Need help with two weapon fighting rules.

[mortetm]

Hey guys! I need someone to help me understand two-weapon fighting rules.

The improved two-weapon fighting feat says the following: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit with a penalty of -5. See Table 8-10, p160.
The character in question has two attacks per round (BAB +6/+1), has a light off-hand weapon, and two-weapon fighting feat. That gives them a penalty of -2/-2/-2.

They want to take the improved two-weapon fighting.

My original ruling is that the attacks would, in this case, have penalties of -2/-2/-2/-7, their two normal attacks at -2, their first off-hand weapon at standard -2, then the second off-hand attack (from the improved TWF feat) at -7.

The player sees it as follows: based on the very limited information on ITWF you can see below, instead of -10 base penalty for normal two-weapon fighting with a non-light off-hand weapon, the penalty for this attack is -5. With the off-hand being light, instead of -10 being halved to -5 (which is the only way that the -5 referring to the table makes sense), the penalty is -8 halved to -4 due to the off-hand weapon being light. This brings their attacks to -2/-2/-2/-4.

Which ruling is correct here?

Thanks!

[H_H_F_F]

Neither, I believe.

(unless I misunderstood you - tell me if I did.)

TWF gives you an extra attack at your full BAB, in exchange for a -2 penalty to all your attacks. So, if I had TWF, a light weapon, 11 BAB, and another +5 to attacks from other sources, My attacks (with OH signifying off-hand attacks) would be: +14/14(OH)/9/4. If I had Improved TWF, I would get a second extra attack, not with my full BAB but woth a penalty of 5. My attacks would be: +14/14(OH)/9/9(OH)/4. If I had GTWF, they would be: +14/14(OH)/9/9(OH)/4/4(OH).

The "-5" section in ITWF refers to the fact that the second extra attack you get isn't at your full BAB, but 5 lower than that - just like with your main weapon hand.

Does that answer your question?

[Remuko]

Neither, I believe.

(unless I misunderstood you - tell me if I did.)

TWF gives you an extra attack at your full BAB, in exchange for a -2 penalty to all your attacks. So, if I had TWF, a light weapon, 11 BAB, and another +5 to attacks from other sources, My attacks (with OH signifying off-hand attacks) would be: +14/14(OH)/9/4. If I had Improved TWF, I would get a second extra attack, not with my full BAB but woth a penalty of 5. My attacks would be: +14/14(OH)/9/9(OH)/4. If I had GTWF, they would be: +14/14(OH)/9/9(OH)/4/4(OH).

The "-5" section in ITWF refers to the fact that the second extra attack you get isn't at your full BAB, but 5 lower than that - just like with your main weapon hand.

Does that answer your question?

As far as I understand it H_H_F_F is correct here OP.

[Aracor]

H_H_F_F is correct. In your specific example, your player's attack routine with just Two Weapon Fighting is:

+4(MH)/+4(OH)/-1(MH)

I'm honestly not sure where you're getting -2/-2/-2, unless you're just notating it oddly.

If they grab Improved Two Weapon Fighting, their full attack routine would be:

+4(MH)/+4(OH)/-1(MH)/-1(OH)

Obviously plus whatever other bonuses they have from stats, weapons, other feats, and anything else.

However, I'm going to make a radical suggestion:

Remove the Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats. Give their benefits automatically once they reach the prerequisites instead. To support rangers who take that, allow them to use their Combat Style for any other feat that has Two Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite (such as Two Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Rend, Double Hit, etc). Or you can just let them take any fighter bonus feat, which would probably be fine, too. I actually do the same thing for Two Weapon Defense as well: Just let the Improved and Greater ones stack automatically when you meet the prerequisites. That way the fighting style isn't nearly so feat intensive, and a character doesn't need to spend a feat every 5 levels or so just to catch up.

[Khedrac]

I strongly recommend the TWF Off-Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) as essential reading for those who want to dual wield.

[Crake]

The character in question has two attacks per round (BAB +6/+1), has a light off-hand weapon, and two-weapon fighting feat. That gives them a penalty of -2/-2/-2.

This is where you messed up. With regular twf, his attack routine should be -2/-2/-7. With improved twf, it would be -2/-2/-7/-7

[Darg]

However, I'm going to make a radical suggestion:

Remove the Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats. Give their benefits automatically once they reach the prerequisites instead. To support rangers who take that, allow them to use their Combat Style for any other feat that has Two Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite (such as Two Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Rend, Double Hit, etc). Or you can just let them take any fighter bonus feat, which would probably be fine, too. I actually do the same thing for Two Weapon Defense as well: Just let the Improved and Greater ones stack automatically when you meet the prerequisites. That way the fighting style isn't nearly so feat intensive, and a character doesn't need to spend a feat every 5 levels or so just to catch up.

This guy gets it. TWF is feat intensive for no reason. It's a lot of build up for mediocre payoff at high level thanks to the iterative attack penalty. Even a rogue only wants just the TWF feat unless they are trying to benefit from the tempest class. Gloves of the Balanced Hand can give you the effect of the Improved two weapon fighting feat for 8000 gp from the MiC.