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View Full Version : To make Steal Life as low level as possible ( reasonably )



Conradine
2020-11-12, 08:08 PM
Just a thought experiment, not intended for actual play.

Steal Life is a level 8 Necromancy spell. The goal of the thought experiment is to reach a spell, or an incantation ( Unearthed Arcana ) which satisfies these three conditions:

1- difficult and heinous enough to not be something every petty king and rich merchant is able and/or willing to do
2- something that a small, isolated and well organized cult can reasonably arrange
3- plausible in terms of power balance when compared with other similar spells

So, basically, we take the base spell and add drawbacks, additional requirements and limitations in order to reduce it in level.



Steal Life
(Book of Vile Darkness, p. 106)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, Location
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living humanoid
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The caster taps into the life force of a subject and drains it away, adding it to her own. Each round the caster concentrates, she deals 1 point of ability score drain to the subject. Although the caster can choose which ability score to drain, she must choose a different ability score to drain in each round and cannot choose a score already drained until she has drained all the others equally, at which point the process starts over. Thus, if the caster drains 1 point of Strength, she must choose another ability in the next round and cannot choose Strength again until she has drained 1 point each of Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Then, the caster can drain a second point of Strength (or any other ability), but not a third until she has drained a second point from all the other ability scores.

If the caster casts this spell on the night of a full moon, she becomes effectively one week younger for every point she drains. (Her age is reduced, but memories and abilities acquired during that week are not lost.) Otherwise, the subject takes the ability score drain, but the caster gains nothing.

The subject withers and shrivels as the caster drains its ability scores. When the subject's Constitution score reaches 0, the subject becomes a horrid, dry husk and cannot be further drained. If the caster dies while concentrating on this spell, all the subject's lost ability score points are immediately regained.

Location Component: An area under the effect of a desecrate or unhallow spell.



Additional requirements:

1- Patronage from an evil outsider of at least mid-high power ( 12 HD or more ) which must be contacted by a Planar Ally spell or - more likely - with the appropriate DC 30 sacrifice. The evil outsider must agree to help in developing the spell or the incantation, in return of further sacrifices.
2- The ritual requires a specifically prepared place, including a massive stone altar carefully engraved with arcane symbols, stone floor with a complex pentacle carved with precision - to protect the officiant from the dark energies released - and a small temple ( a 5*5 room with stone walls and a roof will suffice ).
3- The ceremony last eight hours and requires chanting and invocations to the dark powers; it must not be interrupted exept for brief pauses which the officiant can use to drink, rest or use a chamber pot. Any fight or serious disturbance will end the ritual instantaneously.
4- The altar and the temple must be consacrated with the blood of no less than 100 HD of sentient creatures, ritually sacrificed to the fiendish patron of the ritual. It's not necessary to make all the sacrifices at once but they must be done in one year or less.
5- The ceremony requires a specifically prepared masterwork knife forged in the blood of the officiand ( 1d6 Constitution damage to provide the blood ) which must be used to sacrifice a newborn child to the fiendish patron; the newborn must share the blood of the officiant ( son, brother or nepew ).


Additional limitations:

1- Very specific victim: only an healthy, human newborn will do ( no goblins, orcs or similar substitutes allowed ). The victim must die ( no Restoration sheningans ) and his soul will either become property of the evil outsider or be utterly destroyed ( no resurrection is possible ).
2- The ritual must happen in very specific nights ( probably the sacred days of the evil outsider deity / archfiend; or solstice and equinoxes; anyhow, not more than 2 or 3 days in a year ).
3- Only a single victim can be sacrified for each ritual, and a successful ceremony will rejuvenate the officiant for one single year ( so the deed must be done twice a year to become younger, or once a year to stall age ).


Additional drawbacks:

1- The lifeforce of the officiant is tied to the sacrifical knife used for the ritual. If the knife is broken, the officiant will immediately re-age all the years he gained, probably killing him unless he found some other means to achieve immortality ( or undeath ).
2- The officiant will be exausted and defenseless after the ritual and will have to rely on his followers / allies / slaves to protect him for at least 8 hours.
3- Although the consacration of the temple and the knife is done only once, each ritual require expensive - but renewable - material components: oils, incenses, perfumes and candles made out the fat of sacrificed victims.



With all these additions, how much could the spell level be reduced, reasonably?

InvisibleBison
2020-11-12, 08:41 PM
Honestly, this seems a bit excessive. If there's an evil character who wants to gain the effects of steal life but can't actually cast it, they can just use planar binding (or a sacrifice) to call forth an efreeti and have it use its wishes to duplicate steal life.

Also, the bit where the soul of the victim is destroyed or given to the patron actually seems like it should prevent the spell level from going below 8th, as it's basically giving a trap the soul effect.

Ruethgar
2020-11-12, 11:17 PM
If you ever want to throw reason to the wind, the existence of Spellhaording dragons and Mind Magi means any spell can be learned by an Archivist or StP Erudite as first level spell no matter their original level.

awa
2020-11-13, 12:39 AM
if its just a thought experiment than I have no opinion but if you are looking for DMing advice make it a magic item (an altar) and the "spell" and its limitations are a very elaborate activation comand. That way its not something that can be used by just anyone and the "caster" can be what ever lv is appropriate for your adventure.

Conradine
2020-11-13, 03:09 AM
If there's an evil character who wants to gain the effects of steal life but can't actually cast it, they can just use planar binding (or a sacrifice) to call forth an efreeti and have it use its wishes to duplicate steal life.

Summoned / conjured / binded creatures don't do that. Manual says "it refuses to use any abilities that cost it experience points or would cost experience points if they were spells."
Even if there was a way around I would find it a bit cheesy.



Also, the bit where the soul of the victim is destroyed or given to the patron actually seems like it should prevent the spell level from going below 8th, as it's basically giving a trap the soul effect.

Actually I though it to be an aggravating factor, meant to prevent cheesy exploits.


Basically it's a low level character which has to do everything with Sacrifice rules, but has time and a small cult to help him.

Feantar
2020-11-13, 03:58 AM
Summoned / conjured / binded creatures don't do that. Manual says "it refuses to use any abilities that cost it experience points or would cost experience points if they were spells."

That specifically only applies to summons, not calls. Check the SRD (http://www.theshl.org/d20/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning). Which is totally reasonable, as summons lack free will, while calls focus on bargaining / coercion.

InvisibleBison
2020-11-13, 08:30 AM
Actually I though it to be an aggravating factor, meant to prevent cheesy exploits.

Cheesy exploits like what, exactly? Resurrecting the baby in an attempt to hide what you're doing? That doesn't seem particularly in-character for someone willing to do this ritual in the first place. And even if it is, the baby is going to have disappeared for at least 8 hours, so someone's going to notice that something's wrong.

Conradine
2020-11-13, 10:04 AM
Things like resurrection-beds and the like.

But whatever, let's forget about the soul part, the objective is to reduce the spell level as much as possible.

JyP
2020-11-13, 10:26 AM
Seems to me there's a prestige class for the same effect - Thief of Life, covered in Iron Chef LXXV (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?472831-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXV&p=20312748&viewfull=1).

ExLibrisMortis
2020-11-13, 10:39 AM
Immortality and long life aren't particularly high-level abilities in D&D--several races are immortal at ECL 1--but they have a big impact on the setting if generally available. So what you're looking for is an in-universe reason why people aren't all immortal. You can add that as part of steal life, I suppose, but you might just want to provide a more general reason. Traditionally, divine intervention and inevitables have been DM favourites.

Anyway, on to steal life. It's a terrible spell as written: it is very weak in combat, and its age-reducing function only works once a month. It's pretty easy to bring the spell level down without making it very powerful.


(1) Underpowered spell. Increase ability drain to 1d4/round. Reduce spell level to 5.
(2) Change ability drain to ability damage. Reduce spell level to 3.

That really should be enough. You can increase the casting time or require an immobile focus, but that removes any combat utility the spell might've had, and puts it firmly in "NPC spell only" territory.

Reprimand
2020-11-13, 12:52 PM
Immortality and long life aren't particularly high-level abilities in D&D--several races are immortal at ECL 1.

That really should be enough. You can increase the casting time or require an immobile focus, but that removes any combat utility the spell might've had, and puts it firmly in "NPC spell only" territory.

I mean if I wanted to be a human and not be undead or change my race etc. This provides and option for immorality even if it has some rigmarole to it. I don't think combat utility is the draw of it. If I as the player character wanted to form a cult of vecna this seems like a perfect spell for me to maintain my youth and use others for my own gain and power.

sleepyphoenixx
2020-11-13, 01:38 PM
Immortality and long life aren't particularly high-level abilities in D&D--several races are immortal at ECL 1--but they have a big impact on the setting if generally available. So what you're looking for is an in-universe reason why people aren't all immortal. You can add that as part of steal life, I suppose, but you might just want to provide a more general reason. Traditionally, divine intervention and inevitables have been DM favourites.

Anyway, on to steal life. It's a terrible spell as written: it is very weak in combat, and its age-reducing function only works once a month. It's pretty easy to bring the spell level down without making it very powerful.


(1) Underpowered spell. Increase ability drain to 1d4/round. Reduce spell level to 5.
(2) Change ability drain to ability damage. Reduce spell level to 3.

That really should be enough. You can increase the casting time or require an immobile focus, but that removes any combat utility the spell might've had, and puts it firmly in "NPC spell only" territory.

It's not supposed to have combat utility. It's very obviously designed for the single purpose of prolonging your life, which is the only reason anyone will learn, prepare or cast it.

While it's true that there are some immortal races in D&D the fact is that for those who are not - usually the most common ones - an extended lifespan tends to be a big deal because it's not easy to get.
Otherwise no one would bother becoming a lich or other undead or casting spells that brutally rip away a victims lifeforce to add to their own.

And yes, i'm including Necropolitan in that because while the mechanical cost may be low the fluff cost is substantial - undead are generally not considered good things and neither is becoming one.
The same applies to using Reincarnate/Last Breath - we think of it in terms of cheaply gaining a couple extra decades or even centuries, but you still have to die first, and it can't have been natural causes or the spell fails.

Maybe your homebrew world has regular druid-suicide cults and freely available Necropolitan conversion that no one has any issues with.
Which could be fun, sure, but that's deliberately going against the established standard. Most campaign worlds aren't like that.

In the end it's up to the DM how hard or easy he wants to make it, but i don't think it fits any of the published campaign settings. If your world differs substantially YMMV.

icefractal
2020-11-13, 01:47 PM
I wouldn't worry about Resurrection beds or the like, because if someone can afford/access that then they can have a Painless Death / Last Breath bed and live forever through reincarnation.

For making it lower level, I think requiring a restrained target is plenty to put it at whatever spell level you want. The combat use is already trivial, the only reason for being so high level is the setting one that immortality should be hard. Which of agree with somewhat but 8th level is too high compared to other methods.

noob
2020-11-13, 01:49 PM
Just a thought experiment, not intended for actual play.

Steal Life is a level 8 Necromancy spell. The goal of the thought experiment is to reach a spell, or an incantation ( Unearthed Arcana ) which satisfies these three conditions:

1- difficult and heinous enough to not be something every petty king and rich merchant is able and/or willing to do
2- something that a small, isolated and well organized cult can reasonably arrange
3- plausible in terms of power balance when compared with other similar spells

So, basically, we take the base spell and add drawbacks, additional requirements and limitations in order to reduce it in level.






Additional requirements:

1- Patronage from an evil outsider of at least mid-high power ( 12 HD or more ) which must be contacted by a Planar Ally spell or - more likely - with the appropriate DC 30 sacrifice. The evil outsider must agree to help in developing the spell or the incantation, in return of further sacrifices.
2- The ritual requires a specifically prepared place, including a massive stone altar carefully engraved with arcane symbols, stone floor with a complex pentacle carved with precision - to protect the officiant from the dark energies released - and a small temple ( a 5*5 room with stone walls and a roof will suffice ).
3- The ceremony last eight hours and requires chanting and invocations to the dark powers; it must not be interrupted exept for brief pauses which the officiant can use to drink, rest or use a chamber pot. Any fight or serious disturbance will end the ritual instantaneously.
4- The altar and the temple must be consacrated with the blood of no less than 100 HD of sentient creatures, ritually sacrificed to the fiendish patron of the ritual. It's not necessary to make all the sacrifices at once but they must be done in one year or less.
5- The ceremony requires a specifically prepared masterwork knife forged in the blood of the officiand ( 1d6 Constitution damage to provide the blood ) which must be used to sacrifice a newborn child to the fiendish patron; the newborn must share the blood of the officiant ( son, brother or nepew ).


Additional limitations:

1- Very specific victim: only an healthy, human newborn will do ( no goblins, orcs or similar substitutes allowed ). The victim must die ( no Restoration sheningans ) and his soul will either become property of the evil outsider or be utterly destroyed ( no resurrection is possible ).
2- The ritual must happen in very specific nights ( probably the sacred days of the evil outsider deity / archfiend; or solstice and equinoxes; anyhow, not more than 2 or 3 days in a year ).
3- Only a single victim can be sacrified for each ritual, and a successful ceremony will rejuvenate the officiant for one single year ( so the deed must be done twice a year to become younger, or once a year to stall age ).


Additional drawbacks:

1- The lifeforce of the officiant is tied to the sacrifical knife used for the ritual. If the knife is broken, the officiant will immediately re-age all the years he gained, probably killing him unless he found some other means to achieve immortality ( or undeath ).
2- The officiant will be exausted and defenseless after the ritual and will have to rely on his followers / allies / slaves to protect him for at least 8 hours.
3- Although the consacration of the temple and the knife is done only once, each ritual require expensive - but renewable - material components: oils, incenses, perfumes and candles made out the fat of sacrificed victims.



With all these additions, how much could the spell level be reduced, reasonably?

Too easy to do in a non heinous way: be an human newborn with 12 hd or more that got the outsider type through a class and not a lineage and pick yourself as a patron then sacrifice yourself and resurrect yourself over and over to yourself as your own patron.
It is valid because you share your own blood.
(polymorph in order to be a newborn)

ExLibrisMortis
2020-11-13, 03:38 PM
I mean if I wanted to be a human and not be undead or change my race etc. This provides and option for immorality even if it has some rigmarole to it.

While it's true that there are some immortal races in D&D the fact is that for those who are not - usually the most common ones - an extended lifespan tends to be a big deal because it's not easy to get.
As I wrote, immortality and long life aren't powerful or unbalancing, but they change the setting a lot if everyone has them*. That's why you're not looking for "balance" to restrict immortality--it is still a very weak ability to have, bordering on the inconsequential, as in the vast majority of campaigns, extended lifespans are completely useless. Instead, you're looking to provide some kind of worldbuilding reason that everyone isn't pursuing immortality all the time. That worldbuilding reason really shouldn't be part of steal life directly, since there are lots of other ways to become immortal, and quite a few of them are cheaper, lower-level, or less morally suspect than steal life. Your best bet--given that you have access to steal life--is probably polymorph any object into an aleax of yourself. Neater, less work.

Now, you could try to balance steal life by requiring a big altar and a one-hour casting time and so on (reasoning that age reduction should be rare and difficult and precious), but at that point... why is it even a spell? If you want age reduction to be a low-level ability that is rare and difficult and precious, why are you putting it on the most commonly used spell list in the game? Why not just make the altar an artifact and let that do all the work? Because honestly, once you need an altar and a sacrifice and a full moon and a special knife and whatnot, the ability to cast a second-level spell adds absolutely nothing to the whole ritual.

Given that the OP asked for a balanced low-level steal life, I actually wanted to do something with the spell. We know that "having an extended lifespan" is not a balance issue--you can't break the game by not dying of old age--so the magnitude of the ability drain determines how balanced a spell it is, with the age reduction added on as bonus effect. As-is, the ability drain is quite low and suitable for a second-level spell, but ability drain cannot be removed until ECL 7 (with restoration), whereas ability damage can be removed at ECL 3 (with lesser restoration). That's why steal life would be balanced as second-level spell with the changes I listed.


*D&D kind of glosses over the mismatch between "immortality is supposed to be hard because otherwise the setting breaks" and "oh yeah, immortality is cheap and infinite numbers of immortals are everywhere". It's one of the many ways in which the writers wrote a pseudo-medieval setting and the designers wrote ultra-high-magic mechanics and they just don't match.