Intelligent Magic Weapon with a Nonproficient Host?

[unseenmage]

As asked (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24789482&postcount=1811) over in the Q&A thread..

If an Intelligent Magic Weapon successfully gains control of a host who is non proficient with it,

Whose proficiency matters? The item's or the host's? (Assuming that the item could somehow have weapon proficiency at all.)

Our IRL group thinks it hinges on weather winning the Ego score roll is a charm, dominate, or possession effect.

3.x and/or PF answers welcome.

EDIT: Oh yeah, this all came up while pondering the perspective of the int magic weapon as it controls garbage mobs after garbage nonproficient mob desperately trying to find someone capable of legitimately wielding it.

[Thurbane]

I made a thread asking about intelligent item control, and honestly, there is no clear RAW on whether it is a possession, domination or even mind affecting ability.

At my table, we play it as a dominate effect.

[Falontani]

at my table it is full possession like demonic possession in the fiendish codex

[Firebug]

I am writing a book (with loosely 3.5 character mechanics) with an intelligent sword whose previous owner enchanted it with throwing and uses it in a different way than it would prefer. Since its a sword it wants to stab things, not flip end over end through the air. It's pissed.

I hadn't considered non-proficiency though. Looking back over the intelligent items against characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm#itemsAgainstCharacters) on d20srd though, it looks like if the item wins dominance it merely gets concessions and refuses to work with the character. Not dominance like Dominate/Possession. Concessions like: Go over there, Kill that guy, Protect me, Give me away. Though the "Extreme Circumstances" mention it striking at its wielder/allies. But I feel like that is only after multiple failed Ego checks and the item not getting its concessions.

I'd probably just roll high/low to see if it manages to hit.

[Thurbane]

This is the thread I was referencing earlier, took a while to find: Items Against Characters - Mind Affecting? Possession? Other? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601377)

I thin this was one of the better thoughts put forward:


You ever had a friend or aquaintance that, whatever it was he wanted to do, that's what you did when you were together even if you weren't really into it? That's what a failed ego check against an intelligent item is like. Your PC and his item both want to take a different course of action and, because the item has the stronger personality (this time, anyway), you do what it wants unless you're willing to simply part ways with it. It's not that it's beguiled or convinced you to go along with it. It just has such a force of personality that you can't help yourself but to go along with it without an act of willpower.

It's not mind-affecting or possession or it would be called out as such. You can't block it. The egos of most items aren't impressive and they never conflict with their creators so it shouldn't come up terribly often unless the GM puts in an intelligent artifact or intelligent cursed item.

[unseenmage]

...

I thin this was one of the better thoughts put forward:
Sounds exactlyike a charm effect to me. Or a successful diplomancy roll.
Charm is most insidious because you wind up obeying the castor's will because you were made to want to.

As opposed to Dominate where you are forced to against your will.

EDIT
Was item Ego a thing in previous editions? Can we glean any RAI from how it was resolved way back when?

I'm also curious if there is a surviving Rules of the Game article or something that could point us in one direction or another.

[Thurbane]

EDIT
Was item Ego a thing in previous editions? Can we glean any RAI from how it was resolved way back when?

Don't have books in front of me, but 100% was a thing even back in 1E.