Applied demonology: discussion of Daemonology and You: jiriku's guide to binding...

[MaxWilson]

Here's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571822-Daemonology-and-You-jiriku-s-guide-to-binding-demons-devils-and-other-fiends) an old thread that IMO is worth more attention and discussion: a nice compendium of available fiends for summoning and some of their more interesting traits.

Daemonology and You: jiriku's guide to binding demons, devils, and other fiends (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571822-Daemonology-and-You-jiriku-s-guide-to-binding-demons-devils-and-other-fiends)

Others have observed previously that Chasmes are awesome and this is true: (1) debilitating crit-enabling aura, (2) hits like a truck, and (3) although they are glass cannons, in this application their relative fragility is actually a plus. (They last long enough to soak up some hits while doing a lot of damage and knocking enemies unconscious, but they're not hard to put down afterwards). Furthermore, (4) their blindsight goes well with heavy obscurement if other PCs are already concentrating on such (e.g warlocks, shadow monks, Alert eldritch knights, moon druids in certain forms, tiny servants) or if you cast Pyrotechnics (no concentration necessary).

There are some other interesting combos too, e.g. summon a Glabrezu with an 8th level spell slot and then immediately have them cast another 8th level spell (Power Word Stun) and speak their true name, and in a way you've doubled your 8th level slots for this fight.

One of my favorite things about that thread is that it helped me realize that you don't actually need to be a Shepherd Druid or a True Polymorph caster in order to get Planar Binding minions who can do magical weapon damage--Armanites and Black Abishai do the job just fine too.

And Black Abishai scale well because they can generate Darkness which other Abishai can benefit from, as well as any temporary summons like Chasmes and Alert PCs or moon druids in forms with blindsight. If you're using Tasha's rules this could get even better under Tasha's rules because Blindsight is also accessible via Blindfighting Fighting Style--if you wanted to build a whole Blindfighting party you could get a LOT of mileage out of simple spells like Darkness and Fog Cloud. It's the next best thing to Greater Invisibility for everybody all the time.)
Black Abishai are relatively fragile, but this matters less for Planar Bound summons than it does for enemy monsters, because PCs and long-term summons working for PCs have access to crazy-good healing like precast Goodberries and Extended Aura of Vitality. With "only" 58 HP but also resistance to nonmagical weapon attacks and cold, plus immunity to to fire, acid, and poison and the poisoned condition, plus magic resistance and bonus action Hide (Stealth +6) in dim light or darkness, a Black Abishai is about as durable as a Tier 2 Raging non-Reckless Barbarian and considerably sneakier. Even if one takes ~90-100 HP of damage from a pair of fire giant crits or something (reduced down to 45-50 HP because of resistance), it should normally still be possible to pull them out of combat and heal them back up to full afterwards, instead of losing your 1000 gp investment. Conversely, against weapon-resistant or -immune foes like Glabrezus, Rakshasas, and Liches, the Abishai will be doing full damage, unlike Earth Elementals or in some cases even Fire Elementals. Anyway, in my mind this makes it well worth investing in a couple of Black Abishai minions once you hit 11th level or so, despite their low-ish HP.
What observations do you have to share about applied demonology?

[Bilbron]

Here's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571822-Daemonology-and-You-jiriku-s-guide-to-binding-demons-devils-and-other-fiends) an old thread that IMO is worth more attention and discussion: a nice compendium of available fiends for summoning and some of their more interesting traits.

Awesome, very excited to read through this! Much obliged :-)

[MaxWilson]

Oh, I forgot to say: warlocks get a LOT more fun if you play them as summoners. I've done a House Lyrandar Hexblade before (for Conjure Minor Elemental, Conjure Elemental), and the combination of Eldritch Blast invocations plus a nice meaty elemental tank to hide behind is fantastic. I imagine that a Summon Greater Demon V would be quite a lot of fun too (Chasme or Vrock or Dybbuk or Babau or Shadow Demon or Barlgura, depending on situation), although obviously that's more like dropping a bomb than gaining a hour-long minion.

I'm not normally a fan of pure-classed warlocks but a demonologist is both very thematic and sounds mechanically fun. Would play one, despite the inability to upcast past 5th level, just for the joy of demon spamming followed by demon slaying. "You, Shadow Demon! Speak your name and then go through this here dungeon wall and kill everything on the other side of it as sneakily but quickly as you know how." Then watch through your (Chainlock) Sprite familiar's eyes to see what happens.

[Unoriginal]

What observations do you have to share about applied demonology?

An old trick: when using Summon Greater Demon, you can use the first-turn-order to make the summoned Demon reveal their true name.

While it does cost you the one command the Demon can't resist, it does make it more likely for the PC to keep their summoned malevolent chaos (or perhaps chaotic malevolence) under control overall.

EDIT: well you knew this one already.

On that topic, I wonder how much of a game-changer for Fiend summoners of all ilks the Summon Fiend spell from the Tasha's will be.

[Bilbron]

An old trick: when using Summon Greater Demon, you can use the first-turn-order to make the summoned Demon reveal their true name.

While it does cost you the one command the Demon can't resist, it does make it more likely for the PC to keep their summoned malevolent chaos (or perhaps chaotic malevolence) under control overall.

EDIT: well you knew this one already.

On that topic, I wonder how much of a game-changer for Fiend summoners of all ilks the Summon Fiend spell from the Tasha's will be.

This spell becomes INSANE if you can get your Save DC up to 20 or 21. 20 is Vrock that can't make its save; 21 is Chasme that can't make its save.

My 10th level character has Save DC 17 and is three levels away from DC 18. And apparently Tasha's has spellbooks that give +1/+2/+3 on Save DCs, or a Robe of the Archmagi/Staff of the Magi/whatever if you have a generous DM for +2, and all of a sudden you're casting Summon Greater Demon every single combat and just wrecking stuff left and right.

If anyone knows of any other ways to increase Save DC, let me know. I'm super interested in a fully controlled Chasme, big time! It occurs to me that you can have a colleague cast Mind Sliver on it before its first turn, but that's super unreliable.

[Unoriginal]

If anyone knows of any other ways to increase Save DC, let me know. I'm super interested in a fully controlled Chasme, big time!

Rod of the Pact Keeper is the iconic item for that, but it is for Warlocks only. The version of Tomes and Manuals that augment your casting stat would also help.

[MaxWilson]

This spell becomes INSANE if you can get your Save DC up to 20 or 21. 20 is Vrock that can't make its save; 21 is Chasme that can't make its save.

I'm not sure how insane the Vrock thing really is--it's not like Vrocks are actually better than Earth Elementals in a fight once they've used up their AoE stun, they're just quicker to summon (1 action vs. 1 minute). Of course for standard warlocks, Earth Elemental spam isn't an option but Vrock spam is.

I think of it (preventing Vrocks and Chasmes from breaking free) as less than a game changer, more as mitigating a minor inconvenience of the spell. For Dybbuks and Shadow Demons it's more game-changing, but also harder to achieve without Planar Binding.

Also, sometimes it's actually to your advantage when a demon breaks free, so you can switch your concentration to something else while it continues attacking the nearest non-demons.


My 10th level character has Save DC 17 and is three levels away from DC 18. And apparently Tasha's has spellbooks that give +1/+2/+3 on Save DCs, or a Robe of the Archmagi/Staff of the Magi/whatever if you have a generous DM for +2, and all of a sudden you're casting Summon Greater Demon every single combat and just wrecking stuff left and right.

If anyone knows of any other ways to increase Save DC, let me know. I'm super interested in a fully controlled Chasme, big time! It occurs to me that you can have a colleague cast Mind Sliver on it before its first turn, but that's super unreliable.

You'll have Planar Binding long before you have DC 21.

Edit: but since you ask... 5E has its own version of the traditional stat-boost tomes (Manual of Bodily Exercise, etc.) so you could pick up +2 to Int and +1 to save DC that way. And once you hit 20th level, every so many XP (30,000 IIRC?) you will pick up either an Epic Boon or an extra ASI/feat, and that extra ASI is allowed to raise your stat past 20, IIRC up to 30.

But really just go with Planar Binding.

[BigRedJedi]

If anyone knows of any other ways to increase Save DC, let me know. I'm super interested in a fully controlled Chasme, big time! It occurs to me that you can have a colleague cast Mind Sliver on it before its first turn, but that's super unreliable.

Legendary Ioun Stone of Mastery, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Tomes that boost casting stat.


Edit: Ninja'd

[Bilbron]

Legendary Ioun Stone of Mastery, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Tomes that boost casting stat.


Edit: Ninja'dOoh, didn't know about the Ioun Stone! Thanks. Too bad it's Legendary, lol. My DM is still pretty stingy with Rare items (after a year and 10 levels, I'm attuned to Winged Boots, Helm of Telepathy, and Ring of Protection [though I do rotate in a Svirfneblin Spell Gem to fill it for my familiar, then reattune to ROP]).

[MaxWilson]

Ooh, didn't know about the Ioun Stone! Thanks. Too bad it's Legendary, lol. My DM is still pretty stingy with Rare items (after a year and 10 levels, I'm attuned to Winged Boots, Helm of Telepathy, and Ring of Protection [though I do rotate in a Svirfneblin Spell Gem to fill it for my familiar, then reattune to ROP]).

How stingy is your DM with gemstones? If you go by DMG tables, any CR 11+ treasure hoard has just under 20,000 gp on average in coinage and a good chance of 3-18 1000 gp gems, which is plenty to fuel a couple Planar Bindings (Chasmes/Air Elementals/Earth Elementals/Salamanders/etc.) to more easily take down another CR 11+ monster or monsters. 5th level Planar Binding isn't really worth doing usually, but 6th level lasts for 10 days, and 7th is a month.

[Bilbron]

How stingy is your DM with gemstones? If you go by DMG tables, any CR 11+ treasure hoard has just under 20,000 gp on average in coinage and a good chance of 3-18 1000 gp gems, which is plenty to fuel a couple Planar Bindings (Chasmes/Air Elementals/Earth Elementals/Salamanders/etc.) to more easily take down another CR 11+ monster or monsters. 5th level Planar Binding isn't really worth doing usually, but 6th level lasts for 10 days, and 7th is a month.

Uh, wow! Nah, we're not that rich... we've mostly been on the run and ambushed all the time and never turning over any lairs. We just liquidated some Potions of Invisibility and my share was like 2,500 gp, which was the first gold I've gotten in like 4 months (blew my wad on consumables in last city we were in).

[JackPhoenix]

And once you hit 20th level, every so many XP (30,000 IIRC?) you will pick up either an Epic Boon or an extra ASI/feat, and that extra ASI is allowed to raise your stat past 20, IIRC up to 30.

That's half optional rule (epic boons, and even then, the players don't get to pick what boon they get, the GM does), half houserule (getting feats/ASI after level 20, and increasing stat limit above 20).

[Thunderous Mojo]

Thanks for sharing the link. That guide had quite a bit of effort put into it.

Casting Nystul's Magic Aura in conjunction with Planar Binding, allows you to bind, any creature.

The target of Nystul's Magic Aura does have to be willing, but there are a multitude of ways to accomplish that. Nystul's lasts for 24 hours, which is more then sufficient to cast Magic Circle and Planar Binding.

Polymorph a creature into a toad, Nystul's Magic Aura it into a fiend and Planar Bind it.

[MaxWilson]

That's half optional rule (epic boons, and even then, the players don't get to pick what boon they get, the GM does), half houserule (getting feats/ASI after level 20, and increasing stat limit above 20).

Everything in the DMG is "optional" but it's not from Chapter 9: Dungeon Master's Workshop with all the optional rules modules. It's in Chapter 7: Treasure. It's as optional as the existence of Vorpal Swords and Wands of Web.

The relevant rules text is on DMG 230:

Alternatives to Epic Boons

You might decide to grant one of the following rewards to a 20th level character, instead of awarding an epic boon. These two options can be awarded to a character more than once.

Ability Score Improvement. The character can increase one ability score by 2 or increase two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can now be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 30.

New Feat. The character gains a new feat chosen by the player, but subject to your approval.


=============================


Thanks for sharing the link. That guide had quite a bit of effort put into it.

Casting Nystul's Magic Aura in conjunction with Planar Binding, allows you to bind, any creature.

The target of Nystul's Magic Aura does have to be willing, but there are a multitude of ways to accomplish that. Nystul's lasts for 24 hours, which is more then sufficient to cast Magic Circle and Planar Binding.

Polymorph a creature into a toad, Nystul's Magic Aura it into a fiend and Planar Bind it.

I don't see anything in Nystul's that allows that to work. Nystul's gives false information to spells, it doesn't make spells more efficacious.

You place an illusion on a creature or an object you touch so that divination spells reveal false information about it. The target can be a willing creature or an object that isn’t being carried or worn by another creature.

When you cast the spell, choose one or both of the following effects. The effect lasts for the duration. If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled.

False Aura. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects, such as Detect Magic, that detect magical auras. You can make a nonmagical object appear magical, a magical object appear nonmagical, or change the object’s magical aura so that it appears to belong to a specific school of magic that you choose. When you use this effect on an object, you can make the false magic apparent to any creature that handles the item.

Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.

Planar Binding isn't a detection spell or similar to the trigger of a Symbol spell, it's a coercion spell. I don't think that final sentence is meant to be read out of context.

[Unoriginal]

Casting Nystul's Magic Aura in conjunction with Planar Binding, allows you to bind, any creature.

The target of Nystul's Magic Aura does have to be willing, but there are a multitude of ways to accomplish that. Nystul's lasts for 24 hours, which is more then sufficient to cast Magic Circle and Planar Binding.

Polymorph a creature into a toad, Nystul's Magic Aura it into a fiend and Planar Bind it.

The "Mask" feature of Nystul's Magic Aura only work on spells and effects that detect the creature's nature.


You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell.

You can't use it to make a creature a valid target for a spell or effect where being a certain type is a requirement to the spell or effect functioning.

For example: you could use Nystul's Magic Aura to make a goat go through a "no Beast allowed" ward, but you couldn't use it to make the goat "count as an humanoid" if you wanted to activate an evil altar who requires an humanoid sacrifice to start.

Fooling the detectors don't change the actual nature of the target.

Same way that you can use illusions to make a wooden log appears to be a gold ingot to even the best jeweler in the Material Plane, that doesn't mean you can then melt it down and make jewels out of it. Well, a lvl 14 Illusionist could, but only until the log stops qualifying for the illusion spells cast on it.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Fooling the detectors don't change the actual nature of the target.


Perfect! The idea in this context is Polymorph a difficult to capture Fiend, into a more malleable form. The Fiend, might currently be a Beast, via Polymorph, but if it is still counts as a Fiend, even while in froggy form, even better.

The whole section from Nystul's is:
Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.

I have never had a DM say no to using Nystul's/Magic Circle combo.

This line from Nystul's:
You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment

Plus, this line from Planar Binding:
With this spell, you attempt to bind a Celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service.

Should lead to Planar Binding treating the target as if they were of the appropriate creature type to be affected by Planar Binding.

[MaxWilson]

Perfect! The idea in this context is Polymorph a difficult to capture Fiend, into a more malleable form. The Fiend, might currently be a Beast, via Polymorph, but if it is still counts as a Fiend, even while in froggy form, even better.

Hold on. Polymorph isn't Nystul's Magic Aura. It does change the creature's nature, temporarily, into that of a beast.

Originally you said to Polymorph some other creature into a toad, then Nystul's that toad to register as a Fiend, and then Planar Bind it. Nystul's doesn't do anything, so it's still a beast, so Planar Binding is illegal even if it was a Fiend to begin with. You'd be better off not Polymorphing it at all (unless you follow up by having someone else True Polymorph it into an Abyssal Wretch or something, at which point you can drop your Polymorph as irrelevant and commerce Planar Binding).


The whole section from Nystul's is:
Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.

I have never had a DM say no to using Nystul's/Magic Circle combo.

This line from Nystul's:
You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment

Plus, this line from Planar Binding:
With this spell, you attempt to bind a Celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service.

Should lead to Planar Binding treating the target as if they were of the appropriate creature type to be affected by Planar Binding.

I don't think that line from Nystul's is meant to be read out of context from the other line that comes right before it, saying which spells it affects. Magic Circle and Planar Binding aren't detection spells. Just like trying to cast Hold Person on what turns out to be a vampire instead of a humanoid, the Planar Binding will simply fail.

I don't want to clog up this thread with arguments over RAW, so let's just note that this is something that could work ("ask your DM"), and move on. I for one won't discuss the Nystul's/Planar Binding interaction any further in this thread.

[Unoriginal]

Perfect! The idea in this context is Polymorph a difficult to capture Fiend, into a more malleable form. The Fiend, might currently be a Beast, via Polymorph, but if it is still counts as a Fiend, even while in froggy form, even better.

No, Polymorph changes the nature of the creature. It's a transformation spell, Nystul's Magic Aura isn't a transformation spell, and it doesn't the nature of the target.


This line from Nystul's:
You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment

Plus, this line from Planar Binding:
With this spell, you attempt to bind a Celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service.

Should lead to Planar Binding treating the target as if they were of the appropriate creature type to be affected by Planar Binding.

No. You can't ignore lines of the spells. Nystul's Magic Aura explicitly only work on spells and magic effects that are about *detecting* the nature of the target, without changing the nature of the target.


I for one won't discuss the Nystul's/Planar Binding interaction any further in this thread.

Good idea. I won't discuss it further either.

[Hellpyre]

Perfect! The idea in this context is Polymorph a difficult to capture Fiend, into a more malleable form. The Fiend, might currently be a Beast, via Polymorph, but if it is still counts as a Fiend, even while in froggy form, even better.

The whole section from Nystul's is:
Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.

I have never had a DM say no to using Nystul's/Magic Circle combo.
Possibly because Magic Circle specifically check for a type during the spell effect, which is what Nystul's Magic Aura is supposed to fool. And you can only use Nystul's Aura on a willing creature, anyways.

EDIT for clarity: Really, even this shouldn't work, since Nystul's is really only meant to feed false information to divinations. But at least it is something I could understand a DM being open to.

This line from Nystul's:
You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment

Plus, this line from Planar Binding:
With this spell, you attempt to bind a Celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service.

Should lead to Planar Binding treating the target as if they were of the appropriate creature type to be affected by Planar Binding.

No, because the spell can't target the creature if it isn't actually that type. And again, you need something willing to be affected, so you could probably skip the binding and just ask the creature directly.

[JackPhoenix]

And again, you need something willing to be affected, so you could probably skip the binding and just ask the creature directly.

Planar Binding has the advantage of extending the duration of the summoning spell. You may try to make some deal with the summoned creature or otherwise convince it to serve you, but it'll still disappear in about a hour when the spell that summoned it ends. PB prevents that.

On a semi-related note, if Metamagic Adept made it to TCoE in the same form as presented in the UA, you can pick Extend option to finally make the timing of binding summons work RAW without the need for Wish or multiclassing.

[MaxWilson]

On a semi-related note, if Metamagic Adept made it to TCoE in the same form as presented in the UA, you can pick Extend option to finally make the timing of binding summons work RAW without the need for Wish or multiclassing.

AFAICT it's already (barely) long enough by RAW, but yes, others may disagree, and if your DM is the type to interpret a 1 hour casting time as just barely longer than a 1 hour duration (so that the creature vanishes a fraction of a second before Planar Binding completes), Extending the duration to 2 hours would solve that problem.

Ask your DM if Extend is necessary.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I don't think that line from Nystul's is meant to be read out of context from the other line that comes right before it, saying which spells it affects. Magic Circle and Planar Binding aren't detection spells.

The question that is, seemingly, raised, is what is the difference between the creature type limitations of Planar Binding, and the creature type triggering conditions of spells like Forbiddance, or Symbol?

If NMA,(Nystul's Magic Aura), can fool the creature detection magic of a 7th level Symbol spell, why is a Channel Divinity turning power, or Magic Circle different?
NMA is intended to defeat the "detection protocol" of Magic, and create a false positive.

If Divine Sense is fooled, if a Symbol of Death is fooled, why would a Divine Smite used by a Paladin that attacked a "Fiend",( that was just a commoner under a NMA spell), somehow divine the truth of matters?

You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell

The verbiage "such as", does not indicate an exhaustive list, it is a representational, and illustrative listing. NMA will fool Magic related to detecting creature type...wether that is dedicated detection magic like Divine Sense, or Detect Magic, or short circuiting the detection prowess of magical land mines like a Symbol of Death.


Now if I attempted to use the NMA and Planar Binding combo and the DM gave a response like Unoriginals stating that Planar Binding's Magic will only work on an actual Fiend, Celestial, or Fey, I would accept that ruling with no problems at all.

[MaxWilson]

The question that is, seemingly, raised, is what is the difference between the creature type limitations of Planar Binding, and the creature type triggering conditions of spells like Forbiddance, or Symbol?

If NMA,(Nystul's Magic Aura), can fool the creature detection magic of a 7th level Symbol spell, why is a Channel Divinity turning power, or Magic Circle different?

Please make a new thread for this discussion.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Mea Culpa MaxWilson...(One post over the line into being a non-sequitur).
Further NMA discussion will be tabled.

More in line with the topic...Clerics have both Magic Circle and Planar Binding. Unfortunately, until Gate, there is no current way to have a
Cleric summon Fiends, outside Planar Ally.

Planar Ally has it's advantages, but the fact the summoned creature can essentially "swipe right" to your request, and the monetary cost involved are prohibiting factors.

Has anyone had any luck with cleric daemonolgists?

[Bilbron]

Mea Culpa MaxWilson...(One post over the line into being a non-sequitur).
Further NMA discussion will be tabled.

More in line with the topic...Clerics have both Magic Circle and Planar Binding. Unfortunately, until Gate, there is no current way to have a
Cleric summon Fiends, outside Planar Ally.

Planar Ally has it's advantages, but the fact the summoned creature can essentially "swipe right" to your request, and the monetary cost involved are prohibiting factors.

Has anyone had any luck with cleric daemonolgists?
It seems to me the easiest thing is to have a Cleric cast the Planar Binding and the wizard to summon the demon?

[JackPhoenix]

Planar Ally has it's advantages, but the fact the summoned creature can essentially "swipe right" to your request, and the monetary cost involved are prohibiting factors.

You also have no control over what creature you'll summon, even less than with other spells where you at least pick a CR: you contact an entity, and it sends whatever underling it feels like, even if you ask for someone specific. OTOH, that's not necessary a bad thing, as it means you can get stuff much more powerful than what other classes can get without Gate if you're on good terms with the boss.

[Scarytincan]

A useful thing to remember for summon greater demon is if you summon a Dybbuk it's a free dimension door for you for the same slot level, then u can unsummon it at the end of your turn before it gets a chance to save, or you can attempt to ddoor ur whole party before it breaks free, or you can ddoor a medium ally as a small race, from a distance no less. And all this on top of everything else this demon can do.

As for infernal calling in combat situations, I tend to find that anything a devil can do, a demon or elemental can do better. Remember elemental myrmidons also have magic weapons.

[Scarytincan]

It seems to me the easiest thing is to have a Cleric cast the Planar Binding and the wizard to summon the demon?

Or if there's no cleric, have a glyph of warding summon the demon and you cast the binding

[Hellpyre]

Planar Ally has it's advantages, but the fact the summoned creature can essentially "swipe right" to your request, and the monetary cost involved are prohibiting factors.

Has anyone had any luck with cleric daemonolgists?

Not a ton, but the overall effectiveness of it isn't too far off where it needs to be, if you build as a face and then acquaint yourself with a number of planar factions. Just summon something that is happy doing the thing you need them to do. A demon, for example, rarely needs much convincing to slaughter folks who are not actively aiding its designs. An earth elemental is generally going to be more-or-less happy to scout for minerals i the ground or burrow a tunnel.

It's not ideal (and doesn't come online as a concept for a while), but it can be done and remain effective.

[MaxWilson]

A useful thing to remember for summon greater demon is if you summon a Dybbuk it's a free dimension door for you for the same slot level, then u can unsummon it at the end of your turn before it gets a chance to save, or you can attempt to ddoor ur whole party before it breaks free, or you can ddoor a medium ally as a small race, from a distance no less. And all this on top of everything else this demon can do.

As for infernal calling in combat situations, I tend to find that anything a devil can do, a demon or elemental can do better. Remember elemental myrmidons also have magic weapons.

Small nitpick: if you unsummon it (cease concentration) at the end of your turn, the Dybbuk will not have acted yet, and you won't have Dimension Door'ed anywhere. You have to cease concentration at the end of the Dybbuk's turn. This makes Dimension Door via Dybbuk slower than using your own Dimension Door (if you're in danger from a monster and cast Summon Greater Demon (Dybbuk) to get yourself to safety, you could potentially take quite a lot of damage before the Dybbuk's initiative comes up).

Nevertheless it's a good thing to keep in mind as you're learning and preparing spells: Summon Greater Demon can sort of double as Dimension Door. Good tip!

[Scarytincan]

Small nitpick: if you unsummon it (cease concentration) at the end of your turn, the Dybbuk will not have acted yet, and you won't have Dimension Door'ed anywhere. You have to cease concentration at the end of the Dybbuk's turn. This makes Dimension Door via Dybbuk slower than using your own Dimension Door (if you're in danger from a monster and cast Summon Greater Demon (Dybbuk) to get yourself to safety, you could potentially take quite a lot of damage before the Dybbuk's initiative comes up).

Nevertheless it's a good thing to keep in mind as you're learning and preparing spells: Summon Greater Demon can sort of double as Dimension Door. Good tip!

Good catch, I meant the end of its turn sorry

[MaxWilson]

It's interesting to compare Summon Greater Demon to Polymorph because they are both 4th level spells for creating a tank, but the opportunity costs are different: Polymorph simultaneously protects and effectively temporarily eliminates a PC in order to produce a beast, while Summon Greater Demon temporarily summons a demon that is much weaker than the CR 7 Giant Ape or CR 8 T-Rex you could create with Polymorph. But what really matters is: Giant Ape stronger than PC + Demon together?

Let's do a quick check of two extremes |X| two extremes, using a cantrip-spewing Int 16 Wizard at the low end of DPR (even though a lore bard would be even worse) and an Action Surging Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Dex 18 Archery Fighter at the high end. We'll compare vs. glass cannons (a CR 5 Star Spawn Mangler, ignoring its hit-and-run potential) and bricks (a CR 4 Helmed Horror), using both a Babau (tanky but low DPR) and a Reckless Barlgura (kind of a glass cannon) in separate comparisons.

Edit: I realized after doing almost all the math that I'd forgotten about the Babau's Weakening Gaze. For the sake of my sanity I'm going to continue to ignore spellcasting and the Babau's weakening gaze so take these results with a graint of salt--actual damage taken by the PC team would be reduced somewhat.

Our contestants:

(1) Ray of Frost wizard (+6 for 2d8 (9)) plus Babau (+6 for 2d8+4 (17)). +82 HP at AC 16, with weapon resistance, so sort of like +164 HP (ignoring for now that some of those HP may turn against you if they live long enough).

(2) Ray of Frost wizard (+6 for 2d8 (9)) plus Barlgura (+7 with advantage for 2d10+2d6+12 (29)). +68 HP at AC 15 (with advantage).

(3) Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter (+4 for 3d6+42 (52.5)) plus Babau (+6 for 2d8+4 (17)). +82 HP at AC 16, with weapon resistance, so sort of like +164 HP.

(4) Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter (+4 for 3d6+42 (52.5)) plus Barlgura (+7 with advantage for 2d10+2d6+12 (29)). +68 HP at AC 15 (with advantage).

(5) That same wizard or fighter Polymorphed into a Giant Ape (+9 for 6d10+12 (45)). +157 HP at AC 12 (no chance of it being turned against you, but ignoring for now that if nasty things happen to the ape they happen also to the wizard, and ignoring the chance of losing concentration on a hit because maybe another wizard is doing the concentrating).

Glass cannons:

Against a Star Spawn Mangler (AC 14, 71 HP):

Team #1 does 17.80 DPR, killing it in 4 rounds, and taking 6 + 3*(avg(2,6)) = 18 claw attacks on average in return, with the first six at advantage. Weapon resistance halves the non-psychic damage. 6x +7 (adv) for (d8+4)/2+2d6, plus 12x +7 for (d8+4)/2, yields 91 damage vs. the Babau's AC 16. The Babau is probably dead and the wizard may have taken some damage too.

Team #2 does 35.35 DPR, killing it in 2 rounds, and taking ten claw attacks on average in return. 10x +7 (adv) for d8+4+2d6 yields 147.22 damage against the Reckless Barlgura's AC 15, so the Barlgura is thoroughly dead and the wizard may be ripped to shreds too.

Team #3's Fighter Action Surges and they do 60.50 damage on average in round #1, not quite enough to one-round kill the Mangler, but let's say the Mangler is only 50% likely to get a second 2-6 attacks. The Babau will take 65.88 damage on average, surviving, and the Fighter is unharmed.

Team #4 does 78.06 damage in round #1, so the Mangler gets only one round to attack back, inflicting 84.85 damage and killing the Barlgura.

Team #5 (Giant Ape) will do 37.65 DPR on average, killing the Mangler in two rounds. The Mangler will get ten attacks back on average, six with advantage and extra damage, inflicting 106.15 damage in return. The Giant Ape survives with about 50 HP left over.

Turning a fighter into a Giant Ape costs you 22.86 points of DPR relative to summoning a Babau, and 40.41 DPR relative to summoning a Barlgura. However, turning a wizard into a Giant Ape gives you a 19.85 DPR boost relative to summoning a Babau, and a tiny 2.3 DPR boost relative to summoning a Barlgura.

In overall tactical terms (not just DPR), a Giant Ape will survive easily (if concentration is not lost), a wizard hiding behind a Babau will survive with some wounds, a wizard hiding behind a Barlgura will die messily. Glass cannon vs. glass cannon goes to the biggest glass cannon, which is the Mangler. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Fighter benefits more from a tank than from a glass cannon, but either way the Fighter himself survives. Once we factor concentration into this scenario, a Babau is probably a wizard's best strategy, especially if there's a Fighter in the party to do the damage.

Tanks:

Against a Helmed Horror (AC 20, 60 HP, nonmagical weapon resistance):

Team #1 does 6.63 DPR, killing it in 9 rounds, and taking 41.63 damage to the Babau in return. (Weapon resistance makes this one a slog, so the Babau has a good chance to break free eventually and you'll probably have to kill it afterwards--maybe even helping the Helmed Horror kill it!)

Team #2 does 13.6 DPR, killing it in about 4.5 rounds, and taking 68.21 average damage to the Barlgura, just barely killing it on average.

Team #3 does 14.09 average damage on the first round (Action Surge), and 9.66 damage each round after that, killing it in six rounds and taking 27.75 damage to the Babau in return. (I think this means you shouldn't bother to Action Surge--save your Action Surge for a softer target.) There's a decent chance you'll wind up fighting the Babau.

Team #4 does 21.06 damage on round 1 and 16.64 thereafter, killing it in three rounds on average, and taking 45.47 damage to the Barlgura in the process. Again, probably not worth Action Surging here, you're just saving the Barlgura some HP.

Team #5 does 11.82 damage per round with giant ape fists, killing it in about 5 rounds and taking 66 damage in the process, leaving behind a mostly-healthy Giant Ape.

In this fight, fighter + demon do 20% to 78% more DPR than Giant Ape (would be an even bigger difference with a magic weapon on the fighter), and even wizard + Barlgura manages to outdamage the Giant Ape, although wizard + Babau comes in at barely half the ape's damage.

This one's a game of attrition, and no one is seriously at risk except the Barlgura (who dies if fighting with the wizard, is heavily wounded if fighting alongside the fighter). Instead as the fight stretches on, risk of losing control of the demon looms larger, as does the question of how reuse you can get out of this spell after combat. The wizard will probably want a Barlgura here or a Giant Ape if there's a way to avoid concentration issues (casting it on a Lore Bard, etc.), especially if there's an opportunity to keep using the ape until its HP run out. Fighter would rather have a Babau, and together they could probably take on 2 Helmed Horrors simultaneously.

Conclusion:

Polymorph and Summon Greater Demon are roughly competitive, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the opportunity cost of Polymorphing is greater for a Fighter, so Summoner Greater Demon is a good spell for mostly-warrior-parties so you can avoid Polymorphing someone who is actually good with a weapon into a partially-redundant Giant Ape. In a mostly-caster party, Polymorph is probably better unless either (1) the fight is tough enough that everybody is busy casting real spells instead of cantrips and doesn't want to ape out, or (2) the enemy is deadly enough that nobody wants to risk getting caught with a Giant Ape's saving throws against domination, mind blast, etc.

Polymorph is better against multiple easy fights. Summon Greater Demon might be better in extremely hard fights, especially if you leverage things like spellcasting and Weakening Gaze that I neglected in this analysis. Both are good and very versatile spells.


Plus these DPR formulas into https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle

Team #1 vs. Mangler
Damage inflicted: avg (att 14 6 2d8) + (att 14 6 2d8+8): 17.80,
Damage taken: avg (6.att 16 7a (d8+4/2)+2d6)+(12.att 16 7 (d8+4)/2): 91.00

Team #2 vs. Mangler
Damage inflicted: avg (att 14 6 2d8) + (att 14 7a 2d10+2d6+12): 35.35
Damage taken: avg 10.att 15 7a d8+4+2d6: 147.22

Team #3 vs. Mangler
Damage inflicted: avg (5.att 14 4 d6+14) + (att 14 6 2d8+8): 60.50,
Damage taken: avg (6.att 16 7a (d8+4/2)+2d6)+(2.att 16 7 (d8+4)/2): 65.88

Team #4 vs. Mangler
Damage inflicted: avg (5.att 14 4 d6+14) + (att 14 7a 2d10+2d6+12): 78.06
Damage taken: avg 6.att 16 7a d8+4+2d6: 84.85

Team #5 vs. Mangler
Damage inflicted: avg (2.att 14 9 3d10+6): 37.65
Damage taken: avg (6.att 16 7a d8+4+2d6)+(4.att 16 7 d8+4): 106.15

Team #1 vs. Helmed Horror
Damage inflicted: avg (att 20 6 2d8) + (2.att 20 6 1d8+4/2): 6.63,
Damage taken: avg 18.att 16 6 d8+4/2: 41.63

Team #2 vs. Helmed Horror
Damage inflicted: avg (att 20 6 2d8) + (2.att 20 7a 1d10+4/2) + (att 20 7a 2d6+4/2): 13.60,
Damage taken: avg 9.att 15 6a d8+4: 68.21

Team #3 vs. Helmed Horror
Damage inflicted round 1: avg (5.att 20 4 d6+14/2) + (2.att 20 6 1d8+4/2): 14.09,
Damage inflicted round 2+: avg (3.att 20 4 d6+14/2) + (2.att 20 6 1d8+4/2): 9.66,
Damage taken: avg 12.att 16 6 d8+4/2: 27.75

Team #4 vs. Helmed Horror
Damage inflicted round 1: avg (5.att 20 4 d6+14/2) + (2.att 20 7a 1d10+4/2) + (att 20 7a 2d6+4/2): 21.06
Damage inflicted round 2+: avg (3.att 20 4 d6+14/2) + (2.att 20 7a 1d10+4/2) + (att 20 7a 2d6+4/2): 16.64
Damage taken: avg 6.att 15 6a d8+4: 45.47

Team #5 vs. Helmed Horror
Damage inflicted: avg (2.att 20 9 3d10+6/2): 11.82
Damage taken: avg 10.att 12 6 d8+4: 66.00

[Bilbron]

It's interesting to compare Summon Greater Demon to Polymorph because they are both 4th level spells for creating a tank, but the opportunity costs are different: Polymorph simultaneously protects and effectively temporarily eliminates a PC in order to produce a beast, while Summon Greater Demon temporarily summons a demon that is much weaker than the CR 7 Giant Ape or CR 8 T-Rex you could create with Polymorph. But what really matters is: Giant Ape stronger than PC + Demon together?
Interesting analysis, but there are so many moving parts in a comparison like this that I think it's easy to be overly simplistic just for sake of managability. For example, I think this analysis heavily favors Great Ape because it focuses only on what the GA can offer, straight damage, whereas when I see Barlgura I'm all "Blindsight and poison immunity to combo with my familiar's Stinking Cloud, sweet," and when I see Babau I'm all "OMG Dispel Magic at will headlining a spell suite that includes Fear and Levitate?!? Man, should I get Devil's Sight with my next feat to combo with its Darkness?" I mean, a 4th level spell to get unlimited Dispel Magics is pretty amazing on its face, not even counting the Demonic combatant attached to it. I know you mention this at the end but I don't think just acknowledging that saves the preceding analysis.

My intuition here is that SGD is way more powerful for its versatility and the spell effects you can generate with it. Pretty new to the spell but the Babau just seems eyepopping to me and will probably lead with that, at DC 17 only 6.25% chance to lose control once I get its true name (even less if you factor in Chronal Shift) and having unlimited Dispel Magics on the field just seems insane in many situations. When no spells flying about and a strictly martial encounter, Barlgura not too bad as highly controllable (2.25% chance to save with truename at DC 17) and can leverage its blindsight with obscurement. And upcasting for a Chasme has obvious benefits.

Polymorph, I find, also has a hugely negative metagaming component. Powergamers are all "turn me into a Great Ape? Why are you even asking?!?!?" but everyone else is just trying to do a bit and being a GA doesn't fit the script. To me Polymorph only has value as a quasi-heal spell meaning that it just sits in my back pocket 90% of encounters and I just keep staring at it on my prep list and asking myself "why?". I think I'm going to just drop it next level to prep two 5th level spells instead.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting analysis, but there are so many moving parts in a comparison like this that I think it's easy to be overly simplistic just for sake of managability. For example, I think this analysis heavily favors Great Ape because it focuses only on what the GA can offer, straight damage, whereas when I see Barlgura I'm all "Blindsight and poison immunity to combo with my familiar's Stinking Cloud, sweet," and when I see Babau I'm all "OMG Dispel Magic at will headlining a spell suite that includes Fear and Levitate?!? Man, should I get Devil's Sight with my next feat to combo with its Darkness?" I mean, a 4th level spell to get unlimited Dispel Magics is pretty amazing on its face, not even counting the Demonic combatant attached to it. I know you mention this at the end but I don't think just acknowledging that saves the preceding analysis.

Yep, yep, yep, I totally agree. It's a simplistic analysis that I did mostly for my own curiosity, but also to put bounds on it: in the scenarios where the Babau is not clearly worse than the Great Ape, it's likely that it's actually quite a bit better. Although note that the Giant Ape is also better than this simplistic analysis showed, since it has an excellent Athletics skill (grapple, prone, shove), a climb speed, good mobility, and a missile weapon. Just as the Babau doesn't actually have to sit there in melee and simply attack, a Giant Ape has other options too including kiting and climbing a building and throwing airplanes rocks at the bad guys, and shoving them off the edge if they try to climb up too. Also if whoever you Polymorphed was wearing Mage Armor, the Giant Ape's AC goes up from 12 to 15, which is nice.

Or to put it differently: it's probably a pretty good strategy for a Warlock to cast Summon Greater Demon (Babau) and order the Babau to tank and cast Fear while he spams Eldritch Blast from behind! The DC is lower than casting Fear yourself, but that matters less than many people think, and you can be 90' behind the front lines and still deliver this Fear-by-proxy. (And if monsters are trained to "attack the spellcaster first," great! You just gave them an 82 HP spellcaster right on the front lines to attack.)

Summon Greater Demon has a reputation in some quarters as a bad, risky spell, but showing that it's in the same league as Polymorph ought to make people give it a second look.


My intuition here is that SGD is way more powerful for its versatility and the spell effects you can generate with it. Pretty new to the spell but the Babau just seems eyepopping to me and will probably lead with that, at DC 17 only 6.25% chance to lose control once I get its true name (even less if you factor in Chronal Shift) and having unlimited Dispel Magics on the field just seems insane in many situations. When no spells flying about and a strictly martial encounter, Barlgura not too bad as highly controllable (2.25% chance to save with truename at DC 17) and can leverage its blindsight with obscurement. And upcasting for a Chasme has obvious benefits.

Polymorph, I find, also has a hugely negative metagaming component. Powergamers are all "turn me into a Great Ape? Why are you even asking?!?!?" but everyone else is just trying to do a bit and being a GA doesn't fit the script. To me Polymorph only has value as a quasi-heal spell meaning that it just sits in my back pocket 90% of encounters and I just keep staring at it on my prep list and asking myself "why?". I think I'm going to just drop it next level to prep two 5th level spells instead.

I generally agree with all of this, though you should look hard at Dybbuks too.

There are plenty of ways to use Polymorph both defensively and offensively (I love potential for finding a big dumb monster like a Purple Worm, Polymorphing it into a frog, and then throwing it at another monster and releasing concentration: Purple Worm Grenade!). But it can be tricky to use well without exposing yourself to danger, and as you go up in level the downsides (vulnerability, opportunity cost) become more and more important. That's less true of Summon Greater Demon.

And I like the flavor of a demonologist (warlock). Contrast with shepherd druid, whose explicit fluff is all about wanting to cuddle and protect animals but whose implied fluff is actually about using them as expendable heat-seeking missiles. Using chaotic evil Tanar'ri as your expendable heat-seeking missiles, instead of elks and wolves and snakes and pixies, seems more fitting. Who cares if a demon dies a thousand deaths? Just make sure to take Repelling Blast and Lance of Lethargy for when they go hostile. :)

[Bilbron]

Summon Greater Demon has a reputation in some quarters as a bad, risky spell, but showing that it's in the same league as Polymorph ought to make people give it a second look.

I generally agree with all of this, though you should look hard at Dybbuks too.
Ah, I was unaware of that. Still pretty new to the D&D community and barely know the lingo, let alone common perspectives. SGD actually seems OP to me, so that common view is counterintuitive to my perspective.

The Dybbuk sure has an amazing suite of abilities! That +2 Cha and Magic Resistance worries me a bit but I'm sure I'll find it useful.

[Unoriginal]

Summon Greater Demon is """risky""", in the sense whatever amazing power you can get from it can turn against you and the party.

Now that doesn't mean the risk isn't worth it, or that it can't be mitigated, but some people consider it too chaotic to be worth the trouble.

Thing is you don't do demon summoning if you want to play it safe. That's kind of the whole point.

[Corran]

It's worth mentioning that sickening radiance deserves a place in the list of spells that the guide mentions. It can act as a cheaper/more reliable bestow curse for planar binding purposes (especially if we are talking about a fiend with magic resistance), though it wont work against any fiend that is immune to exhaustion (unlike bestow curse). Potentially you can stack both of them, but I cannot think why this could be beneficial in any significant way.
You are aiming for exhaustion level 3, for the disadvantage to saves, but you definitely dont want to go all the way and kill it before binding it. So it needs to be handled with care. On that note, I can imagine a DM having fun with a cunning fiend that knows what's up when this is happening. Having the fiend pretend to be more hurt that it actually is, and adding that element of extra risk in the binding efforts of the pc's, simply by not knowing for sure if you have to press harder with SR or not. Lesson 3 of demonology. Today you'll learn to identify signs of if your spells are actually working on the fiends or if they are just pretending they are affected. So, proficiency in the relevant skill check for those who took that course? something like that could be a good way to rationalize why your character might be using proficiency in a check the DM calls for in such an occassion

[Scarytincan]

Also remember on top of the 84 HP babau has resistance to non magical weapons for tanking. And as you can upcast things get better. The draegloth is a combat monster and pretty easy to control.

And a lot of the risk of losing control can be mitigated by where you summon them, as they specifically attack the nearest non demon upon breaking free. And you can use that circle of blood to block a doorway to retreat (or possibly summon them into, depending on your needs)

[MaxWilson]

Ah, I was unaware of that. Still pretty new to the D&D community and barely know the lingo, let alone common perspectives. SGD actually seems OP to me, so that common view is counterintuitive to my perspective.

Yeah, I wasn't saying I agreed, I was pointing out why I disagreed.

One opinion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?485736-Selling-your-Soul-at-a-Premium-The-Warlock-s-Guide-to-Power):

Summon Greater Demon (XGtE): What a Great Idea™! This one starts out better and has potentially worse consequences. I cannot recommend it in good conscience, although I heartily recommend it in bad conscience.

Another opinion (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6vBhvie18hFDmnom5lMv3zTj1nYUkvC8UxH0ngZWXQ/edit#):


Summon Greater Demon (a vial of blood from a humanoid killed in the past 24 hours) [C - 1 hour] – Jeremy Crawford did say that he was interested in having fiend-summoning spells that were just as much a risk to the caster as their foes, and this one is more in that wheelhouse. Too bad he forgot to actually make this spell any good. Summoning a CR5 demon (not fiend) from a 4th-level spell slot to do your bidding is no joke. But it gets a Charisma save every round before it goes uncontrolled and starts attacking non-demons, making even the demon unlikely to last past combat. Even if you do take out the caster early, it sticks around for another 1d6 rounds. Start preparing banishment and/or dispel magic, people.

Once again, if your DM thinks they’re being ‘clever’ by using this blatantly metagaming spell, scratch out the magic circle protecting the caster who oh-so-conveniently scored themselves a bottle of humanoid blood. Don’t worry, they’ll always have one. Like I said, it’s a metagaming spell designed to abuse the narrative asymmetry between PCs and NPCs.

That said, there’s a way to redeem this spell: per the Monster Manual, you can force charmed demons to tell you their truename.


On the other hand, there are certainly people who think it's great already.

Opinion: (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bGlFsSDqGb5uIgeeO2ULtDFECzdlV6tI-d6eZn_reEQ/edit#)

Summon greater demon (Cnj|--|--)(C): Slightly more reliable than the lesser demon version, and overall still useful if they break free depending on positioning. Barlgura (MM) is very strong and Babau (Volo’s) has some useful innate spellcasting. Overall a really solid spell, that definitely competes with Conjure elemental. I also like its rank-up potential. It won’t provide you with the same long-term benefit as conjure elemental, though, as it will save long before the hour duration is up.

And another: (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P9k-CfABv5rCcBebK5G5-RAY_VDzs3NGdoWPQpAlKXQ/edit#)

Summon Greater Demon (Conjuration): This spell basically fixes the problems of Summon Lesser Demon. For an hour you get an admittedly pretty annoyed demon minion who has to follow your commands. The demon gets charisma saves to break free of your control (so pick a demon with lousy charisma saves like the barlgura and make sure it tells you it’s true name straightaway, which gives it disadvantage on the saves.) No, you can’t summon a Balor with this thing, even at higher levels slots, but the demons are actually not unreasonable. Basically, it’s like adding an extra party member.

I lean more towards the latter opinion: it's a good spell, even if the demon escapes your control, because the demon's actions are predictable (attack any non-demons) and therefore exploitable. The demon isn't strong enough to give the party any problems killing it afterward, so the chance of escape is IMO mostly just flavor unless you are trying to use it outside of immediate combat (like a Dybbuk or Shadow Demon scout).

[Unoriginal]

I lean more towards the latter opinion: it's a good spell, even if the demon escapes your control, because the demon's actions are predictable (attack any non-demons) and therefore exploitable. The demon isn't strong enough to give the party any problems killing it afterward, so the chance of escape is IMO mostly just flavor unless you are trying to use it outside of immediate combat (like a Dybbuk or Shadow Demon scout).

While it's true the Demon isn't strong enough to give the party problems afterward, if it happens in the middle of a fight the PCs are already at disadvantage it's basically "Summon another CR 5+ enemy", so it can easily turn into a domino effect.

It's mitigated by the fact you can diminish that risk simply by having the Demon close of the enemies and far from the group enough that it'll still attack the enemies over the party when it breaks free, but sometime that's not possible. I pity the party who was using a Vrock to hold the line in a corridor with the casters behind the Demon.

In the end it's only dangerous if you're not careful while in an already dangerous situation. Or if you can't afford to be careful.


Speaking of Summon Lesser Demons: while not the greatest spell of its level, it shouldn't be underestimated. I've seen a whole pack of Abyssal Chickens devour a Nightmare from right under its Nazurgon rider in a couple of rounds, while the Nightmare was flying toward PCs.

[MaxWilson]

While it's true the Demon isn't strong enough to give the party problems afterward, if it happens in the middle of a fight the PCs are already at disadvantage it's basically "Summon another CR 5+ enemy", so it can easily turn into a domino effect.

It's mitigated by the fact you can diminish that risk simply by having the Demon close of the enemies and far from the group enough that it'll still attack the enemies over the party when it breaks free, but sometime that's not possible. I pity the party who was using a Vrock to hold the line in a corridor with the casters behind the Demon.

If the Vrock is "holding a line" then presumably there are enemies attacking the Vrock in melee. In order for the casters to be in danger, they need to be stacked up right behind the Vrock, also within 5' of it. That was pretty dumb of them.

Even if you have to stack up behind the Vrock (e.g. you're in a janitor's closet instead of a corridor), you can still minimize the danger by (1) using a circle of blood to protect the guy closest to the Vrock (if you cast the spell using blood instead of a focus), or (2) Dispel Magic (dispelling Summon Greater Demon) if the Vrock turns against you.


In the end it's only dangerous if you're not careful while in an already dangerous situation. Or if you can't afford to be careful.

Speaking of Summon Lesser Demons: while not the greatest spell of its level, it shouldn't be underestimated. I've seen a whole pack of Abyssal Chickens devour a Nightmare from right under its Nazurgon rider in a couple of rounds, while the Nightmare was flying toward PCs.

I'd never heard of Abyssal Chickens before this post. Googling (apparently they're from Descent Into Avernus), I agree that they have pretty good stats. Flying, two attacks for 10 total damage, decent to-hit, blindsight, enough AC to make their blindsight relevant, enough HP to occasionally survive an attack. If there were any way to be fairly sure that you were going to get 8 Abyssal Chickens from Summon Lesser Demon it would be a good spell. Even 4 Abyssal Chickens would be an okay spell. But you may just end up with 2 CR 1 Quasits, each of them only a little stronger than a single Abyssal Chicken despite the CR difference...

[Corran]

Oooh, here is an idea about SGD. Since the demon sticks around for 1d6 rounds after concentration is dropped, you could potentially have more than one demon fighting during the same encounter (of course, only one of them is going to be controlled at a time). Could be good for long fights that are not going our way, assuming we have no better ways to spend our spell slots fast during combat (or before combat) and no appropriate concentration spell already running.

I dont know. If you are cornered by enemies you dont think you can easily win against when you are looking at your available options, and there is no way you can think for everyone to escape, thus it might be worth sticking around for a little while before bailing, it might be worth spending a few turns trying to even the odds by spamming a few demons. Assuming your are not in a situation where you are fighting against demons, you could even set a contingency like ''if there are X demons present, dimension door away'' or something. Leaves you with one more slot to use for SGD this way, although the higher X, the higher the risk you are taking (so probably must be a build with adequate defenses to last these few rounds).

Edit: Shame that sorcerers dont get this spell. Could be fun for a sneaky subtle sorcerer who'd want to spend a day off from adventuring productively.

[Cls2Edg]

Can demons ever improve their CR rating? My warlock is in the position (pending DM approval)to be able to summon the same shadow demon by name with each use of Summon Greater Demon. Shadow Demons are cr4. Once i am able to summon a cr5, is there anything that says we cant bump his AC and HP’s up to match other cr5’s levels? No other extra skills or abilities, just a bit more sturdy. It would not be a deal breaker if they can’t, but for RP’ing purposes it would be cool to bring the same demon along for the long term ride.

[MaxWilson]

Can demons ever improve their CR rating? My warlock is in the position (pending DM approval)to be able to summon the same shadow demon by name with each use of Summon Greater Demon. Shadow Demons are cr4. Once i am able to summon a cr5, is there anything that says we cant bump his AC and HP’s up to match other cr5’s levels? No other extra skills or abilities, just a bit more sturdy. It would not be a deal breaker if they can’t, but for RP’ing purposes it would be cool to bring the same demon along for the long term ride.

There is no built-in way, but you're already doing custom stuff with DM approval. (You couldn't normally summon a specific demon.) Might as well ask the DM if further customization is on the table to make the first customization stay relevant.

Note though that there's not much numerical difference anyway between CR 4 and CR 5. You might barely notice the difference in DPR or longevity.

[Unoriginal]

Can demons ever improve their CR rating? My warlock is in the position (pending DM approval)to be able to summon the same shadow demon by name with each use of Summon Greater Demon. Shadow Demons are cr4. Once i am able to summon a cr5, is there anything that says we cant bump his AC and HP’s up to match other cr5’s levels? No other extra skills or abilities, just a bit more sturdy. It would not be a deal breaker if they can’t, but for RP’ing purposes it would be cool to bring the same demon along for the long term ride.

Generally, improving in power as a Demon means either becoming another type of Demon (the most common), training to develop a skillset (far less common), or getting lucky with one of the random mutations the Abyss or a stronger Demon (like a Sibriex) inflicts on them (which is random).

[Bilbron]

I lean more towards the latter opinion: it's a good spell, even if the demon escapes your control, because the demon's actions are predictable (attack any non-demons) and therefore exploitable. The demon isn't strong enough to give the party any problems killing it afterward, so the chance of escape is IMO mostly just flavor unless you are trying to use it outside of immediate combat (like a Dybbuk or Shadow Demon scout).
Nice, I appreciate you digging those up! Interesting reactions. My own Deep Dive is turning up OP applications left and right.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to use it personally. My DM has indicated there would be severe unintended consequences for regular use of this spell, as this campaign is particularly Demon/Devil focused and we've already developed a reputation and history with them. Pretty disappointing but such is D&D!

[MaxWilson]

Nice, I appreciate you digging those up! Interesting reactions. My own Deep Dive is turning up OP applications left and right.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to use it personally. My DM has indicated there would be severe unintended consequences for regular use of this spell, as this campaign is particularly Demon/Devil focused and we've already developed a reputation and history with them. Pretty disappointing but such is D&D!

Don't worry, elementals are fun too. Check out Salamanders and Earth Elementals.

[Bilbron]

Don't worry, elementals are fun too. Check out Salamanders and Earth Elementals.Earth Ele is super sweet, for sure. That one minute cast + 1 hour duration is a real turnoff though, really limits its applications unless you're clearing out a space and we never do that. Otherwise anticipating when to use it makes it far less valuable to me than a 1 action cast.

I'll probably go with Summon Undead cast at 4th level since Summon Aberrant got nerfed. I like the Skeletal Bolt (150' range and 2d8+7 x2, cast at 4th level) and always appreciate something that can stand in front of me to provide half-cover (throw in high AC/Shield/Obscurement/Alert for strong defense against attack rolls). I love a spell that provides both offense and defense.

[MaxWilson]

Earth Ele is super sweet, for sure. That one minute cast + 1 hour duration is a real turnoff though, really limits its applications unless you're clearing out a space and we never do that. Otherwise anticipating when to use it makes it far less valuable to me than a 1 action cast.

Out of curiosity, when you get in a fight, what does it tend to look like from a terms of engagement perspective? Are you usually being ambushed? Is there something that prevents the party from e.g. withdrawing behind a Stone Shaped wall to or into a Rope Trick to wait for enemies to go away and/or cast buff spells? (I know you can't cast Earth Elemental inside of a Rope Trick but Air might be possible, and anyway I'm interested just in general.)

[Bilbron]

Out of curiosity, when you get in a fight, what does it tend to look like from a terms of engagement perspective? Are you usually being ambushed? Is there something that prevents the party from e.g. withdrawing behind a Stone Shaped wall to or into a Rope Trick to wait for enemies to go away and/or cast buff spells? (I know you can't cast Earth Elemental inside of a Rope Trick but Air might be possible, and anyway I'm interested just in general.)Mostly ambushes... we've been transporting an artifact through the Underdark to the surface, so mostly on the run and having random encounters, or we're being ambushed by Drow or Devils/Demons all the time.

Yes, what prevents it is that they are all flavor characters, including a Chaotic Neutral that literally never does anything that makes sense. And one thing that unites them is that they HATE LISTENING TO ME (seriously, "consent issues" have been raised so I literally do not make any suggestions to them in combat, not one). Being that I'm low EQ and a different generation, sometimes they have reactions like I've experienced here on unfortunate occasion.

[MaxWilson]

Mostly ambushes... we've been transporting an artifact through the Underdark to the surface, so mostly on the run and having random encounters, or we're being ambushed by Drow or Devils/Demons all the time.

Yes, what prevents it is that they are all flavor characters, including a Chaotic Neutral that literally never does anything that makes sense. And one thing that unites them is that they HATE LISTENING TO ME (seriously, "consent issues" have been raised so I literally do not make any suggestions to them in combat, not one). Being that I'm low EQ and a different generation, sometimes they have reactions like I've experienced here on unfortunate occasion.

Ah, got it. Reminds me of that discussion on offense and nuclear weapons--even though defense is generally cheaper to acquire in 5E than offense (e.g. there aren't any offensive spells which triple your DPR but there are spells which cut your damage taken to 1/3), one of the great advantages of offense is that it doesn't require as much cooperation. E.g. Slowed enemies can still hurt other PCs if they insist on staying in melee, but dead enemies can't harm anyone no matter how stupid they are being.

Since it sounds like they are kind of jerks on top of that, in such a scenario I'd probably shrug and just start casting the demon spells anyway, despite the potential long-term consequences the DM hinted at. Might as well be stupid along with the rest of them, even if it's a different kind of stupid (long-term Faustian stupid vs. tactical stupid).

[Unoriginal]

MAnd one thing that unites them is that they HATE LISTENING TO ME (seriously, "consent issues" have been raised so I literally do not make any suggestions to them in combat, not one).

Not sure I understand what you mean here.



Since it sounds like they are kind of jerks on top of that, in such a scenario I'd probably shrug and just start casting the demon spells anyway, despite the potential long-term consequences the DM hinted at. Might as well be stupid along with the rest of them, even if it's a different kind of stupid (long-term Faustian stupid vs. tactical stupid).

Don't know the details, but in such a scenario I'd try to address the fact they hate my contributions and if that doesn't work I'd leave the group.

Honestly doesn't sound enjoyable.


Anyway. On a more technical level, I feel like even 1 hour of Earth Elemental would speed up the travel quite a bit, in the Underdark, and if anything happens during that time you'd have extra muscles.

[Hellpyre]

Yes, what prevents it is that they are all flavor characters, including a Chaotic Neutral that literally never does anything that makes sense. And one thing that unites them is that they HATE LISTENING TO ME (seriously, "consent issues" have been raised so I literally do not make any suggestions to them in combat, not one). Being that I'm low EQ and a different generation, sometimes they have reactions like I've experienced here on unfortunate occasion.

This...is concerning. It sounds like a major issue. There are a couple questions you may want to ask yourself and/or your group along the lines of "Do I enjoy this group more than I would enjoy an alternate activity" or "What level of the hostility is directly tied to the character and what is towards the character as a proxy for myself."

If the only cohesive force in the adventuring group is a distaste for one of the members, that's a mighty odd group to keep together (especially with someone apparently playing Chaotic Stupid). If a distaste for you or your roleplaying style is a major force in your playgroup interactions, however, you may want to explore the reasons why, as well as possibly look for another group you could play with.

[Bilbron]

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

Don't know the details, but in such a scenario I'd try to address the fact they hate my contributions and if that doesn't work I'd leave the group.

Honestly doesn't sound enjoyable.

Anyway. On a more technical level, I feel like even 1 hour of Earth Elemental would speed up the travel quite a bit, in the Underdark, and if anything happens during that time you'd have extra muscles.
I Polymorphed one and told him what to do once, and it was extremely badly received and led to a week of conversation about it. I usually don't issue commands, but things had gone extremely sideways and we were about to eat a TPK, so I had to be a bit more active than I usually am and it didn't exactly go over well (we did ultimately defeat Titivilus and his legion of 15 Merregons with our 4x 9th level characters, though, so yay?).

I've thought about finding a new group, and maybe I will once I get a better idea how to find games. I'm having fun and really like the character/campaign though (and DM is one of my best/oldest friends). And honestly, would it be any better? I've gotten all these infractions here at GitP already and I've been so polite! All these young folks playing the game tend to judge so harshly for not following the modern ettiquette/language handbook, even though I never got a copy. I'm actually thinking about a video on generational mixing in this game, lol.

I also play another weekly game with this group (Kids on Bikes), so abandoning them would have greater repercussions than just this one game. And don't get it twisted, we mostly get along and we all have fun. Just sometimes my low EQ can send shockwaves through the safe space, a fairly typical occurence regardless of venue.

[Unoriginal]

You defeated Titivilus with 4 lvl 9 characters?

How did you manage that, if you don't mind the question?

[Bilbron]

You defeated Titivilus with 4 lvl 9 characters?

How did you manage that, if you don't mind the question?

He was attacking me personally in Greater Invisible (I was only one with See Invisible up) and kicking my butt (couldn't get away with that stupid teleport of his), actually knocking me to 0 for the first time ever (I hardly ever take damage). BUT my familiar revived me with a Potion of Extra Healing and I was able to lure him into a tiny passage, get on the other side of him, and Stone Shaped to seal him off and he couldn't get back in without line of sight. Then we were able to finish off the Merregons once I Slowed them to neuter those 3x Halberd attacks. In the process, I felt like I had to Polymorph one of our guys to extract our Paladin who was dead dead and behind enemy lines and difficult terrain (needed that 40' climbing Dash so could use the ceiling), to bring him back to our Life Cleric for Revivification and 5x 8hp Goodberries applied by my Tiny Servants.

[Unoriginal]

He was attacking me personally in Greater Invisible (I was only one with See Invisible up) and kicking my butt (couldn't get away with that stupid teleport of his), actually knocking me to 0 for the first time ever (I hardly ever take damage). BUT my familiar revived me with a Potion of Extra Healing and I was able to lure him into a tiny passage, get on the other side of him, and Stone Shaped to seal him off and he couldn't get back in without line of sight. Then we were able to finish off the Merregons once I Slowed them to neuter those 3x Halberd attacks. In the process, I felt like I had to Polymorph one of our guys to extract our Paladin who was dead dead and behind enemy lines and difficult terrain (needed that 40' climbing Dash so could use the ceiling), to bring him back to our Life Cleric for Revivification and 5x 8hp Goodberries applied by my Tiny Servants.

How did you lure him to that passage and get to the other side of him without getting destroyed by his necrotic sword and Frightful Word?

Did he try to Feeblemind you, as the only one who could see him?

[MaxWilson]

*snip* Though tbf I'm more surprised he didn't just cast Nondetection on himself to make your See Invisibility not work.

I believe that doesn't work--Nondetection prevents scrying or being targeted by divination spells, but See Invisibility doesn't target the invisible creature, it targets someone trying to see them.

[Bilbron]

How did you lure him to that passage and get to the other side of him without getting destroyed by his necrotic sword and Frightful Word?

Did he try to Feeblemind you, as the only one who could see him?

Though tbf I'm more surprised he didn't just cast Nondetection on himself to make your See Invisibility not work.

He had followed me in to get me as I retreated, and knocked me to 0. It was the next round that my familiar revived me and I had just enough room to crawl to a square where I could cast the Stone Shape.

I saved against a couple of his spells, now that I know it was Feeblemind I'm very happy about that.

[Unoriginal]

I believe that doesn't work--Nondetection prevents scrying or being targeted by divination spells, but See Invisibility doesn't target the invisible creature, it targets someone trying to see them.

Re-reading both spells, you are right. I'll edit my post.

[MaxWilson]

He was attacking me personally in Greater Invisible (I was only one with See Invisible up) and kicking my butt (couldn't get away with that stupid teleport of his), actually knocking me to 0 for the first time ever (I hardly ever take damage). BUT my familiar revived me with a Potion of Extra Healing and I was able to lure him into a tiny passage, get on the other side of him, and Stone Shaped to seal him off and he couldn't get back in without line of sight. Then we were able to finish off the Merregons once I Slowed them to neuter those 3x Halberd attacks. In the process, I felt like I had to Polymorph one of our guys to extract our Paladin who was dead dead and behind enemy lines and difficult terrain (needed that 40' climbing Dash so could use the ceiling), to bring him back to our Life Cleric for Revivification and 5x 8hp Goodberries applied by my Tiny Servants.

I have a belief that 5E's initiative system increases friction and decreases intra-party cooperation by forcing players to spend most of their time not being allowed to talk to the DM because it's "not your turn." I think it also probably makes situations like this more... brittle, I guess. Instead of two characters declaring their actions together ("How are we going to save Paul the Paladin?"/"I could turn you into a Giant Ape and you could go fetch him by Dashing over the walls!"/"Okay! DM, that's what we're going to do.") they have to act separately and it's more likely psychologically that it will come off as pushy:

"I'm going to turn you into a Giant Ape! Then on your turn you go fetch Paul."
"You're turning me into a what? That's not what I was planning..."

I'm not saying low EQ can't be part of it, but I suspect that the PHB initiative system makes conflicts between players who are trying to work together more frequent and seem worse.

[Unoriginal]

He had followed me in to get me as I retreated, and knocked me to 0. It was the next round that my familiar revived me and I had just enough room to crawl to a square where I could cast the Stone Shape.

He didn't have Legendary Actions left for after your Familiar's turn?




I saved against a couple of his spells, now that I know it was Feeblemind I'm very happy about that.

Did you save from his Frightful Words every time he attacked you, too?



Sorry for all those questions, I'm just having troubles understanding this encounter.

[MaxWilson]

He didn't have Legendary Actions left for after your Familiar's turn?

Did you save from his Frightful Words every time he attacked you, too?

Why are you aggressively challenging the player instead of the DM?

What happened happened. Maybe you think that version of Titivilus made a mistake, or should have been played differently, but... it happened.

[Bilbron]

He didn't have Legendary Actions left for after your Familiar's turn?




Did you save from his Frightful Words every time he attacked you, too?



Sorry for all those questions, I'm just having troubles understanding this encounter.

DM uses houserule that familiar acts on my turn, so he didn't get to use his Legendary action (he used it to strike me down at the end of my colleague's turn immediately prior, then it was my turn).

Yes, he stuck it once but I shook it off. I have great Wis saves and roll them at advantage.

[Unoriginal]

Why are you aggressively challenging the player instead of the DM?

What happened happened. Maybe you think that version of Titivilus made a mistake, or should have been played differently, but... it happened.

I'm not aggressively challenging anyone, I'm asking questions to the player so that I understand the situation more, as he's the only one who knows how it went. If the DM was here I'd be asking him the same questions.

I'm generally surprised when I read that a group beat a Legendary boss whose CR is nearly twice their levels when the boss has both minions to avoid focus fire, nasty options in its statblock, and is a creature smart enough for tactics.

Still, if I insisted too much, I apologize and will drop it.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not aggressively challenging anyone, I'm asking questions to the player so that I understand the situation more, as he's the only one who knows how it went. (A) If the DM was here I'd be asking him the same questions.

I'm generally surprised when I read that a group beat a Legendary boss whose CR is nearly twice their levels when the boss has both minions to avoid focus fire, nasty options in its statblock, and is a creature smart enough for tactics.

(B) Still, if I insisted too much, I apologize and will drop it.

(A) It's just that you can't expect the player to know the answers. Not only was he not playing Titivilus, he apparently isn't familiar with the stat block either (didn't realize Feeblemind was the spell that Titivilus cast).

(B) Bilbron seems fine with it. I guess I'm fine with it too as long as before demanding to know why Titivilus didn't do XYZ, you explain that Titivilus is capable of XYZ and how it works.

E.g. "He didn't have Legendary Actions left for after your Familiar's turn?"

vs.

"Titivilus gets 3 total Legendary Actions per round, choosing among, a 2-action sword attack, a 2-action fear attack called Frightful Words, a 1-action charm attack called Twisting Words, and a 1-action Teleport. Did he use them all up before your familiar's turn ended?"

And furthermore I apologize for taking out my frustration with WotC on you, @Unoriginal, because in many ways that's what's at the root of my irritation here: a lot of WotC's designs center on metagame considerations like "this creature gets extra psychic damage when it attacks at advantage" but in order to appreciate those aspects of the design you have to have privileged knowledge that players can't be expected to have. And yet WotC pays little to no design attention to conveying that knowledge in diegetic terms that make sense in-character! So who is supposed to be entertained by Titivilus's complex suite of Legendary Actions?

[Bilbron]

I'm not aggressively challenging anyone, I'm asking questions to the player so that I understand the situation more, as he's the only one who knows how it went. If the DM was here I'd be asking him the same questions.

I'm generally surprised when I read that a group beat a Legendary boss whose CR is nearly twice their levels when the boss has both minions to avoid focus fire, nasty options in its statblock, and is a creature smart enough for tactics.

Still, if I insisted too much, I apologize and will drop it.TBH, the DM severely overtuned as we were rocking encounters up until then. Titivilus totally got the drop on us and was targeting me specifically, and I had no intel on this guy except that he was a Devil (as strictly a player of 5e, I try not to read the MM too closely because I prefer to experience battles and the thrill of fighting new monsters organically). It was an absolute miracle that I was able to seal him off, because he'd been scrying us forever but I had just added Stone Shape and had never cast it before. So he didn't realize the danger of following me into that tunnel. And I was praying that it would be sufficient because I already knew that he could teleport but had no idea if it was based on line of sight or not, and it was seriously all I had left except for 2 1sts and 3 3rds, at that point.

I never take offense to such questions. It was an encounter 13x more powerful than appropriate for our level, and I honestly expected a TPK. The battle was going extremely badly until I sealed off Titivilus and Slowed the Merregons (3x Halberd attacks were crushing my party, but with Titivilus in my face I couldn't support them as usual).

I will add that I make my Tiny Servants out of silver coins, and the fact that they did full damage to the Merregons was also instrumental to victory. That was the only time the silver made a difference, and I was very pleased.