why does darkvision have range?

[Samayu]

Game balance, right?

I kinda think that darkvision is a bit overpowered, for campaigns that will be underground. Overpowered in the sense that the one feature will drive someone's choice of race. I always sense a groan going around the table when someone announces they've taken a surface-dweller race.

And what is darkvision, anyway? People that can see in total darkness have... infravision (as it's called in certain other games)? I guess I could understand that having a range.

But what about seeing well in dim light, like, because you have big irises? What, things get blurry very far away?

If it were my choice, I'd say darkvisioners can see infinite away in dim light.

[firelistener]

The range is necessary for darkness to still have at least some impact on races with darkvision. Without it, those races can sling long-range arrows and spells at enemies far away in the darkness. The point of darkness, from a Dungeon Master perspective, is to add some mystery and suspense. The party will wonder if there are more enemies lurking beyond the border of their vision, but with unlimited range on darkvision it becomes trivial for that element of dungeon-making to be ignored by the players.

Also, darkvision isn't in color. It doesn't come up often, but I like to use that sometimes. For example, the party might have instructions to pull the red lever instead of the blue lever that springs a trap, but the levers are hidden in darkness. They can light a torch, but that might attract enemies.

If you've ever watched TV shows like Survivor where they have those night-time shots where everything is black and white, that's how I imagine darkvision. So yes, at a certain distance things still look dark although it is much easier to see things up close.

[Alcore]

If you have ever played skyrim darkvision is khajiit night eye ability (unlimited range too).

[CheddarChampion]

The literal answer is because it was like that in previous editions.

Making an argument for why it should be kept, though, could be something like this:

Having different ranges of darkvision enables some creatures to have better darkvision than others. This can be a worldbuilding thing or a mechanical advantage for one creature over another. Either way it allows for a little more variety.

Most darkvision is for creatures accustomed to underground life. Unlimited range darkvision would make them better at stuff not really related to that, such as making for great nighttime guards/sentries/spies while aboveground.

Limited range on darkvision can be a tool for the DM. Want to have the far side of a room be hidden? Make it dark and far away from the other side. Are the players keeping watch during the night? They can see movement on the edges lf their darkvision. If you want to make players tense, not knowing is great.

Limited range on darkvision allows for ingenuity to be used to thwart creatures that rely on it. Some players like cooking up plans.

Lastly it might be more realistic. Because science, a light source is brighter up close than far away. If darkvision relies on infrared vision or something like that, being closer would make it easier to see. Being farther away would make it harder to see, to the point where a creature with darkvision just couldn't make out any details past a certain distance.

[Greywander]

Limited range (and also that Perception checks are still at disadvantage in darkness) means that light sources are still useful, albeit not as critical. Casting Light on an arrow or sling stone and then lobbing it into the distance can help you see farther than the range of your darkvision.

[Schwann145]

I share OP's question, but from the exact opposite perspective: I think (non-magical) Darkvision, as it exists now, is basically useless.

I think the reason people see it as so strong is, I'm guessing, most DMs aren't planning sight-based limitations as a regular part of the game, unless it's explicitly so (going to the Underdark, for instance).
So what ends up happening is, instead of actually following the rules and penalties of dim light and enforcing the 60ft limitation, it just gets kinda hand-waived and darkvision races just get to see things that non-darkvision races don't.

But really, 60ft is an incredibly small distance and I think disadvantage on all perception checks is a heftier penalty than most people think at first. (Try taking a walk around your house in the middle of the night with the lights off. There's probably street light coming in the windows, the glow of electronics, maybe a nightlight plugin here or there; likely enough light to count as "dim light" and not total darkness. You'll probably still end up stubbing a toe or bumping things with arms or legs, and that's with the massive advantage of already knowing exactly where everything is - a luxury your character likely doesn't have.)

And then, you run into the obvious problem of, "not everyone in the party has darkvision." Since darkvision overlaps with, and isn't added on to, a lightsource, what you end up having is one character who can see better in torch or spell light than the others, but not farther and you'll still need the light source (which may be something you don't want - light can be a beacon for all the things you don't want to see you!)

tl;dr - If you still need the torch, and darkvision doesn't see any better past the torchlight, then what's really the point?

[cutlery]

The same reason that, by RAW you can't see a torch at night a mile away - game balance.

In older editions, there was infravision - which was basically heat vision, and darkvision - which was the same thing.


I share OP's question, but from the exact opposite perspective: I think (non-magical) Darkvision, as it exists now, is basically useless.



If you use a VTT with light/sight management and try to get much done at night, darkvision is pretty important; to the point that it is really painful for anyone without it. It makes spells like dancing lights a lot more useful. I think that's how it ought to work, as the first time the party tried something like this it dawns on them that they will need to figure out the lighting issue - it isn't something they can handwave away as in theatre of the mind.

A human in, say, the Underdark is going to be nearly blind most of the time, unfortunately - unless they acquire goggles or use a light source; at least until and if they gain access to the spell Darkvision.

[Gignere]

The same reason that, by RAW you can't see a torch at night a mile away - game balance.

In older editions, there was infravision - which was basically heat vision, and darkvision - which was the same thing.




If you use a VTT with light/sight management and try to get much done at night, darkvision is pretty important; to the point that it is really painful for anyone without it. It makes spells like dancing lights a lot more useful. I think that's how it ought to work, as the first time the party tried something like this it dawns on them that they will need to figure out the lighting issue - it isn't something they can handwave away as in theatre of the mind.

A human in, say, the Underdark is going to be nearly blind most of the time, unfortunately - unless they acquire goggles or use a light source; at least until and if they gain access to the spell Darkvision.

Playing out of the abyss right now on VTT and the Dragonborn in the group is always saying I can’t see anything on the map. The DM is like yeah that’s because you need a torch. Lmao.

[Hal]

But really, 60ft is an incredibly small distance and I think disadvantage on all perception checks is a heftier penalty than most people think at first.

If you're fighting at night outdoors, this is true. On the other hand, how frequently do you have such large underground/enclosed spaces? In all my time GMing, I think it's come up only a handful of times where the range on a players' darkvision was relevant in a dungeon.

[KorvinStarmast]

A human in, say, the Underdark is going to be nearly blind most of the time, unfortunately - unless they acquire goggles or use a light source; at least until and if they gain access to the spell Darkvision. I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of phosphorescent fungus in the underdark. Not so? Is that only in drow cities?
Playing out of the abyss right now on VTT and the Dragonborn in the group is always saying I can’t see anything on the map. The DM is like yeah that’s because you need a torch. Lmao. Hilarious. :smallconfused:

[Gignere]

I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of phosphorescent fungus in the underdark. Not so? Is that only in drow cities? Hilarious. :smallconfused:

Yes there are a lot of luminescent fungi in the underdark but only in the areas where they are concentrated can the fungi provide dim illumination most areas they are too sparse. Or at least that’s how our DM has ran it so far.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

As the distance from the object emitting radiation get bigger the density of the radiation get smaller.

[Schwann145]

The same reason that, by RAW you can't see a torch at night a mile away - game balance.

What RAW establishes this? In real life, if the terrain allows for it, you can absolutely see a torch at night a mile away; if it's flat and clear enough, you could see it 30 miles away or more.
By older edition rules you couldn't see *anything* a mile away, a mountain range included, but I don't know of any such rule limitations in 5e.

[MaxWilson]

The same reason that, by RAW you can't see a torch at night a mile away - game balance.

I'd be interested to hear the argument for why letting PCs see torches from a mile away at night would upset game balance.

[Lunali]

tl;dr - If you still need the torch, and darkvision doesn't see any better past the torchlight, then what's really the point?

The TL;DR summarizes it, if you still need the torch, darkvision is practically useless. The point you left out is if you don't need the torch. If the whole party has darkvision and you aren't particularly worried about finding traps, you can go without a torch and be effectively invisible in darkness.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I had a session recently which shoved home that darkvision isn't useless.

None of the party have darkvision (yeah, odd, isn't it? halfling, human x2, kenku, soulforged[1]). They entered a dark cave. Had lights (torch + dancing lights). Enemies were hidden in the darkness, with torches out of line of sight around corners. The entrance was carefully kept dark so that people would (ideally) think it was deserted or could be more easily ambushed.

Enemies sat in the darkness and shot at the (illuminated) party. Party knew that they were there, but couldn't see them (which made spells hard and none of them are really good at range with attacks). Heck, I even forgot to give the attackers advantage (total brain fart). It was still painful. All were within 60 feet, so darkvision would have been enough to at least see them--they weren't really hidden, just not visible.

It helped that we're using a VTT that handles light and vision, including line of sight and dim vs bright light.

Edit: And I'm totally fine with being able to see light sources from any distance. Basically, I treat anything in an area of bright/dim light as being illuminated at that light level, so anyone (no matter the light where they are particularly) can see them at any distance. So someone in bright light can be seen normally even through darkness, while someone in darkness can't be seen except by darkvision, and that only at 60' or less.

[KaussH]

The TL;DR summarizes it, if you still need the torch, darkvision is practically useless. The point you left out is if you don't need the torch. If the whole party has darkvision and you aren't particularly worried about finding traps, you can go without a torch and be effectively invisible in darkness.

Sounds like underground races need more traps.

[Samayu]

If you can hit a person in broad daylight with an arrow, at 300 feet, you can hit them in darkness if they're holding a torch.

[Throne12]

Are you looking for a scientific explanation. If so then just think about this way races that live in darkness all the time like kobolds, drow, deep gnomes, ect. There eyes have evolved/created to taken in more light allowing them to see farther. L

[Lunali]

Sounds like underground races need more traps.

The problem with that is that when defending your own territory you should be using torches or other light sources. Going without light sources is for people that are trying not to be seen, which usually means intruders rather than residents.

Now if you mean traps in their hunting grounds or some place they need to defend but rarely visit, that's a different matter.

[KaussH]

The problem with that is that when defending your own territory you should be using torches or other light sources. Going without light sources is for people that are trying not to be seen, which usually means intruders rather than residents.

Now if you mean traps in their hunting grounds or some place they need to defend but rarely visit, that's a different matter.

Thats exactly it. Traps in places people might want to sneak through, forcing them to either hit traps, or use light.

[Laserlight]

If you're fighting at night outdoors, this is true. On the other hand, how frequently do you have such large underground/enclosed spaces? In all my time GMing, I think it's come up only a handful of times where the range on a players' darkvision was relevant in a dungeon.

Depends on your dungeon. If you're in a kobold warren, then yeah, you probably don't have range issues, but if you're in a place big enough for giants or dragons, then you may very well find that 60ft isn't enough.

I've had the players enter a hall with a grey tile floor, and a warning "stay on the path!". They took a while to realize they needed to cast Light so they could see that the "grey" tiles were actually red and green, and of course once they showed a light, they were noticed.

[Tawmis]

If it were my choice, I'd say darkvisioners can see infinite away in dim light.

So if you're player is on one side of the Grand Canyon (in the Underdark version) - they should be able to see a Halfling standing on the other side with perfect clarity?

At some point, no matter what, the iris can't absorb all the light to see great distances.

And giving them infinite distance would make playing anything that doesn't have Darkvision utterly silly.

[Samayu]

I'm sorry, I oversimplified that. You'd get the same "infinite" that you'd get in daylight above ground.

I game terms, there's no issue with seeing as far as 600 feet, since that's the range or a longbow.