Changeling - no more +3 CHA

[Wasp]

Sooo... The Changeling has been erratad (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/ERftLW-Errata.pdf) so that they get +1 on "one ability score of your choice” but “one other ability score of your choice” (just like the "standard"). This means it's not possible anymore for a Changeling to get a +3 in Charisma at first level - even though Wizards previously stated this was intentional and supposed to allow Changelings to start at CHA 18 at first level even with point buy / standard array...

I loved this little quirk, so I am a little disappointed. But what do you think; does it make much difference?

[KorvinStarmast]

Sooo... The Changeling has been erratad (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/ERftLW-Errata.pdf) so that they get +1 on "one ability score of your choice” but “one other ability score of your choice” (just like the "standard"). This means it's not possible anymore for a Changeling to get a +3 in Charisma at first level - even though Wizards previously stated this was intentional and supposed to allow Changelings to start at CHA 18 at first level even with point buy / standard array...

I loved this little quirk, so I am a little disappointed. But what do you think; does it make much difference?vGood, that was a FUBAR mistake in the first place. Unless all of the races have that kind of option, it ought not to be on any of them.

Balance, eh?

Here's an idea: give the Dragon born +3 on Str or +3 on Cha. Wouldn't that be fine? Then see how the min / max crowd flock to the forked tongue faction ... with halitosis of varying flavors

[MaxWilson]

Sooo... The Changeling has been erratad (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/ERftLW-Errata.pdf) so that they get +1 on "one ability score of your choice” but “one other ability score of your choice” (just like the "standard"). This means it's not possible anymore for a Changeling to get a +3 in Charisma at first level - even though Wizards previously stated this was intentional and supposed to allow Changelings to start at CHA 18 at first level even with point buy / standard array...

I loved this little quirk, so I am a little disappointed. But what do you think; does it make much difference?

I kind of liked it, but I don't mind it going away. But this is yet another blow to Crawford's credibility. It seems likely that when JeremyCrawford said (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1197377429288783873), "A changeling sure can," this wasn't him speaking out of any special knowledge or rapport with the actual designers (presumably Keith Baker, not sure who else). It was just him reading what happened to be written in the book at the time, and then when the designers came along and said, "Hey, this wasn't intentional," he probably shrugged and was like, "Okay."

Conclusion: don't trust Crawford on RAI, he's clearly not the source.

[JackPhoenix]

I kind of liked it, but I don't mind it going away. But this is yet another blow to Crawford's credibility. It seems likely that when JeremyCrawford said (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1197377429288783873), "A changeling sure can," this wasn't him speaking out of any special knowledge or rapport with the actual designers (presumably Keith Baker, not sure who else). It was just him reading what happened to be written in the book at the time, and then when the designers came along and said, "Hey, this wasn't intentional," he probably shrugged and was like, "Okay."

Conclusion: don't trust Crawford on RAI, he's clearly not the source.

Keith didn't write mechanics, only the lore, if I remember his blog correctly.

In any case, JC didn't say anything about intent, only that the changeling could put the +1 to Cha.... which was undisputably true per RAW. Errata changed the RAW, whatever reason they had for that change.... propably to unify the mechanics with Tasha's racial crap. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see PHB errata changing half-elves and mountain dwarves the same way.

[Cybren]

I kind of liked it, but I don't mind it going away. But this is yet another blow to Crawford's credibility. It seems likely that when JeremyCrawford said (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1197377429288783873), "A changeling sure can," this wasn't him speaking out of any special knowledge or rapport with the actual designers (presumably Keith Baker, not sure who else). It was just him reading what happened to be written in the book at the time, and then when the designers came along and said, "Hey, this wasn't intentional," he probably shrugged and was like, "Okay."

Conclusion: don't trust Crawford on RAI, he's clearly not the source.

I am consistently annoyed with the 5E design team's inability to speak candidly about their intentions with the games design. I will never not hold a tiny grudge in my heart about being told that smites don't count for great weapon fighting because it would "slow the game down too much" to reroll the dice, or being expected to assume magic missile only ever involves a single d4.


vGood, that was a FUBAR mistake in the first place. Unless all of the races have that kind of option, it ought not to be on any of them.

Balance, eh?

Here's an idea: give the Dragon born +3 on Str or +3 on Cha. Wouldn't that be fine? Then see how the min / max crowd flock to the forked tongue faction ... with halitosis of varying flavors

Is this a bad thing? People might actually play a dragonborn then.

[Xervous]

I am consistently annoyed with the 5E design team's inability to speak candidly about their intentions with the games design. I will never not hold a tiny grudge in my heart about being told that smites don't count for great weapon fighting because it would "slow the game down too much" to reroll the dice, or being expected to assume magic missile only ever involves a single d4.



Is this a bad thing? People might actually play a dragonborn then.

I think there’s still trauma from the early 3.5e half dragon everything. Shackled city, that one lake full of half dragon alligators, the umptydozen spawns of Tiamat.

[Corran]

I loved this little quirk, so I am a little disappointed. But what do you think; does it make much difference?
That additional +1 was important enough for certain builds (usually multiclass builds, like bards or sorcerers with a dip in hexblade, where anything but cha is tertiary) on point buy (with rolls it's 50-50), assuming you already like the changeling as your race. Generally though, I think (that at least for me) it's one of these races that when I want to play it, I wont obsess too much if I can boost charisma by 2 or by 3, cause I am more interested in the change appearance aspect anyway. And if the rest stays as it is (ie extra languages and extra skills), then the race remains strong enough to at least consider than just turn to the alternative of halfelf or vhuman with plans for disguise/alter self and potentially the actor feat. So yes, little disappointed too, but no biggie.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is this a bad thing? People might actually play a dragonborn then. I think that a dragonborn is a far better fit for the genre than the Eberron changeling, and would be happy to see that option opened to dragonborn for two reasons.
1, as you say, more people might really go for that race and
2 uh, dragons. :smallbiggrin:

But honestly, if one is going to let one race get that +3 loophole, then every race ought to have that option.

But it's also just fine to not have it at all.

[Amechra]

Is this a bad thing? People might actually play a dragonborn then.

I'm actually in a party where 3 out of the 7 players are playing Dragonborn. None of them are playing classes that really benefit from the stat bonuses (Artificer, Cleric, and Rogue). I think they just wanted to be dragons.

(The Rogue has actually gotten really good use out of acid breath, though.)

EDIT: The rest of the party is a Scourge Aasimar Blood Hunter (who keeps dropping before she can get stuff done), a Dwarf Padlock, and a VHuman Sorlock (me). In my defense, I'm also running a pretty atypical build - the DM keeps thinking that I'm playing a Bard for some reason, and I really only dipped a level in Sorcerer to pick up natural mage armor, Shield, and Con proficiency for my TWF Pact of the Blade Fiendlock.

It's surprisingly fun to play in a game where you can just kinda futz around with your build without worrying about effectiveness.

[Keravath]

Keith didn't write mechanics, only the lore, if I remember his blog correctly.

In any case, JC didn't say anything about intent, only that the changeling could put the +1 to Cha.... which was undisputably true per RAW. Errata changed the RAW, whatever reason they had for that change.... propably to unify the mechanics with Tasha's racial crap. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see PHB errata changing half-elves and mountain dwarves the same way.

Actually, I think that is probably exactly why it was changed. By itself +3 charisma isn't a big deal, it benefits a few builds, makes changeling bard/warlock builds a bit easier, frees up an ASI for charisma builds and lets them get an extra +1 from level 1.

However, combine this with Tasha's and you have a race with a +3 to any stat which suddenly becomes the go to for almost any build with point buy where you want an 18 in a starting stat. For a lot of min/max options, the changeling moves to the top and although +3 charisma may or may not have been intended, +3 to ANY stat to start certainly wasn't so they errata the changeling to bypass the issue.

[Toadkiller]

I have a changeling character I’m playing these days. I skipped the extra +1 for CHA despite playing a warlock as it felt too cheesy. Everyone will see such thing their own way- but I think this is a reasonable update.

[Xervous]

It was an oddball that stuck out given their standard designs. While I disagree with the change I can understand the justification.

[rlc]

Actually, I think that is probably exactly why it was changed. By itself +3 charisma isn't a big deal, it benefits a few builds, makes changeling bard/warlock builds a bit easier, frees up an ASI for charisma builds and lets them get an extra +1 from level 1.

However, combine this with Tasha's and you have a race with a +3 to any stat which suddenly becomes the go to for almost any build with point buy where you want an 18 in a starting stat. For a lot of min/max options, the changeling moves to the top and although +3 charisma may or may not have been intended, +3 to ANY stat to start certainly wasn't so they errata the changeling to bypass the issue.

I believe that Tasha’s rules specifically say that you can’t do +3. So the changeling would’ve been ok, but people would’ve asked why.

[Rara1212]

Actually, I think that is probably exactly why it was changed. By itself +3 charisma isn't a big deal, it benefits a few builds, makes changeling bard/warlock builds a bit easier, frees up an ASI for charisma builds and lets them get an extra +1 from level 1.

However, combine this with Tasha's and you have a race with a +3 to any stat which suddenly becomes the go to for almost any build with point buy where you want an 18 in a starting stat. For a lot of min/max options, the changeling moves to the top and although +3 charisma may or may not have been intended, +3 to ANY stat to start certainly wasn't so they errata the changeling to bypass the issue.

The new char creation rules said you can't put two ability bonuses from race into the same ability. So that was already guarded against.

And anyway, the new custom "race" lets you get a +2 & a feat, that can be a half feat & doesn't have that restriction.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm actually in a party where 3 out of the 7 players are playing Dragonborn. None of them are playing classes that really benefit from the stat bonuses (Artificer, Cleric, and Rogue). I think they just wanted to be dragons.

(The Rogue has actually gotten really good use out of acid breath, though.)

EDIT: The rest of the party is a Scourge Aasimar Blood Hunter (who keeps dropping before she can get stuff done), a Dwarf Padlock, and a VHuman Sorlock (me). In my defense, I'm also running a pretty atypical build - the DM keeps thinking that I'm playing a Bard for some reason, and I really only dipped a level in Sorcerer to pick up natural mage armor, Shield, and Con proficiency for my TWF Pact of the Blade Fiendlock.

It's surprisingly fun to play in a game where you can just kinda futz around with your build without worrying about effectiveness.

Amen. I've had a dragonborn in almost every campaign (teenagers love dragons for some reason). Now I've had a soulforged (warforged knockoff) in every campaign in quite a few. Whether the stats work or not.

And that last sentence is really key. And something overlooked quite a lot.