Switching from 3.5. Most fun and versatile “Gish” type?

[Hiro Quester]

I am about to start playing in my first D&D 5.0 (using D&D Beyond) game after playing in 3.5 campaigns for the last decade. (Unfortunately due to political disagreements; DM has said I’m no longer welcome, so I’m joining another friend’s game in a month or so when they start a new campaign.)

I usually love playing characters with lots of fun versatile options, often buffing and BFC, with melee options. Melee SFWD bard, kung-fu tiger wild shaping gnome druid with monk dip, dwarven ordained champion cleric, fearcaster-illusionist gnome bard/dread witch (my first non-melee character).

I love being primarily a buffer/debuffer, BFC caster, but with good melee options, too. And maybe some social skills.

I have always wanted to play a swiftblade. That would have been my next character if I kept playing 3.5.

What are good options for doing this kind of thing in 5.0?

Is bladesinger as good as it sounds (for BFC buffer wizard, who can melee as well)?

Perhaps something like a swiftblade (haste-addict casting twinned haste as a bonus action) is possible with a multiclass combination of favored soul sorcerer and eldritch knight or arcane trickster?

A valor bard also seems somewhat promising, nabbing haste as a magical secrets spell.

Is some kind of front-line BFC battle-cleric possible, without getting stuck in the heal-bot role?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I’m just a day into my research, and feeling a bit lost and overwhelmed by options I don’t yet fully understand.

Any advice on builds or options that can guide my research would be appreciated, please and thank you.

[KorvinStarmast]

What do you mean by gish?

The 5e paladin is a nice mix of combat and spells. The gotcha alignment game is over; Oath of Vengeance in particular is a fine melee fighter and as you get paladin spells you can get various buffs and such.

The Eldritch Knight has a slower spell progression. Starts Fighter, adds some spells.

The Warlock Pact of the Blade, and the Hex Blade, fit a kind of spell caster/warrior combo platter.

Bard, Valor, is fine. Also, Bard is a full caster.

I love being primarily a buffer/debuffer, BFC caster, but with good melee options, too. And maybe some social skills.

I think this might fit what you need.

IF this will be your first foray into D&D 5e, be warned: Throw Away All Of Your Assumptions from 3.5e. Ignore it. Treat 5e as a new game.

Some of the game terms are similar but they mean different things.

[Xervous]

Take your understanding of 3.5e mechanical complexity up to level 6/8 or so and stretch that across 20 levels with some of the utility functions vaguely staying put.

Concentration dictates there is one effect to rule them all, you only generally get one ongoing effect be it buff or BFC at a time.

Combat more generally skews towards hp attrition.

Don’t expect there to be rules for everything or for exceptional competency being something you can attain on a character. 5e skews towards monkeys on typewriters if the GM lets everyone roll, so even being allowed to flip your coin on a given task is explicitly up to the GM.

[paladinn]

One of the coolest or most annoying aspects of 5e (depending on whom you ask) is that Every class has at least one spellcasting subclass. I personally am not a fan; but there are a lot of gish possibilities to choose from.

Eldritch Knight (fighter) and Arcane Trickster (rogue) are the two that come to mind immediately. You get the full abilities of the base classes plus arcane spellcasting, and EKs get heavy armor. Clerics (especially the War and Tempest domains) and bards are full casters with good combat abilities; and those clerics get heavy armor proficiency. Of course, paladins and rangers are fighter-types with spells.

I guess it all depends on how you define a "gish." Historically it's been a character that can both fight and cast arcane spells; but in 5e, even the divine/arcane distinction isn't so distinct anymore.

[Maan]

I think it's pretty likely you'll find something to your taste, here:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

[Willie the Duck]

I usually love playing characters with lots of fun versatile options, often buffing and BFC, with melee options. Melee SFWD bard, kung-fu tiger wild shaping gnome druid with monk dip, dwarven ordained champion cleric, fearcaster-illusionist gnome bard/dread witch (my first non-melee character).

I love being primarily a buffer/debuffer, BFC caster, but with good melee options, too. And maybe some social skills.

The class/subclass that best emulates this (and even better is a single class that is relatively hard to screw up*) for this specific setup is Valor Bard. You have strong AC, decent HP, a load of spells (focusing on buffing and BFC), as well as Inspiration Dice, which are a form of ally-buffing that is similar in concept (although completely different mechanics) to 3e bard's inspiring effects. Bards also have 'full' spell progression (so think whatever the bard PrC that got you 9th level spells).
*If you want to play a melee bard, you will probably want the War Caster feat so as to be able to cast with weapon and shield in hand. Otherwise, most of the choices are very intuitive.

The paladin is another good out-of-the-box class who does fighting (melee especially), as well as casting (admittedly, a lot more buffing than BFC). They cast at 1/2 full casting (so similar to 3e bards).

An Eldritch Knight Fighter is much more in the vein of the 3e classes who only ever get to 3th level spells -- much more combat than spells, but still a very solid, caster-themed, class. Major limitation is that BFC is not their mainstay and social skills not their focus.

Circle of Moon Druid would be an interesting alternative -- cast spells well (including much BFC), or fight relatively well (focusing on being big bag of pseudo-temp HP that the enemies bludgeon instead of anyone else), although doing casting and wild shape fighting at the same time is a lot more careful planning than with 3e druids. Also no social.


Is bladesinger as good as it sounds (for BFC buffer wizard, who can melee as well)?
Yes and no. It is a very strong wizard subclass. However, the hopes of a wizard who can melee well are unfulfilled. They are more like Wizards who can take a hit (and do a little melee damage, on the occasion that they wouldn't be casting a spell, which usually would be a better idea).


Is some kind of front-line BFC battle-cleric possible, without getting stuck in the heal-bot role?
There are absolutely ways to get that cleric -- pick up constitution saves (either by starting as another class like fighter, or grabbing the resilient:con feat) and the war caster feat. Then, in every fight worth casting spells in, cast Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon*, then either sit back and dodge, or swing with your one attack**. You will be a little whirlwind of death, using your spells to end fights before your allies take damage instead of healing them up.
*Note: if you cast a bonus action casting time requiring spell, the only other spell you can cast in that round is a cantrip, thus it takes two rounds to cast these two, even though one requires an action and the other a bonus action.
**I would only suggest this if you already have your concentration save well in hand, and even then only if you have picked up a single-attack-boosting effect like the spells Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade.


Sorry for the newbie questions. I’m just a day into my research, and feeling a bit lost and overwhelmed by options I don’t yet fully understand.
Any advice on builds or options that can guide my research would be appreciated, please and thank you.
No worries. We all started this journey at some time.


IF this will be your first foray into D&D 5e, be warned: Throw Away All Of Your Assumptions from 3.5e. Ignore it. Treat 5e as a new game.

This is the best piece of advice you will ever receive.

[Hiro Quester]

I guess I mean a character who is primarily a full caster (Not necessarily arcane), but with melee options as well, without completely hampering either role.

I mean being close to Tier1, in terms of power, but maybe T2, by trading a small amount of power for better versatility. Being able to make a meaningful contribution to any encounter, at all levels.

I don’t yet have the rule book for it, but it sounds like bladesinger might be a good option. as I understand it so far, yo7 are a full wizard, but can use bladesinger to melee when you are low on spells, or when you need to be at the front line.

That, or valor bard. (But I’ve played two very different 3.5 bards. It might be time for a new challenge, and play a bookish nerd type instead of a charismatic charmer).

[Unoriginal]

I am about to start playing in my first D&D 5.0 (using D&D Beyond) game after playing in 3.5 campaigns for the last decade. (Unfortunately due to political disagreements; DM has said IÂ’m no longer welcome, so IÂ’m joining another friendÂ’s game in a month or so when they start a new campaign.)

I usually love playing characters with lots of fun versatile options, often buffing and BFC, with melee options. Melee SFWD bard, kung-fu tiger wild shaping gnome druid with monk dip, dwarven ordained champion cleric, fearcaster-illusionist gnome bard/dread witch (my first non-melee character).

I love being primarily a buffer/debuffer, BFC caster, but with good melee options, too. And maybe some social skills.

I have always wanted to play a swiftblade. That would have been my next character if I kept playing 3.5.

What are good options for doing this kind of thing in 5.0?

Is bladesinger as good as it sounds (for BFC buffer wizard, who can melee as well)?

Perhaps something like a swiftblade (haste-addict casting twinned haste as a bonus action) is possible with a multiclass combination of favored soul sorcerer and eldritch knight or arcane trickster?

A valor bard also seems somewhat promising, nabbing haste as a magical secrets spell.

Is some kind of front-line BFC battle-cleric possible, without getting stuck in the heal-bot role?

Sorry for the newbie questions. IÂ’m just a day into my research, and feeling a bit lost and overwhelmed by options I donÂ’t yet fully understand.

Any advice on builds or options that can guide my research would be appreciated, please and thank you.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how important is it to you to:

-Buff?
-Debuff?
-Fight in melee?
-Cast spells and melee attack in the same turn?
-Have a wide variety of spells?
-Have social capacities?

From a purely technical standpoint, Buff/Debuff Gish can describe everything in-between the Githyanki Transmuter and the Conquest Paladin, passing by the Sorcerer with two levels of Fighter, but there are a lot of differences in how it would feel to play.


I guess I mean a character who is primarily a full caster (Not necessarily arcane), but with melee options as well, without completely hampering either role.

I see, in that case you're probably better off with the Bladesinger Wizard, Valor or Sword Bard, Pact of the Blade Warlock (although some debate the Warlock is a full caster), or any of the Cleric Domains which give access to armor.



I don’t yet have the rule book for it, but it sounds like bladesinger might be a good option. as I understand it so far, yo7 are a full wizard, but can use bladesinger to melee when you are low on spells, or when you need to be at the front line.

Mostly accurate, but it's mostly a combat self-buff than strictly an emergency feature, if you get what I mean.



That, or valor bard. (But I’ve played two very different 3.5 bards. It might be time for a new challenge, and play a bookish nerd type instead of a charismatic charmer).

5e Bards are probably different from what you're used to, so you might be interested regardless.



I mean being close to Tier1, in terms of power, but maybe T2

There is no such thing in 5e. The tiers of play refer to your level range (first tier being lvl 1 to 4, etc).

[Hiro Quester]

I guess I would prioritize BFC and buffing, and the ability to take and inflict hits while doing so (without always being at the frontline, not being a weak target if attacked directly)

Having a variety of spells isn’t essential. Being able to repeatedly spam my most useful spells is good.

Being able to cast a spell and do something else in the same round is nice. (The bard I have been playing was stuck as buffer for the first two rounds of combat; every encounter I’m casting haste and using inspire courage, before I can use any more creative options. That gets tired.)

So what I like about the idea of Swiftblade in 3.5 is a combination of roleplaying and charcuterie [edit: character] abilities. Being a haste-addict, act first, think later type personality (fire gensai?) with abilities that help you survive if you get in over your head.

So warcaster seems essential.

But I also likes not having to cower at the back, afraid of being attacked. Able to be at the front lines for short-range spells, spring-attacking to stay out of reach, and having lots of defensive buffs (miss chances) from a single spell that you can cast as a swift(bonus) action (giving you options for other actions).

it seems that if many spells require concentration, being able to melee while you keep that buff up with concentration seems useful.

Edit: it really is looking like valor bard fits most of my criteria.

I’m just somewhat motivated to find a different roleplaying niche than party face. I might like to berash and slightly annoying about it.

[Unoriginal]

I guess I would prioritize BFC and buffing, and the ability to take and inflict hits while doing so (without always being at the frontline, not being a weak target if attacked directly)

What does BFC stand for?



Being able to cast a spell and do something else in the same round is nice. (The bard I have been playing was stuck as buffer for the first two rounds of combat; every encounter I’m casting haste and using inspire courage, before I can use any more creative options. That gets tired.)


Keep in mind that there are non-spell options for buff/debuff, too.



So what I like about the idea of Swiftblade in 3.5 is a combination of roleplaying and charcuterie abilities. Being a haste-addict, act first, think later type personality (fire gensai?) with abilities that help you survive if you get in over your head.

Haste-addict might be hard to replicate, but otherwise that seems pretty doable.

For some reason your descriptions keep making me imagine an Eladrin.

[TheMango55]

Seems like valor bard or swords bard is right up your alley then.

You could also take a 1-2 level dip into Hexblade Warlock if you don’t mind being a little powergamey.

[Hiro Quester]

BFC=battlefield control. Using spells like walls, entangle, summons, sleet storm to separate enemies, so the party can all deal with each individually.

e.g. you are being charged by five giants. You drop a wall spell in front of three of them, so the party can deal with the first two, and then deal with the others, rather than being overrun by all five simultaneously.

[MoiMagnus]

1) The Warlock's "pact of the blade" is kind of lame by itself. However, in the book "Xanathar's guide to everything", they released a Warlock patron called the Hexblade that fixes most of the issues and make a very interesting gish character. (Note: this character use Charisma to attack with its weapons).

2) The Eldritch Knight (Fighter subclass) does its job very well, but is on the simple side, possibly too simple for someone coming from 3.5.

3) Bard of valour and Bladesinger leads to "spellcaster than can fight", but you're still a full spellcaster and your power will come from your high level spells, not your capacity to fight with your weapon (which will still be very useful to take care of enemies that are not worth a spell slot). Note that the Bladesinger is about to have a new version released in the upcoming book "Tasha's cauldron of everything", which will (among others), remove the restriction to elves only.

4) Paladin is great. If there is one class 5e successfully manage to rework, it is the Paladin. (Well, it's maybe a little too strong, but that's its only problem). The class is much wider in case of character concepts than before, as you no longer need to venerate a god (though you still can), or a Good alignment (though the default oath kind of assume you do). You just need to follow a personal code.
Important: Alignments don't matter any more. Detection of/Protection against evil and good just detect extra-planar entities, not peoples of those alignments.

[Unoriginal]

BFC=battlefield control. Using spells like walls, entangle, summons, sleet storm to separate enemies, so the party can all deal with each individually.

e.g. you are being charged by five giants. You drop a wall spell in front of three of them, so the party can deal with the first two, and then deal with the others, rather than being overrun by all five simultaneously.

Have to warn you, it's very hard to do battlefield control and buff/debuff at the same time in 5e.

[cutlery]

BAB isn't a thing, so if you want extra attack you'll need to take levels in a class (or subclass) that gets it.

Think about spell lists first, and whether or not certain lists scratch the itch for you. If the paladin list doesn't, don't go down that rabbit hole.

If you consider multiclassing, find some points of comparison - at level 11 fighters and paladins gain extra melee damage, and at level 12 pure pact of the blade warlocks gain an option for the same. You might easily put together a multiclass combination that lags behind in the level 11-16 range if you don't plan around this. There are some melee cantrips in SCAG but they can't keep up with a fighter's three attacks.

Think about how much melee you want, and what you want the spells to do. Fireballs? A few noncombat tricks? Teleports?

Multiclassing is far more costly in terms of delayed features in 5e than it was in 3.5.

[Klorox]

I'm currently playing a full bladesinger and I love this character.

The issue is that when you do get hit, it really hurts.

If you want a full gish, I think you're better off starting with a level or two of fighter and then going bladesinger, just for the HP and dueling fighting style.

The hexblade warlock is a great gish too, if that's your flavor.

[Sception]

IMO paladin is the best mix of combat and casting in 5e, for a new player especially. in 5e Paladin is a strong, effective class with some good spells (Bless, Aid, Find Steed, aura of vitality, soon to add spirit shroud, plus several good spells from subclasses), solid martial abilities, and the divine smite feature which blends those two pillars together better than any other gish manages. Its features, especially in the first half of your progression, are all reasonably to highly effective, do what they say on the tin, and work well together to encourage fun thematic play both in terms of how you play your own character and how the other players play their characters around yours. All the subclasses are flavorful and at least reasonably effective, sustained if nothing else by the fact that the the parent class core package is so good that the subclasses don't need to add much to it to be viable.

The class has some weaknesses - limited mobility in situations where mounted combat isn't viable, negligible ability to threaten targets at range, a lot of pressure on limited daily resources forcing you to ration your spell slots carefully, heavy pressure on multiple stats - typical paladins want to max out both charisma and a weapon attack stat - which leaves little room to play around with feats and puts a lot of pressure on your racial choice (though if your DM allows the racial stat swapping rules from the upcoming 'Tasha's Cauldron of Everything' book then that at least is fixed), plus there's a fair bit of pressure on your skill proficiencies since charisma is one of the good skill stats but you don't get any extra proficiencies to help grab everything you might want.

But none of that is unworkable or even particularly hard to play around.

The other issues with paladin that might matter a bit more to you are that the class features do thin out a bit as your progression goes on. Generally paladin goes strong until level 6. Then between 6 and 12 the power progression can feel like it slows down depending on your subclass. If your subclass has a good level 7 aura and desirable 3rd level oath spells at level 9 (the paladin spell aura of vitality is decent on its own but not exactly a 'wow' spell on its own), then you can easy make it all the way to level 12, or level 13 with the 'improved find steed' spell from Xanathar's Guiade, without feeling any appreciable slowdown. If either your level 7 feature or your third level spells are lackluster then it can start to feel a bit more sluggish. Fortunately Tasha's is set to add 'spirit shroud' as a third level paladin class spell so all subclasses will be able to rely on that at least. After level 12/13 all paladins do start to slow down noticeably. That's not surprising or even a big problem - all non-full-casters eventually experience a similar slowdown, most a lot earlier, and it's not /that bad/ for paladins. And if you do stick it out to level 20, paladin subclasses generally have phenomenal capstones.

But if you do start feeling the slowdown then paladin, or just want more casting, then you'll find that paladin multiclasses fantastically into warlock, sorcerer, or bard, any of which will improve your spellcasting abilities, help you feel more gishy, and improve your late game power progression curve. 6 to 13 levels of paladin followed by 14 to 7 levels of any sorcerer, warlock, bard, or nearly any mix thereof will work quite well for you. Paladin/Sorcerer in particular is a long running multiclass powerhouse going back to the start of the edition and still going strong with new content today.

[patchyman]

What do you mean by gish?

The 5e paladin is a nice mix of combat and spells. The gotcha alignment game is over; Oath of Vengeance in particular is a fine melee fighter and as you get paladin spells you can get various buffs and such.

If you want some control on your paladin, Oath of Conquest is really good too.

[Tvtyrant]

Gestalt 5E feels a lot like 3.5 options wise, so if you are looking for 3.5 but smoother that's my suggestion.

[king_steve]

I know you said you didn't have the books yet, but once you do, I'd suggest reviewing the spell lists.

Personally, I think Clerics and Bards make great support builds, but depending on your goals you might be left wanting. Bard's have Magical Secrets which lets them pick up 2 spells from any spell list, which is very powerful, but it does come online a bit late (level 10, 14, 18, College of Lore Bards get additional secrets at 6).

As for specific ways to build a gish, Artificer's can be very versatile, but it is only a half caster. I'm biased, I really like artificers.

Warlocks make pretty powerful as a gish, again, I'd suggest reviewing spell lists, I personally like the Warlock spell list quite a bit.

A common type of build is Paladin 2/Sorc X or Paladin 6/Sorc Y (depending on if you want to get extra attack), this is centered mostly around using Font of Magic to generate spell slots for smites.


So, I think a lot of this will depend on how much you want to balance support buffs vs debuffs vs direct offense.

[Unoriginal]

Paladins are nice but probably not caster-y enough for OP, as they don't want to be mainly a melee combatant.

[Sception]

There's a whole build guide for conquest. It's fun and good, and in particular plays very differently from other paladins which is neat. But it's also highly dependent on the frighten condition - which many enemies resist and quite a few are immune to - which are delivered almost exclusively via wisdom save effects - which even more enemies are strong against, seriously, as someone who's played several conquest paladins spell resistance, legendary saves, and sky high wisdom saving throw bonuses have been way more difficult to work around than resistance or outright immunity to the frighten condition specifically.

I would and do recommend conquerors for experienced 5e paladin players looking for a change of pace while still offering the strong core feature set and party buffs that make all 5e paladins so rewarding, but for a player new to the edition looking to play their first paladin, I'd suggest one of the oaths that play in a more typical fashion for the class - vengeance, devotion, ancients, even oathbreaker in a bad guys / antiheroes game. These all revolve around a relatively similar core play style that's much less dependent on the particular types and vulnerabilities of enemies you encounter.

Plus, that traditional play style is what Conquerors typically fall back on when their primary schtick isn't working, so it helps to already be familiar with it from past experience.

[noob]

IF this will be your first foray into D&D 5e, be warned: Throw Away All Of Your Assumptions from 3.5e. Ignore it. Treat 5e as a new game.

That is simply false.
5e is like any of the previous dnd a rpg based on a player and gm narration system where the gm describes the world and the events while the players impersonates characters and tells actions they would want their characters to do and commonly dice is involved to resolve the actions that have non deterministic results.
Furthermore 5e is way closer to 3.5 than 3.5 is to ad&d: a game where most fights are supposed to not be lethal while ad&d had most fights be lethal and other encounters were also lethal (the traps and cursed magic items were just wicked often offering no chance or nearly no chance of survival once triggered or used).
If you wanted to say "throw away all your assumption from 3.5e" you should tell it to a player starting ad&d not to a player starting 5e because the gap between 5e and 3.x editions is likely to be the smallest gap between the four last editions: 4e and ad&d are way more different from 3.5 than 5e is.

Assumptions that are functional in 3.5 and 5E
1: Most fights are supposed to be possible to win with like 20% of the fights where you are not supposed to win and instead run away and/or die(and that is with gms that have a reputation to kill their players).
2: You do not need to read the rules: the proof is that many the playtesters of 3.5 and 5e did not read the rules.

[Klorox]

Paladins are nice but probably not caster-y enough for OP, as they don't want to be mainly a melee combatant.

A) LMAO at your deleted post. I am not a fan myself.

Paladin technically fits the gish idea, but it really doesn’t feel like one. One of those “I don’t know how to define art, but I know it when I see it” kind of things.

[KorvinStarmast]

I guess I mean a character who is primarily a full caster (Not necessarily arcane), but with melee options as well, without completely hampering either role. Rule 1. Forget the Tier 1 through Tier 5 thing. 5e's balance is not as far out of whack as 3.5e's. Stop thinking like that, is what I am suggesting.

And yes: Valor Bard is where you want to go.
Full caster, decent melee, and one of the very nice things about bards is that with Magical Secrets, you can get a few real nice spells - From Any Class - at higher levels that you just 'must have'

Optimizers love that feature of bard.

[ff7hero]

Fighter2/WizardX might be right up your alley. Action Surge and some martial ability would probably help capture that Swiftblade vibe. Plus it's one of the only ways to cast more than one leveled spell in a turn.

ETA:

Rule 1. Forget the Tier 1 throuth Tier 5 thing. 5e's balance is as far out of whack as 3.5e's.

While I think that last sentence has a typo, I'm inclined to agree with that line and advise against the rest of the post. 3.5 tiers were about ability to solve problems, and the Wizard can still solve more problems than the Barbarian.

ETA2, Electric Bugaloo: The typo was fixed, the rest stands. :)

[Xervous]

That is simply false.
5e is like any of the previous dnd a rpg based on a player and gm narration system where the gm describes the world and the events while the players impersonates characters and tells actions they would want their characters to do and commonly dice is involved to resolve the actions that have non deterministic results.
Furthermore 5e is way closer to 3.5 than 3.5 is to ad&d: a game where most fights are supposed to not be lethal while ad&d had most fights be lethal and other encounters were also lethal (the traps and cursed magic items were just wicked often offering no chance or nearly no chance of survival once triggered or used).
If you wanted to say "throw away all your assumption from 3.5e" you should tell it to a player starting ad&d not to a player starting 5e because the gap between 5e and 3.x editions is likely to be the smallest gap between the four last editions: 4e and ad&d are way more different from 3.5 than 5e is.

Yet 5e is much closer to AD&D in how the player facing portions of the system generally don’t allow for massive divergence in numbers from the expected outputs, and how people will flip out over a +1/+2 difference and bemoan the overpowered options.

[noob]

Yet 5e is much closer to AD&D in how the player facing portions of the system generally don’t allow for massive divergence in numbers from the expected outputs, and how people will flip out over a +1/+2 difference and bemoan the overpowered options.

The specifics of the character building game rules are irrelevant for many players of dnd 3.5 and 5E: even among playtesters many of them did never read the rules.
Those rule details are a minor difference for the average player relatively to things like "are monsters rather easy to beat or not" and "what is the kind of mentality the current gms have"(because it influence massively how the game goes)
We care disproportionately more about the rules here than at other places because this forum is highly oriented toward discussions about a comic where characters are aware of the rules of their own world.

[TheMango55]

If you go with paladin 6/sorcerer X you could quicken a hold person/monster and hit them with two crit smites in a single turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you go with paladin 6/sorcerer X you could quicken a hold person/monster and hit them with two crit smites in a single turn.
That too. I think a link to the Sorcadin guide might be what PO is looking for.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I guess I would prioritize BFC and buffing, and the ability to take and inflict hits while doing so (without always being at the frontline, not being a weak target if attacked directly)

Having a variety of spells isn’t essential. Being able to repeatedly spam my most useful spells is good.

Being able to cast a spell and do something else in the same round is nice. (The bard I have been playing was stuck as buffer for the first two rounds of combat; every encounter I’m casting haste and using inspire courage, before I can use any more creative options. That gets tired.)

So what I like about the idea of Swiftblade in 3.5 is a combination of roleplaying and charcuterie [edit: character] abilities. Being a haste-addict, act first, think later type personality (fire gensai?) with abilities that help you survive if you get in over your head.

So warcaster seems essential.

But I also likes not having to cower at the back, afraid of being attacked. Able to be at the front lines for short-range spells, spring-attacking to stay out of reach, and having lots of defensive buffs (miss chances) from a single spell that you can cast as a swift(bonus) action (giving you options for other actions).

it seems that if many spells require concentration, being able to melee while you keep that buff up with concentration seems useful.

Edit: it really is looking like valor bard fits most of my criteria.

I’m just somewhat motivated to find a different roleplaying niche than party face. I might like to berash and slightly annoying about it.
The Bladesinger gets you three important things for a melee Wizard:

A big AC boost. Int-to-AC, combined with access to the Shield spell, will give you excellent AC.
A big boost to Concentration saves. It alleviates the need for War Caster, but the benefits of both will stack.
Extra Attack.

What you don't get is hit points or bonus damage. Pretty much every spell that would add a little more oomph to your swings is going to be Concentration, reducing your ability to do other Wizard things. You're also stuck with a d6 hit die, and the need to focus on three ability scores: Int for spellcasting, Dex for AC and melee, and Con for survival. There's not much room for build freedom, as you need some many Ability Score Increases for your abilities, and Bladesong locks you into using light armor and one-handed weapons.

An alternative gish-Wizard is the School of Abjuration. They don't get anything that boosts AC, concentration, or weapon attacks--but what they do get is health. An extra 2*level + Int temporary hit points, which can be recharged by casting Abjuration spells. That effectively kicks you up to a d10 hit die, but with wonkier healing mechanics. (Combat healing can't help you that much, but out of combat it's easy to refill by doing things like repeated casting Alarm as a ritual). You don't get Extra Attack like the Bladesinger, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide also gives you the tools you need to melee anyway: Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade. Both cantrips let you make a melee weapon attack with some sort of rider, and both attack and rider scale like normal cantrips. Your damage using one will honestly be pretty similar to the Bladesinger--a little more when the rider triggers, and a little less when it doesn't.

The reason I suggest Abjurer over Bladesinger is that Arcane Ward, unlike Bladesong, has no restrictions. Want to use it in heavy armor? Use a shield or wield a giant hammer? No problem, go right ahead. The classic build is something like Fighter 1/Abjurer 19, though if you can get weapon proficiencies through race (Githyanki, say) Artificer makes an interesting alternative. Add War Caster if you want to use a shield...or, if you want to use what passes for cheese in 5e, play a Deep Gnome and take the Svirfneblin Magic feat (both can be found in the free Elemental Evil Player's Companion pdf). That gives you Nondetection at will, letting you refill your Arcane Ward very quickly between fights.

tl;dr: Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 19 with Green Flame Blade might be just what you're after.

[noob]

Sorcadins usually can smite a lot of times.
There is like 6 different cutoff points for the spread between paladin and sorcerer due to all the class features a player might want to grab from the paladin class.

As for nondetection at will be aware it is very useful outside of recharging your arcane ward: nobody can scry your party anymore.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I see that attraction of the paladin, but it’s not really what I’m looking for.

I’m looking closer at warlock (and perhaps the hexblade version when I get access to books beyond the PH). I incorrectly assumed the pact had to be with a demon or devil type, and you had to be evil. I don’t really play evil characters well or comfortably. But now I see there are other options, this seems intriguing. The blade pact seems to have some interesting possibilities. I’m keen to see hexblade.

I’m learning a lot today. Thanks, and keep it going.

[cutlery]

An alternative gish-Wizard is the School of Abjuration. They don't get anything that boosts AC, concentration, or weapon attacks--but what they do get is health.

Second that - and as Grod noted, Githyanki can work out great for a single-classed wizard (medium armor, fun flashy greatsword, effectively an extra cantrip and an emergency teleport in the tank for later levels) and a few levels of fighter doesn't hurt (well, it hurts caster progression, but the trade-off may be worth it).

War wizard is a good option, too, though you won't have the abjuration hit point sponge.

[Eldariel]

Melee Bladesinger is strong. OTOH just melee Abjurer is fine; Booming Blade and just get in there in melee and hit things in the face (with Warcaster AoOs too, though that's getting a nerf in Tasha's). The new Bladesinger is a bit limited on Bladesong meaning their AC will suffer for many encounters but they're really good while Bladesinging and their Extra Attack is quite a bit better than the normal Bladesinger's since they can combine it with Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade.

It's actually the case that just a plain Wizard with no melee specialisation besides getting some proficiencies (race such as Hobgoblin, Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf works beautifully) is actually a perfectly competitive melee build in this edition. Or Fighter (or Cleric-Artificer-whatever) 1/Wizard X. So...yeah, here you really don't need to work hard to combine almost full casting and melee.

[Willie the Duck]

That is simply false.
First and foremost, KorvinStarmast didn't make a falsifiable statement, he offered advice. Agree with it, disagree with it, whatever you like. That doesn't make it "false."


5e is like any of the previous dnd a rpg based on a player and gm narration system where the gm describes the world and the events while the players impersonates characters and tells actions they would want their characters to do and commonly dice is involved to resolve the actions that have non deterministic results.
3e and 5e are both traditional TTRPGs. True, but clearly not KS's point, if one is reading their post in good faith.


If you wanted to say "throw away all your assumption from 3.5e" you should tell it to a player starting ad&d not to a player starting 5e because the gap between 5e and 3.x editions is likely to be the smallest gap between the four last editions: 4e and ad&d are way more different from 3.5 than 5e is.
That would be precisely the reason to listen to Korvin's advice -- the editions look close enough that people might mistake them to be the same thing, or expect something to hold true in one that exists in the other, despite the implementation between the two being wildly different. Particularly in the finer details. OP has referenced a number of things -- BFC, trying to make a haste build because they were contemplating a swiftblade for 3e, tiers, even something as simple as the battlemaster being good in melee (perhaps because they get AC and multiattack, missing the nuance that without additional add-ons, multiattack is probably just two 1d8+stat pokes) -- these are things the OP is taking from 3e and assuming would work the same in 5e. For the most part, they act as a 3e player might expect, but whether they are effective is unclear, based on a different context. The juxtaposition might be more obvious if the OP was coming in wanting to play a monk (where the removal of full round actions changes the entire dynamic) or a fighter rogue who wants to sneak attack with a greatsword. Regardless, checking ones 3e assumptions at the door is thoroughly helpful advice to someone new to the edition, regardless of any comparisons to (or even the existence of) AD&D.

[Unoriginal]

That is for all the suggestions. I see that attraction of the paladin, but it’s not really what I’m looking for.

I’m looking closer at warlock (and perhaps the hexblade version when I get access to books beyond the PH). I incorrectly assumed the pact had to be with a demon or devil type, and you had to be evil. I don’t really play evil characters well or comfortably. But now I see there are other options, this seems intriguing. The blade pact seems to have some interesting possibilities. I’m keen to see hexblade.

One of the good things about the Warlock is that even if you make a Pact with a fiend, you don't have to be evil or even to be in contact with your Patron at all, beside the moment they gave the character their spark of power. Can also take a look at the Celestial Warlock.

[Hiro Quester]

I’m kind of liking the look of sorcadin, now I think about it more. It’s worth investigating further. (I just have to put aside my preconception of the 3.5 alignment straightjacket that no longer exists.)

or fighter 2/ caster 18 for the action surge.

So many good options. I’m book-limited, so I can’t fully investigate them all just yet. But I’m making many notes and learning quickly. Thanks!

[Hiro Quester]

tl;dr: Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 19 with Green Flame Blade might be just what you're after.

Thanks, Grod. That does look promising, too.

[paladinn]

That too. I think a link to the Sorcadin guide might be what PO is looking for.

If you want to go gonzo, consider sorlocadin :)

[Klorox]

How about artificer 5/abjuror X?

Battle Smith artificer 5 gives you 5d8 HP, extra attack, and lets you use INT instead of STR or DEX for weapon attacks. You get medium armor and shield proficiency.

Abjuration wizard gives you an arcane ward and it's a wizard, so there's nothing better than that!


Hmmm, I actually really like this build. You'll never cast 9th level spells, but you really do get all you could ask for in a gish.

[Gtdead]

I am about to start playing in my first D&D 5.0 (using D&D Beyond) game after playing in 3.5 campaigns for the last decade. (Unfortunately due to political disagreements; DM has said I’m no longer welcome, so I’m joining another friend’s game in a month or so when they start a new campaign.)

I usually love playing characters with lots of fun versatile options, often buffing and BFC, with melee options. Melee SFWD bard, kung-fu tiger wild shaping gnome druid with monk dip, dwarven ordained champion cleric, fearcaster-illusionist gnome bard/dread witch (my first non-melee character).

Welcome to 5e, pretty sad that your DM kicked you out due to political disagreements.




I love being primarily a buffer/debuffer, BFC caster, but with good melee options, too. And maybe some social skills.

All arcane casters are good controllers, with wizard and bard having an edge IMO, but Sorcerer is really good too. For social skills on the other side, Bard literally blows the other casters out of the water. There is no comparison. Clerics are a bit different because they don't have many control spells, but Spirit Guardians is an amazing multipurpose spell that deals both damage and no save slow. It's soft control but surprisingly effective. You will have to boost his concentration saves though.




I have always wanted to play a swiftblade. That would have been my next character if I kept playing 3.5.

What are good options for doing this kind of thing in 5.0?

Is bladesinger as good as it sounds (for BFC buffer wizard, who can melee as well)?

Perhaps something like a swiftblade (haste-addict casting twinned haste as a bonus action) is possible with a multiclass combination of favored soul sorcerer and eldritch knight or arcane trickster?

A valor bard also seems somewhat promising, nabbing haste as a magical secrets spell.

I'd say that the best class to emulate the Swiftblade is Bladesinger. There is an obvious problem here with the action economy because you will have to spend a turn casting haste (and possibly bladesong), but it's really hard to work around this problem. The only solution is contingency. Cast one in your downtime and create an easy trigger for haste (like a word or a gesture) so you can haste yourself without using an action. It's a costly combo though and it will start happening at lvl 11. Perhaps you can do it with a ring of spell storing attuned to your familiar too but 5e is fairly low on magic items and it's DM dependent.

I don't think a sorcerer for BA haste is a good idea because you won't have access to the extra attack feature without multiclassing and there is little point to use haste just to match an unbuffed character with access to extra attack or having to wait till level 10 as a multiclass like Sorcerer/Paladin. And even then, haste isn't necessarily the best option. Shadowblade will probably be better. However, sorcerer can get a lot of value from single target buffs like Haste. It's fairly cheap for him to haste both himself and another character through twin metamagic. Not sure if it's worth it because losing concentration is very dangerous and you will want to be in melee, but it's nice if you can make it work (perhaps by hasting the paladin if exists and staying near him. Con proficiency and aura pretty much guarantee that you will be able to hold concentration). You will quickly notice that it's hard to build it though due to the lack of armor/martial weapons and having to raise 3 stats (CHA, CON and DEX). You can dip hexblade for CHA weapon attacks, armor and weapon proficiencies, but if you go that route, it's far better to create an eldritch blast focused sorlock even if you want to be in melee with it.

Sword/Valor Bards are good in theory, but don't forget that they get their first Magical Secrets at lvl 10. They get better and better from there onwards but you will have to accept that till then you will be limited as both a melee and a controller while Lore Bard is a fairly good controller right out of the box. I'm not an expert on Bard though so I may be missing a few things.




Is some kind of front-line BFC battle-cleric possible, without getting stuck in the heal-bot role?

If your party expects you to heal, then don't bother with cleric. Healing is even worse in this edition in my opinion. On the other hand, cleric is mostly a buffer. His control spells are not too hot. Holy Aura and Divine Word are nice but limited against type plus they come fairly late into the game. His best option is Spirit Guardians but that's not traditional control. He also has access to spells like Banishment and depending on the subclass he can get suggestion, sleet storm, polymorph etc, but I still haven't seen any good controller cleric build because the spirit guardian play is very strong.



Sorry for the newbie questions. I’m just a day into my research, and feeling a bit lost and overwhelmed by options I don’t yet fully understand.

Any advice on builds or options that can guide my research would be appreciated, please and thank you.

When I started 5e, I too was looking for a Gish. It's way more challenging to do it in this edition due to how they changed access to extra attacks. Cleric for example went from a melee monster to being the worse class in weapon combat. After so many years and 3 extra books, we still can't build a low cost solid weapon cleric. Booming Blade is nice, but that's the extend of it. You can add things like shillelagh and mobile but I'd say that the opportunity cost is fairly high.

[Hiro Quester]

That too. I think a link to the Sorcadin guide might be what PO is looking for.

It really was. I learned a lot. There are many awesome variations in this vein that seem promising.

The warlock dip (if that’s a “sorlocadin”) looks a bit over-optimized.

[Unoriginal]

The warlock dip (if that’s a “sorlocadin”) looks a bit over-optimized.

Overengineered would be a better word for it, IMO.

[KorvinStarmast]

Overengineered would be a better word for it, IMO.yep. Though the "single dip in hexblade" schtick will draw some fans ....

[paladinn]

"Sorlocadin" is paladin/warlock/sorcerer multiclass. I went vengeance paladin, hexblade and divine soul. So much fun and synergy. It wasn't the most optimized, but had lots of flavor. Fight, smite, blast, heal, fireball.. and CHA SADness. Good times :)

[Eldariel]

I'd say that the best class to emulate the Swiftblade is Bladesinger. There is an obvious problem here with the action economy because you will have to spend a turn casting haste (and possibly bladesong), but it's really hard to work around this problem. The only solution is contingency. Cast one in your downtime and create an easy trigger for haste (like a word or a gesture) so you can haste yourself without using an action. It's a costly combo though and it will start happening at lvl 11. Perhaps you can do it with a ring of spell storing attuned to your familiar too but 5e is fairly low on magic items and it's DM dependent.

Well, Ring of Spell Storing can let your Familiar Haste you, which is a pretty solid solution: saves the Concentration and the action. Then said familiar just needs to GTFO so it doesn't stun you by dying. Other than that, Chronurgist Wizard could of course just use their level 10 ability to outsource the Concentration. And once you have Simulacrum on level 13, Simulacrum can just Haste you (though you still want to Tenser's yourself on the first round probably if you wanna hit things in the face on these levels).

[Kane0]

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- Attacks are classified oddly but they all boil down to a combination of [melee or ranged] and [weapon or spell]
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and -2s.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.

- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.

- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buff, debuff and control spells need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', as in you don’t put individual spells into slots, you just have a collection of spells available to you and spell slots to fuel them with. Your spells will either be prepared or known based on class.
- High casting stat doesn’t give you additional spell slots, but does affect your spell attack bonus and spell DC (which is the same across all spell levels).
- Cantrips are notable now, offering viable damage output based on PC level not caster level

- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Encounter design and challenge rating is also different. A CR 6 enemy is an easy (little resource expenditure & low chance of falling) challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not an easy challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters during an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.


I would recommend a bard or multiclass sorcerer/paladin depending on how direct you want to be about things. Warlock is also an option but I'm not allowed to suggest warlock for everything anymore.

[GeoffWatson]

Be careful. A lot of the multi-class "min-max" builds are designed to be the most powerful at level 20, and don't care how they play while levelling.

[Petrocorus]

IF this will be your first foray into D&D 5e, be warned: Throw Away All Of Your Assumptions from 3.5e. Ignore it. Treat 5e as a new game.

Some of the game terms are similar but they mean different things.
I cannot support this enough.
At least when it comes to character building and optimizing. And action management.

The game is much more balance overall, but there is nowhare near the same wealth of character options.
You cannot build the X-Men any more, but OTOH, the Fighter is not reduced to be the Cleric's luggage carrier after level 6 or so.



https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds
+1
The Frontline Arcane Cleric and the Hobgoblin Iron Mage are interesting picks that may fit your criteria, Hiro.



I mean being close to Tier1, in terms of power, but maybe T2, by trading a small amount of power for better versatility. Being able to make a meaningful contribution to any encounter, at all levels.

This is not a thing any more. Most classes and subclasses are balanced until late mid level.
With an handful of exceptions of some subclasses that are really better or worse than the other subclasses of the same class (i'm looking at you, Hexblade and BeastMaster).



So what I like about the idea of Swiftblade in 3.5 is a combination of roleplaying and charcuterie [edit: character] abilities. Being a haste-addict, act first, think later type personality (fire gensai?) with abilities that help you survive if you get in over your head.

Very difficult to implement in 5E. Haste has been quite reduced in power in 5E, and concentration is a big limit.
As others have said, Bladesinger is probably the best way to do it, but a sorlock, sorcadin, bardadin or warladin can do it to.
You won't even remotely be as awesome as a 3.5 Swiftblade.

Read and reread Kane0's last post. In fact, you should probably pdf-print it until you have integrated this.

[Fryy]

I’m kind of liking the look of sorcadin, now I think about it more. It’s worth investigating further. (I just have to put aside my preconception of the 3.5 alignment straightjacket that no longer exists.)

or fighter 2/ caster 18 for the action surge.

So many good options. I’m book-limited, so I can’t fully investigate them all just yet. But I’m making many notes and learning quickly. Thanks!

Or 2 Paladin / 18 Swords Bard.

[XmonkTad]

or fighter 2/ caster 18 for the action surge.

So many good options. I’m book-limited, so I can’t fully investigate them all just yet. But I’m making many notes and learning quickly. Thanks!

If you're planning on going into melee with a caster that doesn't get Extra Attack, that's a possibility. There are 2 cantrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade out of the Sword Coasts Adventurer's Guide) that really help. Basically they're cantrips that have you make a weapon attack as part of casting the spell, as well as doing a bit of extra damage with the rider effect. They can make your 1 attack better.

I would also recommend to you any cleric (especially war, tempest, and death) as well as divine soul sorcerer as they get access to the spell "Spirit Guardians". This spell does a lot of what you want, BFC and damage, that supports a melee fighter very well. And it doesn't have friendly fire.

And welcome to 5e!

[Skylivedk]

Fun and versatile?

I'd go with either the new bladesinger or a 1 Hexblade / 2 Pala / X Sword Bard. You'll pack a punch, have expertise in skills, good damage, great AC and level 9 spells by level 20. I'd probably start with Hexblade, go bard 5 then Pala 2 and the rest Bard. Enjoy

[Hiro Quester]

Obligatory edition warning

That was a very useful summary of cautions and advice. Thanks.

I now have a good list of the options for roughly the kind of character I’d like to play. Thanks, everyone!

In no particular order:


valor bard
bardadin
abjurer wizard (maybe with fighter dip)
warlock (hexblade)
sorcadin (or sorlocadin)
bladesinger
cleric (war, tempest, death)


Did I miss anything really good?

there seems to be decent, detailed, guide to most of these options, to help me research these. Of course, a lot of the decision about which of these options I might take will depend on the rest of the party, and complementing their choices.

I’m going to spend some time doing research, and starting to learn the new rules, spells, etc. We have a month or two before the campaign begins (they are in the last couple of games of their current campaign).

[Unoriginal]

Just have to point out if you go Abjurer Wizard without a Fighter dip, you probably want to get armor and weapon proficiencies from another source.

[Skylivedk]

Just have to point out if you go Abjurer Wizard without a Fighter dip, you probably want to get armor and weapon proficiencies from another source.
Agreed. Popular options include Hexblade (again... You'll see it suggested as a dip very very often), Hobgoblin, Cleric and Mark of Warding Dwarf. I've long wanted to do a Paladin/Abjurer, but stats would be atrocious.

By the way: a pure Hexblade is a great Gish as well. I played one from 2-17 and he was an absolute wrecking ball who also became increasingly versatile.

[Sception]

sorcadin is taking a bit of a hit from the errata to the scag weapon cantrips changing them to self-targeting spells. Looks like they can no longer be used as opportunity attacks with war caster (though there has been some debate about that & will probably come down to sage rulings) and can no longer be twinned. They should still work with quicken, though, and still provide a reasonable enough replacement for extra attack if you aren't going to pick that up in your progression (eg pal2 sor 18 or pal2 war1 sor17 or fighter 2 abjurer 18 builds), so all in all it really could have been worse.

[Unoriginal]

Agreed. Popular options include Hexblade (again... You'll see it suggested as a dip very very often), Hobgoblin, Cleric and Mark of Warding Dwarf. I've long wanted to do a Paladin/Abjurer, but stats would be atrocious.

Mountain Dwarf and Githyanki are also pretty good, although some people don't agree with the Dwarf due to the lack of Int bonus.



By the way: a pure Hexblade is a great Gish as well. I played one from 2-17 and he was an absolute wrecking ball who also became increasingly versatile.

Pure Hexblade can be nice. Hexblade dip is just... eh.

[paladinn]

Mountain Dwarf and Githyanki
Pure Hexblade can be nice. Hexblade dip is just... eh.

Totally disagree. A hexblade dip is a great add-on to a paladin. You can be CHA-SAD; you get a few spells for smite fuel (not as many as with sorcerer, but they recharge fast); and you can get a great ranged attack which becomes awesome with one more level.

[Skylivedk]

Totally disagree. A hexblade dip is a great add-on to a paladin. You can be CHA-SAD; you get a few spells for smite fuel (not as many as with sorcerer, but they recharge fast); and you can get a great ranged attack which becomes awesome with one more level.

I think the "eh"-part is more due to overuse than lack of efficiency. Of course I don't have Detect Thoughts not would Unoriginal be in range if I did...

Or would they?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Did I miss anything really good?
There's also the College of Swords Bard. It doesn't give you quite as many profciencies as Valor, but you get a fighting style and can use your weapons as focuses, which will make a noticeable difference at low levels in particular. The biggest difference is how the two use Bardic Inspiration. Valor is more of a support type, with great new ways for others to use your inspiration dice. Swords is selfish--instead of passing out inspiration, you'll spend it to enhance your own attacks and AC.

I feel like Swords gets a bad rap sometimes, since the limited proficiencies and fighting styles really force you into TWF, but it looks like a lot of fun. It's right up there with Armorer Artificer on my list of (official) things to play next.

[Unoriginal]

There's also the College of Swords Bard. It doesn't give you quite as many profciencies as Valor, but you get a fighting style and can use your weapons as focuses, which will make a noticeable difference at low levels in particular. The biggest difference is how the two use Bardic Inspiration. Valor is more of a support type, with great new ways for others to use your inspiration dice. Swords is selfish--instead of passing out inspiration, you'll spend it to enhance your own attacks and AC.

I feel like Swords gets a bad rap sometimes, since the limited proficiencies and fighting styles really force you into TWF, but it looks like a lot of fun. It's right up there with Armorer Artificer on my list of (official) things to play next.

Sword Bard is nice, but it's not really a buffing/debuffing subclass like OP wants.

[Eldariel]

Sword Bard is nice, but it's not really a buffing/debuffing subclass like OP wants.

I dunno about that. Bard by definition is a buffer/debuffer - Swords doesn't really alter their spell list which does plenty in that regard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sword Bard is nice, but it's not really a buffing/debuffing subclass like OP wants.
Eh, but neither is the Valor Bard, really. Valor gives you two new options for buffing others (no Inspiration die to damage or AC) and Swords gives you three more options for buffing yourself (Inspiration die to your own damage + AC/shove/secondary target). Eloquence, say, is a specific buffing/debuffing subclass.

[Petrocorus]

sorcadin is taking a bit of a hit from the errata to the scag weapon cantrips changing them to self-targeting spells. Looks like they can no longer be used as opportunity attacks with war caster (though there has been some debate about that & will probably come down to sage rulings) and can no longer be twinned. They should still work with quicken, though, and still provide a reasonable enough replacement for extra attack if you aren't going to pick that up in your progression (eg pal2 sor 18 or pal2 war1 sor17 or fighter 2 abjurer 18 builds), so all in all it really could have been worse.
And they cannot be combined with SpellSniper to be used with reach weapons and cannot be combined with Shadow Blade from what i just learnt on another thread.

I really wonder what the writers are thinking? Do they really believe gishes are too powerful in this edition?

[Xervous]

And they cannot be combined with SpellSniper to be used with reach weapons and cannot be combined with Shadow Blade from what i just learnt on another thread.

I really wonder what the writers are thinking? Do they really believe gishes are too powerful in this edition?

I’d wager it’s a blanket response to anything stacking or getting outside the narrow box of what they initially intended. Much like when a game developer sees a speed runner using a common, non exploit tactic and implements changes because “that’s not how you’re supposed to play the game”.

[Willie the Duck]

And they cannot be combined with SpellSniper to be used with reach weapons and cannot be combined with Shadow Blade from what i just learnt on another thread.

I really wonder what the writers are thinking? Do they really believe gishes are too powerful in this edition?

Exactly what the designers thought they were doing by making the SCAG cantrips in the first place is a question I don't feel has been answered.
A simple take might be that it was a straightforward 'whoa, only ever getting a single attack is a lot harsher than we intended (and a 5-level dip for multiattack too steep). Let's put these in for wizards/clerics who want to do a little melee.' In which case spell-sniper BB trick or sorcadin or War Caster special uses were unintended consequences.

Again, without any clear evidence, I feel a general voice from the writers that kind of says, 'we do not want the Internet-driven, total-optimization version of the game to look too different from the beer&pretzels version of the game.'

[Klorox]

Exactly what the designers thought they were doing by making the SCAG cantrips in the first place is a question I don't feel has been answered.
A simple take might be that it was a straightforward 'whoa, only ever getting a single attack is a lot harsher than we intended (and a 5-level dip for multiattack too steep). Let's put these in for wizards/clerics who want to do a little melee.' In which case spell-sniper BB trick or sorcadin or War Caster special uses were unintended consequences.

Again, without any clear evidence, I feel a general voice from the writers that kind of says, 'we do not want the Internet-driven, total-optimization version of the game to look too different from the beer&pretzels version of the game.'

I've been talking to one of my DMs and he's leaning on a long term "PHB only" campaign.

I can't say I blame him. The power creep is taking away from the wonder of this game, and I was never bored before SCAG came out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've been talking to one of my DMs and he's leaning on a long term "PHB only" campaign.

I can't say I blame him. The power creep is taking away from the wonder of this game, and I was never bored before SCAG came out.
SCAG was released one year into the edition, and it's been four years since then--if you're getting bored it might be because there are only so many things you can do with 5e. Or with D&D at all.

(Edit: I should say that I like 5e. I wouldn't want to use any other system to play D&D. But "D&D" has evolved into its own specific fantasy sub-genre, and one doesn't always want to play a combat-oriented dungeon-crawling zero-to-demigod classical-high-magic rules-moderate race/class based game)

[loki_ragnarock]

Something that hasn't been sufficiently emphasized is that 5e doesn't require much optimizing. Like, at all. Monsters in the manual often are undertuned compared to monster creation guidelines... guidelines that are themselves not particularly hardcore.

You can play pretty much anything and feel fine. 3.5, optimization was a need; "system mastery" was baked into the notions that underpinned the entire endeavor. 5e runs on a different paradigm, and it's very difficult to play something that feels ineffective.

The exception to this is Sorcerer. It's about the only class you can actually build something entirely ineffective without intentionally trying. So, watch out for that. Take it as a challenge if you want, but there's really a handful of ways to make an effective sorcerers and many, many ways to corner yourself.

My advice is to play a valor bard and use that as your way into thinking about the system and interfacing with the game; it's just complicated enough to dip your toes in and basically hits the notes you're looking for. Try it on. But KISS your way into the new edition.

[Klorox]

SCAG was released one year into the edition, and it's been four years since then--if you're getting bored it might be because there are only so many things you can do with 5e. Or with D&D at all.

(Edit: I should say that I like 5e. I wouldn't want to use any other system to play D&D. But "D&D" has evolved into its own specific fantasy sub-genre, and one doesn't always want to play a combat-oriented dungeon-crawling zero-to-demigod classical-high-magic rules-moderate race/class based game)

Poor grammar on my part. I was trying to say I haven't grown bored of D&D, and I wasn't bored even when it was just the core 3 books (PHB, DMG, MM).

I'd be perfectly happy hitting a reset button and only playing with those books.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Poor grammar on my part. I was trying to say I haven't grown bored of D&D, and I wasn't bored even when it was just the core 3 books (PHB, DMG, MM).

I'd be perfectly happy hitting a reset button and only playing with those books.
Ahh, gotcha. Sorry.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Something that hasn't been sufficiently emphasized is that 5e doesn't require much optimizing. Like, at all. Monsters in the manual often are undertuned compared to monster creation guidelines... guidelines that are themselves not particularly hardcore.


Agreed. My impression is that, for a lot of people, the perceived need for optimization pushes them outside the "normal" bounds of the system. And then they complain that it's too easy, when that's because they've moved into a position where the stock guidelines don't cover. And then they push difficulty the wrong way (often with bigger monsters in small, infrequent encounters necessitating even more optimization lest you get one-shot)) and create a spiral.

In my experience, 5e works best when you let all that go. Build normal characters, mostly by the book without stretching anything. Build characters with the fiction first[0] and let the mechanics handle themselves. Even sorcerers are just fine as blasters. Great? No. But not significantly worse than anybody else in that band. They keep up with a SnB champion fighter, a thief rogue, a greataxe wielding berserker barbarian, etc. just fine[1]. The trouble comes when you try to shoot for power and do it wrong. Often by just blindly following a guide. Are there less-well-supported niches (like an acid or a poison draconic sorcerer focusing on those elements?) Yes. Are they fatal? No.

[0] meaning leaning into the class fiction, not trying to construct a character outside the game then shoehorn it in. Just picking a race, then a class, then a background. Take the obvious optimizations (like put your top score into your primary stat and don't have a low CON and wield weapons and armor you're proficient in), but don't really worry past there.

[1] I chose those because those are the simple ones. The straight forward "in combat, I deal damage" types. Which is what a blaster sorcerer is.

[Willie the Duck]

Agreed. My impression is that, for a lot of people, the perceived need for optimization pushes them outside the "normal" bounds of the system. And then they complain that it's too easy, when that's because they've moved into a position where the stock guidelines don't cover. And then they push difficulty the wrong way (often with bigger monsters in small, infrequent encounters necessitating even more optimization lest you get one-shot)) and create a spiral.

In my experience, 5e works best when you let all that go.

Well, that, or you use some of the many optional rules included in the DMG for up-tuning the challenge of the game. 5e finally set the default difficulty* to easy, which makes sense if you are marketing to people new to the game or 10 year olds picking it up without being taught by an adult. It is what the Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer basic sets should have done decades earlier.
*Obviously, you can't set the difficulty, since unchallenged players can always seek out greater challenge regardless of the system, but you know what I mean.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well, that, or you use some of the many optional rules included in the DMG for up-tuning the challenge of the game. 5e finally set the default difficulty* to easy, which makes sense if you are marketing to people new to the game or 10 year olds picking it up without being taught by an adult. It is what the Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer basic sets should have done decades earlier.
*Obviously, you can't set the difficulty, since unchallenged players can always seek out greater challenge regardless of the system, but you know what I mean.

True. But using optional rules requires <gasp> reading. And that's not possible!

[Hiro Quester]

I’ve been playing around within all these options. DM is finishing his current campaign in the next month or so, and has let me into his campaign on D&D beyond, to have access to resources while we’re planning the next campaign.

So I’ve been building examples, and comparing them to characters others in the current campaign are playing (level 19).

I have to say, the pure hexblade is pretty damn awesome. With the right cantrips, and invocations (especially ones that improve your curse effect), a reach pact weapon, it’s pretty vicious. And it can have some strong social abilities out of combat. More limited casting is tough, in terms of versatility. But recovering spells with a short rest almost makes up for it.

Valor bard (with a hexblade dip for CHA to attack and damage, medium armor, booming blade and green flame blade cantrips, and a 1/ short rest curse) is also awesome. 2 attacks, and the ability to cast a spell and make a weapon attack each round is great. I wish it had a more versatile spell list, though. Only 4 spells from other lists is some tough choices.

Playing as a half-elf gives good stats and abilities (+2 cha, +1 dex and con) for those characters too. Plus it opens up the Elven Accuracy feat (another +1 to cha and rolling three dice when you have attacks with advantage? On a hexblade that specializes in creating advantage? Oh, yes....

When I compare these example sketch builds to the fighter/rogue and barbarian in the current campaign, they could hold their own in terms of damage. I see what y’all have been saying about the whole system being more balanced.

I have to say, for adding BFC elements, I had totally underestimated the glamour bard (XGtE), too. Being just fabulous is how I usually roleplay bards anyway. Being able to grant everyone in your party a bonus action on your turn, to move their speed is awesome for arranging the battlefield with everyone already in their happy places. And at-will no-spell-slots-used command as a bonus action every turn is damn powerful (especially out of combat, for crowd control, at a party, etc.). And making everyone who chooses to attack you pass a CHA save or go do something else? And if they make the save they still have disadvantage against you. That’s a lot of being left alone to do your thing.

i probably still prefer the valor bard, though.

Sorcadin and abjurer wizard seems good, but I’m not really feeling it. Maybe the RP aspects of hexblade and bard call too strongly to me?

Bladesinger is also good for versatility. It would be fun to play. But It doesn’t seem quite as good as the hexblade or valor bard.

Part of my issue is I’m still figuring out all the demands for concentration. So very many things I’m used to being able to set and forget, now require you to keep focusing on them, and so not on other things.

For that reason, I’m unsure how effective a wizard slinging a new spell each round can be. Havingthe ability to make two weapon attacks in a round, while concentrating on the spell you cast last round seems vital. That’s another point in favor of valor bard and hexblade (with thirsting blade invocation).

Thanks again for all your help, everyone!

[Frogreaver]

I vote hexblade. Use booming blade for melee as needed and eldritch blast from ranged. Use control spells with concentration.

If you want to be able to melee in front line but not all the tome I think this will scratch your itch.

[Unoriginal]

You can still cast other spells while you concentrate on a spell, as long as none of the other spells require concentration.


Also worth noting, a Celestial Pact of the Blade Warlock with Green Flame Blade can be nice.

[solidork]

The other good way to do a warlock gish besides Hexblade is to select Pact of the Tome and choose Shillelagh as one of your bonus cantrips - it will let you use your charisma to attack in melee as long as you're using a staff, and you'd be surprised how many magic staves there are that are good for hitting people with.

I'm currently playing an Eldritch Knight 8/Celestial Tomelock 9 and really enjoying it, but its much more a generalist build than what you seem interested in.

[Skylivedk]

Hexblade tone lock 17 / fighter 2 (or Sorc/Bard 2) can do a lot! The rituals are golden versatility and the 40 times of Scrying (substitute with dream as you see fit) per day is crazy. Force cage is really good in many encounters

[king_steve]

I have to say, the pure hexblade is pretty damn awesome. With the right cantrips, and invocations (especially ones that improve your curse effect), a reach pact weapon, it’s pretty vicious. And it can have some strong social abilities out of combat. More limited casting is tough, in terms of versatility. But recovering spells with a short rest almost makes up for it.


One thing to consider with a Hexblade is that you don't have to take Pact of the Blade, although it has obvious benefits.

You still have martial weapon as a subclass feature you could take something like Pact of the Tome and be an extremely versatile ritual caster with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. Book of Ancient Secretes lets you learn ritual spells from any class list. The Pact of the Tome also lets you pick up 3 additional cantrips from any class list. With Pact of the Tome you have a lot of at will power from cantrips and invocations.

You would still have Booming Blade/GFB as an option if you want to hit something in melee since you won't have access to the extra attack feature. Using Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade does already mean you won't be using your extra attack. I know it was linked on the first page but in the An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23794664&postcount=1) thread Build 1 LudicSavant uses a similar build with the Celestial Patron to have added healing. But either way, Hexblade has a nice spell list and you have options when it comes to which pact you want to take.

[TheMango55]

I have to say, the pure hexblade is pretty damn awesome. With the right cantrips, and invocations (especially ones that improve your curse effect), a reach pact weapon, it’s pretty vicious. And it can have some strong social abilities out of combat. More limited casting is tough, in terms of versatility. But recovering spells with a short rest almost makes up for it.


Yeah a high level Hexblade can be beastly. Especially if you are a half elf.

Take elven accuracy to roll 3 d20s when you have advantage instead of 2, and Foresight as your 9th level spell to have permanent advantage, and with hexblade’s curse giving you an expanded crit range you will have about a 30% chance to crit on each attack. When you do crit you can smite for an extra 12d8 damage.

Also with great weapon master, lifedrinker, and hexblade’s curse you will be getting a flat +26 damage on every single strike, crit or not.

Assuming you do get that high you might want to dip out of Hexblade after level 17, warlock capstone isn’t great. Fighter is always useful for action surge.

[Hiro Quester]

Assuming you do get that high you might want to dip out of Hexblade after level 17, warlock capstone isn’t great. Fighter is always useful for action surge.

I'm thinking combining it with a bit of bard, if I don't go the whole way. Bard 3/Hexblade17 to add some inspiration, more social options, and lower-level spells into the mix (since Warlock spells rise and are all 5th level spells after a while).

Glamour Bard's low-level spells, inspiration, and third level ability to grant all your party 5 temporary hit points, and to take a move action as a reaction on your turn, is really awesome. Plus an enthralling performance after which several people are completely charmed by you and for the next hour are your devoted allies and fans. That will work great for finding out local information and having a lot of fun at parties.

It seems a nice combination of flavor and power. That seems worth trading for a feat at 19 and a 1 minute spell recovery between short rests at 20

I just have to figure out when to intersperse the bard levels, so it does not feel like my abilities are lagging behind too much.

[RSP]

I have to say, the pure hexblade is pretty damn awesome.


Hexblades are a lot fun and can put out good damage while maintaining good versatility.

However, I have found their ability to melee erodes around level 11: enemies will be hitting consistently, and doing high damage when they do hit, and they don’t have enough defense to counter them. At least that’s my experience with a level 13 Hexblade in SKT. Plus, you get more variance in how damage comes (saves/ranged) and Warlocks don’t get other damage mitigation like Absorb Elements.

Armor of Hexes doesn’t cut it (too unreliable and only 1 min max/SR). I guess it may work if doing 1 encounter work days with a lone BBEG, but that’s not how my table plays so I don’t know.

I picked up a Ring of Spell Storing just to get some Shield and AE uses, but there’s only so much that’ll do.

I’ve been doing EB/Repelling Blast for the last couple levels now, as after a few hits get through when meleeing, you need to move back anyway. Plus, once you get used to Repelling Blast, it’s tough to not love it as a superior tactic in combat, but that’s a different issue.

Just my 2 cents but I’ve found it’s a big issue with PotB once you reach that point. For whatever reason, this didn’t seem a problem during 1-10.

Bladesinger, in my experience, best mitigates this with Song of Defense (ability to use spell slots to absorb damage) and probably makes the best higher-level Gish in 5e. But again, just my experience in play so far.

[Makorel]

Valor Bard is really just one good Shadow Blade/Spirit Shroud away from being the perfect gish imo. They can't get those until 10th level unfortunately and until then extra attack with no fighting style isn't a lot to talk about for martial capabilities. Personally it's been a hard sell for me to play one since I've never had a campaign get that high and any dips into other classes would just delay that further.

[Gignere]

Bladesinger, in my experience, best mitigates this with Song of Defense (ability to use spell slots to absorb damage) and probably makes the best higher-level Gish in 5e. But again, just my experience in play so far.

With their new ability to swap out an attack for a cantrip. Bladesingers now have the option to use blade ward to further enhance their survivability. Not only that but it stacks with Song of Defense too.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Part of my issue is I’m still figuring out all the demands for concentration. So very many things I’m used to being able to set and forget, now require you to keep focusing on them, and so not on other things.
Remember--unlike 3.5, concentrating on a spell does not require an action.

[Skylivedk]

Hexblades are a lot fun and can put out good damage while maintaining good versatility.

However, I have found their ability to melee erodes around level 11: enemies will be hitting consistently, and doing high damage when they do hit, and they don’t have enough defense to counter them. At least that’s my experience with a level 13 Hexblade in SKT. Plus, you get more variance in how damage comes (saves/ranged) and Warlocks don’t get other damage mitigation like Absorb Elements.

Armor of Hexes doesn’t cut it (too unreliable and only 1 min max/SR). I guess it may work if doing 1 encounter work days with a lone BBEG, but that’s not how my table plays so I don’t know.

I picked up a Ring of Spell Storing just to get some Shield and AE uses, but there’s only so much that’ll do.

I’ve been doing EB/Repelling Blast for the last couple levels now, as after a few hits get through when meleeing, you need to move back anyway. Plus, once you get used to Repelling Blast, it’s tough to not love it as a superior tactic in combat, but that’s a different issue.

Just my 2 cents but I’ve found it’s a big issue with PotB once you reach that point. For whatever reason, this didn’t seem a problem during 1-10.

Bladesinger, in my experience, best mitigates this with Song of Defense (ability to use spell slots to absorb damage) and probably makes the best higher-level Gish in 5e. But again, just my experience in play so far.

I didn't have that experience at all. The combination of Counterspell, Armor of Agathys, Darkness and Armor of Hexes made my Hexblade extremely tanky. Just AoA will have you rivaling most Martials IMX. By the end of the Rise of Tiamat, I still jumped into dragons and helped them change careers to wall ornament