Epic Evil Gestalt Character Help

[MTGDad]

Ok, my friend is running a LvL 25 Gestalt game,where we are evil. He plans on dropping us into some major city or realm and just letting us run rampant. We get 2 free LA, and any official DnD 3.5 book is fair game. Want to try and stay away from super chees stuff. The first toon I built for it was a dragonwrought kobold Dragon Fire Adept, Unholy Ravager of Tiamat, Talon of Tiamat. I did a full build of him and just wasnt happy.

So I am looking for advice on different things to try, build ideas, suggestions, really anything.

The rest of the group is a buffed dread necromance, binder/trunamer, and a shifter rager.

This is my first time posting here, so any help would be awesome.

[Maat Mons]

There are a few different schools of though on gestalt.

One is to have an active side and a passive side. Frequently, the active side will be a full caster, and the passive side will be something that gets big numbers.

An example of such a build would be Sorcerer on one side, and on the other side, a little Paladin of Tyranny, a little Hexblade, and... I don't know... a little Monk with that feat that switches your AC bonus to Charisma?

Some people like to go full caster on both sides, but have one be spontaneous and the other be prepared.

So, for that, you could go with either Wizard or Archivist on one side, and either Psion or Beguiler on the other.

Or go Druid on one side, and Mystic on the other. I believe the Dragonlance book that Mystic comes from is the official one.

Another popular option is to use one side for a racial class. But you might want to check with your DM to make sure LA only goes on one side.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Gloura (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is +2 LA, has 7 Fey HD, gets Bard 7 spellcasting as a racial trait, and adds its Cha bonus to its saving throws and AC. There's even a section on devious glouras. They get Dex +10, Con +4, Wis +2, Cha +6.

Two levels of (fallen) Cobra-Strike Monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) gets Dodge and Mobility, and you can take Ascetic Mage to replace Wis to AC with Cha to AC.

Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) requires Dodge and Mobility, and at 2nd level adds your Cha bonus to your AC again. The third level ability has some nice interactions with two-handed power attack.

Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), or Blackguard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm), adds your Cha bonus to your saving throws again. You can take both Paladin of Slaughter 2 and Blackguard 3 and the Cha to saves stacks, plus that gets you Rebuke Undead for Divine Might which adds your Cha bonus to weapon damage, and gets you 2nd level divine spells to qualify for....

Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun requires 2nd level divine spellcasting and a nonlawful alignment, among other things, and at 1st level it adds your Cha bonus to your AC as a profane bonus.


That's 4x Cha to AC, and 3x Cha to saving throws. So if you start with Cha 18+6, +6 for levels, +6 enhancement, +2 from Dragon Devotee 1, +5 Inherent bonus, and let's say +1 from age to round it out, that's Cha 44 for a +17 bonus. That's +51 to saving throws before base saves and other ability bonuses, and AC 78 completely naked with no items and not even counting Dex. Get both Evasion and Mettle and you'll be an unstoppable juggernaut.

For the other side of the build, use whatever you want. I'd probably go with Sorcerer or some other Cha-based arcane caster.

1. Fey HD 1// Sorcerer 1
2. Fey HD 2// Sorcerer 2
3. Fey HD 3// Sorcerer 3
4. Fey HD 4// Sorcerer 4
5. Fey HD 5// Sorcerer 5
6. Fey HD 6// Ruathar 1
7. Fey HD 7// Ruathar 2
8. Spellthief 1// Incantatrix 1
9. Cobra-Strike Monk 1// Incantatrix 2
10. Cobra-Strike Monk 2// Incantatrix 3
11. Paladin of Slaughter 1// Incantatrix 4
12. Paladin of Slaughter 2// Incantatrix 5
13. Blackguard 1// Sorcerer 6
14. Blackguard 2// Sorcerer 7
15. Blackguard 3// Sorcerer 8
16. Arcane Duelist 1// Sorcerer 9
17. Arcane Duelist 2// Sorcerer 10
18. Arcane Duelist 3// Sorcerer 11
19. Dragon Devotee 1// Sorcerer 12
20. Mystic Wanderer 1// Sorcerer 13
21. Hexblade 1// Incantatrix 6
22. Hexblade 2// Incantatrix 7
23. Hexblade 3// Incantatrix 8
24. Rogue 1// Incantatrix 9
25. Rogue 2// Incantatrix 10

The Rogue levels are for the Spell Reflection ACF, use this variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) to get two Fighter bonus feats instead of the 1d6 sneak attack. Rotate those up earlier in the build if you want to use those bonus feats to meet your Blackguard prerequisites. Hexblade is for Mettle, you get Evasion from Monk. Your Incantatrix prohibited school can be applied to your Bard casting, so do that and pick evocation. Use the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Take Master Spellthief to buff your caster level for Sorcerer and Bard.

Max out your Spellcraft skill, you need a +50 to use metamagic effect to add persistent spell to a 9th level spell by taking ten on the check. You can have +30 from ranks and synergy bonus alone, pre-epic you can get up to +30 on an item (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm) which should be priced at bonus squared x 100 gp (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), so the remaining +20 is only 40,000 gp, but that can be lower due to Int bonus. Ideally you'll also use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells since the action economy system only exists during initiative. Each of those is usable 3+Int mod times per day, so if you're at something like 14, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +1 age you'll have 26 for a +8 modifier, and be able to persist 22 spells every day. Superior Invisibility is a must-have, Thunderlance uses Cha for attack and damage rolls and can hit any where from adjacent to 20 ft. away, Wraithstrike is required with that, Shield isn't exactly necessary but why not, and the rest can be Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. Some of those you can spend high level spell slots to cast persistent normally even. For every Persistent Cloud of Knives spell you have you can make a free attack within 30 ft., each does 1d6+5 damage and inflicts a negative level thanks to Fell Drain. A given creature can only gain one negative level per spell, so two attacks from the same Cloud of Knives spell on one creature only inflicts one negative level, but an attack from each of them inflicts that number of negative levels.

[MTGDad]

So, DM nixed the idea of stacking CHA bonuses. Says they have to be different "Types"

Everything that I have come up with so far, feels way underpowered compared to the rest of the group.

[Quertus]

So, DM nixed the idea of stacking CHA bonuses. Says they have to be different "Types"

Everything that I have come up with so far, feels way underpowered compared to the rest of the group.

1) have you played with this GM before? Do their rulings have anything to do with the rules?

2) if you're feeling underpowered compared to… "a buffed dread necromance, binder/trunamer, and a shifter rager", something is either really wrong, or really right.

3) balance to the table… and the module. Perhaps the GM could be convinced to provide sample characters / a sample encounter for us to balance against?

[MTGDad]

1) have you played with this GM before? Do their rulings have anything to do with the rules?

2) if you're feeling underpowered compared to… "a buffed dread necromance, binder/trunamer, and a shifter rager", something is either really wrong, or really right.

3) balance to the table… and the module. Perhaps the GM could be convinced to provide sample characters / a sample encounter for us to balance against?

1. This is my main play group, we have been playing with each other for like 23 years. The GM is very picky about stackign bonuses, they have to be from different specific sources.

2. The dread necro has a lot of help from the gam, as its a newer player, and is underpowered on its own. THe Truenamer, is very typically a min/max player. And the shifter, is the DSM character, so i know it will be top notch.

3. what I know is that the gam, is going to drop us into a world, he talked about dungeon world, or waterdeep, and just let us run ham.

I hope this helps some.

[Maat Mons]

It would be easier to offer suggestions if you could narrow down your area of interest for us.



Lolth-Touched is a notoriously powerful +1 LA template. The Vecna-Blooded template is excellent for anyone who works in secret, and is also +1 LA.

Unfortunately, Lolth-Touched and Vecna-Blooded are bestowed by rival deities, so having both probably isn't an option.

Phrenic is a +2 LA template that scales nicely with level.



I had forgotten to mention this in my first post, but in high-level play, especially in Epic, it is important to have a sizable array of immunities. This can be accomplished with items. But if you like, some aspects of it can also be accomplished with classes.

The Pale Master and Bone Knight prestige classes are the go to for class-based immunity.

Warforged Juggernaut is usually avoided, but you have plenty of levels to spare, so it would probably be fine in this case.



The trouble with free LA at this level is that you can have long ago transcended your original race. True Mindswitch can get you any body you desire. Or Shapechange, if you don't mind the duration.



Can you use content from the Wizards of the Coast website? If so, their Epic Insights article series included a prestige class called Void Incarnate that I always thought was kind of neat.

[MTGDad]

So this is where i am atm build wise

Race- Tiefling
Build- warblade 17, enlightned fist 3, abjurant champion 5// wizard 1, monk 1, duskblade 13, enlightend fist 4, ???? 6

Not the actual progression, But this gives me lvl 9 maneuvers, lvl 9 spells, can turn ray spells into touch spells, and can apply a touch spell to every attack each round.

Im not sure on what to do with the last 6 lvls, but they need to increase caster lvl so I can get the lvl 9 spells.

Does this help some? ANy ideas?

[Maat Mons]

Tiefling is only +1 LA, so I'd go ahead and slap on Vecna-Blooded.

You'll have to check with your DM, but by default, dual-progression PrCs like Enlightened Fist and Abjurant Champion are banned in gestalt. I know those might not seem like dual-progression, but the text explicitly calls out Eldritch Knight, so I think it's safe to say that Abjurant Champion counts. And the text also explicitly calls out Arcane Trickster, so I think it's safe to say that Enlightened Fist counts too.

In order to gain access to 9th-level maneuvers at character level 25, you only need 9 levels in an initiator class. You just need initiator level 17, and initiator level is equal to yor levels in initiating classes, plus half your levels in non-initiating classes.

Maybe Duskblade 13 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 9 // Wizard 5 / Wizard PrC 10 / different Wizard PrC 10? Gets you Arcane Channeling, 9th-level maneuvers, and you can choose Wizard PrCs that lose up to 8 levels of casting while still keeping 9th-level spells.

Honestly though, I don't know if 9th-level maneuvers are worth the effort.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, DM nixed the idea of stacking CHA bonuses. Says they have to be different "Types"

Everything that I have come up with so far, feels way underpowered compared to the rest of the group.

Those are different bonus types:

Gloura's Cha to AC is a Deflection bonus as shown in the stat block. Deflection isn't a bonus type that can typically be applied to saving throws, but it's the same ability so it should be the same bonus type.

Monk plus Ascetic Mage is a Monk AC bonus, it's a type of its own. While it's technically untyped, RAW multiple untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack. Other class features named "AC Bonus" such as those granted by Ninja or Swordsage don't stack with each other because they have the same name, and are thus from the same source. Charisma is not considered a source for a bonus, the class feature is the source, your Cha bonus is used as its intensity.

Arcane Duelist is 3.0, but 3.5 conversion would make it a Dodge bonus given it states it works the same as your Dex bonus to AC.

Mystic Wanderer's AC bonus is specifically called out as a sacred or profane bonus, depending on your alignment.

The Paladin (of Slaughter) and Blackguard save bonuses are untyped, but the abilities that grant them have different names: Divine Grace for Paladin, and Dark Blessing for Blackguard. They're both granted due to your connection to higher/lower powers, and vary in intensity based on your ability to gain influence from those powers (i.e. Charisma).


So the only things that could be argued as not stacking would be the Paladin and Blackguard save bonuses, but that's only from a RAI perspective given you can't maintain PHB Paladin class features and also be a Blackguard.

[MTGDad]

Tiefling is only +1 LA, so I'd go ahead and slap on Vecna-Blooded.

You'll have to check with your DM, but by default, dual-progression PrCs like Enlightened Fist and Abjurant Champion are banned in gestalt. I know those might not seem like dual-progression, but the text explicitly calls out Eldritch Knight, so I think it's safe to say that Abjurant Champion counts. And the text also explicitly calls out Arcane Trickster, so I think it's safe to say that Enlightened Fist counts too.

In order to gain access to 9th-level maneuvers at character level 25, you only need 9 levels in an initiator class. You just need initiator level 17, and initiator level is equal to yor levels in initiating classes, plus half your levels in non-initiating classes.

Maybe Duskblade 13 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 9 // Wizard 5 / Wizard PrC 10 / different Wizard PrC 10? Gets you Arcane Channeling, 9th-level maneuvers, and you can choose Wizard PrCs that lose up to 8 levels of casting while still keeping 9th-level spells.

Honestly though, I don't know if 9th-level maneuvers are worth the effort.

So, I double checked with my DM, for whatever reason we have never followed that ruling. Know it seems crazy, but i have used enlightened fist before with no problems.

The reason for lvl 9 maneuvers is time stands still, which would allow em to take 2 full attack actions, so with Duskblade lvl 13 ability i can add a spell to each round of attacks, and enlightened fist lets me turn ray spells into touch spells. Seems fun to me.


Those are different bonus types:

Gloura's Cha to AC is a Deflection bonus as shown in the stat block. Deflection isn't a bonus type that can typically be applied to saving throws, but it's the same ability so it should be the same bonus type.

Monk plus Ascetic Mage is a Monk AC bonus, it's a type of its own. While it's technically untyped, RAW multiple untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack. Other class features named "AC Bonus" such as those granted by Ninja or Swordsage don't stack with each other because they have the same name, and are thus from the same source. Charisma is not considered a source for a bonus, the class feature is the source, your Cha bonus is used as its intensity.

Arcane Duelist is 3.0, but 3.5 conversion would make it a Dodge bonus given it states it works the same as your Dex bonus to AC.

Mystic Wanderer's AC bonus is specifically called out as a sacred or profane bonus, depending on your alignment.

The Paladin (of Slaughter) and Blackguard save bonuses are untyped, but the abilities that grant them have different names: Divine Grace for Paladin, and Dark Blessing for Blackguard. They're both granted due to your connection to higher/lower powers, and vary in intensity based on your ability to gain influence from those powers (i.e. Charisma).


So the only things that could be argued as not stacking would be the Paladin and Blackguard save bonuses, but that's only from a RAI perspective given you can't maintain PHB Paladin class features and also be a Blackguard.

That was my thinking, but when i brought it up to the DM, he wasnt looking at it that way. Im sure if i pushed t enough we could make it work, but for me its not worth the fight lol. THanks for the help though

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If your DM doesn't understand the rules of stacking bonus types, then I'd question whether he can run an epic level game, although he may just disagree with how X stat to Y bonus works and isn't allowing it on principle.

This seems like a perfect opportunity to play a TWF Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) with Mind Cripple. Six levels of Psychic Assassin only loses two levels of manifesting due to the text > table rules. Include Rogue 3 for Penetrating Strike so you still get half your sneak attack dice against a flanked foe who's typically immune to sneak attack, and can still Mind Cripple them. Use Shadow Pouncing shenanigans to get tons of extra full attacks, and you could even play a Dvati from Dragon Compendium. Use Quickened Twin Repeat Benign Transposition every round on your two bodies flanking an opponent, they'll switch spots twice the turn you cast it, giving you four full attacks, then twice more the next round for four more full attacks, plus you can cast that again the next round for four more full attacks that round and the round after.

[Buddy76]

So, I double checked with my DM, for whatever reason we have never followed that ruling. Know it seems crazy, but i have used enlightened fist before with no problems.

Can you take other dual-advancing prestige classes? And/or prestige classes at both sides at the same level? If you can, we probably can squeeze in some warlock to get some utility and extra damage (via eldritch claws).

For race, have you considered a primordial, draconic half-giant? You'd get +2 Con, -2Dex, +4Int, +6CHA plus poweful build and a few other goodies.