Spell slots for levels 21-30?

[Greywander]

Not that I think it's necessary, but I'm trying to hammer out a bit of homebrew for "epic levels", 21 to 30, and I'm not sure what to do with spell slots. Some ideas I have include:

Extrapolate the existing progression so that you end up with 13th level slots, and at least two slots for 11th and lower levels by 30th level. You don't learn any 10th or higher level spells, but you can upcast your existing spells, or use these as extra 9th level slots.
Grant more slots for lower levels, likely giving two extra 1st level slots at 21st level, and by 29th level you have two 9th level slots. Not sure what 30th would give you.
Grant an alternative spellcasting resource, such as spell points.
Give at-will casting/infinite spell slots for lower levels (possibly just 1st and 2nd level), along with more spell slots for mid and higher levels.
Start over from the beginning of the spellcaster progression, doubling up. E.g. a 25th level caster would have the slots of a 20th level caster plus the slots of a 5th level caster.
Variations on any of the above. For example, you might get up to 13th level slots, but instead of getting a second slot for 8th to 11th level, you'd get more lower level slots instead.

Mostly, I just want to have a "if you decide to use this, here's how you'd do it". It's not something I plan on using myself, though another possible application might be with gestalt characters, allowing you to benefit from up to 30 caster levels. Again, I don't think you really need this, I just want to figure out how you'd do it if you decided you wanted to do it anyway. My intuition says "less is more". Even without any extra slots, stacking two caster classes already gives you plenty of great stuff, nor should players feel obligated to stack another 10 caster levels on top of the 20 they already have in order to "optimize".

[Zhorn]

IFF I were to go down that rabbit hole, I'm leaning more towards using Spell Points (DMG p289 for those following along at home).
The patterns of advancement would still take a bit of head scratching to figure out, but a pattern for consistent advancement would probably be easier to find there as opposed to spell slots.

[Rusvul]

I would give players additional castings of lower-level slots, though I'm not sure in exactly what progression pattern I'd use. First and second level spells at-will seems reasonable for epic-level characters, too.

I'd restrict all "epic magic" to level 10 spell slots, with unique (and uniquely complex to use) spells, like how it worked in 3.5's Epic Level Handbook. Levels 1-9 are all the good combat/daily use spells, and level 10 spells are the really big ones that let you change the world in a major way: create a new plane, ward a huge area against divination and teleportation, make new life, destroy a city. That kind of thing. Nothing straightforward to use, they should all require significant preparation to utilize properly.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Personally I'd say it really depends on what you are trying to achieve by this.

If you are trying to get your casters to be demigods (more so anyway.)

A new spell level every 4 levels so 21/25/29 for 10/11/12 respectively.
An additional spell slot for 1-5th level every 3rd level 23/26/29
An additional 6-8th at 25
And finally an extra 9th at 29.


Alternatively I personally would likely increase the current stuff we've got so


Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


21

5
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
1


22
5
4
4
4
3
2
2
1
1


23
6
5
4
4
4
3
2
1
1


24
6
5
5
5
4
3
3
1

1


25
7
6
5
5
4
3
3
1
1


26
7
6
6
6
5
3
3
2
1


27
8
7
6
6
5
4
3
2
1


28
8
7
7
7
5
4
3
2
1


29
8
7
7
7
6
4
4
2
2


30
8
7
7
7
6
4
4
2
2

[Greywander]

I do like the idea of giving a bunch of extra low level slots. It's something that's nice to have without giving a big increase to power. At-will 1st and 2nd level spells is a neat idea, although I feel like it greatly diminishes the value of things like Spell Mastery or certain warlock invocations.

A couple other ideas:

Instead of getting more spell slots, you get to recover a limited number of spell slots on a short rest, sort of like Arcane Recovery but using your "extended caster level", e.g. a 27th level caster is a "7th level extended caster". Maybe another way to put it is that you recover spell slots whose combined level is equal to your caster level - 20, and must be of 5th level or lower.

Another idea, if we want to minimize the impact, is to give only one or two extra spell slots that start as 1st level slots then migrate to higher levels. So at 21st level, you'd get one extra 1st level slot, but instead of getting more slots that one extra slot would just move up to higher levels. Later you might get a second extra slot that would also migrate up. So you might end up with one extra 5th level slot and one extra 8th level slot, for example.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

One of the core principles of the game is that you don't get many slots of 6th level and higher. You've only got one of each until 19th-20th level, when you get a second 6th and then a second 7th level slot. I think this is only because the normal progression would be a new spell level at 19th, same as every previous odd-numbered level, so they had to make it more worthwhile to not multiclass out for one or two levels on every build. I would absolutely not increase the number of 6th+ level spell slots, or if so make it extremely few and far between, because those are special.

I'll agree that just increasing the number of 1st-5th level spells is the way to go. I would make it one more spell slot per level gained, starting at 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th, and then 5th, then start over at 1st again:



Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


21
5
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1


22
5
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
1


23
5
4
4
3
3
2
2
1
1


24
5
4
4
4
3
2
2
1
1


25
5
4
4
4
4
2
2
1
1


26
6
4
4
4
4
2
2
1
1


27
6
5
4
4
4
2
2
1
1


28
6
5
5
4
4
2
2
1
1


29
6
5
5
5
4
2
2
1
1


30
6
5
5
5
5
2
2
1
1



Alternatively, make it count 1-5, then grant one more of 6th+ in the lowest level that's tied for lowest number per day. So 21-25 would be another 1st-5th level slot, 26 would be an 8th level slot, 27-31 would be 1st-5th again, 32 would be a 9th level slot, 33-37 are 1st-5th again, 38 is another 6th level slot, etc.


Edit: Also, in keeping with the bounded accuracy, I wouldn't make proficiency bonus or even hp/hd continue increasing after 20th. In 2nd edition you'd only roll for hit points for the first ~11 levels iirc, then get a fairly low set number of hp per level after. Make a d10 class get +2 per level, and a d6 class get +1 per level. A d12 would alternate between +2 and +3, so it's +5 every two levels, and a d8 would alternate between +1 and +2 to be +3 every two levels.

[Rusvul]

One of the core principles of the game is that you don't get many slots of 6th level and higher. You've only got one of each until 19th-20th level, when you get a second 6th and then a second 7th level slot. I think this is only because the normal progression would be a new spell level at 19th, same as every previous odd-numbered level, so they had to make it more worthwhile to not multiclass out for one or two levels on every build. I would absolutely not increase the number of 6th+ level spell slots, or if so make it extremely few and far between, because those are special.


You're absolutely right about how the game is supposed to work... but if we're extending things past 20th level--at which point a lot of core principles already don't apply--I think hanging the system's expectations for what a character ought to be able to do from the neck until dead is appropriate. That's subjective, though, and largely informed by my experience with 3.5, its Epic Level rules, and the correspondingly absurd rocket-tag Calvinball; I could see someone coming from 4e's Epic Destinies (which, to my understanding, maintain system expectations to a much greater degree) preferring a more measured set of rules.

But. C'mon. At levels 21+ you're probably fighting gods and primordial beings; I think some extra 7th and 8th level spells are totally fine.

EDIT: after seeing your edit about proficiency bonus (ninja'd), I think we're thinking about 21+ in different terms. It's always seemed to me like the kind of aforementioned absurdly-high-power god-fighting kind of shenannigans, rather than the continuing adventures of very powerful--but distinctly moral--people. Both good approaches, I think, and it comes down entirely to taste :)

[Greywander]

Edit: Also, in keeping with the bounded accuracy, I wouldn't make proficiency bonus or even hp/hd continue increasing after 20th. In 2nd edition you'd only roll for hit points for the first ~11 levels iirc, then get a fairly low set number of hp per level after. Make a d10 class get +2 per level, and a d6 class get +1 per level. A d12 would alternate between +2 and +3, so it's +5 every two levels, and a d8 would alternate between +1 and +2 to be +3 every two levels.
To clarify, I have one set of rules for taking extra class levels past 20 (by spending an epic boon), but where your character level doesn't increase (meaning no prof. bonus or HP increase). You're still a 20th level character, even though you have more than 20 class levels.

I thought it might not be a bad idea to include a different set of rules for raising your character level past 20; 30 is a bit arbitrary, but it seemed like a decent stopping point (especially considering printed monsters only seem to go up to CR 30, and certain spells treat CR = level, e.g. Polymorph). As a bonus, the spell slot progression used for "epic levels" can also be used in any other context (such as a gestalt, or using the above rule to spend epic boons for class levels) where you can get more than 20 class levels. Typically, I would just cap your caster level at 20, but I also acknowledge that not everyone might want to do that, and having options is nice.

So, as far as spell slot progression, the intent is to use it for advancing your character level up to 30, including things like prof. bonus and HP increases. It would be an optional/variant rule when used with other rules that allow more than 20 class levels but cap your character level at 20.

[Littlemike137]

Not that I think it's necessary, but I'm trying to hammer out a bit of homebrew for "epic levels", 21 to 30, and I'm not sure what to do with spell slots. Some ideas I have include:
[LIST]
Extrapolate the existing progression so that you end up with 13th level slots, and at least two slots for 11th and lower levels by 30th level. You don't learn any 10th or higher level spells, but you can upcast your existing spells, or use these as extra 9th level slots.
*snip*


The problem I could see with this is that, as far as current lore goes, 12th level spells are kinda nuts, and 13th would be even more insane. The only 12th level spell in the lore would have made the caster take the place of a greater god (only problem was he picked the god of magic and so screwed himself and everyone) so unless you rewrite the lore or nerf the spells pretty heavily, the shenanigans are going to get even more insane than simply having level 30 pcs very very very fast.

[rlc]

Martials get an extra attack (maybe two for fighters)?
Ability score caps go up to 24 (30 for strength and constitution on barbarians)?
Rogues get more sneak attack dice
Half casters get a 6th level slot (but probably only devotion can use it for smites)


The problem I could see with this is that, as far as current lore goes, 12th level spells are kinda nuts, and 13th would be even more insane. The only 12th level spell in the lore would have made the caster take the place of a greater god (only problem was he picked the god of magic and so screwed himself and everyone) so unless you rewrite the lore or nerf the spells pretty heavily, the shenanigans are going to get even more insane than simply having level 30 pcs very very very fast.
OP specifically said you don’t learn anything above 9th level. You just have the slots.

[Sigreid]

For epic levels I'm thinking that I will keep the spell slot cap, but allow people to start working up another class or buy other subclass abilities one by one. I think I'll cap the HD at 20 as well, but allow you to replace your hit points with a higher die if you level up in a profession with one.

I'm currently thinking that strikes a nice balance between clearly still growing and not becoming unmanageable.

[Unoriginal]

Not that I think it's necessary, but I'm trying to hammer out a bit of homebrew for "epic levels", 21 to 30, and I'm not sure what to do with spell slots. Some ideas I have include:

Extrapolate the existing progression so that you end up with 13th level slots, and at least two slots for 11th and lower levels by 30th level. You don't learn any 10th or higher level spells, but you can upcast your existing spells, or use these as extra 9th level slots.
Grant more slots for lower levels, likely giving two extra 1st level slots at 21st level, and by 29th level you have two 9th level slots. Not sure what 30th would give you.
Grant an alternative spellcasting resource, such as spell points.
Give at-will casting/infinite spell slots for lower levels (possibly just 1st and 2nd level), along with more spell slots for mid and higher levels.
Start over from the beginning of the spellcaster progression, doubling up. E.g. a 25th level caster would have the slots of a 20th level caster plus the slots of a 5th level caster.
Variations on any of the above. For example, you might get up to 13th level slots, but instead of getting a second slot for 8th to 11th level, you'd get more lower level slots instead.

Mostly, I just want to have a "if you decide to use this, here's how you'd do it". It's not something I plan on using myself, though another possible application might be with gestalt characters, allowing you to benefit from up to 30 caster levels. Again, I don't think you really need this, I just want to figure out how you'd do it if you decided you wanted to do it anyway. My intuition says "less is more". Even without any extra slots, stacking two caster classes already gives you plenty of great stuff, nor should players feel obligated to stack another 10 caster levels on top of the 20 they already have in order to "optimize".

My solution:

You don't get any spell slot for progressing a class past lvl 20. It's possible to get Boons that either give you additional spell slots or let you cast a leveled spell at will, but is not based on level progression.

[sundernaught]

It sounds like an interesting idea but would you not have to make a system to level up after 20 to even get this started? I thought you could only progress with epic boons as awarded by the DM

[Unoriginal]

It sounds like an interesting idea but would you not have to make a system to level up after 20 to even get this started? I thought you could only progress with epic boons as awarded by the DM

That's how it goes in the books, yeah. I think it works, personally.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not that I think it's necessary, but I'm trying to hammer out a bit of homebrew for "epic levels", 21 to 30, and I'm not sure what to do with spell slots. Here's my recommendation.
1. Use Epic Boons instead. That's why they exist. But if you are bound and determined to overmagic the game ...

a. Treat one additional spell as a Mystic Arcanum, per warlock, per level. Spell must be chosen from the class class list.

b. For your martial characters, offer them a spell for each level from 21-30.
Your are trying to go well outside of the box already, and play at that level tends to be magicky nutty.

Take a look at the spells for EK, AT and have the non spell casting martials get on per level. At 21 and 22, first level spell from either lists. At 23 and 24, a second level one. And so on.