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littlechicory
2007-11-04, 02:05 AM
My DM and I had a disagreement over the size of a Large (young adult) green dragon's head (which I wanted to take back to town as proof that we'd killed the dragon). He insisted on it being 600 lbs and about the size of the table we were playing at. I argued that my Monster Manual said an elephant was Huge, therefore the dragon's head would be smaller than an elephant's head, which is certainly smaller than the table we were playing at, and therefore small enough for my fighter to manage it okay.

It's moot now, because in the aftermath a couple of giants forced us to abandon the kill, but I asked about this over on LiveJournal, and someone said the size standards for Large and Huge size catagories might have been changed in the Errata, and that a young adult green dragon was (according to the Draconomicon) 31 feet from nose to tail.

Have the creature sizes, in fact, been changed from what was in my MM? Does anyone have an answer for how large the dragon's head might have been? I'm starting to think the DM might not have been as much in the wrong as I thought he was.

Temp
2007-11-04, 02:09 AM
Have the creature sizes, in fact, been changed from what was in my MM? Does anyone have an answer for how large the dragon's head might have been? I'm starting to think the DM might not have been as much in the wrong as I thought he was.
Nope. Young Adult=Large=Not as big as your table. Unless the DM says otherwise.

If the DM insists, just go with it rather than arguing. You might roll your eyes, but the game will probably be more fun overall.

Dhavaer
2007-11-04, 02:18 AM
Well, horses are Large. Dragons are about the same shape as horses. So it'd be no more than twice the size of a horse head, plus spikes.

The_Snark
2007-11-04, 03:01 AM
That said, twice as large means about four to eight times as bulky. Could be heavy.

And a Large greed dragon is listed as being thirty feet long, maximum, in the Draconomicon, but only when stretched tip to tail. The body, tail, and neck+head cover about 10 feet each. It's not an errata to the sizes, just specifically listed sizes for dragons...

... and that's the very maximum for a Large green dragon, one that's right on the edge of being Huge. The average young adult will be smaller. Does seem a bit too large for Large, though.

Townopolis
2007-11-04, 03:06 AM
Maybe those green dragons have Mighty Build?

The head should be no bigger than double a horse's, as mentioned before. About the size of a camping backpack, you can lash it to your back in the same way for transport too.

[Edit] With enough rope.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-04, 03:38 AM
Hmm.

Dragon is a Large creature. Head should therefore be a Small object(reference how a Medium Monk's fists and feet are "Tiny" weapons, and the head is also under 2 feet, which is the minimum required for an object to be Small). Largest a Small object can be is 4'*4'*4', which is still a fairly sizable cube(almost a character's whole combat space). A Google search shows that women's bone density is somewhere around 3.11 g/cm3. Dragons are supposed to be "lighter than a purely terrestrial creature of their size". Let's just say that some of it is in the muscles(ie, they are more efficient, rather than bulkier, sort of like how the Ethiopians and Kenyans have very slim legs but can run really fast), and some of it is in the bones. So we estimate it's a flat 3 g/cm3. A 4' cube is 48*2.54=121.92 cm to a side. Cubing that, 1812278.181888 cm3. Multiply by 3. 5436834.545664 grams. Divide by 1000, it's 5436.834 kg. Multiply by 2.24. 12178 lb. That's almost 6 tons. Of course, that's for a solid cube of bone. The whole head itself probably only makes up half of that volume(look at it as a diagonal cut across the tube, due to the conical shape of the head), so now we're down to 3 tons(6000 lb). Subtract about 90% of that volume, to represent just the skull, teeth, jawbone and horns(minus scales, muscles, eyes, tongue, brain). 6000*.01= 600 lb. Just for the skull. Your DM is about right. With all the other stuff, it would be pushing 1000.

vrellum
2007-11-04, 04:15 AM
It depends a lot on how big the large dragon was. I think large ranges from around 800 to 8000 pounds. At the of the top range, I would say 600 pounds is a little too heavy, but acceptable. Near the bottom of the range, its obviously way too much...

Iku Rex
2007-11-04, 04:46 AM
Let's try a different approach.


A human head is about 8% of the total body mass (http://danny.oz.au/anthropology/notes/human-head-weight.html). Now as far as I know humans have big heads compared to most animals, with heavy skulls. On the other hand a blue dragon's head has a "massive horn", "rows of hornlets", lots of big teeth and hard scales (Draconomicon 38). Let's say 15% to make sure we're on the safe side.

According to the Draconomicon (page 39) a Large blue dragon is 2500. lb (+/- 25%). A Young Adult Blue Dragon is older and presumably bigger than a Juvenile, also Large, so around 3000 lb. seems reasonable. (4000 lb. is the general limit for Large creatures - MM page 314, no errata.)

3000 x 0,15 = 450 lb.

It could easily be less, but if the DM wanted a large Large dragon, 600 lb. wasn't that far off.

daggaz
2007-11-04, 07:38 AM
Dude, the head might be full of scales and such, but so is the rest of the body. And that is the point, humans have HUGE heads compared to their bodies. Look at the average picture of a dragon... how many heads will it take to fill up their dinosauresque bodies? Lots and lots and lots. How many heads for a human? Maybe ten or fifteen or so, for your average not overweight fellow.

I would go with the handwaving gesture, make it twice as big as a horse head, and plenty heavy.