Firearms 5e Help

[blackjack50]

I am running a One Shot that has a setting similar to the American Frontier in the 1700s. So there will be muzzle loading firearms (flintlock muskets, blunderbusses, flintlock rifles, flintlock pistols, and so on). I am trying to figure out why my players would pick this over other options (crossbows/bows). I have the following list:

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/fighter:gunslinger:firearm-properties

The One Shot has them traveling up a river to check on an outpost that has lost communication. It will be a more difficult survival type game. So that is something I am looking forward to running (exhaustion, difficult terrain, survival checks [based on player decisions], shelter, and then throw in the enemies). I am trying to figure out what to do with firearms so as to provide the players a REASON to take them. So that being said I will lay out some information for "real life."

1) Training. It is much easier to train a simple soldier to wield these than a bow or a sword.
2) They pierce armor much more effectively.
3) Can be turned in to an effective melee weapon with a bayonet.
4) Longer range.
5) Physically less demanding.

So what do yall think? What can I do to show this in game? I don't like forcing players to use certain weapons, but it is the concept of this game. They will be hunting for game. Should I buff damage? I know several enemies will be using muskets.

[Zhorn]

Cut out that misfire mechanic.
I know folks love to grab Mercer's gunslinger weapon table, but that mechanic is a deterrent if you want players to be drawn towards using firearms in game.

Another thing I trialled a while back with firearms in my own game is to implement the exploding dice mechanic, only I set it for low numbers instead of high numbers. examples:

exploding (1): when you roll a 1 on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

exploding (2): when you roll a 2 or lower on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

This was just tacked on to the pistol (1) and musket (2) from the DMG.
This was to offset the deterrent of using loud weapons with more exotic components (smokepowder not being an easy thing to find).

[Telwar]

The reasons gunpowder won out over crossbows was that gunpowder was loud (and scary) and not dependent on the user's muscle power nearly as much as a longbow or even a crossbow, since a fatigued archer can't achieve the range as a fresh archer can.

Bear in mind that the fatigue rules in 5e are a) deadly and b) do not get incurred as a result of combats normally, so there's no disincentive to use bows or crossbows.

Also, heavy crossbow rates of fire in 5e are far higher than they were in real life. The loading property limits them to one attack per turn, which is still 10/minute.

As such, there is really no reason to have firearms with long load times. Give them the loading property, and the same damage as equivalent crossbows. Once your characters have Extra Attack, they can either draw another pistol with their item interaction or stab someone with a bayonet or club them with the end of the rifle, or take a feat that lets them reload faster like Crossbow Expert.

[Tvtyrant]

I am running a One Shot that has a setting similar to the American Frontier in the 1700s. So there will be muzzle loading firearms (flintlock muskets, blunderbusses, flintlock rifles, flintlock pistols, and so on). I am trying to figure out why my players would pick this over other options (crossbows/bows). I have the following list:

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/fighter:gunslinger:firearm-properties

The One Shot has them traveling up a river to check on an outpost that has lost communication. It will be a more difficult survival type game. So that is something I am looking forward to running (exhaustion, difficult terrain, survival checks [based on player decisions], shelter, and then throw in the enemies). I am trying to figure out what to do with firearms so as to provide the players a REASON to take them. So that being said I will lay out some information for "real life."

1) Training. It is much easier to train a simple soldier to wield these than a bow or a sword.
2) They pierce armor much more effectively.
3) Can be turned in to an effective melee weapon with a bayonet.
4) Longer range.
5) Physically less demanding.

So what do yall think? What can I do to show this in game? I don't like forcing players to use certain weapons, but it is the concept of this game. They will be hunting for game. Should I buff damage? I know several enemies will be using muskets.

Depends on what kind of effect you are looking for. Before revolvers you got one shot in melee and then attacked with a bayonet or sword, so making them 1/encounter and quite potent is accurate. Everyone shoots once and then charges in, maybe the Rogue can swap pistols each turn and fire a bunch of pre-loaded guns if they want to be gun based.

Or you can make them similar to how the game does crossbows.

[blackjack50]

Depends on what kind of effect you are looking for. Before revolvers you got one shot in melee and then attacked with a bayonet or sword, so making them 1/encounter and quite potent is accurate. Everyone shoots once and then charges in, maybe the Rogue can swap pistols each turn and fire a bunch of pre-loaded guns if they want to be gun based.

Or you can make them similar to how the game does crossbows.

Well, back in frontier days it was common for a frontiersman to have a few things:

Rifle, 1-2 pistols, and a knife.

This what they would have fought with. Given 5e rules, reloading is quicker and easier.

[blackjack50]

Cut out that misfire mechanic.
I know folks love to grab Mercer's gunslinger weapon table, but that mechanic is a deterrent if you want players to be drawn towards using firearms in game.

Another thing I trialled a while back with firearms in my own game is to implement the exploding dice mechanic, only I set it for low numbers instead of high numbers. examples:

exploding (1): when you roll a 1 on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

exploding (2): when you roll a 2 or lower on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

This was just tacked on to the pistol (1) and musket (2) from the DMG.
This was to offset the deterrent of using loud weapons with more exotic components (smokepowder not being an easy thing to find).

What would be the point of the exploding mechanic? Is that to make sure damage is significant still?

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, back in frontier days it was common for a frontiersman to have a few things:

Rifle, 1-2 pistols, and a knife. But they were not fighting kobolds, were they? And Ghouls? And shadows? And bulettes?

A major reason that the frontiersman had a musket (and later a rifle) was for hunting game to feed themselves and for pelts. A bit later, the Mountain Men used traps, knives, rifles, pistols, whatever, to live off the land.

Suggest you read up on the Lewis and Clark expedition. (Ambrose's Undaunted Courage is a pretty good coverage of that). Combat was the exception, not the rule.

For easier reading, Louis L'Amour wrote some pretty good (and well researched) stories of the frontier times (Far Blue Mountains is but one of them).

Also, the frontiersmen (Boone, as an example) covered the Exploration Pillar a lot more heavily than the typical 5e campaign does. See also the journals left by the French fur trappers up in Canada and what is now the upper midwest of the US.

And for that matter, you may need a different game system than D&D 5e for that kind of adventure, and that kind of feel.

[Zhorn]

What would be the point of the exploding mechanic? Is that to make sure damage is significant still?
It was used to push up the damage minimums, but be less impactful than being a +1.
The two main hurdles with firearms when compared to bows/crossbows is the noise, and the complexity of supplying ammo.
This was for a Forgotten Realms game, so getting a supply of smokepowder took some effort, where as arrows and bolts were obtainable everywhere. In a frontier setting such as yours this could be less of a factor.
The other part being noise; sneaking around a dungeon, traversing hostile lands, or approaching an enemy encampments is much trickier when your weapons are letting off a loud bang on each attack.
Combine those factors with the base damage of firearms in the DMG and players would just opt for bows/crossbows.
Upping the damage makes firearms more appealing, but if you increase it too much, then anyone not using them feels needlessly handicapped in turn.
The exploding dice mechanic flipped to work off lower values struck a nice middle ground, better damage minimums made the exchange in convenience feel worth while, but damage maximums were still close enough that those not using them were not feeling useless in comparison.

There was discussions about making pistols 2d4 and muskets 2d6, but that reduced the likelihoods of max damage which my players were saying they were not fond of.

[Grey Watcher]

Cut out that misfire mechanic.
I know folks love to grab Mercer's gunslinger weapon table, but that mechanic is a deterrent if you want players to be drawn towards using firearms in game.

Another thing I trialled a while back with firearms in my own game is to implement the exploding dice mechanic, only I set it for low numbers instead of high numbers. examples:

exploding (1): when you roll a 1 on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

exploding (2): when you roll a 2 or lower on the weapon's damage dice, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the damage of the hit.

This was just tacked on to the pistol (1) and musket (2) from the DMG.
This was to offset the deterrent of using loud weapons with more exotic components (smokepowder not being an easy thing to find).

By the way, is that 1 or 2 on a given die or a total of 1 or 2? That is, if you had a firearm that was 2d4, Exploding (2), would you reroll if either die was a 1 or 2 or only if both dice were 1 (for a total of 2)? I strongly suspect you mean the latter, but figured I'd confirm.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, back in frontier days it was common for a frontiersman to have a few things:

Rifle, 1-2 pistols, and a knife.

This what they would have fought with. Given 5e rules, reloading is quicker and easier.

Frontier days with rifles is only about 500 years into the development of gunpowder. Depending on which style you are going for they might be shooting darts out of wood tubes.

Personally I would go for something like
2d6 damage
Recharge on 6+
Hit target has disadvantage until your next turn.

Now it works like Sixteen and Seventeenth Century pirates; fire into the enemy and then swashbuckle.

[Zhorn]

By the way, is that 1 or 2 on a given die or a total of 1 or 2? That is, if you had a firearm that was 2d4, Exploding (2), would you reroll if either die was a 1 or 2 or only if both dice were 1 (for a total of 2)? I strongly suspect you mean the latter, but figured I'd confirm.
Not a reroll, an extra dice
And it is triggered when the individual dice roll is that number or lower, so Exploding (2) triggers on die rolls of 1's and 2's.

I went with exploding on larger die sizes INSTEAD of multiple smaller dices intentionally, as exploding gets stronger on the smaller dice you put it on.

Exploding (1) on a d10 is 1/10 of the time
Exploding (2) on a d12 is 1/6 of the time
but
Exploding (1) on a d4 is 1/4 of the time
Exploding (2) on a d4 is 1/2 of the time

If I changed the DMG firearms to 2d4 and 2d6, I would have not used Exploding (unless it was as a mechanic on a magic item).

As it was a homebrew mechanic being implemented on a more common / no magical level, I tried to be a little restrained on it, as I don't want to get into that power creep situation where everything added to the game has to be better than everything already existing to the point that the previously existing things are no longer any good in comparison.