Artificers can now get Int-based Eldritch Blast or Shillelagh

[Silpharon]

Tasha's includes a new magic item called the All-Purpose Tool that allows (among other things) an Artificer to once-per-day learn a cantrip that lasts for 8 hours. This can be a cantrip from any spell list, and it counts as an Artificer cantrip for you. There are +1/+2/+3 versions of the item for spell attack modifier/spell save DC bonuses, starting at "uncommon" level.

So, the first two things that come to mind:

Shillelagh: Int-based instead of wisdom provides some new options. How about multiclassed with Bladesinger? Or go Artillerist 5 and make your Shillelagh staff an Arcane Firearm too!

Eldritch Blast: I hear the Warlocks crying. The best damage dealing cantrip in the game can now be Int-based. Again, Artillerist seems a nice match. Or just get small dip into Artificer and go Wizard the rest of the way with the best cantrip. Mmm good.

What are your thoughts? Are there other cantrips that this opens up?

[OvisCaedo]

Eldritch blast is nice for the damage type and more consistent with its average damage thanks to being multiple attacks, but I don't think it's TOO far ahead of the rest without getting ability mod to damage, which artificer still wouldn't have.

[Dork_Forge]

Eldritch blast is nice for the damage type and more consistent with its average damage thanks to being multiple attacks, but I don't think it's TOO far ahead of the rest without getting ability mod to damage, which artificer still wouldn't have.

Yeah without the invocations it's more of a sidegrade from Firebolt, you can get a single d8 from Arcane Firearm, but that's the best you're doing for additional damage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It's nice, not amazing.

[Silpharon]

Eldritch blast is nice for the damage type and more consistent with its average damage thanks to being multiple attacks, but I don't think it's TOO far ahead of the rest without getting ability mod to damage, which artificer still wouldn't have.

True, though you could get the new Shadow Touched feat, and pick up Hex (or just dip Warlock). Now each blast does 1d6 more damage. That's 14 more damage per cast on average. Added to the 22 average damage of a maxed blast, and the 1d8 (4.5 average) of Arcane Firearm, now you're at 40.5 damage from a cantrip and a continuous 1st level spell. Not necessarily better than what you can get out of Extra Attack, but not bad... :)

[MaxWilson]

Tasha's includes a new magic item called the All-Purpose Tool that allows (among other things) an Artificer to once-per-day learn a cantrip that lasts for 8 hours. This can be a cantrip from any spell list, and it counts as an Artificer cantrip for you. There are +1/+2/+3 versions of the item for spell attack modifier/spell save DC bonuses, starting at "uncommon" level.

So, the first two things that come to mind:

Shillelagh: Int-based instead of wisdom provides some new options. How about multiclassed with Bladesinger? Or go Artillerist 5 and make your Shillelagh staff an Arcane Firearm too!

Eldritch Blast: I hear the Warlocks crying. The best damage dealing cantrip in the game can now be Int-based. Again, Artillerist seems a nice match. Or just get small dip into Artificer and go Wizard the rest of the way with the best cantrip. Mmm good.

What are your thoughts? Are there other cantrips that this opens up?

Eldritch Blast still needs invocations to become worthwhile, but Hexblade/Artificer is already a pretty decent multiclass for supplying plenty of spell slots for flamethrower turrets/protector cannons/Steel Defenders/etc. as well as a nova capability (Hexblade's Curse + Wand of Magic Missile, which you can start cranking out en masse once you hit 10th level) and some control (Repelling Blast) if you want it.

What the All-Purpose Tool potentially contributes is to make that combination less MAD. Instead of having to choose between maxing your Charisma for Eldritch Blast and maxing Int for your Artificer spell DCs/number of spells prepared, you can aim for Int 20ish/Cha 13 and use the All-Purpose Tool to learn Eldritch Blast as an Artificer spell for 8 hours a day (the rest the of the time it's a warlock spell for you). Plus it apparently boosts your to-hit with all of your cantrips.

Definitely an interesting little item if you can find one or make one.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I think an Alchemist would be better served selecting Toll the Dead, or GFB.
Alchemical Savant has no synergy with force damage.

Does the item boost the DC for all Artificer spells or just the Cantrip that is selected?

[Toadkiller]

If you get a magic item and spend a feat to support it then it’s fair that you get something for it. It’s a fairly boring something, just more damage. But it is a reasonable amount of damage.

[Makorel]

I think an Alchemist would be better served selecting Toll the Dead, or GFB.
Alchemical Savant has no synergy with force damage.

Does the item boost the DC for all Artificer spells or just the Cantrip that is selected?

Can you cast GFB from Alchemists' Tools? It requires a separate weapon (now worth 1 sp) but you can get the damage rider if you've got alchemist tools in hand right?

[ff7hero]

Oh man, my Thief Rogue needs to get his hands on a set of these! He already has Guidance from Wood Elf Magic, but being able to declare at some point in the day that he knows Prestidigitation, Druidcraft, Thaumaturgy, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Mending, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion... There are so many utility cantrips!

Is there a time cost to learn the cantrip?

[kazaryu]

What the All-Purpose Tool potentially contributes is to make that combination less MAD. Instead of having to choose between maxing your Charisma for Eldritch Blast and maxing Int for your Artificer spell DCs/number of spells prepared, you can aim for Int 20ish/Cha 13 and use the All-Purpose Tool to learn Eldritch Blast as an Artificer spell for 8 hours a day (the rest the of the time it's a warlock spell for you). Plus it apparently boosts your to-hit with all of your cantrips.

Definitely an interesting little item if you can find one or make one.

i mean, it reduces the MAD *some* but the all purpose tool is not going to change how agonizing blast functions. so you still only get the cha to damage (RaW anyway, obviously some DM's may allow it), but at least your SAD as far as accuracy goes? so probably better to pick up other things that modify EB, rather than AB if you wanna go SAD. not sure the +1 damage is worth it if you're not going whole hog into warlock.

[trctelles]

I'm pretty sure there is a new feat that allows you to learn invocations... You'll have to pay the feat tax, but I think you can make it work fairly easy.

[KorvinStarmast]

One more reason that to restrict the artificer class to Eberron campaigns only; granted, any DM will have whatever mix they like.

[Azuresun]

One more reason that to restrict the artificer class to Eberron campaigns only; granted, any DM will have whatever mix they like.

You seem to be saying this is overpowered, what are you basing that theory on?

[kazaryu]

I'm pretty sure there is a new feat that allows you to learn invocations... You'll have to pay the feat tax, but I think you can make it work fairly easy.

but once again, you're still left with the problem of needing a good charisma in order to make use of agonizing blast.

[Sception]

Is this magic item on the list that artificers can make with their infusions? If not, players will only have it if the DM wants them to have it, so it hardly seems like a reason to get bitter at the artificer.

Otherwise, artificers already have a better way to get int as their weapon attack stat via the battlemaster subclass, and as mentioned eldritch blast on it's own isn't all that strong without stat mod to damage.

Yes, there may be a feat to pick up a warlock invocation, but the agonizing blast invocation adds charisma mod specifically, not any stat mod of your choice, it isn't really going to help that much on a build going so far out of its way to /not/ use charisma with the spell.

Overall a neat item with some neat uses, but from what I've seen so far nothing to get particularly worked up over.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm pretty sure there is a new feat that allows you to learn invocations... You'll have to pay the feat tax, but I think you can make it work fairly easy.

The UA version of this feat require you to be a Warlock to take any invocation that has prerequisites, even prerequisites like "knowing Eldritch Blast".

Additionally, even if Tasha's version is more generous, you would still not qualify as bonuses from magical objects are not taken in account to see if you qualify for taking some options like feats or invocations.

[MaxWilson]

i mean, it reduces the MAD *some* but the all purpose tool is not going to change how agonizing blast functions. so you still only get the cha to damage (RaW anyway, obviously some DM's may allow it), but at least your SAD as far as accuracy goes? so probably better to pick up other things that modify EB, rather than AB if you wanna go SAD. not sure the +1 damage is worth it if you're not going whole hog into warlock.

Ah, good call. I overlooked that.

Agonizing Blast itself isn't necessarily great anyway so much as it's easy to apply--it's such a relatively small effect that I'm sometimes tempted to forego it already. With the All-Purpose Tool thing, it's probably better to pick e.g. Repelling Blast and Devil's Sight (or Lance of Lethargy), and then get your extra damage from blasting enemies across Spike Growth or through Wall of Fire, etc.

[kazaryu]

Ah, good call. I overlooked that.

Agonizing Blast itself isn't necessarily great anyway so much as it's easy to apply--it's such a relatively small effect that I'm sometimes tempted to forego it already. With the All-Purpose Tool thing, it's probably better to pick e.g. Repelling Blast and Devil's Sight (or Lance of Lethargy), and then get your extra damage from blasting enemies across Spike Growth or through Wall of Fire, etc.

i mean, if you can afford to max cha then AB nearly doubles EB damage, but yeah, unless you're going for 20 cha its probably not worthwhile.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Can you cast GFB from Alchemists' Tools? It requires a separate weapon (now worth 1 sp) but you can get the damage rider if you've got alchemist tools in hand right?
"From a stoppered vial the Alchemist, with a deftness that only comes with practice, uncorks the vial, using a single hand. The alchemist pours a single drop of brilliant emerald green liquid, that steams when it touches the longsword in the Alchemist's other hand. The blade catches fire with ghostly green flames."

As a DM and a player, I love to hear players use descriptions like that.
I believe the Tool Spellcasting requirement of the Artificer class is meant to be an aid to roleplaying, not a mechanical restraint.

Of course if you feel differently rule differently. 😀


Agonizing Blast itself isn't necessarily great anyway so much as it's easy to apply--it's such a relatively small effect that I'm sometimes tempted to forego it already. With the All-Purpose Tool thing, it's probably better to pick e.g. Repelling Blast and Devil's Sight (or Lance of Lethargy), and then get your extra damage from blasting enemies across Spike Growth or through Wall of Fire, etc.

Well Said! I agree that the battlefield control enabled by Repelling Blast, exceeds the value of the extra damage from Agonizing Blast.

In fact, in a build that focuses on using Repelling Blast to move creatures around, I would argue you do not want Agonizing Blast at all.
At some point it is going to be useful to slide a friend by shooting them with a beam from Eldritch Blast.

In that situation, one wants to do as little damage as possible.

I could certainly envision an Artillerist Artificer making good use of Repelling blasts to position allies and foes into more favorable configurations for the Eldritch Cannon.

For one Eldritch Blast beam, at least, the extra d8 granted by Arcane Firearm will on average act yield a result entirely comparable to a use of Agonizing Blast that adds +4/+5 to damage.

[Willie the Duck]

So, the first two things that come to mind:

Shillelagh: Int-based instead of wisdom provides some new options. How about multiclassed with Bladesinger? Or go Artillerist 5 and make your Shillelagh staff an Arcane Firearm too!

Eldritch Blast: I hear the Warlocks crying. The best damage dealing cantrip in the game can now be Int-based. Again, Artillerist seems a nice match. Or just get small dip into Artificer and go Wizard the rest of the way with the best cantrip. Mmm good.

What are your thoughts?

Honestly, this is kinda like picking up Shillelagh as a Ranger (except in magic item form) -- it has some uses, but you're putting a lot of effort (and if acquiring these items isn't taking effort, that is the real issue) into shoring up something you already can do pretty well. Yes, it does open up some options because now you don't have to make the selections which facilitate an artificer being good with melee or ranged at-wills, but we already have examples of that: the fighter who never raises their STR because gauntlets of ogre power exist, so it certainly isn't outside the bounds of the game.

While this adaptability is useful, I still would find it rare that I would select a combat cantrip rather than Guidance, Minor Illusion, or Mage Hand. To me, the big story here is that Tasha's has expanded the Rod of the Pact Keeper principle out to the other classes. Not sure if I have an opinion on that, other than to say that I suspect that every wizard player will be looking for those items ASAP (despite the fact that I've never had a warlock in my games do the same for the Rods).

[stoutstien]

Realistically it a solid item for a floating utility cantrip rather than trying to add damage.

[Makorel]

"From a stoppered vial the Alchemist, with a deftness that only comes with practice, uncorks the vial, using a single hand. The alchemist pours a single drop of brilliant emerald green liquid, that steams when it touches the longsword in the Alchemist's other hand. The blade catches fire with ghostly green flames."

As a DM and a player, I love to hear players use descriptions like that.
I believe the Tool Spellcasting requirement of the Artificer class is meant to be an aid to roleplaying, not a mechanical restraint.

Of course if you feel differently rule differently. 😀


The flavor of spellcasting with tools isn't my concern it's about the extra damage from the Alchemist's 5th level ability.

Alchemical Savant
p58
At 5th level, you develop masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist's supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

If an Alchemist can cast Green-Flame Blade from their alchemist's supplies then they can do pretty good damage from a single cantrip although it's fire damage. It's like half of the reason anyone picks Arcana Cleric. I'm just looking for clarification that this is how it actually works and that the material component of the weapon isn't what the alchemist necessarily casts the spell with.

[Stangler]

Seems solid on an Artillerist build that is using GFB for damage. The arty has solid potential for at will aoe damage but one of the problems is it relies on using a staff/rod in melee. It isn’t exactly a massively op build but it is certainly more competitive with this item.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The flavor of spellcasting with tools isn't my concern it's about the extra damage from the Alchemist's 5th level ability.

Alchemical Savant
p58
At 5th level, you develop masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist's supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

If an Alchemist can cast Green-Flame Blade from their alchemist's supplies then they can do pretty good damage from a single cantrip although it's fire damage. It's like half of the reason anyone picks Arcana Cleric. I'm just looking for clarification that this is how it actually works and that the material component of the weapon isn't what the alchemist necessarily casts the spell with.

Alchemist's Supplies only need to be the focus, Green Flame Blade have an M component with a cost.


Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.

If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
From the way it look having the costly M component doesn't stop you from using the focus. It only says you most have costly component, not that you have to use it, it will still be consumed if the spell says so.


In case you don't agree with me:
The question is how the new changes to artificer that give all their spells M component work.

[Silpharon]

The flavor of spellcasting with tools isn't my concern it's about the extra damage from the Alchemist's 5th level ability.

Alchemical Savant
p58
At 5th level, you develop masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist's supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

If an Alchemist can cast Green-Flame Blade from their alchemist's supplies then they can do pretty good damage from a single cantrip although it's fire damage. It's like half of the reason anyone picks Arcana Cleric. I'm just looking for clarification that this is how it actually works and that the material component of the weapon isn't what the alchemist necessarily casts the spell with.

This is really easy... Pick your favorite alchemist tool, say a pestle. Cast GFB and use the pestle as an improvised weapon. Works great with Tavern Brawler feat too.

I'd argue that if you really want to use a different weapon, just hold the alchemist tool in one hand and the weapon in the other. The tool is the spellcasting focus. GFB just says you have to make a melee attack, so do it with the other hand.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I'm just looking for clarification that this is how it actually works and that the material component of the weapon isn't what the alchemist necessarily casts the spell with.

It is technically no different then any other situation where a spell caster wants to use a spellcasting focus on a spell with a material component that has a cost tabulated in coinage.

While the spellcasting focus cannot replace the material component, I think it reasonable to allow any bonuses the spellcasting focus would add to apply.

If a caster has a Wand of the War mage in one hand, and a 100 gp ruby in
the other to cast a spell that the Wand could effect, then the wand should effect said spell.

Otherwise the Artificer tapes a vial of acid to their shield and exclaims:
"If it works for clerics, it should work for me!"

[Silpharon]

I could certainly envision an Artillerist Artificer making good use of Repelling blasts to position allies and foes into more favorable configurations for the Eldritch Cannon.

For one Eldritch Blast beam, at least, the extra d8 granted by Arcane Firearm will on average act yield a result entirely comparable to a use of Agonizing Blast that adds +4/+5 to damage.

Good points. Line em up for the flamethrower hehehe. In all seriousness, pushing away enemies on top of you or your friends seems worthwhile to avoid opportunity attacks, or just shoving one baddie off the edge of a cliff.

For Shillelagh, I'm wondering if Artillerist can get an extra d8 on the first attack from the weapon after the casting:

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

Seems legit to me... Even better, Shillelagh then Booming Blade (that's an Artificer spell now too in TCE). I think you can get two d8s out of that. Add both to the first attack, then (at 17th level) you've got 2d8+Int Mod bludgeoning+4d8 thunder on attack, and 4d8 more if they move. With a 5 intelligence modifier, that's 32 avg damage if they don't move, and 50 avg damage if they do.

[MrCharlie]

Good points. Line em up for the flamethrower hehehe. In all seriousness, pushing away enemies on top of you or your friends seems worthwhile to avoid opportunity attacks, or just shoving one baddie off the edge of a cliff.

For Shillelagh, I'm wondering if Artillerist can get an extra d8 on the first attack from the weapon after the casting:

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

Seems legit to me... Even better, Shillelagh then Booming Blade (that's an Artificer spell now too in TCE). I think you can get two d8s out of that. Add both to the first attack, then (at 17th level) you've got 2d8+Int Mod bludgeoning+4d8 thunder on attack, and 4d8 more if they move. With a 5 intelligence modifier, that's 32 avg damage if they don't move, and 50 avg damage if they do.
Can you clarify what you mean? If you're trying to get two damage rolls, the ability clearly states you only get it once. I also don't think the weapon counts as part of the spells damage, although I'm not 100% sure on that.

[Silpharon]

Can you clarify what you mean? If you're trying to get two damage rolls, the ability clearly states you only get it once. I also don't think the weapon counts as part of the spells damage, although I'm not 100% sure on that.

You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Shillelagh (bonus action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
Then:
You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Booming Blade (action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

I'm not 100% sure on the first part either. You are making a magic weapon with a specific damage roll inherent to the spell (the original weapon roll is replaced). This is admittedly debatable.

[Dork_Forge]

You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Shillelagh (bonus action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
Then:
You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Booming Blade (action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

I'm not 100% sure on the first part either. You are making a magic weapon with a specific damage roll inherent to the spell (the original weapon roll is replaced). This is admittedly debatable.

I wouldn't allow the extra d8 on the Shillelagh cast, when you cast the spell it isn't doing damage, it does damage after the casting using separate action economy.

[Silpharon]

I wouldn't allow the extra d8 on the Shillelagh cast, when you cast the spell it isn't doing damage, it does damage after the casting using separate action economy.

Fair to disagree, I'm not convinced myself, but what part of Arcane Firearm makes you think the damage needs to be dealt when cast? It looks to me that on casting you roll the d8, but you can apply it whenever.

[Dork_Forge]

Fair to disagree, I'm not convinced myself, but what part of Arcane Firearm makes you think the damage needs to be dealt when cast? It looks to me that on casting you roll the d8, but you can apply it whenever.

Personally I take it to be as when you cast it (and think that's the intention) but I can definitely see your interpretation as valid after rereading it. DM dependent, if you actually got this item it would allow a pretty bit initial hit using a SCAGtrip (they'll always be SCAG to me).

[Pex]

You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Shillelagh (bonus action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
Then:
You're supposed to roll a d8 when you cast Booming Blade (action) through your Arcane Firearm and gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

I'm not 100% sure on the first part either. You are making a magic weapon with a specific damage roll inherent to the spell (the original weapon roll is replaced). This is admittedly debatable.

Shillelagh doesn't do damage. It allows you to use your casting modifier to attack with a quarterstaff that now counts as magical if it wasn't, and the damage die of the staff increases to 1d8. When you attack with the staff it's the staff doing the damage, not Shillelagh. Shillelagh is a buff spell, not a damage spell.

[Silpharon]

Shillelagh doesn't do damage. It allows you to use your casting modifier to attack with a quarterstaff that now counts as magical if it wasn't, and the damage die of the staff increases to 1d8. When you attack with the staff it's the staff doing the damage, not Shillelagh. Shillelagh is a buff spell, not a damage spell.

What would you say about Elemental Weapon?

[Pex]

What would you say about Elemental Weapon?

It's a buff spell on the weapon. The weapon does the damage, not the spell.

[Silpharon]

It's a buff spell on the weapon. The weapon does the damage, not the spell.

Interesting, ok. Seems a fair interpretation. I'd like to compile a list of questions for input to sage advice. This seems worthy.