What spells would you give the old Sorcerer sub-classes?

[bendking]

Now that it's confirmed that the old sub-classes won't be getting origin spell lists, it's high time to make a homebrew fix.
What spells would you pick for the old sub-classes? Bear in mind you can pick spells from basically any class, as the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul show us.

Bonus: Here's a homebrew (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MM7Y5JmaYAZ8xuovecZ) I made to alleviate this issue, feedback is welcome.

[TheUser]

As a DM I would be 100% comfortable with these lists in light of what Tasha's brings to the table.

The old subclasses should have had bonus spell options printed as part of the new material and a list like this manages to fit the themes of all the sorcerer subclasses quite well.

[P. G. Macer]

I looked at your lists, and they’re fine, though I prefer the lists I home-brewed myself (naturally:smalltongue:)

I haven’t published them anywhere online, so I’ll write 'em out here:

Draconic Bloodline (All colors except Green)
• Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb*
• Dragon’s Breath, Knock
• Fear, Protection from Energy
• Charm Monster, Elemental Bane
• Legend Lore, Skill Empowerment
*Can be cast without a material component for the damage type matching one’s Dragon Ancestor

For that list, I chose Knock because I struggled to find another 2nd-level spell and didn’t want to choose Enhance Ability because I gave Skill Empowerment at Level 5.

Green Draconic Bloodline
• Cause Fear, Ray of Sickness
• Dragon’s Breath, Protection from Poison
• Fear, Stinking Cloud
• Charm Monster, Grasping Vine
• Cloudkill, Skill Empowerment

Wild Magic
• Chaos Bolt, Color Spray
• Crown of Madness, Nystul’s Magic Aura
• Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern
• Confusion, Evard’s Black Tentacles
• Animate Objects, Synaptic Static

Storm
• Fog Cloud, Thunderwave
• Shatter, Warding Wind
• Call Lightning, Wind Wall
• Ice Storm, Storm Sphere
• Conjure Elemental*, Control Winds
*Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only air elementals with it.

Divine Soul (Good)
• Cure Wounds (via Divine Magic), Healing Word
• Healing Spirit, Lesser Restoration
• Aura of Vitality, Beacon of Hope
• Aura of Life, Aura of Purity
• Dawn, Summon Celestial

Divine Soul (Evil)
• Inflict Wounds (via Divine Magic), Cause Fear
• Darkness, Ray of Enfeeblement
• Animate Dead, Summon Undead
• Shadow of Moil, Summon Greater Demon
• Danse Macabre, Infernal Calling

Divine Soul (Law)
• Bless (via Divine Magic), Command
• Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth
• Crusader’s Mantle, Remove Curse
• Banishment, Guardian of Faith
• Geas, Infernal Calling

Divine Soul (Chaos)
• Bane (via Divine Magic), Chaos Bolt
• Blur, Crown of Madness
• Blink, Summon Lesser Demons
• Confusion, Freedom of Movement
• Mislead, Seeming

Divine Soul (Neutrality)
• Protection from Evil and Good (via Divine Magic), Speak with Animals
• Protection from Poison, Warding Bond
• Life Transference, Dispel Magic
• Conjure Woodland Beings, Sickening Radiance
• Dispel Evil and Good, Hallow

Shadow Magic
• Cause Fear, Inflict Wounds
• Darkness (via Eyes of the Dark), Pass Without Trace
• Feign Death, Summon Shadowspawn
• Blight, Shadow of Moil
• Danse Macabre, Negative Energy Flood

Whew, I typed that out manually. I’m not 100% sold on some of my choices, though one of my guiding principles was to both include spells not on the sorcerer list and to have diversity between origin spell lists.

[bendking]

-snip-
Great lists as well!
I tend to prefer a single general list for each sub-class instead of variating lists to keep it simple, but I like what you've done here.

[TheUser]

Great lists as well!
I tend to prefer a single general list for each sub-class instead of variating lists to keep it simple, but I like what you've done here.

I think for the sake of symmetry with the currently implemented lists for new Tasha's subclasses it would behoove us to stick to one list per subclass and let the swapping within the parameters specific to those subclasses give players the flexibility they so desire. A "draconic" list is far more digestible than a draconic list for each subtype of draconic sorcerer.

[P. G. Macer]

I think for the sake of symmetry with the currently implemented lists for new Tasha's subclasses it would behoove us to stick to one list per subclass and let the swapping within the parameters specific to those subclasses give players the flexibility they so desire. A "draconic" list is far more digestible than a draconic list for each subtype of draconic sorcerer.

When designing the lists, that was my original plan. However, most of the spells that fit all the other 9 dragon types didn’t fit the green dragon, mostly because in D&D poison is not considered an elemental damage type, so I made the green list to compensate.

For Divine Soul, I also had one list originally, but it turned out to be hard to find 9 spells that both fit the theme and had few to no alignment connotations, so I split it into 5 lists.

[clash]

To be honest i have always felt like sorcerers should stick to theme more. I would reduce the number of spells known they get over their career to 10 and give each sorcerer subclass 2 spells per level up to 5 and 1 per level from 6-9.

[Starman]

Now that it's confirmed that the old sub-classes won't be getting origin spell lists, it's high time to make a homebrew fix.

What problem needs to be fixed? Have you tested the new sorcerors out yet or are you just assuming its broken? The designers put lots of time into testing that you have not yet done.

[Dark.Revenant]

What problem needs to be fixed? Have you tested the new sorcerors out yet or are you just assuming its broken? The designers put lots of time into testing that you have not yet done.

We're assuming the new Sorcerer subclasses are fine. Rather, the old ones have had longstanding issues with picking enough spells to both fit (most) themes and also remain mechanically effective. Homebrewers have been giving Sorcerer subclasses bonus spells for years; it's just now that there is official support for the solution—but only for the new subclasses—that the lack thereof for the legacy subclasses has become even more irksome.

[Kireban]

The old sorcerers need extra spells, but they shouldnt get as many as the new subclasses which paid for it with a level 1 defining feat

[bendking]

What problem needs to be fixed? Have you tested the new sorcerors out yet or are you just assuming its broken? The designers put lots of time into testing that you have not yet done.
Looks like your don't agree with the premise of this post. That's fine, but the purpose of my post was not to debate the merit of it's premise, but to extrapolate on it.

[Kane0]

Good lists though perhaps Shadow and Divine shouldnt be quite as good as they are. On the whole there are very few niche/dud spells that I can see on any list, compared to the variety you see amongst say cleric domains (which i see as a bit of a balancing factor to even out subclass features)

[KorvinStarmast]

I think you have over corrected.
I'd recommend 1 spell per spell level, the way the Ranger sub classes in Xanathar's have it.

For Draconic
1 Dragon's Breath
2 Darkvision
3 Protection from Energy
4 Polymorph
5 Geas

For Wild Magic
1 Chaos Bolt
2 Mirror Image
3 Hunger of Hadar
4 Hallucinatory Terrain
5 Scrying

For for Divine
(pick one from Life or Light domain, will come back and do this later)

For Storm
1 Thunderwave
2 Gust of Wind
3 Sleet Storm
4 Ice Storm
5 Storm Sphere

For Shadow
1 Expeditious Retreat
2 Blur
3 Fear
4 Blight
5 Dream

[Klorox]

I love that people like you guys are doing this.

I really don't like the idea that a future player will be turned off to the original classes because newer options are just far and away better.

[TheUser]

I think you have over corrected.
I'd recommend 1 spell per spell level, the way the Ranger sub classes in Xanathar's have it.

I think that if you're going to do that and the option to swap those spells exist (as is the case with the new subclasses) then the lists should be the epitome of what any sorcerer would want because the player will swap out what they do not want anyway and so we should stick to the notion that the least amount of correction should be necessary



For Draconic
1 Dragon's Breath
2 Darkvision
3 Protection from Energy
4 Polymorph
5 Geas


Dragon's Breath is a level 2 spell... so... that's my first correction...maybe absorb elements at 1, dragon's breath moved to 2 and no darkvision, protection from energy isn't that great; I imagine most sorcerers would swap that and so maybe starting with a spell that is highly usable, adaptable and evokes draconic imagery would be fear. I feel like polymorph is a great spell, but only a few dragon types utilize change shape and so polymorph feels less "dragony" than I would've hoped. By that same token, Elemental Bane isn't really something dragon's use but feels on brand for the "deals elemental damage" that the subclass features aim for (where as protection from energy actually competes with the draconic subclass feature at 6). Geas is fine.

New list would become:
1 - Absorb Elements
2 - Dragon's Breath
3 - Fear
4 - Elemental Bane
5 - Geas



For Wild Magic
1 Chaos Bolt
2 Mirror Image
3 Hunger of Hadar
4 Hallucinatory Terrain
5 Scrying


I think that some of these picks correlate highly to the idea of promoting randomness and others just feel like they miss the mark with regards to that theme; essentially the last 3 don't evoke the feel of a wild mage embracing randomness. Like Hunger of Hadar? How is a dark hungering void full of tentacles at all attributable to the randomness and chaos of magic? That's why I liked the Blink selection from the original document. If you are playing a Wild Mage you're playing to the coin flip and randomness so let's help the player embrace that as much as possible.

New list of 1 would become:
1 - Chaos Bolt
3 - Mirror Image
5 - Blink
7 - Confusion
9 - Reincarnate

All of these new spells have effects predicated on the roll of extra dice; right in the wild mage's wheelhouse and is what the player is signing up for.



For for Divine
(pick one from Life or Light domain, will come back and do this later)

For Storm
1 Thunderwave
2 Gust of Wind
3 Sleet Storm
4 Ice Storm
5 Storm Sphere


Storm sphere is not a 5th level spell unfortunately and I would say that if you're going to give Storm Sorcerers some extra access you go big or go home. I feel like they are one of the weakest subclasses so beefing them up with some hefty Druid spells brings them into a unique feel.

1 - Thunderwave
3 - Gust of Wind
5 - Call Lightning
7 - Storm Sphere
9 - Maelstrom

I love maelstrom, it's a fun spell that is very effective and call lightning has some great synergy with quicken spell.



For Shadow
1 Expeditious Retreat
2 Blur
3 Fear
4 Blight
5 Dream

I like this list except for the level one pick because I mostly don't understand how Expeditious Retreat lends itself to a shadow schema, Disguise Self seems more universally applicable to mischief makers and the notion of bending light to suit your needs.

[KorvinStarmast]

5 - Call Lightning
I explicly choce not to include Call Lightning; I pondered it.
Also, thanks, don't have my XGTE handy so I forgot sphere's level. Agree on Maelstrom.
Also, I'd not have them swappable'; I did note the similarity to Ranger XGTE, and you don't swap those out (more like domain spells).


I like this list except for the level one pick because I mostly don't understand how Expeditious Retreat lends itself to a shadow schema, You slip away under the cover of shadows.
But Disguise Self kind of fits also.

And I was thinking through how this would be similar to how Divine Soul gets fixed spells at chargen ..

Also, I think you captured the 'feel' pretty well in your lists.

[Sindal]

This isn't mine, but it's the list I would prescribe to if giving extras

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HyBT1deBmN

[Spiritchaser]

I’d agree with Korvanstarmast that only one spell per level is required, but...

Would you allow the spells to be swapped for warlock/wizard/sorcerer spells of specific schools as the Tasha’s lists allow?

I’d like to. Not sure what monsters that would create. Giving draconic evocation and... transmutation?... would open up wall of force, but then I’ve never liked the idea that wall of force wasn’t on the sorcerer list anyway.

[mathenhan]

The old sorcerers need extra spells, but they shouldnt get as many as the new subclasses which paid for it with a level 1 defining feat

Am I missing something? Isn't both new subclasses getting their level 1 features besides the extra spells?

[Kireban]

Am I missing something? Isn't both new subclasses getting their level 1 features besides the extra spells?

They have only one level 1 feature except the bonus spells list unlike all the other subclasses that got 2.
One is a defining feature and the other is more of a fluff feature.

[Unoriginal]

This thread's title made me think of homebrewing a Sorcerer subclass based around the character developing magic powers due to being very old (and in turn, who are very old because they've developed magic powers).

[KorvinStarmast]

This thread's title made me think of homebrewing a Sorcerer subclass based around the character developing magic powers due to being very old (and in turn, who are very old because they've developed magic powers). Sorcerous origin: Grognard :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Sorcerous origin: Grognard :smallbiggrin:

"Born in a previous edition of the game, this Sorcerer retains some of their past power."

[micahaphone]

I agree that sorcerers should only get 1 spell of each level - to take a snapshot at level 10, this would boost sorcerers from 11 -> 16 spells known, when a bard with magical secrets knows 14 at this level. Bards will finish with 22 spells, and sorcerers 20. So there's some give and take but I'd put those numbers as being roughly equivalent with each other, making our spells known charisma casters more even in power.



Now ignore everything I just wrote because I also really like this particular homebrew origin spells list that does give 2 per level. This is too complicated to ever be official but it's great. The matrix of choices for divine soul, the "borrowing" of the Mizzium Apparatus mechanics for Wild Magic, every possible dragon heritage being unique, it's amazing. I love it.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MKcSKcvh-ptyVxcH6OE




Here's my rough attempt at a single spell per level list. Some of these I'm iffy about, so multiple potential options will be listed. Let me know if you see better options for that level.

Draconic:

chromatic orb
dragon's breath
fear
charm monster? stone skin? elemental bane? Not sure of a thematic level 4 spell that also isn't bonkers strong
telepathic bond or scrying or maybe dominate person

A blanket draconic list is hard to do once you go past first and second level spells, there's not much higher level stuff that's elemental but still "choose your own element"



Wild Magic:

chaos bolt
pyrotechnics
gaseous form
confusion
mislead

I do think that Mislead is the perfect thing for a subclass spell list - rarely used, feels on theme, and has a variety of applications.

Divine Soul:

bless
zone of truth
revivify
divination
commune or greater restoration


Shadow:

false life
Darkness
Hunger of Hadar
shadow of moil
enervation


Storm

fog cloud
shatter
call lightning
storm sphere
maelstrom

[ZRN]

I’d agree with Korvanstarmast that only one spell per level is required, but...

Would you allow the spells to be swapped for warlock/wizard/sorcerer spells of specific schools as the Tasha’s lists allow?

In my humblest of opinions (unironically), draconic sorcerer is supposed to be pretty "baseline," so for that one I'd allow substituting ONLY sorcerer spells, but of any school.

Everyone else I'd say no substitutions.