Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Traab]

Setting up a new thread.

Grrl Power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?248414-Grrl-Power)
Grrl Power Thread #2: The Most Common Super Power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431652-Grrl-Power-Thread-2-The-Most-Common-Super-Power)
Grrl Power III: Crisis of Infinite Filler Comics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518466-GrrlPower-III-Crisis-Of-Infinite-Filler-Comics)
Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561907-Grrl-Power-IV-Constantly-Expanded-Universe)
Grrl Power V: Probably Not An Octopus (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?594599-Grrl-Power-V-Probably-Not-an-Octopus)


As for content, im thinking if archon came up to me with this idea, I would go for, whatever power they wanted to apply to the job, achilles invulnerability which is nice for me and also ensures I dont wind up dead before they get their moneys worth from me, then after that I would negotiate for some other random super set as a bonus just for funzies. Not sure what I would pick, maybe amorphus? Shape shifting of some level stretchy body and invulnerability? yes please.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. Achilles has a power, that if anything is even more special than Max's.
Honestly suspect its not something that can be copied.

[Traab]

Hmm.. Achilles has a power, that if anything is even more special than Max's.
Honestly suspect its not something that can be copied.

Im not sure why you would think that. What makes his single ability "You cant hurt me" any more special than anyone elses ability? I dont recall any mention of him being different than anyone else. Is it because it seems to be more total than any other ability that has displayed limits? Because we were thinking that was the case for sydneys shield right up until it tanked an alien super weapon blast and was dropped to the red and partially broken. So far, achilles seems invulnerable to everything, but the very name suggests that he has a weakness somewhere.

[Shining Wrath]

So what you need is for all of Archon's supers to form a LLC called ArcCorp that exists for the sole purpose of hiring Hench Wench.
It would be a problem if her ability only works for villains, but you could probably find someone who'd call a bunch of super-powered law-enforcement types "villains" and mean it, so you somehow persuade them to become the COO of ArcCorp. :smallwink:

[lord_khaine]

Im not sure why you would think that. What makes his single ability "You cant hurt me" any more special than anyone elses ability? I dont recall any mention of him being different than anyone else. Is it because it seems to be more total than any other ability that has displayed limits? Because we were thinking that was the case for sydneys shield right up until it tanked an alien super weapon blast and was dropped to the red and partially broken. So far, achilles seems invulnerable to everything, but the very name suggests that he has a weakness somewhere.

We have newer been told or shown anything else than that Sydney's shield was exceptionally powerful. Even when testing it Max still said she were holding back.
And from the power rankings of the Cast page we had a decent idea of just how solid it were.

Achilles meanwhile does have an ability that are more special than anyone elses.
He got 6 dots of invulnerability on a logarithmic scale of 0 to 5.
(at least it seems to be logarithmic. Its clearly not liniar)

Also for that matter he isnt a super.
He got his power from an event. Quote "Achilles doesn’t know exactly how or when he got his powers (thought it would be patently obvious to anyone who was with him at the time)."

[Shining Wrath]

OK, I'm with HW. That was profoundly gross.

[HandofShadows]

Gross, but the reactions are funny.

[Kantaki]

I love how everyone's looking various shades of disturbed and Amorph is reacting like he commenting on the taste of some new food stuff.:smallbiggrin:

No, seriously, his face just screams "Interesting, but it could do with a bit more punch.".:smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

I love how everyone's looking various shades of disturbed and Amorph is reacting like he commenting on the taste of some new food stuff.:smallbiggrin:

No, seriously, his face just screams "Interesting, but it could do with a bit more punch.".:smalltongue:

Also, it conveys to HW that "You really need to do a lot better than that", which probably tilts her toward "flight" and away from "fight". But if someone else can get the drop on Brut's junk, I don't think it's possible to outrun Maxima.


We have newer been told or shown anything else than that Sydney's shield was exceptionally powerful. Even when testing it Max still said she were holding back.
And from the power rankings of the Cast page we had a decent idea of just how solid it were.

Achilles meanwhile does have an ability that are more special than anyone elses.
He got 6 dots of invulnerability on a logarithmic scale of 0 to 5.
(at least it seems to be logarithmic. Its clearly not liniar)

Also for that matter he isnt a super.
He got his power from an event. Quote "Achilles doesn’t know exactly how or when he got his powers (thought it would be patently obvious to anyone who was with him at the time)."

Sydney ... Maxima ... Achilles. I wonder if we'll find out that no one is actually a genetic super; they are all induced by some sort of external actor. Sometimes the person is aware of the external actor, and sometimes not; and sometimes the same actor affects family members, which is why you find related supers. That would be quite the plot twist - that aliens are experimenting on humans as their version of laboratory mice, and applying the more successful upgrades to their own kind.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

To (mis)quote the Jessica Jones show:

"How invulnerable are you?"
"On a scale of 'I don't know' to 'I don't want to find out'?"

Invulnerability isn't the kind of power you deliberately seek out the limits of, once you get past a certain point, because passing those limits could be catastrophic. Especially if it goes straight from 100% protection to 0% protection, or if the mere act of failing causes damage, and for all they know it could do both of those because there's no way to test safely for that.

Anyway, from the question posed by the author: the best implausible threat I've heard is from Red Vs Blue.

I will devour their hearts and crap out their souls!

[lord_khaine]

Sydney ... Maxima ... Achilles. I wonder if we'll find out that no one is actually a genetic super; they are all induced by some sort of external actor. Sometimes the person is aware of the external actor, and sometimes not; and sometimes the same actor affects family members, which is why you find related supers. That would be quite the plot twist - that aliens are experimenting on humans as their version of laboratory mice, and applying the more successful upgrades to their own kind.

Sydney we know isnt a genetic super. Maxima we know is a genetic super. With Achilles we have no idea because the support cast only get limited attention.


Invulnerability isn't the kind of power you deliberately seek out the limits of, once you get past a certain point, because passing those limits could be catastrophic. Especially if it goes straight from 100% protection to 0% protection, or if the mere act of failing causes damage, and for all they know it could do both of those because there's no way to test safely for that.

I cant see any reason for why it should go straight from 100 % to 0%.
Even Sydney's shield, the most likely candidate for that still had warning colors.

And with Achilles we know he has tested the limits of his invulnerability, and found absolutely non.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I cant see any reason for why it should go straight from 100 % to 0%.
Even Sydney's shield, the most likely candidate for that still had warning colors.

And with Achilles we know he has tested the limits of his invulnerability, and found absolutely non.

Sydney's shield is a piece of technology, extremely advanced by all conceivable standards but technology nevertheless. Warnings on imminent failure are expected of complex technology, not so much on what we assume to be (at the moment) naturally occurring powers.

As for why it would go straight from 100% to 0% - Sydney's shield, for one, would do exactly that. If it encounters something it can't block, it will fail, and that will be that. The warning Sydney got was only visible - and thus useful - because the attack she tanked was strong enough to stress the shield, but not strong enough to break it. A weaker attack wouldn't have triggered the warning, and a stronger attack would have collapsed the shield entirely.

We don't know anything about how Achilles' power works, but there's likewise no reason to think his power has any leeway or buffer to dampen excessive force. He hasn't found anything that can hurt him yet, but for all we know the protective effect of his power will just fail when its limit is exceeded. Maybe the limit isn't in magnitude, either. Maybe it's a limit of how much damage (physical, chemical, biological, or otherwise) his body can withstand over some period of time, or maybe even over his lifetime. Maybe it gets weaker with age. There's uncountable variety in possible limits.

[Traab]

Sydney's shield is a piece of technology, extremely advanced by all conceivable standards but technology nevertheless. Warnings on imminent failure are expected of complex technology, not so much on what we assume to be (at the moment) naturally occurring powers.

As for why it would go straight from 100% to 0% - Sydney's shield, for one, would do exactly that. If it encounters something it can't block, it will fail, and that will be that. The warning Sydney got was only visible - and thus useful - because the attack she tanked was strong enough to stress the shield, but not strong enough to break it. A weaker attack wouldn't have triggered the warning, and a stronger attack would have collapsed the shield entirely.

We don't know anything about how Achilles' power works, but there's likewise no reason to think his power has any leeway or buffer to dampen excessive force. He hasn't found anything that can hurt him yet, but for all we know the protective effect of his power will just fail when its limit is exceeded. Maybe the limit isn't in magnitude, either. Maybe it's a limit of how much damage (physical, chemical, biological, or otherwise) his body can withstand over some period of time, or maybe even over his lifetime. Maybe it gets weaker with age. There's uncountable variety in possible limits.

Or more likely, its like maxima and as they ramp up the damage he starts to feel pain THEN takes physical damage. Or really, any super durable hero. Below a certain threshold they dont even register an attack as hitting them. Then they notice but it doesnt hurt, then it starts to sting, then it causes damage, etc. Yes its entirely possible to accidentally jump from feels nothing to obliteration, but only if you are jumping the damage up too far each step. If sydney went from maxima shield punching to planetary obliteration, she would die and never even realize her shield was strained. Its certainly something to test very carefully as you dont want to do that, of course, but that doesnt mean no testing at all. And it doesnt mean that if you punch achilles with 100k newtons of force he is fine, but 101k newtons he explodes into a red mist. The line isnt going to be that thin most likely.

[Shining Wrath]

Sydney we know isnt a genetic super. Maxima we know is a genetic super. With Achilles we have no idea because the support cast only get limited attention.



I cant see any reason for why it should go straight from 100 % to 0%.
Even Sydney's shield, the most likely candidate for that still had warning colors.

And with Achilles we know he has tested the limits of his invulnerability, and found absolutely non.

Remember the whole bit with Deus and Maxima's geode? She gained her golden skin and her powers when a geode cracked open and poured goop all over her. She has the physique of a super, but we know her powers are not genetic. Which I think raises the question as to whether anyone's powers are genetic. All supers are lab rats?


Or more likely, its like maxima and as they ramp up the damage he starts to feel pain THEN takes physical damage. Or really, any super durable hero. Below a certain threshold they dont even register an attack as hitting them. Then they notice but it doesnt hurt, then it starts to sting, then it causes damage, etc. Yes its entirely possible to accidentally jump from feels nothing to obliteration, but only if you are jumping the damage up too far each step. If sydney went from maxima shield punching to planetary obliteration, she would die and never even realize her shield was strained. Its certainly something to test very carefully as you dont want to do that, of course, but that doesnt mean no testing at all. And it doesnt mean that if you punch achilles with 100k newtons of force he is fine, but 101k newtons he explodes into a red mist. The line isnt going to be that thin most likely.

If Achilles' powers are tech, usually an engineer will design in graceful degradation when possible. If they are genetic there's lots of things that are brittle in nature - they are fine until they aren't, like an eggshell.

[Traab]

Remember the whole bit with Deus and Maxima's geode? She gained her golden skin and her powers when a geode cracked open and poured goop all over her. She has the physique of a super, but we know her powers are not genetic. Which I think raises the question as to whether anyone's powers are genetic. All supers are lab rats?



If Achilles' powers are tech, usually an engineer will design in graceful degradation when possible. If they are genetic there's lots of things that are brittle in nature - they are fine until they aren't, like an eggshell.

And yet, again, we see physically durable heroes taking damage and NOT exploding once their durability is surpassed. I think the best way of treating it is like regular humans only scaled up. If I brush your side with my finger tip you might not even notice. if I jab your side with my fingertip you might jolt away or even go ow depending on how hard I do it. if I deliver a jab from a fist you might wince or even bruise. if I deliver a full force haymaker you might lose a rib. Now imagine you can take 1000x as much damage. That means the gap between noticing and wincing is also a thousand times higher, same for the rest. Your body wont fail the instant it gets harder than it can take without a flinch, it requires a LOT more force to go from flinch to pain to injury to death. All because the scale is much larger. That seems to be how physical durability is treated in comics at least. The human body isnt an eggshell.

[lord_khaine]

Sydney's shield is a piece of technology, extremely advanced by all conceivable standards but technology nevertheless. Warnings on imminent failure are expected of complex technology, not so much on what we assume to be (at the moment) naturally occurring powers.

Yes. You know whats even better at giving warnings of imminent failure? Biological systems. Its called pain :P


As for why it would go straight from 100% to 0% - Sydney's shield, for one, would do exactly that. If it encounters something it can't block, it will fail, and that will be that. The warning Sydney got was only visible - and thus useful - because the attack she tanked was strong enough to stress the shield, but not strong enough to break it. A weaker attack wouldn't have triggered the warning, and a stronger attack would have collapsed the shield entirely.

And even that scenario is unlike to be a 100% - 0% scenario. As the blast would still expend energy breaking the shield down.
Its just extremely likely to have enough energy left to ash Sydney.


We don't know anything about how Achilles' power works, but there's likewise no reason to think his power has any leeway or buffer to dampen excessive force. He hasn't found anything that can hurt him yet, but for all we know the protective effect of his power will just fail when its limit is exceeded. Maybe the limit isn't in magnitude, either. Maybe it's a limit of how much damage (physical, chemical, biological, or otherwise) his body can withstand over some period of time, or maybe even over his lifetime. Maybe it gets weaker with age. There's uncountable variety in possible limits.

There isnt a need for a buffer/leeway in his power, because one already exists in the basic laws of physic.
If you shoot a bullet though a door it will continue with significantly reduced penetrative power. Because it expended some of its energy going though the first barrier.
And in the case of Achilles and the assumed limits. Then i am going with the simplest explanation so far. That he is invulnerable. Because thats what WoG says.


Remember the whole bit with Deus and Maxima's geode? She gained her golden skin and her powers when a geode cracked open and poured goop all over her. She has the physique of a super, but we know her powers are not genetic. Which I think raises the question as to whether anyone's powers are genetic. All supers are lab rats?


Yes...
Thats the bit where Max and Deus discuss how many others had likely handled the geode before her.
And conclude it likely opened for her because she were a natural super. Something that was literally confirmed by WoG in the author comment.

[Radar]

We don't know anything about how Achilles' power works, but there's likewise no reason to think his power has any leeway or buffer to dampen excessive force. He hasn't found anything that can hurt him yet, but for all we know the protective effect of his power will just fail when its limit is exceeded. Maybe the limit isn't in magnitude, either. Maybe it's a limit of how much damage (physical, chemical, biological, or otherwise) his body can withstand over some period of time, or maybe even over his lifetime. Maybe it gets weaker with age. There's uncountable variety in possible limits.
From what information we have, Achilles' power is more like a stasis effect that somehow still allows him to function - his body simply does not change at all. This is why he is stuck with an 80's mullet. It might not have been stated directly, but I doubt he actually ages at all. If it is so, then I doubt any amount of physical force would make a dent in him and his power would have to targeted directly. He was stuck in huge piles of rubble which considering his lack of super strength could reasonably suffocate him simply by the sheer pressure. Yet, he was completely unfazed. Whatever his power is, it is much more throughout than a simple protective shield.

[Sean Mirrsen]

From what information we have, Achilles' power is more like a stasis effect that somehow still allows him to function - his body simply does not change at all. This is why he is stuck with an 80's mullet. It might not have been stated directly, but I doubt he actually ages at all. If it is so, then I doubt any amount of physical force would make a dent in him and his power would have to targeted directly. He was stuck in huge piles of rubble which considering his lack of super strength could reasonably suffocate him simply by the sheer pressure. Yet, he was completely unfazed. Whatever his power is, it is much more throughout than a simple protective shield.

Yes. Which is, I think, why it is that much more likely to have no "near failure" state. Whatever it is that protects and sustains him, does an *absolute* job. Which is why if something ever does get through, it will get through in full force. And there will be no way to help, because unless the powers go away entirely, they will resist all attempts to affect Achilles, even if it's meant to help. Like that one personal shield device in Stargate Atlantis, that protected its user so well it didn't allow him to eat.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes. You know whats even better at giving warnings of imminent failure? Biological systems. Its called pain :P



And even that scenario is unlike to be a 100% - 0% scenario. As the blast would still expend energy breaking the shield down.
Its just extremely likely to have enough energy left to ash Sydney.



There isnt a need for a buffer/leeway in his power, because one already exists in the basic laws of physic.
If you shoot a bullet though a door it will continue with significantly reduced penetrative power. Because it expended some of its energy going though the first barrier.
And in the case of Achilles and the assumed limits. Then i am going with the simplest explanation so far. That he is invulnerable. Because thats what WoG says.



Yes...
Thats the bit where Max and Deus discuss how many others had likely handled the geode before her.
And conclude it likely opened for her because she were a natural super. Something that was literally confirmed by WoG in the author comment.

Ah. Well, then, she's a enhanced super. Which is why she's The Boss.

[lord_khaine]

Yes. Which is, I think, why it is that much more likely to have no "near failure" state. Whatever it is that protects and sustains him, does an *absolute* job. Which is why if something ever does get through, it will get through in full force. And there will be no way to help, because unless the powers go away entirely, they will resist all attempts to affect Achilles, even if it's meant to help. Like that one personal shield device in Stargate Atlantis, that protected its user so well it didn't allow him to eat.

Indeed. If it does not have a failure state, then it dont have a near failure state :D
Since it does indeed seem like his power is some sort of stasis state, then i dont think any degree of force will overcome his protection.
If something is to work then it needs to be something really esoteric that bypass his invulnerability alltogether. Like something that hits his soul/mind.


Ah. Well, then, she's a enhanced super. Which is why she's The Boss.

Indeed. She is more or less a double super. Hence why she is baseline stronger than any other super seen so far.

[Forum Explorer]

Yes. Which is, I think, why it is that much more likely to have no "near failure" state. Whatever it is that protects and sustains him, does an *absolute* job. Which is why if something ever does get through, it will get through in full force. And there will be no way to help, because unless the powers go away entirely, they will resist all attempts to affect Achilles, even if it's meant to help. Like that one personal shield device in Stargate Atlantis, that protected its user so well it didn't allow him to eat.

I think it's outright stated somewhere that Achilles has complete and true invincibility by the author. Absolutely nothing can hurt him.

If that does grant him immortality that does make him a really tempting target for a theoretical 'What supers would I want to work for?' as Hench Wench.

[Shining Wrath]

I think it's outright stated somewhere that Achilles has complete and true invincibility by the author. Absolutely nothing can hurt him.

If that does grant him immortality that does make him a really tempting target for a theoretical 'What supers would I want to work for?' as Hench Wench.

This is a world with magic, so perhaps his soul or brain can be affected.

OTOH I recall in Interview with a Vampire that one of the most feared threats was to seal a vampire inside a coffin or equivalent and just leave them there for years or decades or centuries. That would work with Achilles; he has no powers that would let him escape.

Therefore Hench Wench wants to sign a long-term contract with Achilles, then bury him in concrete at the foundation of a skyscraper, and take on new business.

[Lapak]

This is a world with magic, so perhaps his soul or brain can be affected.

OTOH I recall in Interview with a Vampire that one of the most feared threats was to seal a vampire inside a coffin or equivalent and just leave them there for years or decades or centuries. That would work with Achilles; he has no powers that would let him escape.

Therefore Hench Wench wants to sign a long-term contract with Achilles, then bury him in concrete at the foundation of a skyscraper, and take on new business.They did this with the immortal-unkillable Jack Harkness in Torchwood as well.

[Forum Explorer]

This is a world with magic, so perhaps his soul or brain can be affected.

OTOH I recall in Interview with a Vampire that one of the most feared threats was to seal a vampire inside a coffin or equivalent and just leave them there for years or decades or centuries. That would work with Achilles; he has no powers that would let him escape.

Therefore Hench Wench wants to sign a long-term contract with Achilles, then bury him in concrete at the foundation of a skyscraper, and take on new business.

Sure, that's a possibility.

If Hench Wench sealed Achilles away, than she isn't really working for him, now is she? It would have to be a particularly poorly worded contract to allow that sort of abuse through.

[lord_khaine]

It would also fail if Achilles at any moment told her she were fired.

But also its still assuming Achilles can be copied. I find it unlikely since he is immune to everything else.
He cant be chocked, he cant be starved, or poisoned, or disintegrated, or get sick. He is basically a walking "nope" sign.

[Shining Wrath]

Sure, that's a possibility.

If Hench Wench sealed Achilles away, than she isn't really working for him, now is she? It would have to be a particularly poorly worded contract to allow that sort of abuse through.

That's why I said long-term contract, and yes, HW would need a good lawyer. It probably works best if an ally of HW seals Achilles away and he doesn't know Hench Wench is part of the scheme.


It would also fail if Achilles at any moment told her she were fired.

But also its still assuming Achilles can be copied. I find it unlikely since he is immune to everything else.
He cant be chocked, he cant be starved, or poisoned, or disintegrated, or get sick. He is basically a walking "nope" sign.

Does being copied harm Achilles, though? He's immune to being harmed. If an ally gains that ability it does not harm Achilles. Would granting Anvil invulnerability harm him?

It is an interesting question whether or not his power can tell the difference between a real ally, and an enemy feigning friendship.

[Traab]

It would also fail if Achilles at any moment told her she were fired.

But also its still assuming Achilles can be copied. I find it unlikely since he is immune to everything else.
He cant be chocked, he cant be starved, or poisoned, or disintegrated, or get sick. He is basically a walking "nope" sign.

On the other hand he can taste food and drink, enjoys the "mouth feel" of his meals, and can clearly tell when he is touching something. He just cant be hurt. No clue if they ever mentioned psychic powers and such though.

[Dragonus45]

I would bet that Achillies might just even no-sell angry magical mind attacks and other weird esoteric methods of harming him as well. Accounting for the WoG of him being really truly invulnerable I wouldn't be surprised if his power itself wasn't wildly esoteric in how it functioned to protect him.

[Traab]

The strange thing is how it does it. As I pointed out, he can clearly feel and taste things, therefore its not totally sealed away, but it always stops before he feels pain. Its almost like an organic version of those force fields that will let through enough sound and light so you can see and hear whats going on through it, but blocks lasers and sonic attacks. Just enough gets through that he can use his senses, but never enough to overtax those senses. Even maxima has issues where her "skin" is like glass. Nothing adheres to it properly. Though I assume she also has the full range of sensitivity to her senses as she can feel things both good and bad. If the bad is strong enough.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Closest probable analogy I can come up with, is CheatEngine. Every cell in his body, individually, is constantly reset to an original state that was set when his powers activated. Things like food and contaminants remain on/in his body and provide constant "sensory pressure". The infinitesimal delay between resets allows him to feel things, but the effects can't accumulate or cause lasting pain or discomfort. He lives constantly in the 'now'. Even if a significantly powerful attack were to destroy some part of him inbetween "ticks", the reset would just restore the damage. The only problem in this explanation is that his memory still functions, but it's probably a general side-effect of powers that "required secondary powers" like remaining in control of your body when logic says you shouldn't, are taken for granted.

[Radar]

Closest probable analogy I can come up with, is CheatEngine. Every cell in his body, individually, is constantly reset to an original state that was set when his powers activated. Things like food and contaminants remain on/in his body and provide constant "sensory pressure". The infinitesimal delay between resets allows him to feel things, but the effects can't accumulate or cause lasting pain or discomfort. He lives constantly in the 'now'. Even if a significantly powerful attack were to destroy some part of him inbetween "ticks", the reset would just restore the damage. The only problem in this explanation is that his memory still functions, but it's probably a general side-effect of powers that "required secondary powers" like remaining in control of your body when logic says you shouldn't, are taken for granted.
It would also not explain how he is apparently incapable of feeling pain. It's one thing to be able to take a sword to the eye or a railgun to the stomach and completely another to be so chill about it as Achilles is.

On a side note, Achilles can thank himself that he was well groomed when his powers kicked in. He might be stuck with an outdated hairdo but at least it is a legitimate hairdo and not an "I really need to get my hair cut" outlook. Or, you know, having to deal with a shaggy beard for the rest of your life would be pretty annoying. That being said, all the supers seem to have no hair away from the top of the head anyway. I wonder if it was also like that before they got the powers, or did it change after their awakening (or however you call that).

[DataNinja]

Hey, look. Two cameos from the Iron Giant. I think that's more than any other character's had. :smalltongue:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Iron Giant aka the best film depiction of Superman to date (center), that giant dude with the power stone from Marvel (he cameos briefly in Guardians of the Galaxy) (left), and one of the very originally named Giant Warriors from Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (right).

Not gonna lie, that's a pretty sweet set of cameos.

[lord_khaine]

It would also not explain how he is apparently incapable of feeling pain. It's one thing to be able to take a sword to the eye or a railgun to the stomach and completely another to be so chill about it as Achilles is.

Well at the same time. Why should he feel pain? We feel pain as a warning sign that something is nearing the treshhold where it would damage us.
If nothing gets near that point then he would not feel pain.

Else. Since he is at least 50, and seems to be partially stuck in the 80's, then it does not seem unlikely he got involved in some sort of temporal stasis event.

Also that you likely need to a reality warper before you have a chance to affect him deeper than by insulting Stairway to Heaven or his hair.
But of course its just guesswork. Since we dont know anything for certain.

[Radar]

Well at the same time. Why should he feel pain? We feel pain as a warning sign that something is nearing the treshhold where it would damage us.
If nothing gets near that point then he would not feel pain.
Because the pain receptors do not work on the damage estimation. They measure temperature, mechanical stress or some chemicals. If his powers worked as instant regeneration, he would still feel pain as the pressure temperature or other harming agent did affect him.

[lord_khaine]

Well but we know his power isnt instant regeneration.
Since he could still be starved/poisoned/chocked then. And stuff would cut him.

[Radar]

Well but we know his power isnt instant regeneration.
Since he could still be starved/poisoned/chocked then. And stuff would cut him.
Yes, but I my reply concerning pain was directed at Sean Mirrsen whose idea is basically perpetual instant regeneration.

[Sean Mirrsen]

My idea is not regeneration, rather a continuous state reset. Poison, even while it stays in his system, can't destroy or alter his cells. His tissues don't deplete of energy and resources because they are constantly replenished, so he can't be starved, dehydrated, or asphyxiated. Viruses can't use his cells to replicate, and bacteria are routinely subsumed by an indestructible immune system.

And when I say instant, I mean instant. A bullet or blade striking him will fail to penetrate, because cells will fail to take damage or separate. They will deform, with enough applied constant force, but only to the limits of their integrity. Which is why he's not an immovable object, just an indestructible one.

As I said, basically CheatEngine. Everything but the physical position/velocity of his body's cells is continuously reset, so he can move and act and things, but can't be damaged or altered. Plus whatever secondary effect that allows his brain to function and retain memories and whatnot.

For a theoretical weakness, you could probably dislocate some of his joints if you applied enough force continuously. The tissue elasticity allows it to happen without damage, more or less, so it could be done. It wouldn't hurt him as such, but it could further reduce his offensive ability until he puts himself back into shape.

[Radar]

My idea is not regeneration, rather a continuous state reset. Poison, even while it stays in his system, can't destroy or alter his cells. His tissues don't deplete of energy and resources because they are constantly replenished, so he can't be starved, dehydrated, or asphyxiated. Viruses can't use his cells to replicate, and bacteria are routinely subsumed by an indestructible immune system.

And when I say instant, I mean instant. A bullet or blade striking him will fail to penetrate, because cells will fail to take damage or separate. They will deform, with enough applied constant force, but only to the limits of their integrity. Which is why he's not an immovable object, just an indestructible one.

As I said, basically CheatEngine. Everything but the physical position/velocity of his body's cells is continuously reset, so he can move and act and things, but can't be damaged or altered. Plus whatever secondary effect that allows his brain to function and retain memories and whatnot.

For a theoretical weakness, you could probably dislocate some of his joints if you applied enough force continuously. The tissue elasticity allows it to happen without damage, more or less, so it could be done. It wouldn't hurt him as such, but it could further reduce his offensive ability until he puts himself back into shape.
Oh, so I misunderstood you before. Sorry about that.

That last paragraph inevitably reminds me of this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Meipj_K69jU). Such a great movie series.

[Traab]

It would probably be easier to just drop another building on him. Or heck, just park a truck on his chest. Thats his biggest weakness, he isnt very strong. Stronger than the average human male of his shape and condition would be, but only because he cant strain his muscles trying to lift things so his limit is a little higher. So yeah, pin him with a vehicle and go about your business without him being able to interfere. Or, just cuff him. Again, not super strong. Of all the supers in archon he is probably the simplest to deal with. He isnt super fast, he isnt super strong, he has no more mobility than any bog standard human. The problem is so many fight him and try to beat him up when the simple solution is to pin him in place.

[Radar]

It would probably be easier to just drop another building on him. Or heck, just park a truck on his chest. Thats his biggest weakness, he isnt very strong. Stronger than the average human male of his shape and condition would be, but only because he cant strain his muscles trying to lift things so his limit is a little higher. So yeah, pin him with a vehicle and go about your business without him being able to interfere. Or, just cuff him. Again, not super strong. Of all the supers in archon he is probably the simplest to deal with. He isnt super fast, he isnt super strong, he has no more mobility than any bog standard human. The problem is so many fight him and try to beat him up when the simple solution is to pin him in place.
Exactly this. Another option is to throw him far enough that he will not be able to come back anytime soon.

The thing is, in the fights he was in, people did not know his powers or just how thorough they are. The antagonist went understandably with standard method of going for the maim/kill option and were taken by surprise when it simply did not work. And that sword to the eye stunt back in the super brawl instigated by Kevin? Nasty psychological move. A trained fighter will not expect anyone to go straight onto an incoming attack and it can throw them off their game for that crucial moment.

[Shining Wrath]

So Hench Wench is a real problem getting more problematic by the second. She's quite likely to hurt civilians with her "throw massive columns of stone" maneuver and what have you.

And Maxima is busy keeping Brut immobilized. I like the laser targeting beam reminding Brut of what he's got at risk here.

So ... either Halo has to come up with something based off her knowledge of comic supers, or (more likely IMNHO) Dabbler shows up and proves that HW is not immune to the power of lust - or, failing that, magic.

[tyckspoon]

So Hench Wench is a real problem getting more problematic by the second. She's quite likely to hurt civilians with her "throw massive columns of stone" maneuver and what have you.

And Maxima is busy keeping Brut immobilized. I like the laser targeting beam reminding Brut of what he's got at risk here.

So ... either Halo has to come up with something based off her knowledge of comic supers, or (more likely IMNHO) Dabbler shows up and proves that HW is not immune to the power of lust - or, failing that, magic.

This is going to turn into another one of those 'why does Maxima even get super-speed if she's never allowed to do anything with it' scenes, I think. She could zip up, smack HenchWench, and be back in place to remind Brut why he's surrendering before he can finish blinking. (And since it seems like a pretty safe assumption that HW is getting her strength/toughness from Brut, she should also have a pretty good idea of how much force is correct to try to disable or stun HW without punching her head off.) She's not actually 'busy' or pinned down by being engaged with Brut at all - at best this is another "I'm pretty sure my team can handle this and I want to see how they do it" case. The moment Maxima decides that's not true, she still has the capability to end the situation very rapidly.. even if it is, as she said in the Vehemence fight, "in an extremely Arianna-unfriendly manner."

(Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)

[Mechalich]

(Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)

It's not really Maxima specifically, it's just the classic problem that characters of vastly different power tiers don't play well together. The typical comic book solution is to provide opponents of multiple power tiers and have everyone, for no logical reason whatsoever, square off against their opponent of an appropriate tier. Dave specifically called this out back in the first big super brawl when Maxima ordered the crew to change to opponents appropriate to their skill set and further emphasized it when criticizing Math and Dabbler for wasting time fighting Jabberwocky and Heavenly Sword respectively during the debriefing. This leaves a rather significant power tier problem in place.

The aspect specific to Maxima is that she's the team leader and has an established role in the character drama to this point, meaning she's got a lot to do outside of combat so she can't simply be sent off into space to crush the Fel Empire for a few months or something without leaving a gaping hole in character dynamic.

[lord_khaine]

This is going to turn into another one of those 'why does Maxima even get super-speed if she's never allowed to do anything with it' scenes, I think. She could zip up, smack HenchWench, and be back in place to remind Brut why he's surrendering before he can finish blinking. (And since it seems like a pretty safe assumption that HW is getting her strength/toughness from Brut, she should also have a pretty good idea of how much force is correct to try to disable or stun HW without punching her head off.) She's not actually 'busy' or pinned down by being engaged with Brut at all - at best this is another "I'm pretty sure my team can handle this and I want to see how they do it" case. The moment Maxima decides that's not true, she still has the capability to end the situation very rapidly.. even if it is, as she said in the Vehemence fight, "in an extremely Arianna-unfriendly manner."

Max isnt -that- fast when not drawing on her other attributes. She might be able to. But she does not know how much smacking HencWench need to go down. And right now she has the enemy leader captive.
And he might still be there when she comes back. But he also might have a power she isnt aware off. Currently HenchWench is just breaking things, so i think its understandable if Max waits and see if her party can handle it.


(Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)

I just think Max is misplaced with her power level. As such there isnt that many situations where she would be justified in using leathal force, mostly because she has the power to end the situation just by breaking a few bones.
That is by the way her prefered outcome. Just because she is ready to kill does not mean she wants to kill. That would have made her a monster. And quite unfit for leadership.
As such the flip side of supers doing massive collateral damage, is that supers can be used to repair said damage a lot easier.

[Traab]

It's not really Maxima specifically, it's just the classic problem that characters of vastly different power tiers don't play well together. The typical comic book solution is to provide opponents of multiple power tiers and have everyone, for no logical reason whatsoever, square off against their opponent of an appropriate tier. Dave specifically called this out back in the first big super brawl when Maxima ordered the crew to change to opponents appropriate to their skill set and further emphasized it when criticizing Math and Dabbler for wasting time fighting Jabberwocky and Heavenly Sword respectively during the debriefing. This leaves a rather significant power tier problem in place.

The aspect specific to Maxima is that she's the team leader and has an established role in the character drama to this point, meaning she's got a lot to do outside of combat so she can't simply be sent off into space to crush the Fel Empire for a few months or something without leaving a gaping hole in character dynamic.

Generally speaking, when there is a team of heroes, they are of close enough power levels to each other that they can fight the same bad guys. Batman on the justice league being a bit of an outlier but he still manages to contribute against the high end threats. The current setup of arcswat is like if Superman headed up the Defenders and joined them on missions. It just kind of makes things awkward. As for the math/dabbler thing, it was less about power tiers and more they were drawing their fights out for personal enjoyment because math was happy to be facing a martial artist, and dabbler was in the mood to sword fight. Both were fully capable of putting down their opponent relatively quickly if they took the fight seriously, but they werent. So they got scolded for it afterwards.

I think the real problem here is that maxima is combining two roles. The nuclear option for the really bad fights, and the team leader. By acting as team leader she is right there, on the spot, NOT ending the fights as fast as she is capable of. Again, its like having superman float there watching daredevil fight a swarm of Hand ninjas when he could take a picosecond and incapacitate the entire crowd, but instead he is calling out advice and tactics so daredevil can eventually win the fight. Long term its a good idea, looking at it rationally, because it means the team will be more experienced and better trained to handle their own fights in the future without relying on maximus explodicus to save the day in every fight. But during the fights themselves it just feels odd that she could end it, but doesnt.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the preferred military solution is to end fights as quickly as possible (consistent with laws and strategy) because (1) sometimes outclassed opponents get lucky and hurt your side and (2) you don't always have 100% accurate intelligence about what reinforcements might be on the way. In this battle, there's also (3) collateral damage to civilians and property.

E.G., Napoleon sent the Middle Guard against Wellington's center because he realized Blucher's Prussians were arriving on his right flank. It was a "win now or lose soon" situation. Maxima does NOT know whether or not other baddies are about to arrive. For all she knows a Vehemence-level threat is about to drop in.

So ... a "real" Maxima would end fights as quickly as possible, which is pretty damn quick. But that's not much fun and doesn't let the others shine.

[lord_khaine]

Yes. And when the Fell battleship arrived Max nuked it out of orbit because it was a win now or lose a town situation.
This meanwhile is a chaotic braw, and a excellent chance for her subordinates to gain some experience under controlled circumstances.
Experience they might need for when they another time are operating without a safety net.

So no. This is absolutely something "real" Max might do.

[Mechalich]

Yes. And when the Fell battleship arrived Max nuked it out of orbit because it was a win now or lose a town situation.
This meanwhile is a chaotic braw, and a excellent chance for her subordinates to gain some experience under controlled circumstances.
Experience they might need for when they another time are operating without a safety net.

So no. This is absolutely something "real" Max might do.

No. You do not treat an actual combat situation, no matter how 'under control' it might appear, as training. You do not ever do that. The very idea of doing that is criminal negligence. If Maxima is willfully exposing her subordinates to unnecessary enemy action she could be court martialed and prosecuted for doing so.

[Ibrinar]

If we are talking about realism yeah I have to agree treating a super brawl, especially one with unknown powers involved, as training exercise would be gross negligence. The damage to civilian infrastructure aside powers can be basically anything. If Hench Woman pierces someones heart with a light speed beam attack or simply fires a big aoe without an obvious build up there is nothing Maxima with all her superspeed could do. Only by story conventions can you be relatively sure that no irreversible damage will happen suddenly

[Shining Wrath]

Brut and HW were, in fact, unexpected escalation of the combat, which was originally Garamm and his boss who foolishly thought a mere stasis ray could stop Maxima. There's no guarantee there won't be another escalation of the combat. If NewEnemies:Brut+HW::Brut+HW:OriginalEnemies Team ARCSwat would be in for a hard time. We know there are powerful entities out there.

What makes for a good story is sometimes in tension with RW military practice. It's OK. We're not reading this as training for our future careers as troops. At least I hope not; I'm a little old for boot camp. :smalltongue: A real Maxima might well knock Brut unconscious and then break a few important bones on Hench Wench. Or, given the threat to civilians, kill them both. In addition, what are Halo and Dabbler doing right now? Again, in the RW military standing by and watching your compatriots fight is frowned upon. The last we saw Dabbler she was telling Halo not to worry about Maxima, and sending Halo to hide an alien gadget. And using lube as a weapon. It's about time for the gal with 4 arms to lend a hand.

[lord_khaine]

No. You do not treat an actual combat situation, no matter how 'under control' it might appear, as training. You do not ever do that. The very idea of doing that is criminal negligence. If Maxima is willfully exposing her subordinates to unnecessary enemy action she could be court martialed and prosecuted for doing so.

Except no, you -do- in fact do that. At some point you have to field your green recruits.
You can then, as you seem to favor, send them directly into the roughest grinder available and lose ½ of them.
OR, you can ease them into things with light tasks of increasing difficulty, and veterans on standby to bail them out.


If we are talking about realism yeah I have to agree treating a super brawl, especially one with unknown powers involved, as training exercise would be gross negligence. The damage to civilian infrastructure aside powers can be basically anything. If Hench Woman pierces someones heart with a light speed beam attack or simply fires a big aoe without an obvious build up there is nothing Maxima with all her superspeed could do. Only by story conventions can you be relatively sure that no irreversible damage will happen suddenly

And if the team cant function without Max present, then it becomes a disaster the moment Max gets disabled, or occupied somewhere else.
If Hench Wench had a light speed beam she could have opened up with it, and even your "realistic" Max would have been unable to do anything.
But she does not have one. So she is fairly safe to leave to the team.

edit.
As current comic shows then she is more a powerful idiot than anything else. With no hints of super speed.

[Traab]

On the plus side, max is now free to twist hench's head around so far she can cosplay as an owl. Then go back to Brut. Or be more nonlethal first, whatever. :smallbiggrin: I figure she can put hench in a choke hold or something to bring her down. Might take an extra couple seconds to dial in the exact strength needed to do that without decapitation, but she can handle that while flying her into boeing territory to get her away from the city and most of the stuff her powers seem to work on environment wise.

[HandofShadows]

I think if Max was really worried she wouldn't still be standing there holding a gun. She's let her team do most of the fighting with Wench so far. That may well have changed though. Wench is showing a very large and power set of power and is causing some heavy collateral damage. Wonder what Sydney is up to though? She should be back from hiding the stasis pod by now. Went after the flyer that had the rifle maybe. Also Dabbler and Cora?

[Shining Wrath]

Except no, you -do- in fact do that. At some point you have to field your green recruits.
You can then, as you seem to favor, send them directly into the roughest grinder available and lose ½ of them.
OR, you can ease them into things with light tasks of increasing difficulty, and veterans on standby to bail them out.



And if the team cant function without Max present, then it becomes a disaster the moment Max gets disabled, or occupied somewhere else.
If Hench Wench had a light speed beam she could have opened up with it, and even your "realistic" Max would have been unable to do anything.
But she does not have one. So she is fairly safe to leave to the team.

edit.
As current comic shows then she is more a powerful idiot than anything else. With no hints of super speed.

When you send green recruits into battle you do not tell them to play around. Nor do you withhold support from other troops to "let them learn". For example, on D-Day the troops sent onto Omaha Beach were relatively green. Did they just let them go? No; rather, they had the largest armada in the history of the world offshore bombarding all five beaches, including Omaha, and literally thousands of bombers. "This is your first fight" is not at all the same thing as "Veteran troops will hold back and let the enemy try to kill you so you can learn what that's like".

In fact, one of the German survivors of D-Day recalled later that when he saw the Allied fleet he knew it was over for Germany - that there was no way to defeat anyone who could field that many ships. It's one of the great lines from The Longest Day - Plustak (I think that's his name) calls his superiors and announces "It's the invasion! There's hundreds of ships out there - thousands! It's incredible".
Superior: "Which way are they headed? North, or south?"
Plustak: "Right. At. Me." hangs up

[Traab]

When you send green recruits into battle you do not tell them to play around. Nor do you withhold support from other troops to "let them learn". For example, on D-Day the troops sent onto Omaha Beach were relatively green. Did they just let them go? No; rather, they had the largest armada in the history of the world offshore bombarding all five beaches, including Omaha, and literally thousands of bombers. "This is your first fight" is not at all the same thing as "Veteran troops will hold back and let the enemy try to kill you so you can learn what that's like".

In fact, one of the German survivors of D-Day recalled later that when he saw the Allied fleet he knew it was over for Germany - that there was no way to defeat anyone who could field that many ships. It's one of the great lines from The Longest Day - Plustak (I think that's his name) calls his superiors and announces "It's the invasion! There's hundreds of ships out there - thousands! It's incredible".
Superior: "Which way are they headed? North, or south?"
Plustak: "Right. At. Me." hangs up

Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.

[Mechalich]

Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.

In the case of normal weapons there's almost always a tradeoff between firepower and precision. You hold back the heavy ordinance because it lacks precision and risks collateral damage, or it's too expensive, or it's too slow, etc. You can have superheroes who are like this, like the Hulk or, in a story that actually stressed this point specifically, Mr. Incredible in Incredibles II.

The problem with a character like Maxima, or Superman, is that they don't have a downside of this kind. They have access to both impossibly ridiculous power, and impossibly ridiculous precision. They are OP without any appreciable downsides and it presents a problem for a story because they are perfectly capable of solving problems below their power tier at zero risk and faster than their lower-tiered allies.

Now, it's an established feature of comic book logic that this doesn't happen, because it eliminates possible stories. Superman could round up an incarcerate Batman's entire rogue's gallery in a matter of minutes and put them in a prison in space or on an alien world that they could never escape back to Earth from. He doesn't do this because...well, ultimately, because that would really crimp the existence of Batman's comic line. It's just something you have to accept with regard to comic book universes.

Grrlpower, unfortunately made the mistake of tying together the 'OP good guy trump card' role and the 'team leader' role, and because Maxima can't really fulfill both roles at the same time, this creates an inherent tension in any situation as to whether it would be more efficient for her to play team leader and direct everyone else or if it would be better for her to simply solve the problem herself. It also makes it very difficult for her to do the 'fight the minion beast at the edge of the panel' trick that conventional super teams do with characters like The Hulk or Superman while Cap or Batman comes up with a plan to stop the doomsday weapon with everyone else. The exception being during the Vehemence fight when Maxima did indeed go one-on-one but Sydney had to take on the team leader role.

Unfortunately there's also no one else to step up and take command while liberating Maxima from story-crimping double-duty. Hiro is the only other member of the team who functions in the same universe as 'professionalism' but he's also astonishingly bland.

[Shining Wrath]

Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.

Again, Omaha Beach. Prior to the troops landing there were battleships firing at the defenses. There were hundreds of bombers dumping thousands of bombs. One of the key things that broke the fire that had them pinned down was destroyers coming up to the point where they were almost running aground and firing 5" cannons at the German pillboxes.

Maxima with her super speed could rip Hench Wench's head off and fling it at Brut's head, knocking his head off, too. That would be much safer for the civilians.

[Keltest]

Again, Omaha Beach. Prior to the troops landing there were battleships firing at the defenses. There were hundreds of bombers dumping thousands of bombs. One of the key things that broke the fire that had them pinned down was destroyers coming up to the point where they were almost running aground and firing 5" cannons at the German pillboxes.

Maxima with her super speed could rip Hench Wench's head off and fling it at Brut's head, knocking his head off, too. That would be much safer for the civilians.

"could" in the sense that its physically possible, sure. But not "could" in the sense that she would actually be allowed to do that. Max murdering her opponents in the middle of the street, especially in a wildly gory fashion, would never be permitted by her superiors.

[Forum Explorer]

"could" in the sense that its physically possible, sure. But not "could" in the sense that she would actually be allowed to do that. Max murdering her opponents in the middle of the street, especially in a wildly gory fashion, would never be permitted by her superiors.

She could however, grab Hench Wench and throw her at Brut and than catch them both and hold them up by the throat until they surrendered.

[Keltest]

She could however, grab Hench Wench and throw her at Brut and than catch them both and hold them up by the throat until they surrendered.

Can she? When she maxes out her speed, she has to dump her strength and durability for it, and while she's still super, she isnt "face tank anything and everything" super either. I dont know that i would automatically give this fight to max if she has to incapacitate them nonlethally.

[Forum Explorer]

Can she? When she maxes out her speed, she has to dump her strength and durability for it, and while she's still super, she isnt "face tank anything and everything" super either. I dont know that i would automatically give this fight to max if she has to incapacitate them nonlethally.

Probably. If not, she could very well shoot Hench Wench in the throat, swap to strength, than throw her, zip back to where Brut is, back to strength, and than it's more or less like what I suggested.

EDIT: Remember, Brut started the fight with a sucker punch to Maxima when she was maxing out speed. And that only rattled her for a few seconds.

[Traab]

And now this is turning into armchair quarterbacking. Yes, there are a bazaillion options she COULD pick to do, you who have had a literal month to consider the options, angles, and possibilities here, can theorycraft all the ways that could possibly work to decide the best one you think she should pick during the 5 minutes she has even been aware that a fight is going on (if that long). That doesnt make it a failure on the part of the comic author that he doesnt solve it the way you think it could be written to be solved. There are genuine justifications for max to not be the one to auto handle every scenario, and she chooses to hold back specifically to let the rest of the team handle what they can because she IS on a team. It isnt team maxima and a dozen cheerleaders. They are generally capable of handling 95% of the issues that come up without her being the golden savior swooping in to take care of every situation herself in some absurdly overpowered way. There is enough in universe justification given to explain why narratively speaking dave isnt going to have every fight be over in the blink of an eye. It doesnt have to be flawless reasoning with absolutely no other options possible, it just needs to make some logical sense, and it does. This is like bagging on lotr because "OMG WHY NOT HAVE TEH EAGULZ CARRY THEM TO MORDOR?!" Just enjoy the freaking story!

[Forum Explorer]

And now this is turning into armchair quarterbacking. Yes, there are a bazaillion options she COULD pick to do, you who have had a literal month to consider the options, angles, and possibilities here, can theorycraft all the ways that could possibly work to decide the best one you think she should pick during the 5 minutes she has even been aware that a fight is going on (if that long). That doesnt make it a failure on the part of the comic author that he doesnt solve it the way you think it could be written to be solved. There are genuine justifications for max to not be the one to auto handle every scenario, and she chooses to hold back specifically to let the rest of the team handle what they can because she IS on a team. It isnt team maxima and a dozen cheerleaders. They are generally capable of handling 95% of the issues that come up without her being the golden savior swooping in to take care of every situation herself in some absurdly overpowered way. There is enough in universe justification given to explain why narratively speaking dave isnt going to have every fight be over in the blink of an eye. It doesnt have to be flawless reasoning with absolutely no other options possible, it just needs to make some logical sense, and it does. This is like bagging on lotr because "OMG WHY NOT HAVE TEH EAGULZ CARRY THEM TO MORDOR?!" Just enjoy the freaking story!

Well it's because I'm not enjoying this fight. I mean, Maxima has spent the last three comics with a gun pointed at a guy's **** and has done literally nothing else. So it is very much a situation of 'do something!' Pass the prisoner off to someone else if need be, just stop standing there.

[Traab]

She probably will now as its looking like the team cant handle this overpowered idiot. Also she is no longer holding brut's twig and berries at gunpoint. Probably best to hand him off to the others so she can focus on ms multipowers. Maybe round two will let us see better what his powers are as he deals with the others.

[Keltest]

Hey look, some good judgement. How about that?

[Shining Wrath]

I forgot that HW knocked Dabbler for a loop a few strips back.
So the only person on scene and conscious who looks like a match for HW is Maxima. In fact, I think she's the only flight-capable person left with Halo off being actually smart. Ergo, Maxima has to swap over to fighting HW, while the rest of the team handles Brut. At least until Dabbler rejoins the conscious.

I think that Dabbler menacing Brut's personal equipment with her vierhander might be effective. It may lack the laser targeting beam, but would still be rather menacing.

[TeChameleon]

Honestly, I think that Maxima has been playing this one fairly smart... although if what I'm assuming is correct, it probably should have been made clearer what was going on.

Basically, Hench Wench has not demonstrated power beyond what the rest of the team can handle. Sure, they're taking their lumps, but at the same time, nobody seems to be in major danger. Meanwhile, Brut has demonstrated that he can at least inconvenience Max, which may be more than the rest of the team can take without significant risk.

Thus, keeping a gun to Brut's... head... is potentially the best move Max has at the moment, while observing what Hench Wench is capable of. If the Wench proves to be more of a threat than initially assessed, then Max can hand Brut off to someone else and jump into the fray, even if that means taking the chance that Brut will overpower his captor and re-join the fight or escape. After all, he's surrendered, but he hasn't been restrained or incapacitated, so he's still very much in play.

[InvisibleBison]

After all, he's surrendered, but he hasn't been restrained or incapacitated, so he's still very much in play.

No, he's not in play - he surrendered. Surrendering means that you agree to stop fighting, even if you could continue to fight. It's possible that he'll ignore this and break his surrender, but that would be a crime (assuming the law in this universe is similar to in ours).

[Forum Explorer]

No, he's not in play - he surrendered. Surrendering means that you agree to stop fighting, even if you could continue to fight. It's possible that he'll ignore this and break his surrender, but that would be a crime (assuming the law in this universe is similar to in ours).

Because attempted murder, theft, and assault are one thing, but breaking surrender is much worse of a crime.

[Radar]

Because attempted murder, theft, and assault are one thing, but breaking surrender is much worse of a crime.
Once you surrender you have to keep your word, right? At least that's what superhero cartoons and comics have taught us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-JVvCrGC8) (I kind of like how surreal this scene is).

That being said, I agree: there is absolutely no reason to trust Brut and him trying to escape is a real possibility.

[Mechalich]

Because attempted murder, theft, and assault are one thing, but breaking surrender is much worse of a crime.

This hinges on the difference between actions in a theater of war versus criminal activity. War operates by a set of laws that allows for a great many normally criminal actions to take place, but still occurs under agreements as to what appropriate wartime activity. False surrender is therefore a war crime while killing an enemy combatant is not.

Criminals don't really 'surrender,' as a technical legal matter. Arrest applies from the moment the cops say 'you're under arrest.' Or potentially before that, a judge or a sheriff can put out a warrant for an arrest without the subject's knowledge and they don't even have to be in the same country. Instead criminals 'cease resistance,' which means that law enforcement has to stop using force against them (though they generally apply restraints). If somewhat starts resisting again, then forcible restraint will be applied. But yes, the legal consequences of a few extra counts of 'resisting arrest' and 'assaulting an officer' aren't really all that significant for someone up against, for example, multiple murder charges. However, it does tend to be awfully easy to prove.

In this particular circumstance assaulting and stealing from extraterrestrial criminals might be...jurisdictionally complicated to bring forward in court, but brawling with Archon racks up a significant rap sheet worth of charges all on its own.

[Shining Wrath]

That's an interesting point - what laws apply to interplanetary travelers? Does Earth need to sign a treaty for those laws to be in force on Earth? Or do the aliens assume you ought to know better?

[Traab]

This hinges on the difference between actions in a theater of war versus criminal activity. War operates by a set of laws that allows for a great many normally criminal actions to take place, but still occurs under agreements as to what appropriate wartime activity. False surrender is therefore a war crime while killing an enemy combatant is not.

Criminals don't really 'surrender,' as a technical legal matter. Arrest applies from the moment the cops say 'you're under arrest.' Or potentially before that, a judge or a sheriff can put out a warrant for an arrest without the subject's knowledge and they don't even have to be in the same country. Instead criminals 'cease resistance,' which means that law enforcement has to stop using force against them (though they generally apply restraints). If somewhat starts resisting again, then forcible restraint will be applied. But yes, the legal consequences of a few extra counts of 'resisting arrest' and 'assaulting an officer' aren't really all that significant for someone up against, for example, multiple murder charges. However, it does tend to be awfully easy to prove.

In this particular circumstance assaulting and stealing from extraterrestrial criminals might be...jurisdictionally complicated to bring forward in court, but brawling with Archon racks up a significant rap sheet worth of charges all on its own.

Im pretty sure that in war if you false surrender, the enemy is well within their rights to just shoot you dead the next time they see you, ignoring any other attempts you might make to surrender. That aside, Brut seems smart. He might try to escape, but I dont think he would return to the fight after being comprehensively shown why that would end badly for him. And max had a good plan, the problem is hench is now on a power trip and not listening to anyone else. I think a good solid pain causing hit will straighten her out of her " I AM INVINCIBLE!!!!!" mindset. A split lip and bloody nose has a way of reminding you that you are but mortal.

[Radar]

That's an interesting point - what laws apply to interplanetary travelers? Does Earth need to sign a treaty for those laws to be in force on Earth? Or do the aliens assume you ought to know better?
This will heavily depend on who you ask.

Pretty much all Earth countries assume that if you are on their territory, you need to comply with the local law which will obviously not include any interplanetary treaties a given country is not part of. There will be a small setback with the paperwork as aliens will not have any legally recognized ID on them, but otherwise business as normal and the aliens would be expected to know better. For diplomatic reasons they would most likely be assigned some cultural liaisons to avoid at least some mistakes. That being said, the issue had to be solved in Grrl Power universe a long time ago, since aliens are fairly common on Earth already and their legal status is well defined as long as the case of them being aliens is not going public.

On the other hand, the interplanetary laws might have a clause that they are to be respected even outside its bounds. For better or worse we also have examples of countries prosecuting people for crimes done outside said country regardless of what the local law said about given activities. From fictional examples, Prime Directive is precisely a law establishing how Federation members have to behave outside of Federation itself (specifically in contact with significantly less advanced civilizations). We know that the Xevoarchy also has similar laws in place, so that answers the question I guess.

There are still some gray areas as for example the shopping trip to Fracture that Deus did was perfectly legal in Earth terms, but was very much illegal in light of Xevoarchy laws. If he did not have Alari refugees as coverup, there might be some serious legal disputes where the answer is dictated more by politics than anything else.

[AvatarVecna]

Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.

This is a more relevant argument when Superman isn't already present. "Why didn't Superman fly halfway around the world to punch this guy Batman is having trouble with" is a dumb question. "Why is Superman just eating popcorn on the sidelines while Batman wrestles a guy ten weight-classes up" is a very different and far less dumb question. The second question is also a whole lot less dumb if this fight has already featured that villain shooting a kryptonite laser at Superman. The council fight didn't have this issue, the parts of that fight Max wasn't present for had a good explanation for why she wasn't immediately showing up and solving everything. The superbrawl didn't have this issue, since that was a golden PR opportunity and they had so many members on hand anyway. But here...

The heroes are having to deal with at least two hostile groups in the middle of NYC, which is also playing host to alien tourists. Maxima has already been severely hampered at one point during this engagement, albeit by a separate group entirely. The fight (at least to start out with) was focused on an attempt to kidnap her, that turned into what I believe is a second attempt to do the same thing. And the second group is primarily just one person with an unknown number of unknown powers. Maxima can't just punch people's heads off and sort out the paperwork later, but a three-way superbrawl in downtown NYC is a problem that so far she's being doing very little about. When the big guy surrendered and Hench-Wench didn't, that's about the moment where priorities shift, and not just cuz she has so many powers. Instead of taking the aliens seriously, or Hench-Wench seriously, or the fight location seriously, Maxima is trying to conduct an interrogation in the middle of a fight. It seems like misplaced priorities.

The note at the bottom of the previous comic indicates that Maxima will be getting involved in the fight now, and while I wish she'd have done that prior to several city blocks going dark, so far there's be fairly minimal risk to the actual people living in the city, relatively speaking.


I think a good solid pain causing hit will straighten her out of her " I AM INVINCIBLE!!!!!" mindset. A split lip and bloody nose has a way of reminding you that you are but mortal.

This is my guess for how it's gonna go as well. Hench-Wench has high quantity, but not high quality. Idk if it's something Maxima has necessarily already thought of, but if any of the guys that hired her were Maxima-tier, they'd probably have shown up in-person. I'm expecting Hench-Wench is going to be reminded of Maxima's message to the world:


"Since we're almost done here, I want to be sure I emphasize this. Superpowers are rare, and if you have them, chances are you're the only person you've ever met who has them. That isolation might have made you feel like you're the most powerful person on Earth. That you're unstoppable. That your power gives you primacy to hurt or rule over others. Well I promise you, we're more powerful."

...

"They say superheroes are best defined by their gallery of rogues. I can promise you that our rogues will either be incarcerated...in traction...or interred."

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think that Maxima had reasonable cause to ignore HW as a priority, because she had the proven immediate threat under control, and had other people nearby who could handle her displayed powers. Geokinesis was not a power that was expected, and Max is entirely in the right to try to gain tactical information from her captive first, before dealing with HW - as HW has proven herself to be a powered rookie, whereas a skilled user of geokinesis can be a lot of trouble.

Now that HW has drawn attention to herself, Maxima will indeed probably proceed to beat her down.

...

Also, I can't be the only one remembering who we know of in this universe that has geokinesis powers, and definitely has enough wealth to maintain a company of supervillains.

[Ibrinar]

And now this is turning into armchair quarterbacking. Yes, there are a bazaillion options she COULD pick to do, you who have had a literal month to consider the options, angles, and possibilities here, can theorycraft all the ways that could possibly work to decide the best one you think she should pick during the 5 minutes she has even been aware that a fight is going on (if that long). That doesnt make it a failure on the part of the comic author that he doesnt solve it the way you think it could be written to be solved. There are genuine justifications for max to not be the one to auto handle every scenario, and she chooses to hold back specifically to let the rest of the team handle what they can because she IS on a team. It isnt team maxima and a dozen cheerleaders. They are generally capable of handling 95% of the issues that come up without her being the golden savior swooping in to take care of every situation herself in some absurdly overpowered way. There is enough in universe justification given to explain why narratively speaking dave isnt going to have every fight be over in the blink of an eye. It doesnt have to be flawless reasoning with absolutely no other options possible, it just needs to make some logical sense, and it does. This is like bagging on lotr because "OMG WHY NOT HAVE TEH EAGULZ CARRY THEM TO MORDOR?!" Just enjoy the freaking story!

I might be confusing you with someone else but I think this isn't the first time you brought the "months to consider" style argument against someone suggesting something that really doesn't take month to consider nor was considered for months. (In another thread but don't ask me which. Might have been someone else the last time it annoyed me.) In fact most people probably only think about it briefly when commenting on it probably not even more than "during the 5 minutes she has even been aware that a fight is going" (and often have neither training nor experience to make up plans). It is an annoying and silly strawman argument at least only bring it up when someone comes up with some complicated plan..

[AvatarVecna]

Well that's a problem.

[Keltest]

So hey, remember those arguments about the usefulness of giving her gun training?

[Forum Explorer]

So hey, remember those arguments about the usefulness of giving her gun training?

Considering how ineffective her gun was...

[Keltest]

Considering how ineffective her gun was...

Thats rather beside the point. Access to her orbs was cut off and she still had a weapon which she knew how to use safely and (relatively) effectively.

[lord_khaine]

Its actually not besides the point. Its more dead center on it.
Since it turned out that ALL the difference gun training managed to do, was "A slight inconvenience" :smalltongue:

[Sean Mirrsen]

Its actually not besides the point. Its more dead center on it.
Since it turned out that ALL the difference gun training managed to do, was "A slight inconvenience" :smalltongue:

Do we know for sure that beheading Concretia's golem form doesn't at least temporarily drop her out of the golem? She has to get a new body when it is shattered completely, but we don't see the aftermath of Peggy's headshot on her in the original super fight.

If she's forced to spend a few seconds diving into more stone to re-body herself now, that's still a "slight inconvenience" for her, but it's better than nothing, and might give Sydney time to fumble up a better distraction from her utility belt. Or possibly figure out a way to break the orbs out.

[Keltest]

Do we know for sure that beheading Concretia's golem form doesn't at least temporarily drop her out of the golem? She has to get a new body when it is shattered completely, but we don't see the aftermath of Peggy's headshot on her in the original super fight.

If she's forced to spend a few seconds diving into more stone to re-body herself now, that's still a "slight inconvenience" for her, but it's better than nothing, and might give Sydney time to fumble up a better distraction from her utility belt. Or possibly figure out a way to break the orbs out.

More to the point, what happens when next time it isnt concretia, but somebody who actually would be incapacitated or otherwise seriously hampered by a gunshot to the head?

[lord_khaine]

More to the point, what happens when next time it isnt concretia, but somebody who actually would be incapacitated or otherwise seriously hampered by a gunshot to the head?

Alright more to the point.
You have already had a likely once in a lifetime occation of A) Sydney having someone else sneak up on her, who are B) able to block access to the orbs C) not bothering to knock Sydney out instead, and D) slow enough that Sydney can instead draw her gun and fire that?

The answer is nothing. Nothing happens, because its unlikely to ever happen again.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Alright more to the point.
You have already had a likely once in a lifetime occation of A) Sydney having someone else sneak up on her, who are B) able to block access to the orbs C) not bothering to knock Sydney out instead, and D) slow enough that Sydney can instead draw her gun and fire that?

The answer is nothing. Nothing happens, because its unlikely to ever happen again.

The actual reason why it's unlikely to happen again is that countermeasures will be devised to prevent it from happening.

Also, you don't really need much to stop Sydney from using the orbs for long enough to matter. She needs to directly touch their surface. Get the drop on her with a bucket of paint, and she's done. Either coat the orbs, or her hands, and she's limited to using them as limited range flails until she gets through whatever it was you used. And seeing as it's already happened twice, getting the drop on Sydney out of her bubble is not all that difficult.

[Forum Explorer]

The actual reason why it's unlikely to happen again is that countermeasures will be devised to prevent it from happening.

Also, you don't really need much to stop Sydney from using the orbs for long enough to matter. She needs to directly touch their surface. Get the drop on her with a bucket of paint, and she's done. Either coat the orbs, or her hands, and she's limited to using them as limited range flails until she gets through whatever it was you used. And seeing as it's already happened twice, getting the drop on Sydney out of her bubble is not all that difficult.

More to the point is that Concretia disabled the orbs, but that was a dumb move. If she had done that same wrapping move on Sydney, than Sydney is completely helpless, and she isn't even slightly annoyed by the pistol shots.

I mean, in this situation, an ordinary person could have been even more effective by simply putting a gun to Sydney's head, or even just tazing her. You get the drop of Sydney, you win.

[Radar]

More to the point is that Concretia disabled the orbs, but that was a dumb move. If she had done that same wrapping move on Sydney, than Sydney is completely helpless, and she isn't even slightly annoyed by the pistol shots.

I mean, in this situation, an ordinary person could have been even more effective by simply putting a gun to Sydney's head, or even just tazing her. You get the drop of Sydney, you win.
If she does have something to incapacitate Sydney, then sure. But it simply might not be the case. I guess Sydney is a target of opportunity and not the goal of this operation.

As for why the balls and not Sydney herself: going for Sydney could not be done covertly and I would guess that Concretia's powers are not fast enough for her to bet Sydney would not have enough time to call the balls to herself.

In short: balls are a smaller target that is also conveniently out of Sydney's sight.

[Traab]

I think she needs to start training to maintain her constant movement of the orbs like when she fought math which would make it harder to trap the orbs, trap her, or even sneak attack her. Or, as an easier alternate, keep the shield orb in your hand at all times, even if not activated. Much faster reaction to surprise if she doesnt have to call the shield orb to hand before she can activate it. Not sure which might be better. The constant rotation of orbs all around her is harder to maintain, but makes attacking her harder because these orbs are in the way, and it also was shown by math that its possible to use that against her too. The shield in hand at all times option would make for quicker reaction, but sneak attacks are still a thing that would work. Take a lump of concrete to the back of the head with no warning and night night sydney.

[Kantaki]

Keeping the shield orb in her hand all the time isn't very practical either. What if she needs both hands?

[Traab]

Keeping the shield orb in her hand all the time isn't very practical either. What if she needs both hands?

Sure maybe a better way to put it is, keep it in hand whenever you dont need to use it for something else. Its funny that all her orbs pretty much, could be useful to have in hand for a variety of scenarios, I just think the shield is the overall best option to keep handy at all times. Like, say concretia trapped her inside a cocoon of cement, she could use her ppo to blast her way out, she could use the lighthook to smash her way out, she could use the teleorb to teleport her way out or even send a message calling for help, and of course, her shield orb to keep from being captured or assaulted. But then again, her other orbs wont protect her from a direct attack, just aid her in escaping after BEING attacked. The shield is in general her best bet for staying safe until backup can arrive.

[TeChameleon]

In response to all the people saying that Sydney was crazy for jamming her gun in Concretia's mouth... the author's notes below clarified that Sydney knew Concretia (the two met during the super-brawl at the restaurant) and that having her golem-head blown off was a temporary inconvenience. It's not Sydney being psychotic.

... I wonder what would happen if Sydney ran and jumped out of the building? It's been made clear that it's physically impossible for her to be separated from the orbs by more than a certain distance (maybe 7 metres or so?), at least by any force that's been shown in the comic thus far. Would she just end up hanging from the side of the building, or would the orbs smash out of the cocoon? Seems like it could possibly go either way.

[The Glyphstone]

Based on how they shackled her at the bank in the very beginning, when the tube was pinned under the car, she would hang off the side of the building. They will move to her if they can, but weren't able to break out of a leather carrying case.

[Traab]

Its a strange effect as they will switch between what gets halted based on which is moving away from the other. Sydney got stopped dead when she left them in the car, but maxima got stopped dead when she tried to move the tube away from sydney while sydney felt nothing. So yeah, sydney would be dangling out the window.

[Ibrinar]

Thats rather beside the point. Access to her orbs was cut off and she still had a weapon which she knew how to use safely and (relatively) effectively.

Yeah I think this has rather effectively illustrated the case of the anti gun focus faction. :P Not because the gun didn't work, but because if someone had instilled some caution into her instead she would have at least put her shield up while taking pictures. The problem here was her behavior. You could say there is no way to predict that concretia is there but Sidney comes from an active super fight to stash alien high tech. Someone tailing her could definitely happen. She needs some training about general behavior, and in Sidney's case one of the central messages should be "if there is any possibility of danger and you dons't have to use two other orbs, always bubble up."

Edit: About the new page, unless their organization kinda sucks and they have no oversight from base (and i don't think we have seen any? but they should have enough military and other roots to not skimp on something obvious like that) what she said should be plenty and her position is probably tracked unless they decided to not have gps. But of course the rest is occupied so could be trouble.

[Traab]

Yeah it should be a matter of seconds to track down and locate sydney just by her last known coordinates. That arm guard of hers has gps in it automatically. Only downside is figuring out where in this high rise she is. And what precisely concretia has in mind. if its just a snatch and grab of the tech then fine, if she intends to deliver a brief monologue then kill sydney, then she is in trouble.

[Dragonus45]

Given her powers, if she plans to not be a moron about it Concretia should be out before even max could disengage from the other fight and get there. Her powers are pretty wild for being mobile and staying hidden in an urban environment.

[HandofShadows]

Why is Sydney in a chair? :smallconfused: Something else is going on here methinks.

[Traab]

Why is Sydney in a chair? :smallconfused: Something else is going on here methinks.

That is a very good point. She doesnt even seem restrained to the chair in any way. Its literally just a concrete (and very uncomfortable) seat. There might be a quick bit of info being passed on. Think Angel from Buffy She might be here to pass on some cryptic info then vanish into the shadows as max or whoever, shows up to "save" sydney. "When the dog howls at the dawn, cucumbers shall roam the forest. Then loose the crocodile of hearth and home."

[tyckspoon]

That is a very good point. She doesnt even seem restrained to the chair in any way. Its literally just a concrete (and very uncomfortable) seat.

The orbs were also moved a little bit further back and away - Concretia shoved them down to the floor. Sydney is restrained by being at the maximum permitted separation between her and the orbs now - she doesn't need any further physical restraints because even leaning forward to try to stand up out of the chair moves her too far from the orbs.

[Radar]

(...) "When the dog howls at the dawn, cucumbers shall roam the forest. Then loose the crocodile of hearth and home."
Heh, sounds like some proverb Cho from No Need for Bushido would try to use. Brings back good memories.

[Forum Explorer]

That is a very good point. She doesnt even seem restrained to the chair in any way. Its literally just a concrete (and very uncomfortable) seat. There might be a quick bit of info being passed on. Think Angel from Buffy She might be here to pass on some cryptic info then vanish into the shadows as max or whoever, shows up to "save" sydney. "When the dog howls at the dawn, cucumbers shall roam the forest. Then loose the crocodile of hearth and home."

I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but she has certainly made an effort to keep Sydney relatively unharmed and conscious. Like I said earlier, her first move could've been disabling Sydney. So her wanting to talk to Sydney seems likely.

[lord_khaine]

Considering Concretia's strenght. Yeah she could absolutely have hurt Sydney if she wanted to.
So she does not. That kinda leaves a talk as the remaining option.

[Dragonus45]

Talk is far from the only option. "Politely and nonlethally disable unharmed so no one wants to vaporize me." is pretty much the top of the list.

[lord_khaine]

Talk is far from the only option. "Politely and nonlethally disable unharmed so no one wants to vaporize me." is pretty much the top of the list.

Your thinking about the fear of Maxima retaliating.
I think its quite evident she is far to professional to take the law into her own hands.

And i also think, everyone can agree on that with a combination of super strenght and concrete control there are much simpler ways of no leathally disabling someone.

Concretia literally made a chair for her captive...
Besides showing off i think its a rather clear sign she want to negotiate something.

[Shining Wrath]

Either she wants to send a message to Archon via Sydney - which seems like a lot of work - or she wants something only Sydney can provide. Which is probably the orbs. Which may mean trying to figure out if the orbs can be separated from Sydney without killing her because you don't want all of Archon after you.

[lord_khaine]

Attempting to steal the orbs is also not a unreasonable goal.
But again you hardly need to create a chair for Sydney if your doing that.

[The Glyphstone]

Option 3 then, attempted kidnapping?

[Forum Explorer]

Option 3 then, attempted kidnapping?

In which case she should've done more to disable Sydney. Like a stone casing around the upper half of her head. There's no reason to allow Sydney to see or hear anything if you are kidnapping her.

[lord_khaine]

Even for a kidnapping its weird?
If your going to try and steal a heroine, you stuff her into a bag and fly off at high speed.
You dont leave her in a comfy chair, while iddling around.

This most of all look like a recruitment attemp. Or at least an interview with some shadowy mastermind.
Since at the moment, it does not matter if Max shows up. Concretia's cement body is expendable.
And her energy projection has the perfect location to slip away in.

[Radar]

Even for a kidnapping its weird?
If your going to try and steal a heroine, you stuff her into a bag and fly off at high speed.
You dont leave her in a comfy chair, while iddling around.

This most of all look like a recruitment attemp. Or at least an interview with some shadowy mastermind.
Since at the moment, it does not matter if Max shows up. Concretia's cement body is expendable.
And her energy projection has the perfect location to slip away in.
It does look as if Concretia wanted to talk.

If it was a kidnapping though, it might still make sense. Quite obviously in that case Sydney is a target of opportunity, so they did not prepare extraction from that particular place and the call Concretia made might be related to that.

[Traab]

Its entirely possible this is a kidnapping attempt, concretia might remain behind to be this person (https://youtu.be/zGL-ejw9m78?t=40). Hopefully it ends better for her. Or she is calling for pickup seeing as she isnt the type to make quick getaways with cargo. Remember this whole thing started as an attempt to capture maxima and has spiraled into an attempt to grab valuable people or tech free for all.

[sihnfahl]

Aaand, this being a geeky ref, we're probably due for a 'Sword of Omens, Come To My Hand' moment.

[Radar]

Its entirely possible this is a kidnapping attempt, concretia might remain behind to be this person (https://youtu.be/zGL-ejw9m78?t=40). Hopefully it ends better for her. Or she is calling for pickup seeing as she isnt the type to make quick getaways with cargo. Remember this whole thing started as an attempt to capture maxima and has spiraled into an attempt to grab valuable people or tech free for all.
Keep in mind that the kidnapping group is different than the later loot whatever you can group, so if the latter group decided for kidnapping, they might not have been prepared for the occasion.

If we are going by Commando scenario (and I hope not as Concretia seems to be fairly inteligent and that is a good trait for both protagonists and antagonists), she could be unfortunate to be this person (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopRenk1oaQ), or that one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCYMoD8SfpQ), but most likely not this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-tRErs5UcI) - she is too level-headed for that.

[TeChameleon]

As a largely irrelevant tangent... what, exactly, is up with Concretia's hair? Her spirit form (or whatever) has that as well, which would theoretically mean that either her flesh-and-blood body has (or had) that same hairstyle, or else that hairstyle is so strongly rooted in her self-image that it manifests on her psychic manifestation or whatever that is.

In either case... wut :smallconfused:

[lord_khaine]

If it was a kidnapping though, it might still make sense. Quite obviously in that case Sydney is a target of opportunity, so they did not prepare extraction from that particular place and the call Concretia made might be related to that.

Well i think the point remains, that if this was a kidnapping, Concretia would be preparing Sydney for transportation.
Not preparing her a comfy seat.

Concretia is likely calling for extraction. Of the stasis pod Sydney had stolen earlier.
As such that thing is a lot more valuable.

And stealing it wont provoke Archon nearly as much as stealing Sydney. Placing her in a "comfy" chair is likely just showing off then.

[Radar]

Well i think the point remains, that if this was a kidnapping, Concretia would be preparing Sydney for transportation.
Not preparing her a comfy seat.

Concretia is likely calling for extraction. Of the stasis pod Sydney had stolen earlier.
As such that thing is a lot more valuable.

And stealing it wont provoke Archon nearly as much as stealing Sydney. Placing her in a "comfy" chair is likely just showing off then.
You do have a point. Stealing something only makes sens, if you will be able to get away with it. Stealing alien technology gathers less attention than stealing an Archon member however valuable those orbs and Sydney might be.

[Lapak]

I'm now wondering what would happen if someone targeted Sydney (but not the orbs) with some kind of teleportation technology. Can you beam her up without the orbs? What if the closing portal that cut her off on that other world/time had closed when she was on one side and the orbs were on the other?

[Keltest]

I'm now wondering what would happen if someone targeted Sydney (but not the orbs) with some kind of teleportation technology. Can you beam her up without the orbs? What if the closing portal that cut her off on that other world/time had closed when she was on one side and the orbs were on the other?

We know that she's gone through portals before, so i assume that the orbs get teleported with her whether theyre targeted or not.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah. And i mean. Its not impossible to steal Sydney. Archon isnt omnicent or omnipotent.
But why the heck even bother trying?

As we can see. Supers, even fairly powerful ones, is something you hire on the grey market.
While not provoking one of the more powerful super organisations on the planet.

So unless you have a plan that specifically requires Sydney for some plot reason.
Then i actually think her value is negative. More trouble than its worth.

Alien technology meanwhile is priceless.

[Traab]

Yeah. And i mean. Its not impossible to steal Sydney. Archon isnt omnicent or omnipotent.
But why the heck even bother trying?

As we can see. Supers, even fairly powerful ones, is something you hire on the grey market.
While not provoking one of the more powerful super organisations on the planet.

So unless you have a plan that specifically requires Sydney for some plot reason.
Then i actually think her value is negative. More trouble than its worth.

Alien technology meanwhile is priceless.

Its not completely impossible that the aliens know about sydneys orbs and want them. Cora was able to figure out they were disgustingly advanced hyper tech from the nth dimension or whatever. She was VERY adamant about keeping that possibility quiet. And sydney did a LOT of direct combat against whatever the heck that alien kaiju death fleet was, getting scanned at least once that we know of. Im not saying thats whats going on here, but I think it isnt outside the realm of possibility. Most likely? Im thinking deus using his connections to archon to find out about this, and his connection to various for hire super types to scavenge some tech that looked interesting. After all, this would hardly be the first time he has done this.

[Radar]

Its not completely impossible that the aliens know about sydneys orbs and want them. Cora was able to figure out they were disgustingly advanced hyper tech from the nth dimension or whatever. She was VERY adamant about keeping that possibility quiet. And sydney did a LOT of direct combat against whatever the heck that alien kaiju death fleet was, getting scanned at least once that we know of. Im not saying thats whats going on here, but I think it isnt outside the realm of possibility. Most likely? Im thinking deus using his connections to archon to find out about this, and his connection to various for hire super types to scavenge some tech that looked interesting. After all, this would hardly be the first time he has done this.
Deus knows very well that the best way to win a one-on-one fight is to be the third to arrive.

[Traab]

Deus knows very well that the best way to win a one-on-one fight is to be the third to arrive.

Which covers this pretty well. The aliens showed up, then the super squad showed up (I dont think hench wench has shown concretia type powers yet so its more potential proof she is unaffiliated with them) and now here his minions are to scoop up breadcrumbs around the edges and do so in a professional and efficient manner. Its pretty textbook deus.

[sihnfahl]

I dont think hench wench has shown concretia type powers yet so its more potential proof she is unaffiliated with them
Since she's only shown a limited powerset, and the situation hasn't called for Concretia-type powers, perhaps a bit premature?

She's already got invulnerability and geomancy. IIRC, Concretia's powers are more like a limited geomancy - she can form a 'shell' for a physical body and manipulate stone and stone-like substances.

Shell isn't necessary when you're invulnerable except as 'ablative armor' for things that actually hurt (and they weren't expecting things that 'hurt'), and geomancy (like lobbing an entire pillar of earth, Avatar earthbender fashion, or flying pillars Edward Elric style) is better than just being able to manipulate concrete into shapes.

[lord_khaine]

Its not completely impossible that the aliens know about sydneys orbs and want them. Cora was able to figure out they were disgustingly advanced hyper tech from the nth dimension or whatever. She was VERY adamant about keeping that possibility quiet. And sydney did a LOT of direct combat against whatever the heck that alien kaiju death fleet was, getting scanned at least once that we know of. Im not saying thats whats going on here, but I think it isnt outside the realm of possibility. Most likely? Im thinking deus using his connections to archon to find out about this, and his connection to various for hire super types to scavenge some tech that looked interesting. After all, this would hardly be the first time he has done this.

I do think its exceptionally unlikely that the alien Kaiju's have managed to get contacts on earth they can manipulate into stealing stuff for them.
Especially in such a short time.

I also think the time frame your putting up fits badly.
Your intelligence network SUCKS if you need spies to find out there are aliens walking around in new york :smallbiggrin:
And i dont think the actual fighting had been going on for more than litterally a couple minuttes before the mercenaries stepped in.
So i think that its more likely they to start with was in the area to steal alien tech.

Meaning that again its much more likely concretia is part of the team stealing alien technology.
And they may, or may not work for Deus.

But actually. I think its unlikely. Just because Deus has his fingers in a lot of pies, then it does not mean his fingers are in all of them.
Alien technology is a gigantic prize, that just about every power on earth are itching to get their fingers on.
Heck, its not impossible a rival branch like the CIA would stage this to get a counter to Maxima.

I actually think thats more likely than Deus being behind this. Since Deus already completed his own master plan on that front.
If he want Alien technology, he can just go on another shopping trip.

[Sean Mirrsen]

But actually. I think its unlikely. Just because Deus has his fingers in a lot of pies, then it does not mean his fingers are in all of them.
Alien technology is a gigantic prize, that just about every power on earth are itching to get their fingers on.
Heck, its not impossible a rival branch like the CIA would stage this to get a counter to Maxima.

I actually think thats more likely than Deus being behind this. Since Deus already completed his own master plan on that front.
If he want Alien technology, he can just go on another shopping trip.

Again. It's entirely possible that a certain somebody, with known geokinetic/geomancy powers (that isn't Concretia, as far as we know), and a massive stash of wealth, could be behind this.

He's been mentioned all of once before, and doesn't have a name, but is definitely on Archon's radar as a potential threat (economically if nothing else), and would fit into this concept of a "supervillain LLC".

[Keltest]

Again. It's entirely possible that a certain somebody, with known geokinetic/geomancy powers (that isn't Concretia, as far as we know), and a massive stash of wealth, could be behind this.

He's been mentioned all of once before, and doesn't have a name, but is definitely on Archon's radar as a potential threat (economically if nothing else), and would fit into this concept of a "supervillain LLC".

But what would be the point? He's already rich, and as you point out Archon already knows about him. He doesnt seem to have any ambitions of doing any actual harm so... what does he actually get out of this?

[Radar]

But what would be the point? He's already rich, and as you point out Archon already knows about him. He doesnt seem to have any ambitions of doing any actual harm so... what does he actually get out of this?
Exactly! He has as much money as he wants without having to work for it. He is also reasonable about it and takes only as much as he needs to maintain a comfortable life without disturbing the market. There is no reason whatsoever for such a person to risk everything by getting into criminal activity. There is nothing for him to gain and a lot to lose.

[lord_khaine]

Exactly! He has as much money as he wants without having to work for it. He is also reasonable about it and takes only as much as he needs to maintain a comfortable life without disturbing the market. There is no reason whatsoever for such a person to risk everything by getting into criminal activity. There is nothing for him to gain and a lot to lose.

He could have been doing a lot with his money to gain power and influence. But he isnt.
So yes. Does seem like he was just an example of someone with super powers being smart about it.

Also. No need to pull out new suspects.
We still have a few spare faces on the suspect list.
https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-186-fingers-to-maximum-steepleage/

[Radar]

Sooo... I was archive binging a bit and I found this page (https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-500-bravery-in-the-faces-of-danger/). Apparently Sydney's flying orbs are strong enough to easily break troll arm. Not that it had any lasting effects, but it is quite a force.

Also, I only just noticed, that someone here (https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-505-team-sweep/) is using Magic cards for actual magic (bottom panel, some purple lights in the air with cards all around). He even taped a land card.

[Traab]

It was two exerting leverage to cause it to snap between the combined forces. I think thats still less than the amount to break through concrete. Especially without room for momentum to build or leverage to exert. Just rattling around inside a tight concrete orb isnt enough to do much.

[Sean Mirrsen]

They are, however, indestructible. And can spin very quickly. It might take some concentration, but Sydney could more or less free the orbs by turning them into an angle grinder.

[Traab]

They are, however, indestructible. And can spin very quickly. It might take some concentration, but Sydney could more or less free the orbs by turning them into an angle grinder.

They are perfectly smooth and so have nothing grind with, and also, have never really shown that she can spin them at the super high speed needed to grind things down anyway. At the LOW end angle grinders spin 33 times per second.

[Radar]

It was two exerting leverage to cause it to snap between the combined forces. I think thats still less than the amount to break through concrete. Especially without room for momentum to build or leverage to exert. Just rattling around inside a tight concrete orb isnt enough to do much.
Hard to say really. For one, we do not have comparison between concrete and troll bones. The second point is that we do not know, how Sydney steers those orbs. Specifically, can they go from 0 to full speed, or do they need time to accelerate? Still, I think that the bigger problem is that Concretia might notice what Sydney was doing before the orbs are free (it is hard to crack concrete quietly) and counter that by applying more layers of trap or discourage Sydney from her attempts in a pointy or blunt manner.


They are perfectly smooth and so have nothing grind with, and also, have never really shown that she can spin them at the super high speed needed to grind things down anyway. At the LOW end angle grinders spin 33 times per second.
Ball mills work with as perfectly smooth balls and cylinder lining as possible, so it is still possible - just need to apply solid pressure.

[TeChameleon]

I find it kind of interesting that Concretia is engaging with Sydney on her own level- "Utility belts are fair game. Masks are against the rules." That's a pretty clear understanding of superhero tropes to be able to have an immediate, appropriate response. It also suggests that either Concretia is either a lot colder than previously indicated (heh... stone-cold), or that there might be something slightly less nefarious going on than there appears to be at first blush.

[lord_khaine]

Ball mills work with as perfectly smooth balls and cylinder lining as possible, so it is still possible - just need to apply solid pressure.

Still missing any sort of supporting evidence for, that the orbs can spin with the orders of magnitude higher speed than we have seen so far.


I find it kind of interesting that Concretia is engaging with Sydney on her own level- "Utility belts are fair game. Masks are against the rules." That's a pretty clear understanding of superhero tropes to be able to have an immediate, appropriate response. It also suggests that either Concretia is either a lot colder than previously indicated (heh... stone-cold), or that there might be something slightly less nefarious going on than there appears to be at first blush.

A relevant observation. As it turns out Concretia is a hostage herself.

[Forum Explorer]

Didn't see that one coming, I'll admit. Certainly explains why she was so gentle with Sydney.

[Radar]

Still missing any sort of supporting evidence for, that the orbs can spin with the orders of magnitude higher speed than we have seen so far.
Agreed. Hence the first part of my previous post - we do not have enough information about how the orbs move.


A relevant observation. As it turns out Concretia is a hostage herself.
Indeed. I hope there is a way to track her down so she can be helped. The question remains, who kidnapped her.

[Sean Mirrsen]

The orbs' current maximum established velocity is around Mach 16, albeit while towing/towed by Sydney. We likewise have no evidence against the notion that they can travel just as fast relative to Sydney should she will them to.

Also that is a curious development. Given the setup I don't expect an immediate resolution. And the stasis pod will likely be stolen. But it'll be interesting to see what exactly happens.

[lord_khaine]

The orbs' current maximum established velocity is around Mach 16, albeit while towing/towed by Sydney.

Yeah no, by that argument Sydney's shoes also have a maximum velocity of march 16.
Those are 2 different modes of travel. And so should not be compared.


We likewise have no evidence against the notion that they can travel just as fast relative to Sydney should she will them to.

And we absolutely have evidence against that notion. Several pieces actually.
Sydney has toyed around with them a lot. She has never demonstrated the ability to make them move so fast they turn into a blur.
If they could move at march 16, they would not have broken Sciona's arm. They would have taken it off cleanly.
They would certainly have been able to explode out of their concrete prison had they been able to move faster than a bullet.

[Keltest]

Yeah no, by that argument Sydney's shoes also have a maximum velocity of march 16.
Those are 2 different modes of travel. And so should not be compared.



And we absolutely have evidence against that notion. Several pieces actually.
Sydney has toyed around with them a lot. She has never demonstrated the ability to make them move so fast they turn into a blur.
If they could move at march 16, they would not have broken Sciona's arm. They would have taken it off cleanly.
They would certainly have been able to explode out of their concrete prison had they been able to move faster than a bullet.

Youre confusing maximum velocity with acceleration. A racecar going at full speed is going to be able to tear its way through a garage door, albeit with considerable damage to both. A racecar starting from a dead stop in a garage is going to dent the garage door, at worst.

[Traab]

Youre confusing maximum velocity with acceleration. A racecar going at full speed is going to be able to tear its way through a garage door, albeit with considerable damage to both. A racecar starting from a dead stop in a garage is going to dent the garage door, at worst.

We also have never once seen her manipulate the orbs at high speed. Every time she manually moves them around its at best fastball speeds, From dealing with math to clonking people with them in the head or crotch, she has never once moved them very fast. At least not even remotely at mach speeds.

[Shining Wrath]

Since there's a lot of players out there with different abilities - maybe someone knows how to separate Sydney from the orbs, and doesn't want to kill her for reasons (such as the wrath of Archon, kindness, maybe want to interrogate her, Concretia made it part of the bargain, yada yada).

What doesn't make sense to me about the alien power pod being the reason is that it's really too soon to pull that plan together. Dabbler pulled the pod from the machine, handed it to Sydney and asked her to hide it how many minutes ago in-strip? Five? And in that duration unknown baddies


realize there's a valuable theft to be made,
deploy Concretia who somehow follows flying Halo although flight is not a power we've seen her use,
give Concretia instructions on how to handle the situation and a contact number


The list of known baddies who are that smart, organized, and capable of keeping Concretia's body away from her is ... Deus? Sciona? Not so many.

So I think it's NOT the power supply. Someone was after Sydney, and knew where she might show up.

[TeChameleon]

There's also the factor that the power supply is not, in fact, in the box- Dabbler 'ported it to her lab, so Sydney doesn't have it.

However, Concretia had to have followed Sydney in some fashion, or else have a precog guiding her, because Sydney went to a random place to hide something she didn't know existed less than twenty minutes previously. So if Sydney herself didn't know she was going there, I don't think Concretia could have been there waiting for her (unless, of course, like I said, precog).

There seems to be another layer at play here, since Concretia herself isn't a willing participant.

... also, either Concretia is smarter and a lot more patient than she originally seemed to be, there's someone very clever behind her, since the whole 'lock Sydney in place via the orbs' thing isn't exactly widely known. Then again, I can see her approaching this carefully, since she was humbled pretty thoroughly by Math, and she seems willing enough to learn from her mistakes.

[Radar]

Since there's a lot of players out there with different abilities - maybe someone knows how to separate Sydney from the orbs, and doesn't want to kill her for reasons (such as the wrath of Archon, kindness, maybe want to interrogate her, Concretia made it part of the bargain, yada yada).

What doesn't make sense to me about the alien power pod being the reason is that it's really too soon to pull that plan together. Dabbler pulled the pod from the machine, handed it to Sydney and asked her to hide it how many minutes ago in-strip? Five? And in that duration unknown baddies


realize there's a valuable theft to be made,
deploy Concretia who somehow follows flying Halo although flight is not a power we've seen her use,
give Concretia instructions on how to handle the situation and a contact number


The list of known baddies who are that smart, organized, and capable of keeping Concretia's body away from her is ... Deus? Sciona? Not so many.

So I think it's NOT the power supply. Someone was after Sydney, and knew where she might show up.
I think you are being a bit too specific here in both possible goals. If the idea was to loot, than it was not about stasis pod or its power source - it was about any alien tech they could get their hands on. Concretia might still be working with Brut and Hench Wench.

If it was about kidnapping, targeting specifically Sydney in a moment, when she is close to Maxima and quite a lot of other supers is a bad idea. Nobody could count on Sydney going away from the others alone. This plan hinges on Dabbler asking her to hide the stasis pod, so it could not have been planned in advance just as much as stealing precisely the stasis pod could not.

I think capturing Sydney was just a lucky opportunity for either Concretia (if she wants to get some help with her problem) or Concretia's captors. Which way things will go, we will learn soon I guess.

[Keltest]

We also have never once seen her manipulate the orbs at high speed. Every time she manually moves them around its at best fastball speeds, From dealing with math to clonking people with them in the head or crotch, she has never once moved them very fast. At least not even remotely at mach speeds.

Given the short distance from her they can be moved, acceleration is still the limiting factor there unless she wants to create some sort of defense of hypersonic orbs flying around her in a tight circle, and at that point i think she would be more likely to hurt herself than anybody else.

[Shining Wrath]

So ... Concretia has had no body for a long time. Long enough to miss various forms of carnal stimulation. And she's coming around to the idea of letting the good guys help her with her problem.

"You're losing your audience here". :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Youre confusing maximum velocity with acceleration. A racecar going at full speed is going to be able to tear its way through a garage door, albeit with considerable damage to both. A racecar starting from a dead stop in a garage is going to dent the garage door, at worst.

No im not confusing anything.
And your actually quite wrong. Garage doors are often flimsy garbage made of wood. While you dont get a high maximum velocity without powerful acceleration.
So no. Even from a dead stop the racecar should leave a nice hole in the door.
And the same would apply to theoretical orbs able to move on their own at march 16.


Given the short distance from her they can be moved, acceleration is still the limiting factor there unless she wants to create some sort of defense of hypersonic orbs flying around her in a tight circle, and at that point i think she would be more likely to hurt herself than anybody else.

So... now your arguing against march 16 balls? Make up your mind :smalltongue:


I think you are being a bit too specific here in both possible goals. If the idea was to loot, than it was not about stasis pod or its power source - it was about any alien tech they could get their hands on. Concretia might still be working with Brut and Hench Wench.

If it was about kidnapping, targeting specifically Sydney in a moment, when she is close to Maxima and quite a lot of other supers is a bad idea. Nobody could count on Sydney going away from the others alone. This plan hinges on Dabbler asking her to hide the stasis pod, so it could not have been planned in advance just as much as stealing precisely the stasis pod could not.

I think capturing Sydney was just a lucky opportunity for either Concretia (if she wants to get some help with her problem) or Concretia's captors. Which way things will go, we will learn soon I guess.

Oh yeah certainly.
The moment you got aliens walking around in new york, you got the chance to steal priceless pieces of technology.
Its no piece of genius to hire a few super powered mercenaris then. And make them keep an eye open for targets of oppotunity.

At that point. When you already have Concretia's energy projection hovering in the area.
Then Sydney flying off on her own with stolen tech is just a target of oppotunity.
As we also see on Concretia having to steal a smartphone to call for a pickup. Thats not Xanatos level planning.
Thats improvisation on the spot.

[sihnfahl]

As we also see on Concretia having to steal a smartphone to call for a pickup. Thats not Xanatos level planning. Thats improvisation on the spot.
Any level of planning that would require them predicting that Sydney would go to that particular building and that specific floor would be absolutely ridiculous in a predictive model.

"She has a cell phone, so if she leaves with any tech, subdue her and use her phone to contact us. Remember this number."

[Traab]

I think its less that she is considering switching sides and more she has to pass the time waiting somehow and it doesnt hurt her to confirm why she has no real choice in the matter. If she was a bit more savvy I would say she is setting up an eventual plea bargain. After all, hard to blame her for doing what she had to do to save her life. If someone said, "Rob that bank or I shoot you" I think that would be taken into account upon sentencing. So if she gets caught by arcswat and taken in, she has the ability to claim duress and maybe get at the very least a solid chance at jabberwokky status if not being let go. After all, she hasnt actually hurt anyone that we know of yet, so it would be fairly simple to justify.

[Keltest]

I think its less that she is considering switching sides and more she has to pass the time waiting somehow and it doesnt hurt her to confirm why she has no real choice in the matter. If she was a bit more savvy I would say she is setting up an eventual plea bargain. After all, hard to blame her for doing what she had to do to save her life. If someone said, "Rob that bank or I shoot you" I think that would be taken into account upon sentencing. So if she gets caught by arcswat and taken in, she has the ability to claim duress and maybe get at the very least a solid chance at jabberwokky status if not being let go. After all, she hasnt actually hurt anyone that we know of yet, so it would be fairly simple to justify.

She may also just be legitimately vexed by the situation and wanting to vent. She is a hostage after all.

[Dragonus45]

I think its less that she is considering switching sides and more she has to pass the time waiting somehow and it doesnt hurt her to confirm why she has no real choice in the matter. If she was a bit more savvy I would say she is setting up an eventual plea bargain. After all, hard to blame her for doing what she had to do to save her life. If someone said, "Rob that bank or I shoot you" I think that would be taken into account upon sentencing. So if she gets caught by arcswat and taken in, she has the ability to claim duress and maybe get at the very least a solid chance at jabberwokky status if not being let go. After all, she hasnt actually hurt anyone that we know of yet, so it would be fairly simple to justify.

There is real historical precedent for this kind of thing with Brian Wells who was supposedly forced to rob a bank with a bomb around his neck as leverage. The situation is complicated because authorities believe he was actually involved and it was some kind of multilayer alibi thing gone wrong but general consensus is that if that bomb were real he would have been mostly ok, but only because the context was that he had no reasonable means, or time, to notify authorities of the crimes. One could argue that whether she directly intends it or not informing Sydney here is giving her great cover.

[AvatarVecna]

"You know what I miss about having a flesh-and-blood body? The lovely way my titties bounced around."

r/menwritingwomen

[Keltest]

"You know what I miss about having a flesh-and-blood body? The lovely way my titties bounced around."

r/menwritingwomen

I dunno. If i was trapped exclusively in a fake body that didnt behave like my real one, i would be pretty put out too. The abnormality would be far more upsetting than the specific function i was missing, which i think is the point here.

[AvatarVecna]

I dunno. If i was trapped exclusively in a fake body that didnt behave like my real one, i would be pretty put out too. The abnormality would be far more upsetting than the specific function i was missing, which i think is the point here.

I don't disagree with that necessarily - there's almost certainly going to be some body dismorphia going on. But unlike more standard cases of BD, this is a pretty extreme "my body is completely different". I don't have an issue with "i miss masturbation", I don't think titty-jiggling would exactly be so near the top of her list of examples. You know that scene in Pirates Of The Caribbean where Barbosa is telling Elizabeth about the things he misses about being truly alive? You know how "feeling the weight of my johnson shifting in my pants when I run" wasn't on the list? Does that feel like an awkward thing to have near the top of your list? Cuz it feels pretty awkward to me.

And for some reason, I don't think the tits were mentioned because Dave did a ton of research into extreme body dismorphia cases. And while I'm not sure if Dave is intending to handle that for the next few strips, it's already starting on a worse foot than when QC touched on the same topic.

[Keltest]

I don't disagree with that necessarily - there's almost certainly going to be some body dismorphia going on. But unlike more standard cases of BD, this is a pretty extreme "my body is completely different". I don't have an issue with "i miss masturbation", I don't think titty-jiggling would exactly be so near the top of her list of examples. You know that scene in Pirates Of The Caribbean where Barbosa is telling Elizabeth about the things he misses about being truly alive? You know how "feeling the weight of my johnson shifting in my pants when I run" wasn't on the list? Does that feel like an awkward thing to have near the top of your list? Cuz it feels pretty awkward to me.

And for some reason, I don't think the tits were mentioned because Dave did a ton of research into extreme body dismorphia cases. And while I'm not sure if Dave is intending to handle that for the next few strips, it's already starting on a worse foot than when QC touched on the same topic.

I mean, you probably arent wrong, but at the same time, i feel like "my body doesnt move the way i expect it to unless i force it to" seems like a fairly serious thing that somebody would genuinely be upset about.

[Traab]

I mean, you probably arent wrong, but at the same time, i feel like "my body doesnt move the way i expect it to unless i force it to" seems like a fairly serious thing that somebody would genuinely be upset about.

And lets face it, of all the parts of your body, a womans upper quadrant probably does the most independent movement of any body part male or female. The bigger said quadrant is, the worse it gets. So you are going to notice they dont move anymore. Maybe if you have longish hair that would be a close second as it moving around is normal and now that its stone, it aint doing that no more. But yeah, Dave probably meant it to be a tone shifting joke more than anything else.

[Shining Wrath]

The maximum speed of a vehicle is not closely coupled with the acceleration. A good example is a spacecraft with a big sail to catch the solar wind. It accelerates very slowly, but the theoretical maximum speed asymptotically approaches the speed of light.

Yes, eventually the solar wind diminishes to "not very much", so your max speed is a function of stellar brightness, size of sail, and mass of spacecraft-sail system. Acceleration does matter, but that spacecraft is going to be going way faster than Mach 16 with acceleration a fraction of a g.

I think Concretia maybe likes talking to someone who isn't holding her body hostage, or trying to beat her up, or trying to flee in terror - admittedly, Sydney might flee if she could, but she's pretty calm right now.

[Kantaki]

New comic

Wow. One page, not even a name and already I want to feed him feet first into a wood chipper.
Even ignoring the creepiness of the scene.

Seriously, don't cut your minion off when they're trying to give you potentially important information.
Let them say their piece then torture them if you still deem it necessary.
Or, novel thought, don't.
Don't punish them for doing the job to their best ability/understanding.
Also, assume some basic competence unless proven otherwise.

I mean, you already messed up by abducting the lady in the first place, don't make it worse by mistreating her.

[HandofShadows]

I think a wood chipper may be to quick. And something just occurred to me, Sydney still has her glasses. You know the ones stuffed with advanced technology? How is that going to play into this? :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

I think a wood chipper may be to quick. And something just occurred to me, Sydney still has her glasses. You know the ones stuffed with advanced technology? How is that going to play into this? :smallconfused:

I have some vague recall of her being able to text with them through eye movement? Or something? Does that connect to earth phones?

[Traab]

Wood chipper is fine, you just go feet first is all.

[TeChameleon]

...

"Dr Has Issues with Women"? His first meeting with Max is going to be fun.

To watch.

For us :smallamused:

[Sean Mirrsen]

Anybody else think he looks suspiciously like Deus?

[Keltest]

Anybody else think he looks suspiciously like Deus?

Doesnt Deus have an extremely prominent scar on his face?

[The Glyphstone]

Doesnt Deus have an extremely prominent scar on his face?

Deus's scar is on the bridge of his nose/upper face, so the mask would cover it. On the other hand, his face is also shaped very differently. Much more narrow/angular than Dr Has Issues With Women.

[HandofShadows]

Defiantly not Dues. He treats his employees MUCH better.

[Dragonus45]

Yea, Deus also doesn't seem like a sex crimes kind of guy either. This guy reeks of that.

[Forum Explorer]

Anybody else think he looks suspiciously like Deus?

He's got way too many wrinkles. I think that puts him out of having a power of his own too.

[TeChameleon]

He's got way too many wrinkles. I think that puts him out of having a power of his own too.

... huh. That brings up an interesting point; we don't know how powers interact with aging, do we? I'm pretty sure they don't grant immortality or anything (at least, not by default), but all the supers we've seen have been pretty young, relatively speaking, at least as far as I can remember.

And yeah, this guy is giving a radically different vibe than Deus. Deus always felt like... well, kinda Norman Osborn with Doctor Doom's ego. He's more focused on the corporate end of things, like Osborn, but he's the sort of guy who doesn't want to conquer the world because the world should submit to him willingly, as both its rightful ruler and the one most able to rule. Petty power plays like this guy is pulling are... not beneath him, exactly, I just don't think it would even occur to Deus to do things like that.

[Traab]

... huh. That brings up an interesting point; we don't know how powers interact with aging, do we? I'm pretty sure they don't grant immortality or anything (at least, not by default), but all the supers we've seen have been pretty young, relatively speaking, at least as far as I can remember.

And yeah, this guy is giving a radically different vibe than Deus. Deus always felt like... well, kinda Norman Osborn with Doctor Doom's ego. He's more focused on the corporate end of things, like Osborn, but he's the sort of guy who doesn't want to conquer the world because the world should submit to him willingly, as both its rightful ruler and the one most able to rule. Petty power plays like this guy is pulling are... not beneath him, exactly, I just don't think it would even occur to Deus to do things like that.

Yeah, while he has absolutely no problem with blackmail and extortion, he is not the type to be this petty small minded and vindictive. He would ABSOLUTELY be the type to hold your real body hostage so you work for him if your power set was valuable enough, but he wouldnt be casually abusive like this unless he caught her actively working to undercut him or escape. And the line he makes her say? Nope.

[Narkis]

I thought it'd be the Cleansing guy (https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-186-fingers-to-maximum-steepleage/), but he looks too different even taking the art change into account. Even the eye color doesn't match.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah, while he has absolutely no problem with blackmail and extortion, he is not the type to be this petty small minded and vindictive. He would ABSOLUTELY be the type to hold your real body hostage so you work for him if your power set was valuable enough, but he wouldnt be casually abusive like this unless he caught her actively working to undercut him or escape. And the line he makes her say? Nope.

You know I don't know if Dues would even do the body hostage bit. Frankly if there was someone so valuable that he just had to have them but couldn't get them to join him willingly I think he would rather kill someone to remove them as anyone's asset then screw around with a complicated hostage situation that will inevitably bit him in the ass, and I agree that even if he did go that route he would aim for about as polite as he could manage to help cut down on the aforementioned inevitable downsides. Abusing your agent in the field is just counterproductive.

[lord_khaine]

Alright. That i think. Was genuinly smart.
A bluff build upon how weird her powers are.
And on how unpredictable super powers are.

[Traab]

Its a nice way to distract, confuse, and add some paranoia. I personally wouldnt have added the part about dabbler as that would make them hurry up, but its entirely possible everything up till then might have caused hesitation as they cant be sure whats going on. Drug her, make her vanish, hope she was bluffing. Also, its entirely possible this was her setting up a glasses based email to get the warning out. Enough nonsense phrasing so they cant tell what she is doing, but enough of a hint of issues to get attention from her fur baby. After all, if she just yelled out "Hey lover boy, im held at this location by three goons and conretia, tell dabbler/max/whoever quick before they vanish me!" They likely would have knocked her out within the first 3 seconds. This is next tier "Find a way to use the word vermilion to let us know you are under duress."

[Traab]

So todays update shows that max is having way too much fun to wonder whats been keeping sydney. The mercs also havent had a thought for her yet. Dabbler and the B team may be her only hope as they arent currently doing much. Maybe Frix will get the email sydney (possibly) sent out and contact his captain.

[lord_khaine]

Have to grant it to HW. Today's idea was a brilliant case of acting.
I laughted so hard at the clown comment. And of Max looking confused at her own fist :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Agreed, I make fun of her because she is very off balance and out of her league, but she is actually a fairly smart fighter. And balancing powers you havent had all your life cant be easy.

[HandofShadows]

HW may be a fairly smart fighter, but Max is a VERY smart fighter as seen in the last panel. :smallcool::smallamused:

[Traab]

Now, i wonder if her revealing she has concretias powers will trigger anything? I dont know if she was actually caught after the super brawl, considering her real body wasnt there. It may be that only math anvil sydney and peggy would even recognize her due to how fast she was beaten and then just kinda vanished.

[Sean Mirrsen]

HW may be a fairly smart fighter, but Max is a VERY smart fighter as seen in the last panel. :smallcool::smallamused:

She's a smart, fast, and most importantly experienced fighter. Plus exposure to Sydney made her even more resistant to confusion-based sneak attacks. :P

[Shining Wrath]

This is an interesting legal question - if HW has Concertia's powers, that means that Concretia is one of her employers. But it's been clearly established that Concretia is an unwilling servant of Jerkface Maximus, and I doubt she's part of the LLC. If it can be proven that Concretia is acting under duress, does that legally mean that Concretia is not an employer of HW, and therefore HW loses her powers?

That's the sort of trick Sydney might try, if she were here. :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

This is an interesting legal question - if HW has Concertia's powers, that means that Concretia is one of her employers. But it's been clearly established that Concretia is an unwilling servant of Jerkface Maximus, and I doubt she's part of the LLC. If it can be proven that Concretia is acting under duress, does that legally mean that Concretia is not an employer of HW, and therefore HW loses her powers?

That's the sort of trick Sydney might try, if she were here. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, that would imply the way her powers work is according to a specific nations contract law. For all we know its a written version of varia. If she writes her name down, willingly or not, her powers are a part of the llc. Obviously concretia has to personally sign or else this power would be utterly broken as hench wench death notes her way to owning all the powers of every super on earth by writing their full names down herself. *EDIT* Or, the alternate way is, concretias "boss" can sign for everyone that works for him. So if deus signed, every super under his employ would get added to hench wenches arsenal.

[lord_khaine]

HW may be a fairly smart fighter, but Max is a VERY smart fighter as seen in the last panel.

Smart :smallconfused:
No that does not show anything about being smart.
Just that Max is faster and stronger than HW. But we already knew that.

[Kantaki]

Smart :smallconfused:
No that does not show anything about being smart.
Just that Max is faster and stronger than HW. But we already knew that.

Moving out of the way when someone's punching you is pretty smart though.

On the other hand, standing where a dodged attack results in a friendly fire incident isn't
Doubly so if you are hitting yourself.:smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

I mean, that would imply the way her powers work is according to a specific nations contract law. For all we know its a written version of varia. If she writes her name down, willingly or not, her powers are a part of the llc. Obviously concretia has to personally sign or else this power would be utterly broken as hench wench death notes her way to owning all the powers of every super on earth by writing their full names down herself. *EDIT* Or, the alternate way is, concretias "boss" can sign for everyone that works for him. So if deus signed, every super under his employ would get added to hench wenches arsenal.

HW did say that she got the supers hiring her to form an LLC so that she got all their powers, which I think means the "boss" idea is out. He could be the CEO of the LLC, mind you, but the other supers have to join. I imagine they asked Concretia to join while someone's thumb hovered over the "Bad Girl" button.

You are right, though, that it may not be a matter of law, but of consent, however dubious said consent may be.

If it's a matter of law, it would be hilarious indeed if HW crossed a national boundary and lost powers because the contract was not enforceable there.

[TeChameleon]

If it's a matter of law, it would be hilarious indeed if HW crossed a national boundary and lost powers because the contract was not enforceable there.

...

"Welcome to Canada, idiot."

Sorry, it seemed necessary.

Yeah, Concretia-wench raises all kinds of questions, not all of them regarding contract law. Can Concretia animate both bodies simultaneously, or is that some kind of power interaction that Henchwench got by some other villain having super-coordination powers or something?

As an aside, is it just me, or do the "Max is confused" panels give her a very weird face? The wide eyes just don't look quite right to me, like her entire face is distorted.

[lord_khaine]

Moving out of the way when someone's punching you is pretty smart though.

Your bar for smart is exceptionally low if thats your view of not standing still when someone tries to punch you :smalltongue:


You are right, though, that it may not be a matter of law, but of consent, however dubious said consent may be.

If it's a matter of law, it would be hilarious indeed if HW crossed a national boundary and lost powers because the contract was not enforceable there.

I repeat my point that HW's power is exceptionally dumb. And 4th wall breaking.


As an aside, is it just me, or do the "Max is confused" panels give her a very weird face? The wide eyes just don't look quite right to me, like her entire face is distorted.

I just think she looks confused.

[Shining Wrath]

Your bar for smart is exceptionally low if thats your view of not standing still when someone tries to punch you :smalltongue:



I repeat my point that HW's power is exceptionally dumb. And 4th wall breaking.



I just think she looks confused.

I would be fine with "can reproduce one person's powers with their consent". The LLC bit is stupid.

[Kantaki]

Your bar for smart is exceptionally low if thats your view of not standing still when someone tries to punch you :smalltongue:

And yet I often feel the bar is still too high...:smallsigh:

[InvisibleBison]

I repeat my point that HW's power is exceptionally dumb. And 4th wall breaking.

How does Hench Wench's power break the fourth wall? Breaking the fourth wall means that the characters are aware that they're in a work of fiction. I don't see how that's going on here. Am I missing something, or are you using a different definition of breaking the fourth wall?

[lord_khaine]

I would be fine with "can reproduce one person's powers with their consent". The LLC bit is stupid.

Yeah. That would have been a perfectly acceptable power. And still in tune with her concept.


How does Hench Wench's power break the fourth wall? Breaking the fourth wall means that the characters are aware that they're in a work of fiction. I don't see how that's going on here. Am I missing something, or are you using a different definition of breaking the fourth wall?

You can look at a wall from 2 different sides.
In this case the power is sufficiently dumb that it cracks the suspension of disbelief, making the world of the comic seem less like a consistent world with super powers, and more like a messy story.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah. That would have been a perfectly acceptable power. And still in tune with her concept.


Seems a bit boring really. Cheating the system to get multiple powers is way more interesting.



You can look at a wall from 2 different sides.
In this case the power is sufficiently dumb that it cracks the suspension of disbelief, making the world of the comic seem less like a consistent world with super powers, and more like a messy story.
According to you I guess.

[Shining Wrath]

Seems a bit boring really. Cheating the system to get multiple powers is way more interesting.


According to you I guess.

It's weird that a Super Power knows about contracts. That's more magic than Super. It'd be the sort of thing I'd expect demons to cook up than a Super.

[Kantaki]

It's weird that a Super Power knows about contracts. That's more magic than Super. It'd be the sort of thing I'd expect demons to cook up than a Super.

I mean we know basically next to nothing about the how and why of superpowers. Something, something mankind's aggregate subconsciousness, bla bla partially rooted in bearer's understanding, insert paragraph about nonhuman ancestors, next step in human evolution, interdimensional parasite space whales...
No wait, the last one is silly.:smalltongue:

And if Maxima's powers are connected to funky rock juice HW's might similarly connected to the gentlepeople downstairs.

[lord_khaine]

According to you I guess.

Ahem.. yes.. because.. quoting myself


I repeat my point that HW's power is exceptionally dumb. And 4th wall breaking.

Here the key word is MY point. That means its ME thats saying it.
That in turn strongly implies its My oppinion. And not a universal truth.
THAT IS ACCORDING TO ME. In case it wasnt clear enough.


And if Maxima's powers are connected to funky rock juice HW's might similarly connected to the gentlepeople downstairs.

Maxima has a perfectly valid explanation in alien symbiont encountered in fluid form. Her power is quite logical as super powers go.
Sadly though Dabbler we know the "gentlepeople" isnt downstairs. They are in space. So they are a bad power source.

Suspension of disbelief is already regularly shaken by a kitchen sink world setting (not that Marvel/DC is better there).
A super power that knows about contracts, enough to value fine print over intention, strains it past the breaking point.

[Dragonus45]

Maxima has a perfectly valid explanation in alien symbiont encountered in fluid form. Her power is quite logical as super powers go.
Sadly though Dabbler we know the "gentlepeople" isnt downstairs. They are in space. So they are a bad power source.

Yea the geode juice space alien binding really does make sooo much more sense then power copying working on everyone you work for instead of just your direct manager or something. My suspension of disbelief is just gone. How could Dave do this to us!

[Sean Mirrsen]

interdimensional parasite space whales...

I understood that reference! :P

But, really, the powers in this universe are extremely varied. And there's no shortage of metapowers of different scales and operating principles (Death Toll, Jabberwocky, Varia). So who knows how exactly HW's powers work, it could be almost anything.

[Kantaki]

Sadly though Dabbler we know the "gentlepeople" isnt downstairs. They are in space. So they are a bad power source.

Are they?:smallconfused:
I'm genuinely asking, because my understanding was that, while Dabbler is part space alien*, demons are from elsewhere in origin.
Extradimensional instead of extraterrestrial.
Or something.

*Wasn't she a succubus/alien/shapeshifter mix?

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, Dabbler is a mix of demon and an alien. She identifies as succubus though. There are large groups of extradimensional/demons around but they tend to to stay out of sight and busy with their own wars.

[Traab]

I understood that reference! :P

But, really, the powers in this universe are extremely varied. And there's no shortage of metapowers of different scales and operating principles (Death Toll, Jabberwocky, Varia). So who knows how exactly HW's powers work, it could be almost anything.

Death toll is an interesting case as his power is to auto counter any power he is faced with. Its not even like with varia needing to make contact to unlock a power, he doesnt take a hit then counter it, he just flat out counters it. So yeah, we have seen a number of unusual powers that when you stop and think about them, they make no logical sense. Seems odd that this is the end of the suspension of disbelief. Though I do admit its a bit of a silly setup. A more rational one would be, she is like a psychic mystique in that she can form a link with a number of willing people and that lets her borrow their powers as her body adapts to utilize them. Make it have to be willing to form the link and that gives her a lot of power but also a weakness that blocks her from getting ALL the power.

[AvatarVecna]

This isn't really a "i cant believe the author screwed up so badoy" complaint as much as a minor statement of preference, but I think I'd prefer if the "oh no you punched my soul out of my body" comic came before all the sydney/concretia stuff. Just a little touch of foreshadowing would be mmmmm lovely.

[Radar]

New page
I think we just got a confirmation that Sydney got the word out. Those guys will be very sorry that Cora is the first responder.

[Shining Wrath]

New page
I think we just got a confirmation that Sydney got the word out. Those guys will be very sorry that Cora is the first responder.

The Halo Industrial Complex is on the job!

[JeenLeen]

Are they?:smallconfused:
I'm genuinely asking, because my understanding was that, while Dabbler is part space alien*, demons are from elsewhere in origin.
Extradimensional instead of extraterrestrial.
Or something.

*Wasn't she a succubus/alien/shapeshifter mix?

I thought Dabbler (or the author in comments) said that demons were just aliens from a particular planet. Is that inaccurate?

I admit the world-building seems a bit flimsy (as kinda follows some superhero comics, so excusable perhaps) in whether or not demons are extra-dimensional or just aliens and, likewise, how they differ from other aliens... but wasn't that something like some aliens made a deal with "other worldly beings" and the residue from that is what made them demons. And other aliens did with the other side and are angels? I think I recall a comic going into those details, probably when Sidney asked Dabbler how demons exist.

[Traab]

I thought Dabbler (or the author in comments) said that demons were just aliens from a particular planet. Is that inaccurate?

I admit the world-building seems a bit flimsy (as kinda follows some superhero comics, so excusable perhaps) in whether or not demons are extra-dimensional or just aliens and, likewise, how they differ from other aliens... but wasn't that something like some aliens made a deal with "other worldly beings" and the residue from that is what made them demons. And other aliens did with the other side and are angels? I think I recall a comic going into those details, probably when Sidney asked Dabbler how demons exist.

Dabbler showed us that the world works a lot like D&D with the various planes all around us, but space travel is also a thing. So perhaps extra-planar is a better term for them. Aliens are on our plane, demons, angels, cthulu style entities, the astral plane, all their own thing. EDIT Here we go. (https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-813-metaphysics-101/) It seems it was less a discussion of planes and more how other being access magic.

[TeChameleon]

Y'know, you'd think that Cora of all people would get that being able to just cut loose once in a while is fun for Max. And it's at least remotely possible that Max knows that all the aliens haven't absconded, and is putting on a show as a deterrent. But I suspect mostly Max is having a good time.

... actually, thinking about it, Max seems to have realized that Henchwench is sticking to her punchy-type powers while Max is in close, so this might also be a way of limiting collateral.

[Shining Wrath]

I feel it is a good thing Alari Nanny Disks are not available on earth. A really, really good thing.

I don't know why Cora feels she has to sleep with what's-his-name, but evidently there's a price to be paid for leaving him to guard the captives.

And now Cora is going to show up, possibly with Dabbler, and save Halo. I think Sydney's advice was sound; the baddies should start running because the can of whoop-ass that is about to be opened is restaurant sized.

[Keltest]

I feel it is a good thing Alari Nanny Disks are not available on earth. A really, really good thing.

I don't know why Cora feels she has to sleep with what's-his-name, but evidently there's a price to be paid for leaving him to guard the captives.

And now Cora is going to show up, possibly with Dabbler, and save Halo. I think Sydney's advice was sound; the baddies should start running because the can of whoop-ass that is about to be opened is restaurant sized.

The commentary in the bottom seems to suggest that she doesnt feel obligated to (and may not intend to), but that she was just saying so to distract him from actually wondering where she was about to go.

[Traab]

It may be also that she kinda wants to. Im pretty sure both she and dabbler have spent the night at least once, and they enjoy the hulked out form he has. They hate his personality. But hey, every now and then its nice to go with a chippendales dancer even if he is as bright as a coal mine at midnight. Or in this case a worlds strongest man contestant whose personality annoys you.

[Max_Killjoy]

Comic updates twice a week.

Another update 2/3 wasted on a side joke.

[Dragonus45]

It may be also that she kinda wants to. Im pretty sure both she and dabbler have spent the night at least once, and they enjoy the hulked out form he has. They hate his personality. But hey, every now and then its nice to go with a chippendales dancer even if he is as bright as a coal mine at midnight. Or in this case a worlds strongest man contestant whose personality annoys you.

Considering she hangs around with Dabbler the personality probably isn't even that much of a turnoff for her. Just something she prefers to be around in moderation.

[Traab]

Considering she hangs around with Dabbler the personality probably isn't even that much of a turnoff for her. Just something she prefers to be around in moderation.

No, it very much so is a turnoff for both of them. Its just that apparently they REALLY like his beast mode form.

[Shining Wrath]

Heh. Shades of Hitchhiker's Guide when they gave the guy an overdose of truth serum and he started telling the WHOLE truth.

[HandofShadows]

Why do I get the impression that Sydney is doing this deliberately? If she is, she weaponized her ADHD. :smallcool::smalleek: And I keep forgetting that the author suffers from it.

[Radar]

Heh. Shades of Hitchhiker's Guide when they gave the guy an overdose of truth serum and he started telling the WHOLE truth.
There is also Chunk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5UG7ISJfP0) from Goonies. Also a very nice take on it in an unfortunately obscure story by Stanisław Lem where a pirate stealing knowledge was tricked to accept a gift that was, without ever stoping, writing down all the truth in the universe... without any particular order or regard for relevance.

As it is, Sydney has barely any filter without the addition of truth serum, so they got what they deserve here.

[Traab]

Why do I get the impression that Sydney is doing this deliberately? If she is, she weaponized her ADHD. :smallcool::smalleek: And I keep forgetting that the author suffers from it.

Ive seen this done in stories before, primarily fanfics. Wonder woman has the mc in her lasso and so he just decides to endlessly ramble to try and buy time for an escape attempt, or he starts using the truth as a weapon to hurt the league with because being a self insert comic nerd, he has a LOT of information on very private, personal, and painful information on the league as he basically lets them know that he does have this knowledge and if they continue to force him to speak the truth, he will make them bleed with it. Other options being to answer in ways that are true but not what they want to know.

"Why are you here?!"
"Because you have me tied up and wont let me leave."

That sort of thing. Its fun to see the different ways writers come up with to deal with being forced to tell the truth. As for sydney, its honestly hard to tell if this is on purpose or if its just a strange drug interaction with her adhd causing this outpouring of everything. After all, she does tend to go stream of consciousness from time to time, so by removing what few controls she has over her talking, this is the reasonable result. "Tell us about dabbler" is all that was needed to trigger it.

[Shining Wrath]

We don't know what they asked, and we don't need to know for it to be funny - but my best guess is "Who is Dabbler?" or something like that. But instead of Dabbler, they are going to get Cora. Who, come to think of it, is probably more willing to kill them than Dabbler is. They really should be running.

[The Glyphstone]

My first thought was that Sydney has gone full Vorkosigan, as borne out by many of the commenters on the comic page. I guess that's a more deeply rooted bit of science fiction true serum than HGttG in my head.

[JeenLeen]

I can see it as a mix of her trying to "weaponize" her ADHD, and maybe the serum interacting with her meds. If I recall correctly, most of those medicines help by increasing the ability to focus. So it might be that she's in-depth drilling down into a focused trail of info.

More likely, it's just the latter or that this is a funny scene, but that's a psuedo-medical reason that occurred to me, so I felt like sharing.

[HandofShadows]

The more I think about drug interaction the more worried I get. Some drug interactions can be VERY nasty. :smalleek::smallfrown:

[sihnfahl]

I can see it as a mix of her trying to "weaponize" her ADHD, and maybe the serum interacting with her meds. If I recall correctly, most of those medicines help by increasing the ability to focus. So it might be that she's in-depth drilling down into a focused trail of info.
Well, yes. Dextroamphetamine-Amphetamine (https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-79-a-history-of-violence/) (Adderall) is a stimulant, after all.

So you take someone who's already on a stimulant, then you stimulate them further into a stream of consciousness drug?

[Keltest]

The more I think about drug interaction the more worried I get. Some drug interactions can be VERY nasty. :smalleek::smallfrown:

I like the idea that its actually a placebo, and Sydney just really does have this kind of train of thought.

[sihnfahl]

I like the idea that its actually a placebo, and Sydney just really does have this kind of train of thought.
Aside from the lower left panel where she's starting to panic because she can't catch her breath due to the constant talking...

[Kantaki]

...:smalleek:
I think by the time Cora shows up those villains will surrender voluntarily.
And spill all the beans for a nice quiet cell with no weirdos with verbal diarrhoea.
"Mistakes were made."The baddies.:smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

"Truth serums" are sedatives - they work by squashing your inhibitions to such a point where you just blurt out the first thing to come into your head.

So, Sydney is basically on stimulants and sedatives at the same time. That is, uh. Not good.

[Forum Explorer]

"Truth serums" are sedatives - they work by squashing your inhibitions to such a point where you just blurt out the first thing to come into your head.

So, Sydney is basically on stimulants and sedatives at the same time. That is, uh. Not good.

I kinda hope we get a after action report where Sydney has to mime things out because her throat is sore.

[Traab]

I kinda hope we get a after action report where Sydney has to mime things out because her throat is sore.

She has her lighthook for that. Its already proven useful at delivering messages lol.

[sihnfahl]

"Truth serums" are sedatives.
More to the point, most are benzodiazepines.

There's a reason why they really don't like mixing, say, Adderall and Xanax...

[TeChameleon]

Am I the only one that's amused that even in the middle of all this, Sydney managed to rip on her captors again?

[lord_khaine]

Well. As a side note we were given the answer to the whole deal with the spell getting stuck on Jabberwork.

And a little neat detail is how Sydney's eyes changes.

[Forum Explorer]

Am I the only one that's amused that even in the middle of all this, Sydney managed to rip on her captors again?

My first thought was 'if you pass out, you should still be breathing. Just like if you pass out from holding your breath, you autonomic system takes over and you don't require CPR.'

[lord_khaine]

My first thought was 'if you pass out, you should still be breathing. Just like if you pass out from holding your breath, you autonomic system takes over and you don't require CPR.'

Thats a very smart point.
And ill certainly give Sydney a pass for not being able to think about that.

[Shining Wrath]

Thats a very smart point.
And ill certainly give Sydney a pass for not being able to think about that.

Becoming hypoxic is frightening even if you know you'll get better. The brain doesn't like the feeling of insufficient O2. I've taken flatlanders up to the top of Mt. Evans (14k feet) or even Trail Ridge Road in Rocky Mountain National Park (almost 12k feet) and they don't like exerting themselves at all. It's a weird feeling.

[lord_khaine]

So. While the idea of doing a highlander on Sydney is of course initially rather enticing.
Then it should really have triggered what a death sentence it is.
As those orbs would more or less become a glowing arrow saying "i killed an archon member in cold blood"

Of course. Could also see only the lead moron were dumb enough to think it was worth it.
His assistant had the right idea.

[Traab]

So. While the idea of doing a highlander on Sydney is of course initially rather enticing.
Then it should really have triggered what a death sentence it is.
As those orbs would more or less become a glowing arrow saying "i killed an archon member in cold blood"

Of course. Could also see only the lead moron were dumb enough to think it was worth it.
His assistant had the right idea.

On the other hand, those orbs are really powerful. If they had the slightest clue what they are really capable of, it would probably be worth the risk of enraging archon. Those orbs make you an intergalactic space ship with tech more advanced than anything actual space faring for centuries races are capable of, and thats just with like 10% of the options unlocked. Keep in mind we are just finishing up a like, three way brawl for the chance to physically take maxima and/or any tech they can nab. There are PLENTY of groups that would take on the risk of retribution if it got them the orbs.

[Radar]

So. While the idea of doing a highlander on Sydney is of course initially rather enticing.
Then it should really have triggered what a death sentence it is.
As those orbs would more or less become a glowing arrow saying "i killed an archon member in cold blood"

Of course. Could also see only the lead moron were dumb enough to think it was worth it.
His assistant had the right idea.
I begin to wonder, how this guy became the boss of his group. I would guess he was the one with the money to finance the criminal endeavor. I could also envision him being unknowingly manipulated into a role of a handy scapegoat by someone else pulling the strings in secret.

[Shining Wrath]

The guy with the gun may be a "sergeant" - he leads this particular deployed squad, but he's not the top of the food chain. I still think someone with money and brains is behind this.
And yes, Halo was weaponizing ADHD and just trying to keep talking until the rescue team arrived. Definitely smarter than the average superhero, is our Sydney.
"Retired" is such a weird euphemism for "murdered".
Sydney's face in the next-to-last panel is her"you have made your last mistake a-hole" face.
Per text, next page (Thursday) we get to see an angry Cora / Dabbler do very angry things to bad guys. There. Will. Be. Blood.

[Forum Explorer]

On the other hand, those orbs are really powerful. If they had the slightest clue what they are really capable of, it would probably be worth the risk of enraging archon. Those orbs make you an intergalactic space ship with tech more advanced than anything actual space faring for centuries races are capable of, and thats just with like 10% of the options unlocked. Keep in mind we are just finishing up a like, three way brawl for the chance to physically take maxima and/or any tech they can nab. There are PLENTY of groups that would take on the risk of retribution if it got them the orbs.

I mean, kinda. It is a lot of power, but they can't be put down. So you'd effectively be giving up any ability to have a normal life at the same time. It might be useful to try and get a minion with the orbs, but then the minion has that problem, and now the minion is a lot stronger than you.

It is certainly worth it for an alien to do so, as they can just leave the planet after taking the orbs.

[Traab]

I mean, kinda. It is a lot of power, but they can't be put down. So you'd effectively be giving up any ability to have a normal life at the same time. It might be useful to try and get a minion with the orbs, but then the minion has that problem, and now the minion is a lot stronger than you.

It is certainly worth it for an alien to do so, as they can just leave the planet after taking the orbs.

You can literally put them in an oversized purse. She carted them around in a poster tube when she wanted to keep them hidden. Be known for wearing a backpack and you can go anywhere without attracting notice and have the orbs right there if you need them. They cant be detected by any means we have seen so far, so unless you are an idiot running around with them in full halo mode over your head you are nice and incognito. *EDIT* As for this comic, I think sydney just earned some more respect points with the arcswat crew. Taking a beating, even a mild one, while defenseless and keeping your head is really impressive. Especially once death became a serious possibility. She has toughened up a bit since the sciona troll blood incident. Assuming she doesnt have a breakdown once the adrenaline crash happens.

[Radar]

She has toughened up a bit since the sciona troll blood incident. Assuming she doesnt have a breakdown once the adrenaline crash happens.
Being able to stave off the imminent breakdown long enough to properly handle a life-or-death situation is still a testament to mental toughness IMO. Once you are safe again it might actually be a healthy thing to let it all out one way or the other.

I guess it is similar to how for example long distance runners or skiers often happen to pretty much collapse after crossing the finish line. They push through to the very end and after that they let the exhaustion set in.

[Shining Wrath]

I think Sydney told us how she got her head together - there's nothing quite like being abandoned on a dead planet filled with killer robots to toughen you up. Compared to that level of despair and danger, one bully with a pistol and delusions of toughness is not so bad, especially when you know very lethal help is on the way.

[lord_khaine]

It is certainly worth it for an alien to do so, as they can just leave the planet after taking the orbs.

Yeah the situation is completely different for someone who can flee off planet.


You can literally put them in an oversized purse. She carted them around in a poster tube when she wanted to keep them hidden. Be known for wearing a backpack and you can go anywhere without attracting notice and have the orbs right there if you need them. They cant be detected by any means we have seen so far, so unless you are an idiot running around with them in full halo mode over your head you are nice and incognito.

Not that incognito. And you need to keep the orbs concealed for the rest of your life. You cant allow anyone from the public to ever get a glimpse of them.
The orbs are unique enough that they should be known all over the world. And tell whoever spots them, that this person killed a super heroine to steal her tools.
So just about any use of them not conducted in a empty desert will send up a signal beacon to the Goddess of Ash.
Who honestly might be vendictive enough to decide you "resisted" arrest.


Being able to stave off the imminent breakdown long enough to properly handle a life-or-death situation is still a testament to mental toughness IMO. Once you are safe again it might actually be a healthy thing to let it all out one way or the other.
It is quite impressive how well she is stalling for time.

[Radar]

Not that incognito. And you need to keep the orbs concealed for the rest of your life. You cant allow anyone from the public to ever get a glimpse of them.
The orbs are unique enough that they should be known all over the world. And tell whoever spots them, that this person killed a super heroine to steal her tools.
So just about any use of them not conducted in a empty desert will send up a signal beacon to the Goddess of Ash.
Who honestly might be vendictive enough to decide you "resisted" arrest.
It's similar to how stupid it would be to steal for example Mona Lisa. Sure, you now have an invaluable work of art, but what would you do with it? Would there be anyone willing to pay for it and risk immediate prosecution the moment the painting is seen by anyone?

[Shining Wrath]

It's similar to how stupid it would be to steal for example Mona Lisa. Sure, you now have an invaluable work of art, but what would you do with it? Would there be anyone willing to pay for it and risk immediate prosecution the moment the painting is seen by anyone?

There is, unfortunately, a black market for high end art. Rich jerks put it in their home where it is only seen by other rich jerks who are fine with it being a stolen treasure.

Sydney's orbs might appeal to certain rich jerks. You don't use them, you just have them in a vault and take delight in knowing that you have high-end alien technology in your vault, and you can go look at them when it pleases you. Similar to a priceless work of art, your pleasure is derived in part from keeping something special hidden away from lesser beings. If they deserved to see it, they'd be rich. Deus just might be that far down the path of rich jerkiness.

As Lord K. pointed out, the bigger problem is that Sydney has friends, and aside from the value of the orbs, her friends will want to avenge her death. I can think of few things scarier than the thought of Maxima and Dabbler standing side by side looking at Sydney's corpse and vowing terrible vengeance no matter how long it takes.

How long will Dabbler live, anyway? Do alien / succubus hybrids even age? She might find you 50 years from now.

[Traab]

Yeah the situation is completely different for someone who can flee off planet.



Not that incognito. And you need to keep the orbs concealed for the rest of your life. You cant allow anyone from the public to ever get a glimpse of them.
The orbs are unique enough that they should be known all over the world. And tell whoever spots them, that this person killed a super heroine to steal her tools.
So just about any use of them not conducted in a empty desert will send up a signal beacon to the Goddess of Ash.
Who honestly might be vendictive enough to decide you "resisted" arrest.


It is quite impressive how well she is stalling for time.

Yeah and if said person actually worked at mastering using the orbs they might very well be able to stand against the goddess of ash on equal terms. Sydney is already capable of ludicrous speeds in atmosphere and interstellar travel. Her shield tanks literal block busting blasts before showing signs of damage and then regenerates in a couple seconds. She can teleport, hurl 15 ton weights, cut through tanks like butter, etc etc etc. And these are just the level of abilities we know about right now with dozens of upgrades to go for all of them. Now, imagine someone like say, vehemence, who now has these orbs. Finished shuddering in terror yet? These orbs raise a plain jane out of shape young woman into the top tier of arcswat automatically. Just think what a driven super villain who already has their own effective powers might do with them? Yes, these orbs are ABSOLUTELY worth murdering sydney over for a determined bad guy. As for letting people see them, put them back in the bag, put on a hat and fake mustache, and boom, not visible anymore. Yes im exaggerating a bit, but come on, you think the big bads dont already take care in where they go and when they are seen? This would be no different. How many people here would recognize the fbis ten most wanted on sight? Yeah, nobody. Unless the orbs are out and active, nobody is going to tell that Cri M Nal is the one walking through downtown so long as he takes even the minimum in precautions.

[Max_Killjoy]

There is, unfortunately, a black market for high end art. Rich jerks put it in their home where it is only seen by other rich jerks who are fine with it being a stolen treasure.

Sydney's orbs might appeal to certain rich jerks. You don't use them, you just have them in a vault and take delight in knowing that you have high-end alien technology in your vault, and you can go look at them when it pleases you. Similar to a priceless work of art, your pleasure is derived in part from keeping something special hidden away from lesser beings. If they deserved to see it, they'd be rich. Deus just might be that far down the path of rich jerkiness.

As Lord K. pointed out, the bigger problem is that Sydney has friends, and aside from the value of the orbs, her friends will want to avenge her death. I can think of few things scarier than the thought of Maxima and Dabbler standing side by side looking at Sydney's corpse and vowing terrible vengeance no matter how long it takes.

How long will Dabbler live, anyway? Do alien / succubus hybrids even age? She might find you 50 years from now.

Not sure the owner of the orbs can keep them in a vault, they might auto-attach like they did to Sydney.

[HandofShadows]

Not sure the owner of the orbs can keep them in a vault, they might auto-attach like they did to Sydney.

I suspect that the Orbs attached themselves to Sydney for a reason (just as the stuff that gave Max her powers did.)

As for Dabbler's age, she is something like 150 years old already IIRC.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yeah and if said person actually worked at mastering using the orbs they might very well be able to stand against the goddess of ash on equal terms. Sydney is already capable of ludicrous speeds in atmosphere and interstellar travel. Her shield tanks literal block busting blasts before showing signs of damage and then regenerates in a couple seconds. She can teleport, hurl 15 ton weights, cut through tanks like butter, etc etc etc. And these are just the level of abilities we know about right now with dozens of upgrades to go for all of them. Now, imagine someone like say, vehemence, who now has these orbs. Finished shuddering in terror yet? These orbs raise a plain jane out of shape young woman into the top tier of arcswat automatically. Just think what a driven super villain who already has their own effective powers might do with them? Yes, these orbs are ABSOLUTELY worth murdering sydney over for a determined bad guy. As for letting people see them, put them back in the bag, put on a hat and fake mustache, and boom, not visible anymore. Yes im exaggerating a bit, but come on, you think the big bads dont already take care in where they go and when they are seen? This would be no different. How many people here would recognize the fbis ten most wanted on sight? Yeah, nobody. Unless the orbs are out and active, nobody is going to tell that Cri M Nal is the one walking through downtown so long as he takes even the minimum in precautions.

Also, as Cora said, if anyone in the galaxy at large even suspects that the orbs are Nth tech, it could cause massive intragalactic war. Just them being able to casually toss up Aetherium Causeways is already something that could cause people familiar with the subject to start thinking about it.