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Itous
2007-11-04, 09:10 AM
hi all i have recently taken to playing an illusionist even got a custom to creating my own signature spells theres one problem, the low hp, so when combat rolls around if you use the spells correctly but they just don't work. aka the baddies make thier saves, your not going to be much good in combat for when the **** hits the fan, so do you think its worth multiclassing as a barbarian?

kjones
2007-11-04, 09:14 AM
The problem with taking a level of barbarian is that, first of all, you'll only be getting, on average, about 4 more hitpoints than you would as a sorcerer. You might as well just take the Toughness feat.

The other problems are that you'll lose your spellcasting progression, meaning you won't be able to cast higher level spells until later than normal. You can't cast while raging, so those two abilities don't mesh usefully.

Since you're the spellcaster, what's the rest of your party doing to keep you from getting hit? That should be their job.

Itous
2007-11-04, 09:20 AM
good point the party doesn't actully protect me, explains why i get killed so much, as i said before i can't defend my self thus thinking about the barbarian class but good thinking with the toughness feat i had forgotten about that

AmberVael
2007-11-04, 09:23 AM
No. That'll just make you more useless, if anything.
First, unless you've specifically planned for it with your whole build, giving up caster levels is a really bad idea. Second, switching to barbarian out of a spellcasting class just for hit dice?
...no. Just no. You don't benefit from Rage, because that'll just hamper your ability to cast spells (unless you go Rage Mage, but again, that is an entirely different ballpark. Not that I'd recommend the class anyways, but it would be a better build than multiclassing to barbarian for a couple of levels.)
If you're worried about your save or die spells not working, then you should focus on buff spells for your companions. Get Haste, or bull's strength, or the like. Those things will only rarely be wasted, and it will make you a definite contribution to the party even when you can't bring the enemies down.
If you still want to focus on illusion spells (not that you have to, as a sorcerer) get Blur, Invisibility, Displacement... all of these will make you a valuable contributor to combat without having to worry about saves.
However, underestimating the power of save or die/suck spells is a bad idea. They can really be a powerful part of your arsenal if you know who to target each one with. Just try and match the spells up appropriately (IE, don't go and use will save spells on spellcasters, or they'll laugh at you due to their high will saves. Go with something that provokes a fortitude or reflex save and watch them flail around hopelessly).

As for Toughness... don't. Just. Don't. If you REALLY want more hitpoints, get the Improved toughness feat which adds +1 per level. However, that is a bad option as well. Go get some metamagic feats, 'cause they'll make you more useful.

Swooper
2007-11-04, 09:25 AM
If you're playing your arcane spellcaster correctly, you should be able to avoid getting hit. There's loads of spells to help you do that, depending on your level of course. Mage Armour and Shield buff your AC. Invisibility and it's bigger brother let you avoid detection in combat. Mirror Image and Displacement give your enemies' attacks a chance to miss outright. Levitate, Fly and Overland Flight let you stay out of reach. Protection From Arrows will make you as good as immune to low level ranged fire. And so on and so forth. All better than taking a barbarian level and losing a caster level at the risk of rolling a 2 on the d12 for HP.

On the other hand, if you want to build a gish, using barbarian for it is quite interesting. You'd likely need levels in the Rage Mage prestige class to go with it, since that's the only way to keep spellcasting ability while raging.

Itous
2007-11-04, 09:27 AM
ok i understand the being useful to the party part, but once again when there busy keeping themselves alive and you have no offensive spells and or spells to use to make yourself seem displaced or invisible your basicly screwed but i appriciate the advise but i already knew that. (refering to buffing up my spells and caster levels this is why i asked for a second opinion on my action before i carried on with it)

AmberVael
2007-11-04, 09:31 AM
...if you don't have any spells left for the day, you should not be in combat. If your party is dragging you through combat when you're not properly prepared (and a sorcerer should have this problem even less than a wizard, for crying out loud), then something is wrong.
Force them to stop and rest, even if it requires threatening them with a hammer (in real life) :smallyuk:.
You should ALWAYS have spells left when you're in combat.

Leon
2007-11-04, 11:05 AM
It can work quite well, with a bit of tweaking.
Typical Sorcerer doesnt mesh well with Barbarian but a Battle Sorcerer would, take battlecaster to get the maximum out of your armour.
You lose some casting but you'll be a tougher nut to crack, one or two Barbarian levels and then fill out with Battle Sorcerer to your desire.

Wise spell choice can counter act having less spells most of the time and when all else fails you can hit things with your choice of martial beatstick or support at a distance with a ranged weapon.

kjones
2007-11-04, 03:22 PM
...if you don't have any spells left for the day, you should not be in combat. If your party is dragging you through combat when you're not properly prepared (and a sorcerer should have this problem even less than a wizard, for crying out loud), then something is wrong.
Force them to stop and rest, even if it requires threatening them with a hammer (in real life) :smallyuk:.
You should ALWAYS have spells left when you're in combat.

Easy to say, but depending on the sorts of adventures his DM likes to run, it doesn't always work out this way in practice. I know that once in a while I'll have wave after wave of foes coming at the party, and they won't have a chance to rest.

The answer to this, of course, lies in making scrolls and wands, when you don't have the chance to rest.

And I know Toughness (and Improved Toughness) aren't terribly useful overall, but if the alternative is taking a level in Barbarian, and if he really needs the HP... well, MM feats aren't all that useful for sorcerers anyway. Sort of. Not really. Don't take Toughness.

Temp
2007-11-04, 04:01 PM
Typical Sorcerer doesnt mesh well with Barbarian but a Battle Sorcerer would, take battlecaster to get the maximum out of your armour.Battle Caster doesn't work that way. It only increases preexisting armored casting.


hi all i have recently taken to playing an illusionist even got a custom to creating my own signature spells theres one problem, the low hp, so when combat rolls around if you use the spells correctly but they just don't work. aka the baddies make thier saves, your not going to be much good in combat for when the **** hits the fan, so do you think its worth multiclassing as a barbarian?Don't take Barb levels. They aren't the solution, just a source of further problems.

What you may consider is talking to your DM about rebuilding as a Beguiler (PHB2). They keep the Illusionist theme, but have a bit more survivability and out-of-combat usefulness (d6 HD, Light-Armored casting, 6+Int--which is their casting stat--skill points) and more spells known.

If that isn't an option, try to take spells like Mirror Image or Displacement that make you harder to hit/kill. See if you can get a couple wands to contribute in combat once you've run out of spells. If you can't, just do your best to get out of the way; there's no reason to stand around in combat above levels 1 to 3 if you've no spells to throw into the mix. You'll just be torn apart.

If you do want to multiclass to a non-caster class to improve your survival, Rogue or Spellthief (CAd)--the latter especially because of the Master Spellthief feat--would be better options. Hiding is probably the best defense you have.

Really though, try not to give up caster levels; they will be far more useful than a couple HP in the long run.

MrNexx
2007-11-04, 04:29 PM
One option, though not as popular, to toughen up a sorcerer is to get a level in Dragon Disciple. It should be fairly easy to meet the requirements, and while the first couple levels won't add caster levels, they will add a little natural armor, some spells per day, and some strength and weaponry to your build. If you go all the way to 3rd level (not as suggested), you get a breath weapon which you can use from a distance when your spells give out.

Hzurr
2007-11-04, 06:01 PM
...if you don't have any spells left for the day, you should not be in combat. If your party is dragging you through combat when you're not properly prepared (and a sorcerer should have this problem even less than a wizard, for crying out loud), then something is wrong.
Force them to stop and rest, even if it requires threatening them with a hammer (in real life) :smallyuk:.
You should ALWAYS have spells left when you're in combat.

Hmm.
http://pizdaus.com/pics/rZRCJjDn2XRK.jpg

TheSteelRat
2007-11-04, 06:22 PM
What level character are you talking about here?

Illusionist Wizard / Sorcerer would be pretty weak in comparison to the new uber-class "Beguiler," which basically trades the option to select spells you don't have enough "spells known" slots to use for a single school or so of spells with a few utilitarian ones thrown in there. Go for Improved Feint and Skill Focus: Concentration, and you'll do fine.

Casters are made squishy for a reason, and that's because they rock the higher levels, so you've gotta give them some penalty. Who else can point a finger at you (or, heck, with a stilled silent spell just think about you) and cause you to keel over and die? Or think you're his best friend? Or mind control you into slaughtering your buddies? Or transport yourself to another location instantly?

For optimization purposes, losing caster levels means at high level you'll be less effective, and generally throughout the course of playing you'll have lower spell levels, hence lower DC's, and the bad guys will make their checks more often. It's nice to have something to fall back on, but overall it's better to do one thing very, very well.

With Unearthed Arcana, the Battle Sorcerer variant costs you one spell known and one spell / day per level (but you still progress at the same rate, so you'll get your 2nd level spells at 4, 3rd at 6, etc), in exchange for 3/4th BAB and d8 Hit Points, and Light Armor use while casting. There's an Armoured Caster feat that can increase that to Medium, but that's as far as I'd go with that. Call yourself a "Battle Illusionist," and get some scrolls/rods/wands to back yourself up. Also see if you can trade-in your familiar for something more useful. If you're playing low level only, try the UA's "Simple Variant," where you exchange a Familiar for an Animal Companion of your Sorcerer Level / 2. Add Natural Bond on for a little help with that. There's other options too I believe in other books, and I'm sure someone else can help you more with those choices.

Leon
2007-11-04, 07:50 PM
Battle Caster doesn't work that way. It only increases preexisting armored casting.


Yes. The pre-existing armoured casting that the Battle Sorcerer has.

AmberVael
2007-11-04, 08:44 PM
Easy to say, but depending on the sorts of adventures his DM likes to run, it doesn't always work out this way in practice. I know that once in a while I'll have wave after wave of foes coming at the party, and they won't have a chance to rest.

The answer to this, of course, lies in making scrolls and wands, when you don't have the chance to rest.

And I know Toughness (and Improved Toughness) aren't terribly useful overall, but if the alternative is taking a level in Barbarian, and if he really needs the HP... well, MM feats aren't all that useful for sorcerers anyway. Sort of. Not really. Don't take Toughness.
That's true, but again, that shouldn't happen all the time, like he said it is.
Furthermore, even as you say that, you agree that barbarian isn't the answer. Spells (or sources of spells) should be the answer.

Hzurr-
One answer:
Warlock.
:smalltongue:

But no, really if you are truly, truly worried about being ineffective after running out of spells, battle sorcerer is a good choice.
Alternately, you could try out a reserve feat or two. For a sorcerer, they aren't a bad choice.

Temp
2007-11-04, 08:50 PM
Yes. The pre-existing armoured casting that the Battle Sorcerer has.
Huh. My brain skipped over the "Battle Sorcerer" bit. Right you are, then.

Deepblue706
2007-11-04, 09:00 PM
Dude, totally take Barbarian, and then go RAGE MAGE (from Complete Warrior)! You can cast spells, hit things, flip out and hit things, or flip out and explode things.

kme
2007-11-06, 08:32 AM
There are many ways of getting more HP. Before you decide to take another class you should get tho most from your other options first. Items that give constitution (amulet of health) , spells that give temporary HP (false life, vampiric touch) , summoned monsters could also be called additional HP in a way.
With all these options you can get a lot of HP, maybe even more than with multiclassing.

Person_Man
2007-11-06, 10:03 AM
From a optimization perspective, full casters should almost never give up any caster levels. Nothing in 3.5 D&D is more powerful then access to higher level spells. Full casters are usually the most powerful characters in the game. So if you're having trouble playing a full caster, then you need to take a better look at your spell selection.

Look for spells that don't offer a Saving Throw, or spells that have an effect even if the enemy Saves, such as Solid Fog. Use Invisibility and Summon monsters. Use Fly and rain death on your enemies. Avoid the front line of combat like the plague.

Frosty
2007-11-06, 03:08 PM
Take levels in Abjurant Champion.

d10. Full BAB, full caster progression. Awesome class abilities.

Requirements? Proficiency in a single martial weapon, Combat Casting, and like 5 BAB or something.

One of the more broken PrCs.

MeklorIlavator
2007-11-06, 03:41 PM
If you really want that bigger hit die, you may want to look up the rage mage PrC in Complete warrior if you can. Its a combination of the Barbarian and a arcane caster, and while not mechanically overpowering, it's innovative.