Dragon Cohort questions

[Melcar]

Questions about Dragon Cohort incoming:

Are dragons chosen through the Dragon Cohort feat normally made with elite or standard array? AFAIK dragon cohort allows a normal/ standard dragon, which is made with standard array...

So, what should I do, when my DM has said that cohorts uses elite array? What I mean is, how do I change the normal dragon's standard array into elite array? What is the process of doing so?


Thanks in advance!

[JNAProductions]

Questions about Dragon Cohort incoming:

Are dragons chosen through the Dragon Cohort feat normally made with elite or standard array? AFAIK dragon cohort allows a normal/ standard dragon, which is made with standard array...

So, what should I do, when my DM has said that cohorts uses elite array? What I mean is, how do I change the normal dragon's standard array into elite array? What is the process of doing so?


Thanks in advance!

Standard Array is 11 11 11 10 10 10.
Elite Array is 15 14 13 12 10 8.

So, all you gotta do is increase one stat by 4, one by 3, two by 2, keep one the same, and drop one by 2.

[GrayDeath]

^ That.

And every GM I used a Dragon Cohort in a Game ruled it was AT LEST Elite Array.

In the one game I elt a player have one, he could take Elite array or roll 6 times 4d6, take 3, but in that case had to take the values rolled, no reroll, no taking back, eetc.

After all, its a special Dragon (and you pay enough with their LA and such already), that you trained.^^

[Melcar]

Thank you for your answers...

Incidentally, why does a dragon not receive the normal bonuses and penalties when increasing in size? I can't seem to find any rules that explain this... Like, why does a red dragon wyrmling not gain +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, etc. when increasing to large size?

Thanks!

[GrayDeath]

Because the bonuses are all already included in the age category advancements, together with a few Dragon HD.

Dragons are special Snowflakes,a fter all. ^^

[Xervous]

Thank you for your answers...

Incidentally, why does a dragon not receive the normal bonuses and penalties when increasing in size? I can't seem to find any rules that explain this... Like, why does a red dragon wyrmling not gain +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, etc. when increasing to large size?

Thanks!

The size changing rules are a general case last resort suggestion short of homebrew for when you are changing creatures sizes. Dragons have explicit rules for their sizes:ages so you don’t need to default to the general.

However if you wanted a great wyrm Red that is unusually small... I’d think about applying the size rules on top of that.

[Melcar]

Because the bonuses are all already included in the age category advancements, together with a few Dragon HD.


Dragons have explicit rules for their sizes:ages so you don’t need to default to the general.

Where can I read the rules governing what bonuses they accrue, during age category increase?

To be precise, I want to know exactly what happens when my dragon cohort advances enough HD, to gain a size... because according to the MM, they should receive both bonuses and penalties due to size... but from reading their entry they do not... so where would I be able to find information on what happens when a dragon increase in age?

Thanks!

[GrayDeath]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Here you go.

Just choose your dragon at Age X and advance via the tables to Age Y. Done.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Standard Array is 11 11 11 10 10 10.
Elite Array is 15 14 13 12 10 8.

So, all you gotta do is increase one stat by 4, one by 3, two by 2, keep one the same, and drop one by 2.
Fun fact: official rules tell you to apply +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2, resulting in 15/14/13/12/11/8. MM page 290. I mean, it makes sense that it's all even modifiers (odd modifiers are messy), but surely someone must've noticed that it doesn't add up?

[lylsyly]

Fun fact: official rules tell you to apply +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2, resulting in 15/14/13/12/11/8. MM page 290. I mean, it makes sense that it's all even modifiers (odd modifiers are messy), but surely someone must've noticed that it doesn't add up?

You mean the known to be sloppy editors at WotC? :smallbiggrin:

[Melcar]

The size changing rules are a general case last resort suggestion short of homebrew for when you are changing creatures sizes. Dragons have explicit rules for their sizes:ages so you don’t need to default to the general.

However if you wanted a great wyrm Red that is unusually small... I’d think about applying the size rules on top of that.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Here you go.

Just choose your dragon at Age X and advance via the tables to Age Y. Done.

Ok, so no rules or patterns which explain the process of adding stats? I would have assumed so, but I can't find it, at this thread would indicate that there are none...


Also, what would be some good items to give it? I have 59.000 gp to equipt it for!

Thanks!

[GrayDeath]

There are both Rules (if implied only) and observable Patterns (if not constant between different Dragons, but since they are, you know, Different^^) on the linked site.
Why would there be any more rules needed than "At HD X add Value Y to abilities"?

As for explanations and Fluff, see Draconomicon for that. adly not SRD material. But its a great Book, if you can still get it.


For a Dragon Cohort I would always go for a way to get Invisibility, as otehrwise them scouting is a bit....obvious.

Other than that, boosts to AC and stats work as well for thema s for anyone else, they dont need (or can use unless its one with a human shape) weapons, that saves some money.


In case it helps: My most recent Characters Dragon Cohort, a young adult Blue Dragon, has:
Ring of greater Invisibility, Ring of Immunity to Fire, Amulet of Protection from Chaos and Elemental Resistance (Cold, Sonic) 10, "Bracers" of Strength +4 and +3 magical to his unarmed attacks, and a saddle (ergo cape) of saves +3.
I`m at Level 18 though, and the Dragon ahs not gotten new stuff for 3 levels, as we didnt have the time, so there is a larger budget unused atm.^^

[One Step Two]

Ok, so no rules or patterns which explain the process of adding stats? I would have assumed so, but I can't find it, at this thread would indicate that there are none...


Also, what would be some good items to give it? I have 59.000 gp to equipt it for!

Thanks!

The Draconomicon is also pretty sparse on the exact ruling of how dragon advance, I did a spreadsheet that you might find useful though.

CategoryAge (Years)
Wyrmling0-51HD per 2 years (2, 4, 6 >)
Very young6-151HD per 3 years, 4 months (9.4, 12.8, 16>)
Young16-251HD per 3 years, 4 months (19.4, 22.8, 26>)
Juvenile26-501HD per 8 years, 4 months (34.4, 42.4, 51>)
Young adult51-1001HD per 16 years, 8 months (67.8, 84.4, 101>)
Adult101-2001HD per 33 Years, 4 months (134.4, 167.8, 201>)
Mature adult201-4001HD per 66 Years, 8 months (267.8, 334.4, 401>)
Old401-6001HD per 66 Years, 8 months (467.8, 534.4, 601>)
Very old601-8001HD per 66 Years, 8 months (667.8, 734.4, 801>)
Ancient801-1,0001HD per 66 Years, 8 months (867.8, 934.4, 1001>)
Wyrm1,001-1,2001HD per 66 Years, 8 months (1067.8, 1134.4, 1201>)
Great wyrm1,201 or more1HD per 66 Years, 8 months (1267.8, 1334.4, 1401...)

As the Dragon it gains HD it gains Skill points, HP and saves, and once it gains 3HD total from it's starting age, it gains a new age category. Each age category has it's own benefits as listed in it's monster manual entry, though it's stat increases will need to be eyeballed based on the dragon of your choice. For example, a red dragon wyrmling has: +6 Str, +4 Con. When it grows to be very young, it now has: +10 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha instead.

[Remuko]

Keep in mind that a dragon cannot increase in size from Exp, only from Age. If they gain levels they can raise their Racial HD by 2, but they can't gain that last HD and size/age category increase until they reach the right age, so it may have to take class levels in the interim.

[Melcar]

Keep in mind that a dragon cannot increase in size from Exp, only from Age. If they gain levels they can raise their Racial HD by 2, but they can't gain that last HD and size/age category increase until they reach the right age, so it may have to take class levels in the interim.

Wow... so we have a few decades ingame before my dragon becomes huge...

[Xervous]

Wow... so we have a few decades ingame before my dragon becomes huge...

Welcome to the dragon perspective. Dragon:human lifespans are a similar order of magnitude as human:average goldfish.

[Melcar]

Keep in mind that a dragon cannot increase in size from Exp, only from Age. If they gain levels they can raise their Racial HD by 2, but they can't gain that last HD and size/age category increase until they reach the right age, so it may have to take class levels in the interim.

So, in terms on class levels, what would be some good choices?



Welcome to the dragon perspective. Dragon:human lifespans are a similar order of magnitude as human:average goldfish.

Indeed, its just not something I've had coming up in games before, so it kind of surprised me...

[One Step Two]

So, in terms on class levels, what would be some good choices?

Off the top of my head I suggest that if you have, or can get a copy of Dragons of Eberron, you should look at sovereign archetypes which basically give Dragons some class flavours, like Druid, Ranger, Fighter etc. Using that as their base, you can then have them take class levels that have synergies with those archetypes.

Otherwise Sorcerer levels explicitly stack with their racial spellcasting, and they qualify for any Prestige class that requires the Dragonblood Subtype I believe.

[GrayDeath]

Well, you could just pay a Wizard to put him/her into an accelerated plane for 1 Month (and 50 years on the inside), though they might find that really boring ^^

As for Class, if you want to maximize Synergies with an actually ridden Cohort, I sufggest Initiator levels.

otherwise stacking Sorcerer Levels is a no brainer regarding the combiantion of fluff and Power achieved.

[Efrate]

I personally like a pseudodragon taking levels of DFA. Cause it's a real dragon dang it.

Warlock or totemist work well, dragons have a lot of natural attacks, add more. Warlock gives invisibility and other things and can leverage charisma better with certain invocations. Most ToB classes are fine as well and there are archtypes for that in the eberron books.

What do you want out of your dragon? Great chasis can go nearly any route and be effective so pick what you want. Sorcerer might be the best off hand, but depending on dragon type you get cleric access as well which opens more options.

[lylsyly]

I personally like a pseudodragon taking levels of DFA. Cause it's a real dragon dang it.

THIS! Not to mention DFA is a decent class ;-)

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, in terms on class levels, what would be some good choices?
I personally like gishing on a dragon, but since their racial casting tends to drop a lot of caster levels, that may not work too well. Warblade is always good, though!

[Melcar]

A quick followup questioin

How much gold would a Very Young (ECL 15) red dragon have as per WPL having 10HD? I'm have become uncertain what it procs of?

[rrwoods]

Fun fact: official rules tell you to apply +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2, resulting in 15/14/13/12/11/8. MM page 290. I mean, it makes sense that it's all even modifiers (odd modifiers are messy), but surely someone must've noticed that it doesn't add up?

Note that, strictly speaking, you need to do the 4/3/2 on odd scores, and the 2/0/-2 on even ones.

Alternatively, do this: Subtract 11 from the three odd scores, and subtract 10 from the three even scores. This gives you the dragon's racial modifiers to each score. Then, assign 15/14/13/12/10/8 as you choose across the scores, and apply those racial modifiers you found after the fact.

This process is a little more involved, but it lets you completely and correctly reassign the scores, instead of being restricted to the odd scores for your big assignments.

[Biggus]

Fun fact: official rules tell you to apply +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2, resulting in 15/14/13/12/11/8. MM page 290. I mean, it makes sense that it's all even modifiers (odd modifiers are messy), but surely someone must've noticed that it doesn't add up?

I'm guessing they didn't bother because unless you happen to be on exactly the number required to qualify for a feat, it almost never matters. It's always bugged me that odd number stats do basically nothing, if it weren't so fundamentally built into the system it would have been one of the first things I houseruled.


Welcome to the dragon perspective. Dragon:human lifespans are a similar order of magnitude as human:average goldfish.

More like human to mouse actually...

[Anthrowhale]

A classic for a dragon is Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5. The AC capstone ability typically kicks a dragon's caster level up enormously and AC is an excellent gish class enhancing a Dragon's natural role.