Looking for optimization guide for 5th

[Melcar]

Yeah so, out DM has decided that he feels like "starting fresh" and wants to start a 5th ed campaign... I'm against it, but I can choose not to play at least not with him for a good while or choose to get with the program.

Since I know next to nothing about 5th, I'm looking for handbooks, or guides to how to build powerful/ optimized versions of different classes. I'm looking for free guides at this point, and wont be buying any 5th books anytime soon, so for now free online sources is the way to go for me.

So, any suggestion or links would be great!

Thanks!

[MaxWilson]

Yeah so, out DM has decided that he feels like "starting fresh" and wants to start a 5th ed campaign... I'm against it, but I can choose not to play at least not with him for a good while or choose to get with the program.

Since I know next to nothing about 5th, I'm looking for handbooks, or guides to how to build powerful/ optimized versions of different classes. I'm looking for free guides at this point, and wont be buying any 5th books anytime soon, so for now free online sources is the way to go for me.

So, any suggestion or links would be great!

Thanks!

You're looking for this thread (linked from stickied threads at the top of the forum): Guides, Tables, and other useful tools for 5E D&D (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?377491)

[Verble]

It should be said that in general there is less to be optimized in 5th edition than previous additions. Some builds are stronger, but often have limited resources.

[KorvinStarmast]

Since I know next to nothing about 5th, I'm looking for handbooks, or guides to how to build powerful/ optimized versions of different classes. I'm looking for free guides at this point, and wont be buying any 5th books anytime soon, so for now free online sources is the way to go for me.
The Basic Rules are here (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf)
If you have any ability to use the internet, you can also find the SRD, v 5.1, at the WoTC web site. Free also.
NOTE: the feats are not there, and very few of the sub classes.

You can go to D&D Beyond and get some more info.

What kind of role are you looking for: Fighter, Rogue, Spell Caster, what?

A decent character to play for your first one is a Druid, Circle of the Moon, if you don't mind having to manage a full caster's spell slots and spell selection.

A well rounded character is Paladin, any Oath. (Vengeance is one I like since it is all about kicking butt and taking names)

Bard is a full caster: College of Lore Bard's are very versatile.

[ff7hero]

Google "[name of class you'd like to play] [handbook/guide] 5e"

[Gtdead]

I'm guessing you have already found everything that has to do with rules and subclasses/spells/feats since you are asking for optimization guides. In case you haven't 5e wikidot has pretty much everything.

Some food for thought (I am assuming that you transitioned from the 3.5 edition):

1) Damage and defense scaling in this edition is very counterintuitive, coming from 3.5e or Pathfinder. Numerical optimization is very narrow, often requires multiclassing and usually the result isn't amazing. Also due to scaling, and how class/subclass features are gained, multiclass cutoff points are more important than ever. In 3.5, a Barbarian 3/Fighter 3 would work because your BAB would increase normally, giving you extra attacks, and you would get your feats based on build level.

In this edition it doesn't work because feats and extra attacks are class abilities and the same multiclass combination would get neither, because feats need lvl 4 in a class, and extra attack needs lvl 5.

2) Itemization is also completely different. We prefer to assume no items when discussing optimization. This will vary depending on DM but you will quickly notice that "handbook" style guides don't mention items anymore, with few exceptions. There is also the Attunement mechanism that limits how many magic items you can have active on you.

3) Spell scalability has changed completely. Basically every class can heighten their spells (we call it upcasting in this edition) and the spell description explains if and how each spell is affected. Also spell level doesn't determine the DC anymore. A lvl 1 spell has the same DC as a lvl 9. Also spell slots are fewer.

Spellcasters have changed a lot. There isn't any way to get extra spell slots or boost your DC without items and "save or die" have gone extinct. Also now they are limited by Concentration. You can't have more than one concentration effect active on a single character. The only way to bypass this limitation if you want to combo your spells is to either make a Simulacrum of yourself or use a Ring of Spell Storing / Chronurgy Wizard's Arcane Abeyance ability to allow your familiar or another party member to cast the second Concentration spell.

The implication is that while you may find amazing spells and combos, you should temper your expectations because you may never get to use them, even if you reach the appropriate level.
Also keep in mind that Armor doesn't affect spellcasting anymore. If you can make a heavy armor caster, more power to you.

4) Minions are nerfed and the DM has a lot of control over summoning spells. Notable exceptions are Animate Dead, Create Undead and Animate Objects because you have absolute control over what you get. With the "Conjure" line of spells, you only get to choose the CR of the creatures, while the DM chooses the actual monsters that you can summon based on CR.

5) Feats and Attribute Increases have changed dramatically. Feats are now an optional rule (although in discussions we assume that they are allowed) and you have to choose between raising your Attributes or getting a Feat. Also this edition doesn't have +1 feats. The 4 feats that directly affect your damage output are Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master.

6) Actions in combat have changed. Movement is not tied to attack anymore. You can spend your movement however you like. You can move, attack and then move again. These are explained in the basic rules, but as far as optimization is concerned, one of the most important things you can do is to optimize your Bonus Action options. Since you only get one Bonus Action it's extremely difficult to stack effects that are tied to it. The implication is that just like Concentration spells, you should temper your expectations if you find combos that can only be used with the Bonus Action.

7) 5e is balanced around a concept called Bounded Accuracy. This again is counterintuitive. Basically what it means is that the difference between the lowest and highest possible check (abilities checks, skill DCs, AC, Saving Throws, Attack) is very narrow and abilities that give you bonus in these categories are rare. The implication is that every class has a normalized progression and is mostly tied to a mechanism called "proficiency" which increases every 4 levels. For optimization purposes, most abilities that provide an increase in these 5 checks are valuable.

Usually increasing your main stat is very important, but for some builds it may not worth it very much. A good rule of thumb is that for Power Attackers (meaning builds that depend on Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter) and controllers, raising your main stat is extremely important. For builds that don't make use of these abilities, you can get away with leaving it for later.

8) Lastly Advantage/Disadvantage. This ties to #7. Due to the lack of +1 style of increases, this edition has advantage which allows you to roll the die twice and pick the best result (or the worst if you have disadvantage). This effect is fairly significant and some builds scale amazingly well with advantage. It's a good idea to familiarize yourself with how your success chance is affected by this. For example, if you have 50% chance of success, having advantage raises it to 75% while disadvantage decreases it to 25%. This is effectively a +-5.

My suggestion is to start with getting familiar with class/subclass abilities and spells first. Then search for complete builds and try to deconstruct them. I don't have a specific resource in mind, but if you search for a particular class, usually type something like "min/max cleric" for example will get you some results. Also a good place to start is https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds . There are lot of builds to analyze there.

[rlc]

If you want to know the basics of 5e, there’s also a free pdf called the “basic rules.”
Other than that and the stuff everybody else has said, 5e is still fun, even if you don’t bother optimizing, and you can make concepts work, even when they aren’t optimized.

[JackalTornMoons]

Action economy is generally the name of the game as far as optimization goes. Try to be able to do something (useful) with your Bonus Action every turn.

If you want to do optimal damage as a martial character, you'll need feats. For melee, you take Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Master. For ranged (or melee), you want Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter (ideally in combination with the Archery weapon style). Combine these with spells/abilities like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Hexblade's Curse, or Spirit Shroud to really boost your damage.

[Melcar]

First of all, thank you all for your replies.

Now, not wanting to bash on everyone's favorite edition, it would seem, on the face of it, like 5th is an inferior ruleset. What I mean by that is that than what makes 3.5 great is the very thing missing from 5th, namely the endless possibilities and combinations available as a player... I might be alone with that feeling..

Gotta say I'm not sold at all...

But non the less I appreciate all the very good resources you guys have referenced... Its going to take some time diving through it all, but for now, im not psyched! Any suggestions for a die hard fan of 3.5, who is not liking the new rules/game edition?

Thanks

[KorvinStarmast]

Its going to take some time diving through it all, but for now, im not psyched! Any suggestions for a die hard fan of 3.5, who is not liking the new rules/game edition? 0. Get into it, you might be plesantly surprised.

OR
1. Do something else with your free time if that's your attitude - negative. Seriously. (Everyone else is looking forward to having a fun time, why not hop on the band wagon of fun?)

OR

2. Let go of your disappointment and embrace "this new game" and treat it like a new game. Do you like these people who you will be playing with? I'll assume yes.
Now go and play with them, and have fun together. Don't be a Danny Downer who pisses and moans that this edition isn't like some other edition. The people who you are playing with are more important than that.

[Griswold]

Now, not wanting to bash on everyone's favorite edition, it would seem, on the face of it, like 5th is an inferior ruleset. What I mean by that is that than what makes 3.5 great is the very thing missing from 5th, namely the endless possibilities and combinations available as a player... I might be alone with that feeling..

I'm also an experienced 3.5 player and I don't think that's quite a fair description of 5E. Here are a few things to consider:

There are builds that are possible or straightforward in 5E that aren't in 3.5. So in that sense, it has fewer restrictions. You can play a shapeshifter starting at 2nd level (via druid), compared with 6th in 3.5. Playing a gish (by the 3.5 definition) doesn't require a careful path through prestige class dips: just play a swords bard or bladesinger wizard. Paladins, fighters, and other "tier 5" classes are playable 1-20.

There are almost no "trap" options in 5E, whereas more than half of the 3.5 feats and prestige classes are just plain bad, for example. So you don't need as much content to get what you want. There are fewer ways to flat-out break the game, so you don't need to sit down with an agreement that you're not going to abuse planar binding, or anything like that.

Finally, you're viewing from the perspective of 3.5 being "completed," that is, there are no more 3.5 books being published. 5E is still in-progress, so of course it's going to have less content. If you're looking for more, I suggest looking at the Unearthed Arcana content, which is about as canonical to 5E players as Dragon magazine is to players of 3.5

Good luck.

[Gtdead]

First of all, thank you all for your replies.

Now, not wanting to bash on everyone's favorite edition, it would seem, on the face of it, like 5th is an inferior ruleset. What I mean by that is that than what makes 3.5 great is the very thing missing from 5th, namely the endless possibilities and combinations available as a player... I might be alone with that feeling..

Gotta say I'm not sold at all...

But non the less I appreciate all the very good resources you guys have referenced... Its going to take some time diving through it all, but for now, im not psyched! Any suggestions for a die hard fan of 3.5, who is not liking the new rules/game edition?

Thanks

I'm of the same mindset. I loved the freedom 3.5e provided in character creation and I really miss the prestige classes. But it's really easy for new players to get into, which means more opportunities for me to actually play. This was the reason I made the jump in the first place.

[Quietus]

I am also a huge fan of how 3.5 handled, and that will always hold a place in my heart. I loved the crunchy ruleset, book diving through half a dozen sources to do exactly what I wanted, and examining the absurd rule breaks that could happen.

5e is not that. It still has its rule breaks, but WotC has rightfully taken a much slower release schedule, and overall has produced a better balanced game than 5e. It's much more difficult to build a "bad" character in that respect. For a totally new player, my advice would be to pick a single class and stick with it, at least for your first character. In your case, since you like lots of rules, I'd recommend a class that provides more turn-by-turn options, and some resource management. Spellcasters at the top of that list - Wizard, Druid, and Bard. If you want to play something melee, I would recommend a Paladin, or a Fighter (Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight). Rogue would also be good, less for the resource management and more for the variety of abilities you pick up.

3.5 is my baby, but I love 5e. The ruleset is more streamlined, there's not a pile of +2's to figure out - the advantage/disadvantage mechanic is probably my favorite mechanic ever. I suggest going into this with an open mind, truly giving 5e a shot, and just having fun with your friends. Get a feel for how the game plays, see the jumps in capability at level 3, and again at level 5. Make your judgement after you've had your hands in the system for a while, not just through preconceived notions.

[KorvinStarmast]

3.5 is my baby, but I love 5e. The ruleset is more streamlined, there's not a pile of +2's to figure out - the advantage/disadvantage mechanic is probably my favorite mechanic ever. I suggest going into this with an open mind, truly giving 5e a shot, and just having fun with your friends. Get a feel for how the game plays, see the jumps in capability at level 3, and again at level 5. Make your judgement after you've had your hands in the system for a while, not just through preconceived notions.
There's some fine advice, right there. *bravo* Well done. :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

The 4 feats that directly affect your damage output are Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master.

And Mounted Combatant, and Elven Accuracy.

And technically also Savage Attacker but it's garbage.

[Gtdead]

Elemental Adept too. Truthfully I don't know how to characterize this one. It's not bad but no one ever picks it because damage feats for casters are low priority.

[Evaar]

What I mean by that is that than what makes 3.5 great is the very thing missing from 5th, namely the endless possibilities and combinations available as a player... I might be alone with that feeling..


This might be gibberish to you, but as a counterpoint let me point you to this thread:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

Right at the top of the page you'll see some builds that really demonstrate how you can still find remarkable possibilities and combinations for character builds.

[Melcar]

You all bring up some very good points, and naturally I would agree on your advice concerning my attitude. Its just so damn hard. I have ever only played D&D with the 3.X rule-set and while I did play Baldur's Gate I and II, 3.X is all I know. So for me, D&D is 3.X... Playing the game under a different rule-set won't feel like playing D&D to me. We might as well be playing Vampire the Masquerade or Call of Cthulhu... which are both cool games, but they are not what I consider D&D no more than I would fell like 5th is D&D!

I know I'm probably grossly overreacting, but I'm afraid we'll stop playing 3.5, which for me feel like we'll stop playing D&D entirely...

None the less, I really appreciate all the comments and resources mentioned here... they do wonders!

EDIT: I have been watching some "3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; that 3.5 has 100 times more customization options, that combat is more interesting, because of the larger amount of options for your character... Would that be an appropriate estimation or is that a gross mischaracterization?

[OldTrees1]

First of all, thank you all for your replies.

Now, not wanting to bash on everyone's favorite edition, it would seem, on the face of it, like 5th is an inferior ruleset. What I mean by that is that than what makes 3.5 great is the very thing missing from 5th, namely the endless possibilities and combinations available as a player... I might be alone with that feeling..

Gotta say I'm not sold at all...

But non the less I appreciate all the very good resources you guys have referenced... Its going to take some time diving through it all, but for now, im not psyched! Any suggestions for a die hard fan of 3.5, who is not liking the new rules/game edition?

Thanks

A fair criticism of many against 5E. It has innovated some improvements but it is not a strict improvement.

As someone that is a fan of both, I try to work around by biggest criticism of 5E. For me that is the skill system, so I almost always have Expertise (2x proficiency to skill check) in character defining skills. If number of combinations is your biggest criticism, consider a variant human multiclassed warlock (not talking dipping). You will have a feat as a customizable racial feature, 2 classes and 3 subclasses. That should allow a decent amount of combinations.


EDIT: I have been watching some "3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; that 3.5 has 100 times more customization options, that combat is more interesting, because of the larger amount of options for your character... Would that be an appropriate estimation or is that a gross mischaracterization?

Part of 3E's options is the group having 50+ splat books compared to 5E's ~7. Another part is 3E's options were smaller so you could use more of them at the same time. However 5E combat is still interesting because you have a decent amount of options as a floor (and out of combat floor increased in 5E).

[MoiMagnus]

I have been watching some "3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; that 3.5 has 100 times more customization options, that combat is more interesting, because of the larger amount of options for your character... Would that be an appropriate estimation or is that a gross mischaracterization?

In 3.X, I remember that creating the character was easily half of the interest of the game. This mini-game has been removed (more precisely reduced to minima) in 5e. It's not "lacking". It's intentionally removed. And the biggest fragments that remains are optional rules (feats and multiclassing), or outside of the control of the Players (magical objects in the DMG).
[New books progressively add more options to the Player, but publication rate is very slow.]

The mini-game of "personalise the technical properties of your character" as essentially been replaced by "choose your personality traits and background", which target a very different kind of audience.

As for combat, in 3.X. In 3.X (and even more in 4e), combat was a tactical mini-game, where you would probably get your figurines, deal with zone of control, exact positions, ... In my current 5e campaign, we're playing through discord because the DM didn't found any feature useful to him on Roll20, so we just have our character sheet printed, use an online dice roller, and do everything as Theatre of the Mind (except a world map, but that's different).

[TotM is totally doable in 3.X, but TotM is much easier in 5e]

It is correct to say that if you run the same battle in 3.X and in 5e, the battle in 3.X will probably be more interesting (if you're the kind to like 3.X combat, and not the kind to be bored out of the technicalities). Interesting tactical battles in 5e are interesting because of the terrain and the circumstances, rarely because of some shiny power PCs or monsters have.

[MaxWilson]

You all bring up some very good points, and naturally I would agree on your advice concerning my attitude. Its just so ---- hard. I have ever only played D&D with the 3.X rule-set and while I did play Baldur's Gate I and II, 3.X is all I know. So for me, D&D is 3.X... Playing the game under a different rule-set won't feel like playing D&D to me. We might as well be playing Vampire the Masquerade or Call of Cthulhu... which are both cool games, but they are not what I consider D&D no more than I would fell like 5th is D&D!

I know I'm probably grossly overreacting, but I'm afraid we'll stop playing 3.5, which for me feel like we'll stop playing D&D entirely...

None the less, I really appreciate all the comments and resources mentioned here... they do wonders!

EDIT: I have been watching some "3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; that 3.5 has 100 times more customization options, that combat is more interesting, because of the larger amount of options for your character... Would that be an appropriate estimation or is that a gross mischaracterization?

Heh. I feel the same way about 5E, relative to TSR (A)D&D. It's not really the same game, it just shares the same brand.

To be fair, 5E does have more in common with (A)D&D than it does with GURPS or Shadowrun, e.g. it's still a class-based level advancement system and Fireball is still a good spell for clearing mobs of weak monsters. But in other ways it feels more like Marvel Superheroes a.k.a. FASERIP, e.g. die variance often has more weight on outcome variance than skill or situational bonuses, and almost nothing physically bad can happen to you that lasts for more than a few hours. It's mechanically intricate but not really grounded in mythology or even fantasy fiction--WotC's corporate DNA as a collectible card game maker is quite obvious in the product. Magic tends to be of the "accumulate numerical combat bonuses" type as opposed to the "break one rule of the universe in an interesting way" type. Etc.

Anyway, if you want to keep playing 3.5 there are billions of people on this planet, and I assume at least a few tens of thousands of them enjoy 3.5E.

However I would say that combat is the most interesting thing about 5E, so if that's what you're looking for maybe look deeper. (And don't ever play AD&D--combat isn't quite an afterthought but it's designed to be fast and fairly simple, except for where spells break the rules.)

[JNAProductions]

EDIT: I have been watching some "3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; that 3.5 has 100 times more customization options, that combat is more interesting, because of the larger amount of options for your character... Would that be an appropriate estimation or is that a gross mischaracterization?

3.5 has more customization, that is true.

I would argue that combat isn't always going to be more interesting, though-your Leap Attack/Shock Trooper Fighter won't be grappling, or tripping, or anything besides charging and full attacking for big numbers. Whereas in 5E, anyone can grapple effectively with nothing more than a good Strength score, or shove someone prone, or shove them into a hazard.

5E, to me, achieves what it sets out to do a lot better than 3.5. 5E is mostly well-balanced, there are few traps and virtually no way to make a character that's truly incompetent without very deliberately trying. It's much simpler than 3.5 and 4E (though definitely still a crunch-heavy system) and it is, in general, pretty intuitive. If, once you have a decent grasp of it, you guess at a rule without looking up, you'll usually be right.

I do enjoy 3.5, but it's not as good as 5E, to me. You may feel different-and that's fine. But I'll echo the thought of "If you're gonna play in it, play with a good attitude." Don't go in expecting to hate it, because then you'll hate it. And if, once you've looked over the books and character options and all that, you really don't like it, not even enough to try it... Tell your friends that, and wish them the best of times with 5E, but don't participate.

[Melcar]

"If you're gonna play in it, play with a good attitude." Don't go in expecting to hate it, because then you'll hate it. And if, once you've looked over the books and character options and all that, you really don't like it, not even enough to try it... Tell your friends that, and wish them the best of times with 5E, but don't participate.

Indeed, you are all very right in saying that I should have a positive mindset when sitting down at the table... if not I should simple not participate. I completely agree, and right now, I'm contemplating namely that - whether or not to actually participate - it was for that particular reason I asked for help here... (They are some very close high-school friends, from 20 years ago, so I want to hang out... with everybody having kids and wives, its not that often we do see each other, so I wouldn't want to be a negative addition to the group).

However, as far as I can tell, I'm going to hate it! I haven't been through all the stuff you guys have kindly sent me yet, so can't be 100% sure yet, but on the face of it, all the things I specifically love about 3.5 are gone. Some 5e mechanics might be great by them selves, but as I previously stated, for me, D&D is 3.5... and at this point I'd rather play Vampire or some other RPG, than play a "wrong" kind of D&D... So, I haven't made up my mind yet...

But, again I want to thank you all for your help! Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

. So for me, D&D is 3.X... Playing the game under a different rule-set won't feel like playing D&D to me. We might as well be playing Vampire the Masquerade or Call of Cthulhu... which are both cool games, but they are not what I consider D&D no more than I would fell like 5th is D&D!
Some of the grognards who preferred Original D&D and AD&D said the same thing about WoTC D&D. You really want to take that position? Recommend against.


"3.5 vs 5th" videos on YT, and they all seem to elude to the same thing; They allude to the same thing. Elude is (roughly) a synonym for evade, and allude means roughly 'make reference to' or 'point to'

That's today's free vocabulary assist. You now have advantage on your next vocabulary skill check ... :smallbiggrin:

As to "gross mischaracterization" there also aren't trap options in 5, as there were in 3.5, and the delta between 'most powerful' and 'least powerful' is substantially less.

At high tier play, however, it seems that spell casters still have a little bit of that "quadratic wizard/linear fighter' thing going on that's been in the game since way back.

[Melcar]

Some of the grognards who preferred Original D&D and AD&D said the same thing about WoTC D&D. You really want to take that position? Recommend against.

Its not that I want to take that stance, its the way I feel right now... I'm obviously trying (possibly failing) to have an open mind, or else I wouldn't be here asking questions...


They allude to the same thing. Elude is (roughly) a synonym for evade, and allude means roughly 'make reference to' or 'point to'

That's today's free vocabulary assist. You now have advantage on your next vocabulary skill check ... :smallbiggrin:

English is not my first language so...


As to "gross mischaracterization" there also aren't trap options in 5, as there were in 3.5, and the delta between 'most powerful' and 'least powerful' is substantially less.

While that might be true, I'm not concerned with traps, as I've ever only been playing D&D using 3.X and have been doing so non stop since 2000... So I am fairly quickly able to discern traps... I also have never had a problem with the balance issues... I would have liked mundanes to have more and better options in general, but we usually fix balancing issues inhouse. That isn't to say that its not a mechanical issue - or flaw in the game design - its just that we have been able to work around it with a few house-rules or gentlemen-agreements that has made everyone happy...

[KorvinStarmast]

Its not that I want to take that stance, its the way I feel right now... I'm obviously trying (possibly failing) to have an open mind, or else I wouldn't be here asking questions...
Which goes back to my original suggestion; just embrace the new game with the rest of the table, and don't look back. It took me a few sessions to get into that mind set when I started with this edition. (5e) I had to finally just say "forget what I know about past D&D, and just immerse self in this one." Worked a lot better. (Though as a DM I still use 2d6 for reaction rolls in social situations, which is Old Old school ...)

English is not my first language so...
So I was helping you out, I hope. They do sound very similar to each other the way that most people say them.

I would have liked mundanes to have more and better options in general, but we usually fix balancing issues inhouse. That isn't to say that its not a mechanical issue - or flaw in the game design - its just that we have been able to work around it with a few house-rules or gentlemen-agreements that has made everyone happy... For my money, Battle Master, Fighter, is a nice mundane class that has the option of swapping in/out various maneuvers as you go up in level.

[Melcar]

Which goes back to my original suggestion; just embrace the new game with the rest of the table, and don't look back. It took me a few sessions to get into that mind set when I started with this edition. (5e) I had to finally just say "forget what I know about past D&D, and just immerse self in this one." Worked a lot better. (Though as a DM I still use 2d6 for reaction rolls in social situations, which is Old Old school ...)

Its not that simple... D&D is my favorite game, and the rules (i.e. 3.5) are a very large part of that... I mean I can role play in any RPG, but I want to role play using 3.5 rules. You are basically telling me to quit my favorite pastime... I have been playing golf too for about 25 years and have spent thousands of dollars on equipment lessons, membership, greenfee, and countless hours practicing and playing, eventually getting pretty good at it... if someone told me to just "embrace hockey or some other hit ball with stick" sport and forget about golf, I would tell them to go #¤%& themselves...

I do however understand the reason behind the sentiment, but its not that easy for me to just stop playing my favorite game of all time... :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

Its not that simple... D&D is my favorite game, and the rules (specifically 3.5) are a very large part of that... I mean I can role play in any RPG, but I want to role play using 3.5 rules. You are basically telling me to quit my favorite pastime... I have been playing golf too for about 25 years and have spent thousands of dollars on equipment lessons, membership, greenfee, and countless hours practicing and playing, eventually getting pretty good at it... if someone told me to just "embrace hockey or some other hit ball with stick" sport and forget about golf, I would tell them to go #¤%& themselves...

I do however understand the reason behind the sentiment, but its not that easy for me to just stop playing my favorite game of all time... :smallsmile:

Well then, don't. 3.5 and 5E are not the same game. If you want to keep playing 3.5, do so.

[Melcar]

Well then, don't. 3.5 and 5E are not the same game. If you want to keep playing 3.5, do so.

Right, I was simply just stating that I have a hard time figuring out what to do here... and that I don't think its easy to just stop playing once's favorite game... But the thread was about build guides and people were kind to supply precisely that... so now I have a lot of reading to do...

Again, thanks to all who have helped, commented and listened to my ramblings! :smallredface:

[Evaar]

I get where you're coming from. I'm the weirdo who liked 4th edition. I loved how tactical the combat felt, and how each class had its own theme outside of the individual powers that you could find if you looked, and if you built into that theme you'd see your power really take off.

And 5th felt a little too sparse for me at first. Like it just takes a minute to slap together a character sheet now, and I was used to all the fine-tuning and picking multiple options per level.

And I left 4th edition with a lot of things unplayed that I really wanted to play. I never really got to play my Archlich Swordmage.

5th Edition rips off a lot of band-aids, though, and ultimately it feels good to be rid of them. I find there's actually more flexibility here than in having a ton of options, because there's more encouragement to try novel stuff. In a recent session I did a running jump (while enchanted with the Jump spell for 3x distance) off a T-Rex head to make it onto a platform so I could attack a Beholder. In the same session I got polymorphed into a Giant Ape, still enchanted with Jump, launched myself into the air to grab said Beholder who was flying up to the ceiling, successfully grabbed him mid-air and dragged him back down to the ground for the rest of my party to beat on. And any character could pull those things off if the party is using its tools well.

[Lorka]

It sounds like you haven’t read the rules, nor played a single game of 5e.

Maybe try giving the game a chance and then decide if you like it or not.

If you want optimization describe a character you want to build, you will get a lot of help here and on r/3d6 on how to build that.

[Melcar]

It sounds like you haven’t read the rules, nor played a single game of 5e.

Maybe try giving the game a chance and then decide if you like it or not.

If you want optimization describe a character you want to build, you will get a lot of help here and on r/3d6 on how to build that.

Indeed I haven't... Its solely because my DM want to try 5th I'm here. As I've mentioned here I really don't want to change, I don't feel like managing a new rule-set and the rules I have read so far I don't like... I just really don't want to change how I play D&D...

But, I'm still undecided on whether I will be participating. If I can manage to not be overtly negative the entire time, I'll give it a go, but right now, I'm planning to sit it over... But we wont be playing this side of Christmas, so I don't have to rush the decision making... Also, he wants to start at level 1... I don't enjoy low level play very much... I personally prefer level 15+ or epic level play... so there's that too...

[rlc]

Indeed I haven't... Its solely because my DM want to try 5th I'm here. As I've mentioned here I really don't want to change, I don't feel like managing a new rule-set and the rules I have read so far I don't like... I just really don't want to change how I play D&D...

But, I'm still undecided on whether I will be participating. If I can manage to not be overtly negative the entire time, I'll give it a go, but right now, I'm planning to sit it over... But we wont be playing this side of Christmas, so I don't have to rush the decision making... Also, he wants to start at level 1... I don't enjoy low level play very much... I personally prefer level 15+ or epic level play... so there's that too...

5e is honestly great for low level play, too, because a lot of character options are front loaded.

[Snivlem]

I'm not trying to be mean, but to be honest, you sound like a big baby.

So your friends for 20 years want to branch out and try a different game ? Bo-hoo. Cry me a river... If this is how you react to change in life proper, you'll have problems.

Get over yourself and get a grip. Go have fun with your friends. 3.5 might very well be your prefered system, but the "system" is such a small part of what makes roleplaying fun,isn't it?

No one is asking you to give up your favoirite past-time, your buddies are just asking you to try doing it in a slightly different way. 3.5 is no more d&d proper than 2nd edition, ad&d etc. was. The game has evolved and will continue to evolve. There was a time when i didn't want to move away from ad&d, boy am I glad now the game has moved on from there.


With that out of the system: I suggest you try one of the combinations of the sorlock /paladin/hexblade builds, it is the closest thing this game offers to the complicated combinations of 3.5 builds. There should be a guide or more in the links provided above.

[MaxWilson]

But, I'm still undecided on whether I will be participating. If I can manage to not be overtly negative the entire time, I'll give it a go, but right now, I'm planning to sit it over... But we wont be playing this side of Christmas, so I don't have to rush the decision making... Also, he wants to start at level 1... I don't enjoy low level play very much... I personally prefer level 15+ or epic level play... so there's that too...

Sounds like you want to play Axis and Allies (complex boardgame with crushingly-dominant strategies that have to be nerfed to make the game fun) and your DM wants to play Checkers (simple boardgame with deep strategies). The chance of low-level 5E being fun for you is non-zero but the chance of it being fun for you in the same way as high-level 3.5 is zero. Checkers and Axis and Allies do not scratch the same itch.

[KorvinStarmast]

Its not that simple... D&D is my favorite game, and the rules (i.e. 3.5) are a very large part of that... Funny, I started playing golf in the 80's, and I've spent way too much on it as well. But the rules haven't changed, much, until recently. And I still play, though not as much as I once did.

D&D 5e is still recognizably D&D. The hockey/golf analogy doesn't fit.

I do however understand the reason behind the sentiment, but its not that easy for me to just stop playing my favorite game of all time... :smallsmile: My sugestion is to focus on the people with whom you are playing; which is why you are in that particular group, and not choosing to play with a different group of people who are playing your favorite edition.

There's a nice golf analogy for that bit; I played golf competitively for a bit (not professionally, mind you, but in leagues, monthly tournaments at the club, various charity events where you try to win prizes, 9-hole scrambles once a week with a cash pot/skins game). That's golf in one context.

There is also leisure, social golf, where there is no money bet on any hole. Same game, but the focus on the latter is the people you are playing with; the focus on the former is the competition. And sometimes you have to really know the rules to get, or not get, that one or two stroke penalty assessed.

Maybe looking at it that way will be useful for framing your upcoming game sessions ...

But we wont be playing this side of Christmas, so I don't have to rush the decision making... We Are Here For You! Plenty of time to come up with a few builds, plans, that you can make fit to your situation. You came to a good place! :smallbiggrin:

Also, he wants to start at level 1... I don't enjoy low level play very much... I personally prefer level 15+ or epic level play... so there's that too... Ooh, this might be a tougher obstacle to overcome, in terms of what your expectations are.
On the one side, level advancement can be reasonbly quick; on the other hand, Play at levels 11 - 15 begins to get a lot different as various magical powers interact.

Once your group gets used to the edition, you may want to ask the DM about a high level one-shot.