 18 STR will likely choose one of the new Crusher/Slasher/Piercer half feats. They are better options than any of the existing STR half feats, other than Heavy Armor Master in a strictly low level campaign.

[Willie the Duck]

Not quite. Without any racial bumps, max starting spellcasting ability is a humble +2. Most casters won't forgo their spell attack bonus and save DC just for some CON

Okay, serious, casters in groups in which you play do not pick up resilient:con?


But they're already able to get a racial bump to their spellcasting stat from the custom +2, putting them at 17 (or 16 if you buy a 14 and use the remaining points elsewhere), which is a not-so-humble +3.
True. Although, within the context of the thread, starting with a +3 to casting stat and resilient:con isn't a new opportunity. Variant Humans have been able to do it since day one.
That said, I can see a custom half-elf background going for +2 CastStat, reslient:con, EA, and +2 Stat for 20 by level 4, which is new. I certainly can see the pros and cons of starting with the EA-fed 18 and the resilient. There are plenty of important low-level concentration spells that you would want to keep going, even more than the +1 DC/spell attack value. A front line dex-based elven cleric, for instance, might really really want that Bless or Shield of Faith to stay up.


You're taking Resilient CON for the Proficiency, not so much the extra +1 to CON, although that's handy for evening out an odd CON. Proficiency in CON saving throws is very helpful for maintaining Concentration. Most casters end up taking either Resilient CON or Warcaster at some point anyway... It's practically a "feat tax" for non-Sorcerer primary casters, since something to help your Concentration checks is basically a necessity at higher levels. Might as well get it out of the way right off the bat, and be able to reap the benefits from Level 1, while still getting a 17 in your spellcasting stat from the get-go.

I don't know about feat tax, but it is certainly part of the 'iconic build.' Casters max out casting stat, get resilient:con, and then warcaster is like the fighter who picks up PAM/GWM/Sentinel or XBE/SS -- there are plenty of builds which choose to do something completely different, but they are definitely the obvious go-tos.

[Gignere]

Any STR-based melee build wanting to start with an 18 STR will likely choose one of the new Crusher/Slasher/Piercer half feats. They are better options than any of the existing STR half feats, other than Heavy Armor Master in a strictly low level campaign.

Not sure why there is this low level qualifier for HAM, even against an Ancient Black Dragon it’s still taking off 15-20% off the average damage from multiattack.

Find me another feat that can mitigate that much damage at any levels.

A lot of monsters scales with having more attacks not necessarily bigger and more dice on a single attack. Some monsters do that but many more just gets a lot more attacks.

[RogueJK]

It has more to do with HAM only apply to non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning. At low level you're primarily taking non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage. At higher levels, you're more likely to be taking damage from magical attacks, spells, and magic weapons, so the benefit is lessened.

[RogueJK]

I don't know about feat tax, but it is certainly part of the 'iconic build.'

Not just iconic, but almost a necessity.

There are a few classes that get other ways to boost their Concentration, like Bladesinger/Transmutation/Conjuration Wizards or Paladins. And being a Sorcerer or starting with a level of Fighter is an alternative to get CON proficiency. But otherwise, primary spellcasters really do need one or the other feat (not necessarily both) in order to reliably maintain Concentration at higher levels. (Barring something like playing a straight blaster caster who only casts damage spells and doesn't really utilize their Concentration for anything important, which isn't ideal.)

I've played one higher level caster without some way to boost Concentration, purely relying on the mere +1 or +2 from my CON bonus, and instantly regretted it as I was frequently failing Concentration and wasting higher level spells.

[Willie the Duck]

Not just iconic, but almost a necessity.
I will tentatively agree, so long as the 'almost' is included. There are other ways to play a spellcaster including 1) not relying on concentration spells, and 2) relying on not being targeted in the first place. It is much like the fighter who doesn't pick up one of the power combos -- you have a serious deficit in off the shelf capability, and one hopes whatever you picked up instead makes up for it.


I've played one higher level caster without some way to boost Concentration, purely relying on the mere +1 or +2 from my CON bonus, and instantly regretted it as I was frequently failing Concentration and wasting spells.
Honestly, by 'high level' (cue arguments on when that is, I am sure) this should be addressed (so more strongly agree). If this were more mid-tier levels, it seems more reasonable for such a situation to arise -- the fighter that has picked up ritual caster or Inspiring Leader instead of PAM/GWM/Sentinel, the bard who grabbed Moderately Armored and maxed Charisma, anyone who set up a build with Magic Initiate. By the upper tiers, you really should have an ASI available to take one or the other.

[Sception]

I'm not sure 'custom lineage' race will qualify for racial feats like elven accuracy or dragon fear. Do the leaks include any explicit statement in that regard?

Otherwise, rogues and dex fighters work well with that kind of hyper focus on a stat. Other classes are more arguable, as casters need some con and melee character need con plus either strength or dex for AC and nobody likes taking a penalty to perception & wisdom saves or initiative & dex saves.

warlocks can do it, particularly blaster locks who can hang back from melee, preferably shrouded in the safety of darkness. Though starting 18 for charisma specifically isn't new. Changelings have been able to do it since the current eberron book came out.

Overall it's a nice option to have, though I'm not convinced that it's stronger overall than typical variant humans, who can use their racial bonuses to push two separate stats up to 16 while taking a stronger, non-half-feat like great weapon master, sharp shooter, or sentinel.

[x3n0n]

I'm not sure 'custom lineage' race will qualify for racial feats like elven accuracy or dragon fear. Do the leaks include any explicit statement in that regard?

I have not seen any explicit text quotes, just statements from people who have seen the leak.


Overall it's a nice option to have, though I'm not convinced that it's stronger overall than typical variant humans, who can use their racial bonuses to push two separate stats up to 16 while taking a stronger, non-half-feat like great weapon master, sharp shooter, or sentinel.

Mostly agreed. I think this opens up a "new" acceptable way to make a MAD build. Pre-Tasha, the "norm" for (say) a v.Human Monk with a non-ASI feat might be
8/16/14/10/16/8 (move the 10 around wherever you want)

If you had a *pair* of desirable half-feats on the same stat, you might do
8/17/14/10/16/8
and then take the second half-feat to get to Dex 18.

Trading in the +1/+1 for +2 opens up taking a Dex half-feat for something like
8/18/14/10/14/10
or even
8/18/14/10/15/8
and planning to a Wis half-feat at 4.

(I'm picking on Monk because it's particularly sensitive to having a large combined value for Dex/Wis modifiers at level 1.)

I think the bigger difference is the huge pile of usable half-ASI feats: assuming that all of the UA half-feats that made it into Tasha's remain half-feats, that's a bunch, plus opening up the Xanathar's feats gives you a bunch more.

[Gignere]

It has more to do with HAM only apply to non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning. At low level you're primarily taking non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage. At higher levels, you're more likely to be taking damage from magical attacks, spells, and magic weapons, so the benefit is lessened.

Even if only half the damage at high levels comes from multiattack HAM is still a fantastic feat. I think if you went through the MM a lot of high CR creatures actually does not inflict magic BPS at all.

Now if this was a high level humanoid campaign I would agree that it would not be any good.

I mean the example I used was an iconic high level CR BBEG, even for an Ancient Dragon a significant amount of the damage would be mitigated.

[rlc]

We know about the custom lineage. It's basically v.human except:
You can choose between Small and Medium
You can choose between the skill or darkvision
You get +2 instead of +1/+1.

We don't have final text for most of the feats yet, but these ones are known to be in and provided a half-ASI in the UA:
Fey touched and shadow touched: int/wis/cha
Telepathic/Telekinetic: int/wis/cha
Crusher/slasher/piercer: str/dex
Gunner: dex
Skill expert (presumably Practiced Expert): any
Chef: con/wis
Are there any benefits to choosing small?

[Hael]

Not just iconic, but almost a necessity.

There are a few classes that get other ways to boost their Concentration, like Bladesinger/Transmutation/Conjuration Wizards or Paladins. .

In Tashas, according to the leaks Warlocks get a new invocation that grants them advantage on con saves to concentration.

[RogueJK]

Are there any benefits to choosing small?

You can move through Large enemy squares. (Enemies have to be 2+ sizes larger than you.)
You can more easily find things to hide in/behind (for both Hide and Cover).
You can fit through smaller spaces.
You weigh less, which might occasionally be a determining factor in combination with certain spells or environmental situations.
You can ride Medium mounts, which can fit in smaller areas. (It's tough to bring a Large mount into some dungeons and caves.)

[gnollgnoll]

It has more to do with HAM only apply to non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning. At low level you're primarily taking non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage. At higher levels, you're more likely to be taking damage from magical attacks, spells, and magic weapons, so the benefit is lessened.
Surprisingly, not many creatures have magical attacks.
The ones you'll encounter most likely are yugoloths, abishai, golems and onis. Others are sphinxes, gray/death slaadi, elemental myrmidons, pit fiends, mariliths, nabassus, balors and demon lords.

[gnollgnoll]

(I'm picking on Monk because it's particularly sensitive to having a large combined value for Dex/Wis modifiers at level 1.)

Monk will benefit most from another of Tasha's customization rules: swapping racial ability score improvements and armor and weapon proficiencies for tool profs. Mountain dwarf monk might get 8/17/14/10/17/8 for +1/+1 Dex and Wis at 4th level and above that seven tool proficiencies

[x3n0n]

Monk will benefit most from another of Tasha's customization rules: swapping racial ability score improvements and armor and weapon proficiencies for tool profs. Mountain dwarf monk might get 8/17/14/10/17/8 for +1/+1 Dex and Wis at 4th level and above that seven tool proficiencies

Yes, Mountain Dwarf is unique, offering an otherwise-impossible progression.

At lv1, custom/v.human is probably ahead: feat vs 2 odd scores.
At lv4, custom is 18/16 with a feat, m.dwarf is 18/18 (unique).

From there, the question is whether the dwarf races to 20/20 at lv12. If they trade one of those ASIs for a feat, they're back at feat/ASI parity, with a bunch of tool/weapon proficiencies and -5 walk speed.

I am not sure that the decision is obvious in either direction.

[Bilbron]

You can move through Large enemy squares. (Enemies have to be 2+ sizes larger than you.)
You can more easily find things to hide in/behind (for both Hide and Cover).
You can fit through smaller spaces.
You weigh less, which might occasionally be a determining factor in combination with certain spells or environmental situations.
You can ride Medium mounts, which can fit in smaller areas. (It's tough to bring a Large mount into some dungeons and caves.)

I would add that being Small and 80 lbs. or less unlocks Reduce in general (Tiny creature has some advantages in particular Stealth or environment scenarios) and specifically the Reduce/Mage Hand combo. Also the "ally in backpack" strategy if you're willing to get that cheesy.

Downsides are the 25' move, and that you can't Dimension Door with M allies (though I keep a Potion of Growth on hand if I actually ever need to do that, which my familiar will apply on the same turn that I need to cast DD).


I foresee a lot of casters taking Fey Touched or Shadow Touched for+3 to their spellcasting stat and two additional spells known, plus a couple free castings daily.
Fey Touched is such a good feat. +1 ASI obviously speaks for itself, but the bonus Misty Step and (probably) Gift of Alacrity are must haves on any spell prep list so getting them for free opens up 2 valuable preps (or makes them available at all if you're not a wizard). Strongly considering this one at next level up (Metamagic Initiate, Spell Sniper for Magic Stone, Mounted Combatant, and Eldritch Initiate being the main contenders, as I already have Alert/Observant).

[Rara1212]

I would add that being Small and 80 lbs. or less unlocks Reduce in general (Tiny creature has some advantages in particular Stealth or environment scenarios) and specifically the Reduce/Mage Hand combo. Also the "ally in backpack" strategy if you're willing to get that cheesy.

Downsides are the 25' move, and that you can't Dimension Door with M allies (though I keep a Potion of Growth on hand if I actually ever need to do that, which my familiar will apply on the same turn that I need to cast DD).


Fey Touched is such a good feat. +1 ASI obviously speaks for itself, but the bonus Misty Step and (probably) Gift of Alacrity are must haves on any spell prep list so getting them for free opens up 2 valuable preps (or makes them available at all if you're not a wizard). Strongly considering this one at next level up (Metamagic Initiate, Spell Sniper for Magic Stone, Mounted Combatant, and Eldritch Initiate being the main contenders, as I already have Alert/Observant).

Don't you get 30ft movement for both Medium & Small?

[gnollgnoll]

Don't you get 30ft movement for both Medium & Small?

True, you don't get speed reduction from being Small with Custom Lineage, just like kobolds and goblins