Are all fiends unreasonable?

[Conradine]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.


- - -

Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

[AnimeTheCat]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.


- - -

Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

I'm not super familiar with this, but I am inclined to say that you're correct. The kind of individuals who would be making regular deals with fiends in the first place likely worships one, and will be delivered to it when they pass anyway. If a relationship between a fiend and a mortal is of sufficient benefit to the fiend, I'm inclined to believe that they wouldn't burn that bridge before they've used it to the end of it's life.

To your additional question, I think this is basically Planar Binding/Planar Ally in a nutshell, so I feel like these deals are made outside of those spells just the same.

[Batcathat]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.

I would assume the fiend always act out of self-interest, so if maintaining a good relationship with the mortal would be more profitable one way or the other I assume they would do that. Though I suppose at least some fiends might find it funny to screw over the mortal despite that.


Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

Seems unlikely. They're devils, they don't really want the deal to be fair and that sort of agreement seems like it'd favor the mortal.

[Alcore]

a fiend, as in an outsider with an evil alignment, is not necessarily going to screw the person over. A demon, on account of its chaoticness, might be the most reasonable of evil outsiders; especially if their are convenient targets around.


Unless a devil was truly desperate i don't see one ever going for an informal agreement. It won't even occur to them to accept.

[Telonius]

I'd say that devils would probably greatly prefer that the agreement be in writing. But as long as an agreement exists - and the mortal holds up their end of the bargain - it's still bringing them a step closer to damnation. Honoring a deal is Lawful, whether there's a signature or not. Little steps to bring the person to the LE end of the spectrum.

The devil might even set it up so that whatever benefit they've given conks out as soon as the mortal stops honoring their end. Things go bad for the mortal, then the devil shows up to "save the day" and rescue the mortal. "Look, you've generally been a good business partner. I don't want to give that up, so I'll overlook this slip-up. But next time I'm going to need a formal contract. You saw how well it worked while you held up your end of the bargain. But that broke when you broke it. My bosses are already looking at me pretty closely, and they really don't like it when we do things off the books. I don't want this to go badly. My future is on the line here too. So here's what I'll do. I'm going to increase the offer..."

All true of course; his bosses are looking at him pretty closely, because that's standard practice, not because of anything that the devil's done in particular. And successfully tempting the guy would indeed help the devil's future.

[Doctor Despair]

I'd think a contract would help the mortal just as much (if not more) than the fiend. A contract gives the mortal room to negotiate for their soul in the court after death; iirc, the fiends are pretty good at lawyering in that court, so mortals typically need the positive modifier from having a written loop hole (and to ensure there's no misunderstanding as to what the fiend agreed to).

[Gnaeus]

Most fiends might maintain an agreement which was beneficial to them. Or which they enjoyed, fiends do have emotions. I would think demons would be the least likely to maintain agreements, since unpredictable creatures of chaos and all. But they are all different, and capable of viewing their surroundings through the lens of their likes and dislikes, and making shorter or longer term plans for evil according to their power, nature and intelligence.

Devil question: so, as DM, is there some kind of metaphysical equivalent to the Statute of Frauds? Why? The reason WE have statute of frauds is so a court can arbitrate. I see no reason why a verbal contract wouldn’t be just as magically or legally binding as a written one. (Unless the contract was a magic item or signing was part of a ritual). The devil won’t break it. The human might but would have the same ramifications as a written contract. I would imagine that most contract making devils would be capable of repeating the exact terms of a deal at will, and incapable of lying about an agreement they entered. I agree that the written contract would be mostly for the protection of the non-devil party, who is not bound by their nature to serve the law and who might want a complicated contract to prevent shenanigans like murdering his friends later.

[enderlord99]

Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

I believe that's called a "pact insidious"

[Batcathat]

I'd think a contract would help the mortal just as much (if not more) than the fiend. A contract gives the mortal room to negotiate for their soul in the court after death; iirc, the fiends are pretty good at lawyering in that court, so mortals typically need the positive modifier from having a written loop hole (and to ensure there's no misunderstanding as to what the fiend agreed to).

I suppose it depends on the contract. I imagine a contract written by a devil would be like a modern user agreement on steroids, filled with so much legalese and fine print most mortals wouldn't be able to understand half of it.

[Gnaeus]

I suppose it depends on the contract. I imagine a contract written by a devil would be like a modern user agreement on steroids, filled with so much legalese and fine print most mortals wouldn't be able to understand half of it.

I would agree. But imagine hearing all that boilerplate verbally spoken by the devil at high speed at the end of the negotiation like the disclaimers in a drug commercial. Wouldn’t you at least rather have a copy?

“This agreement incorporates the defining and limiting language contained in the Codex Infernum Vol 4 pp 15385-43734. The contracting devil specifically does not waive any rights included in article 6 sections ¥-€€. Contract disputes will be resolved according to the Librum Malaficarum chapter 98 (which as we all know are totally different than the rules in chapter 97) as a voluntary agreement with a mortal. Signing this deal may result in soul leakage, evil auras and being smitten by passing paladins......

[AnimeTheCat]

I believe that's called a "pact insidious"

On thinking about it again, I feel like an agreement of that nature would carry a certain, "if you don't hold up your end of the bargain, I'm going to devour the souls of those you love in front of you and force you to watch" kind of thing from the Evil Outsider's end of the deal. Since it's informal and all.

[Batcathat]

I would agree. But imagine hearing all that boilerplate verbally spoken by the devil at high speed at the end of the negotiation like the disclaimers in a drug commercial. Wouldn’t you at least rather have a copy?

Heh, I like that mental image. But sure, if the deal is the same either way I would like to have it on paper. I was assuming (not really based on anything, admittedly) that the verbal agreement would be something like "I give you X and you give me Y" rather than just a verbal version of the written agreement.

[TheStranger]

1. Fiends are certainly capable of honoring the spirit of an agreement. But screwing mortals over is almost always more fun and potentially profitable as well. It all depends on where the fiend sees the greater short-term or long-term advantage.

2. As others have said, there's nothing inherently wrong with an informal/oral agreement. It’s likely to be more to the fiend’s advantage than a written contract, unless there’s a metaphysical significance to being signed in blood or something. But there are definitely examples in fiction where just giving your word carries that significance too. I’d assume that most devils would have given some thought to how to word a verbal offer to their advantage, knowing that most mortals won’t be able to pick up on the “gotcha” parts without a written document to parse out.

[Gnaeus]

I would generally think that the higher level the fiend, the more likely that their motivation would be unrelated to the terms of the contract. A bog standard succubus or other tempter probably is most concerned with the contract rewards (souls, soul gems, sacrifices, magic, etc). But a Demon prince or arch devil is essentially a demigod concerned with a portfolio as well as a political being concerned with beating its rivals. I could see Orcus or a top level servant of Orcus caring more about how you were advancing towards lichdom and creating lots of undead than about some deal they made at level 5 when they thought you were a chump. Asmodeus will certainly adhere to the letter of the contract, but if your team is killing his enemies he may have some clause that allows him to delay enforcement of that pesky take your soul bit until it benefits him. Conversely, if your team has become inconvenient to him he may have a clause that accelerated the contract if you kill his minions, which he could orchestrate....

[Grim Portent]

From a Devil's perspective it makes sense to honour all deals you make as best as you can, it builds up a reputation for trustworthiness and encourages repeat business and new customers.

Yoinking a soul a few years early on a technicality is very short sighted, anyone making bargains with you is most likely going to Hell anyway and while they're running around with fiendish boons they're basically free advertising that can lure in more souls. Depending on the place they live I (if I were a devil) would possibly even ask them to publicly acknowledge me as a supernatural patron of theirs provided they wouldn't get in major trouble for it.

If Joric the Dragonslayer, Liberator of the Western Marches, Vanquisher of Demons and Son-in-Law of the king is publicly attributing some of his successes to me it opens up the opportunity to become an established part of the religious and magical parts of the kingdom. If peasants inspired by him start praying to me to cure sick children or guarantee a good harvest there's no reason not to try and fulfil those requests in exchange for their souls. They can live a long and generally fine life, I'm in no rush, the Blood War and Hellish politics will still be going in 80 years when I start getting souls to trade or turn into soldiers.

That said deals shouldn't be overly generous, most souls aren't worth major expenditures of power to claim, but over a long enough time spending a bit of generosity here and there to keep people coming back is just good business practices. Enough investment to lift cultists above the average for their station in life is all it would usually take.


From the perspective of a Demon the calculus is much the same. A good business reputation pays dividends down the line, you have to give cultists something or they aren't going to be able to recruit more. Generosity can demonstrate strength, strength attracts followers and allies. Obviously you can betray such bargains any time you want, but waiting until you have an excuse to do so helps keep people loyal and means you aren't constantly dealing with people breaking deals or abandoning cults.


Some fiends aren't necessarily bargaining for souls or servants mind you, some just want to ensnare mortals in their web so they can torment them for being arrogant enough to try and bargain with a fiend. Such beings betray their mortal partners for the sheer thrill of the betrayal no matter how much long term advantages they risk giving up by doing so. They would gather a reputation for such behaviour though, and generally be approached for bargains less often.

[Gnaeus]

From a Devil's perspective it makes sense to honour all deals you make as best as you can, it builds up a reputation for trustworthiness and encourages repeat business and new customers.

Yoinking a soul a few years early on a technicality is very short sighted, anyone making bargains with you is most likely going to Hell anyway and while they're running around with fiendish boons they're basically free advertising that can lure in more souls. Depending on the place they live I (if I were a devil) would possibly even ask them to publicly acknowledge me as a supernatural patron of theirs provided they wouldn't get in major trouble for it.

If Joric the Dragonslayer, Liberator of the Western Marches, Vanquisher of Demons and Son-in-Law of the king is publicly attributing some of his successes to me it opens up the opportunity to become an established part of the religious and magical parts of the kingdom. If peasants inspired by him start praying to me to cure sick children or guarantee a good harvest there's no reason not to try and fulfil those requests in exchange for their souls. They can live a long and generally fine life, I'm in no rush, the Blood War and Hellish politics will still be going in 80 years when I start getting souls to trade or turn into soldiers.

That said deals shouldn't be overly generous, most souls aren't worth major expenditures of power to claim, but over a long enough time spending a bit of generosity here and there to keep people coming back is just good business practices. Enough investment to lift cultists above the average for their station in life is all it would usually take..

Again, I think it will matter a lot about the prominence of the critter involved. Asmodeus cares about his reputation. Tempter devil 1832 out of infinity tempter devils may have a business model unconcerned with word of mouth repeat business and is way more likely to be on a quota to get results now or face his own punishment.

Just like life, there are business models based on good customer service and ones that aren’t. And the more clout you have the better bargaining position you have to get the better service. You go to Mr. Contract the quickie soul shop because Asmodeus isn’t interested in taking your calls (Or because you plan to cheat too and you are taking your chances with something less reliable but less terrifying). In Chelliax where devil bargaining is a national pastime I would expect a lot of discussion on the best places to go. In any good aligned land you won’t have word of mouth and you are probably dealing with the random fiend who answered your planar binding. In Sigil it may be as low market as a roadside stall. I’ll give you 50 GP and this rat on a stick for your soul but it’s cutting me own throat.

[Conradine]

Would be possible to persuade a low-ranking devil to abandon forever all that hellish bloodwar and become an independent devil?
Of course, that would at very least require to provide him a mortal - or unded - vessel to permanently possess in order to never returning to hell.

[Gnaeus]

Would be possible to persuade a low-ranking devil to abandon forever all that hellish bloodwar and become an independent devil?
Of course, that would at very least require to provide him a mortal - or unded - vessel to permanently possess in order to never returning to hell.

He is likely to have a superior that his lawful nature makes him unable to betray and who will punish him for attempting to leave.

It’s like saying is it possible to persuade a hit man to leave the mafia and become your bodyguard. It is, of course. But it will be very difficult to convince him and by definition the very attempt is going to spawn backlash from increasing levels of infernal authority who don’t like to encourage going AWOL in their underlings. And the devil, by his very nature, is more supportive of hierarchy and following rules than any human.

I would look at devils like the aliens in the Foreigner series by CJ Cherryh. It involves a race descended from herd animals where each individual is defined by loyalty to superiors. They may betray a leader, but only because their true loyalty wasn’t clear to begin with. Only the highest ranked individuals have the faintest desire to be independent. And even they don’t want to escape the system, they just want the top spot.

[Ashiel]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.
- - -
Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

Depends on the GM and their view of fiendish psychology. IMHO, jumping at every opportunity to screw with mortals (read: players) is pretty weak GMing and weaker story telling. If fiends weren't actually useful associates there wouldn't be such fascination with summoning or making pacts with them. For true temptation to occur, you must actually get the goods out of it. The notion that there will come a reckoning later is the warning of the good that is wise but farseeing. Faust in the legend got exactly what he asked for, but regretted the price he paid later when he didn't feel as invulnerable.

In my campaigns, the type of fiend may influence how trustworthy they are, but even chaotic evil fiends like succubi are generally pretty reliable as long as your relationship together are working out for them. An example of one such character that showed up during my games was a succubus who made deals with people to give them things they wanted in exchange for small favors that she would do. The little favors she would ask would often seem fairly innocuous like stealing a religious item from a temple without killing anyone. It's just that the things she asks for are always in the grand scheme of things progressing her own interests or degrading the moral fabric of the world.

Here's an event that transpired in one of my games that might serve as an example.

One of the PCs was down on his luck, his girlfriend dumped him, and he was feeling pretty low. He got in a fight with a mugger on the docks and threw him into the ocean. He was approached by a sexy tiefling who had seen his brawl, and told him he was super cool and she wanted him to accompany her to a bar not too far away. Now properly on an emotional roller coaster he agrees, and she takes him to some warehouses and then into the basements under one where an illegal nightclub dealing in vice was hidden away from the rest of the city.

While there, she suggests that he fight in the fight pit wit her as his sponsor. He might have been feeling a little extra scrappy since the drink he had was laced with drugs. So he ends up participating in this underground bloodsport and defeats the current champion who was an ogre warrior. This got him invited to the club's owner's VIP room. Turned out the master of the den of sin was a succubus, and she congratulated him and told him that he was now her new champion if he wanted to be, and asked him what he wanted in life. Being very depressed, he said he wished that people would like him. She promised to make him a hero of the people if he did as she asked, and the boy went and agreed.

Fast forward a bit later, and she drops by and gets him to go to a local goodly cathedral and while he's there she tells him to grab a religious item (which could have been used to gather information about her due to the magic used in it). She uses her telepathy and charms to get an alter boy to suddenly make a big scene accusing one of the (very innocent) priests of inappropriate behavior with the boy, and the PC grabbed the item and ended up (nearly getting caught) leaping out of a 2nd story window with the mcguffin. The succubus then (again without ever being seen by anyone) used her telepathy and charms on nearby people to create some general unrest to distract guards and a mass alibi where there were plenty of "witnesses" that said they saw the PC chasing a thief who had the item. The entire incident ended up with the religious item being stolen, but the PC was believed to have heroically attempted to stop the man (including leaping from a 2nd story window in his pursuit of the "villain").

Every little favor she called in, the PC got that much more appreciated by society, but society degraded a little bit more each time. The city itself was weakened by the loss of the holy mcguffin, the good-aligned faith was now suffering scandals that weakened the faith of the locals, etc. But boy howdy were there lots of the locals were very impressed with the bravery and valor of the PC. Some of the PCs friends found the situation a little sketchy and decided to try to Scooby-Doo what was actually going on.



Generally, in my experiences, fiends are more interesting when you approach it (as a GM) as if you're playing with fire. They'll give you enough rope to hang yourself with. Or maybe they won't, and will just be helpful as long as they are respected and/or venerated. The evil schemes they enact might never even show themselves in the lifetime of those they're interacting with. Being extra helpful for a hundred people might be a long-con so that they can twist that one special soul a hundred years down the line who hasn't even been born yet. :smallsmile:

============================

As to whether or not devils gotta make contracts for every little thing, (with some exceptions based on psychology of the individuals) almost never. Performing casual favors would build trust and trust is a very valuable commodity. A bit like a car salesman handing out free candy and sodas to prospective buyers. When it came time for a contract, they would very likely to also insist that the contract is as much for your benefit as theirs, and that might not even be wholly untrue since it does prevent the devil from taking more than was agreed upon.

That said, some devils (or even non-devils) might actually propose contracts for minor things to desensitize people to making the contracts at all. In the case of demons, they might be using it as a way of giving a false sense of security (assuming the contract doesn't involve magical compulsions of some sort).

Generally speaking, as a GM I treat the outsiders as NPCs with their own thoughts and opinions. Social skills like Sense Motive, Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy all have their roles to play. You might even want to shop around when dealing with fiends, which is one of the reasons certain fiends become popular in tomes of diabolism and demonology as they have probably cultivated a reputation for being on the level with those who have interacted with them. This might even be why some individuals seek lists or documents or lore manuals that describe the names of specific fiends that have a history of being helpful. Might look something like this (https://blackwitchcoven.com/buer-the-demon-that-heals-all-diseases/).

[torrasque666]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?
Generally a fiend is going to try and screw the mortal over because most mortals who make deals with fiends are also the type to try and get out of their end of the deal. So they try to collect as soon as they can to prevent any possible redemption/escapes/etc.

[blackwindbears]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.


- - -

Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".

It depends how you want to run your fiends. Fiends don't exist, the stories we use them to tell are only interesting because they tell us something about humanity. It's really common, therefore, to run fiends as though they were humans, but always really selfish.

This is why you see a lot of discussion here about "repeat business" or appealing to fiends self interest.

That is not how I run fiends at my table. That is how I run evil humanoids.

At my table, fiends are literally made of their alignment concepts. Fiends do not think about whether its in their best interest to keep amicable terms with mortals. They are composed entirely of evil in a way that mortals simply can't understand. There is no such thing as a "win-win" situation to them. They can't refrain from being evil because it's to their advantage because they have no concept of not evil. Have you ever met someone with a real stick-up-their ass about rules? Like if they just let a technicality go, everyone would be substantially better off. But they can't just let it go for some reason. Fiends are that to a completely inhuman extent in the service of Evil.

This is not a very standard view, and it applies also to lawful beings. This stuff about devils with complicated contracts that they're going to screw you on is a really common view and it's a lot of fun.

I take a different view: My devils cannot do anything that would break their word. They do not need contracts to keep them honest, they are beings made of law. They hate mortals for their ability to lie, to break agreements, and to otherwise behave dishonorably. Any devil would consider it worth their eternal life a million times over to bring pain to any of these horrifyingly untrustworthy mortals. They have no sense of proportionality, no sense of forgiveness. No matter how much they personally stand to benefit bringing a mortal anything other than unimaginable pain and death is anathema.

[blackwindbears]

Would be possible to persuade a low-ranking devil to abandon forever all that hellish bloodwar and become an independent devil?
Of course, that would at very least require to provide him a mortal - or unded - vessel to permanently possess in order to never returning to hell.

I would say absolutely not. A being made of the belief in law and evil abandoning their post! That seems like the sort of thing a daemon or demon would definitely want to do.




Depends on the GM and their view of fiendish psychology. IMHO, jumping at every opportunity to screw with mortals (read: players) is pretty weak GMing and weaker story telling. If fiends weren't actually useful associates there wouldn't be such fascination with summoning or making pacts with them. For true temptation to occur, you must actually get the goods out of it. The notion that there will come a reckoning later is the warning of the good that is wise but farseeing. Faust in the legend got exactly what he asked for, but regretted the price he paid later when he didn't feel as invulnerable.

In my campaigns, the type of fiend may influence how trustworthy they are, but even chaotic evil fiends like succubi are generally pretty reliable as long as your relationship together are working out for them. An example of one such character that showed up during my games was a succubus who made deals with people to give them things they wanted in exchange for small favors that she would do. The little favors she would ask would often seem fairly innocuous like stealing a religious item from a temple without killing anyone. It's just that the things she asks for are always in the grand scheme of things progressing her own interests or degrading the moral fabric of the world.

Here's an event that transpired in one of my games that might serve as an example.

One of the PCs was down on his luck, his girlfriend dumped him, and he was feeling pretty low. He got in a fight with a mugger on the docks and threw him into the ocean. He was approached by a sexy tiefling who had seen his brawl, and told him he was super cool and she wanted him to accompany her to a bar not too far away. Now properly on an emotional roller coaster he agrees, and she takes him to some warehouses and then into the basements under one where an illegal nightclub dealing in vice was hidden away from the rest of the city.

While there, she suggests that he fight in the fight pit wit her as his sponsor. He might have been feeling a little extra scrappy since the drink he had was laced with drugs. So he ends up participating in this underground bloodsport and defeats the current champion who was an ogre warrior. This got him invited to the club's owner's VIP room. Turned out the master of the den of sin was a succubus, and she congratulated him and told him that he was now her new champion if he wanted to be, and asked him what he wanted in life. Being very depressed, he said he wished that people would like him. She promised to make him a hero of the people if he did as she asked, and the boy went and agreed.

Fast forward a bit later, and she drops by and gets him to go to a local goodly cathedral and while he's there she tells him to grab a religious item (which could have been used to gather information about her due to the magic used in it). She uses her telepathy and charms to get an alter boy to suddenly make a big scene accusing one of the (very innocent) priests of inappropriate behavior with the boy, and the PC grabbed the item and ended up (nearly getting caught) leaping out of a 2nd story window with the mcguffin. The succubus then (again without ever being seen by anyone) used her telepathy and charms on nearby people to create some general unrest to distract guards and a mass alibi where there were plenty of "witnesses" that said they saw the PC chasing a thief who had the item. The entire incident ended up with the religious item being stolen, but the PC was believed to have heroically attempted to stop the man (including leaping from a 2nd story window in his pursuit of the "villain").

Every little favor she called in, the PC got that much more appreciated by society, but society degraded a little bit more each time. The city itself was weakened by the loss of the holy mcguffin, the good-aligned faith was now suffering scandals that weakened the faith of the locals, etc. But boy howdy were there lots of the locals were very impressed with the bravery and valor of the PC. Some of the PCs friends found the situation a little sketchy and decided to try to Scooby-Doo what was actually going on.



Generally, in my experiences, fiends are more interesting when you approach it (as a GM) as if you're playing with fire. They'll give you enough rope to hang yourself with. Or maybe they won't, and will just be helpful as long as they are respected and/or venerated. The evil schemes they enact might never even show themselves in the lifetime of those they're interacting with. Being extra helpful for a hundred people might be a long-con so that they can twist that one special soul a hundred years down the line who hasn't even been born yet. :smallsmile:

============================

As to whether or not devils gotta make contracts for every little thing, (with some exceptions based on psychology of the individuals) almost never. Performing casual favors would build trust and trust is a very valuable commodity. A bit like a car salesman handing out free candy and sodas to prospective buyers. When it came time for a contract, they would very likely to also insist that the contract is as much for your benefit as theirs, and that might not even be wholly untrue since it does prevent the devil from taking more than was agreed upon.

That said, some devils (or even non-devils) might actually propose contracts for minor things to desensitize people to making the contracts at all. In the case of demons, they might be using it as a way of giving a false sense of security (assuming the contract doesn't involve magical compulsions of some sort).

Generally speaking, as a GM I treat the outsiders as NPCs with their own thoughts and opinions. Social skills like Sense Motive, Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy all have their roles to play. You might even want to shop around when dealing with fiends, which is one of the reasons certain fiends become popular in tomes of diabolism and demonology as they have probably cultivated a reputation for being on the level with those who have interacted with them. This might even be why some individuals seek lists or documents or lore manuals that describe the names of specific fiends that have a history of being helpful. Might look something like this (https://blackwitchcoven.com/buer-the-demon-that-heals-all-diseases/).

This is a great way to run fiends if you want to use them as characters or NPCs. Fiends in my games are more like impersonal forces. Things that should not be, and completely otherworldly. This makes them piss-poor for any character driven story with them. If you want to use them as characters they need to be people. They can be bad people, clever people, cruel people, patient people, but they basically have to fill out a notecard that says something like: "Regular person EXCEPT ______"

If I was running a game that involved fiends driving the story this is how I'd do it.

[Conradine]

Old idea of mine...

would it be possible to take a low ranking fiend ( a dretch mabye ) and empower him through sacrifices, worship ( building a cult around the demon ), rituals and the like?


And....

to excise your own soul or a fragment of it, and somehow turn it into a fiend?

[denthor]

Your plan would work for chaotic evil demon. Since all they care about is who is capable of killing who. If the agreement is kept and the evil is completed. Deal satisfied. If it is not kept then your hunted. Unless of course you found a way to deny a devil from getting power. Then your failure is tolerated after all who needs laws.

[Quertus]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.

Of course. (Assuming that you don't consider the soul's final destination as such a fault).


Additional question: would a devil agree to an informal agreement? Which means "I sign nothing; I give you x sacrifices now, you pay me, I give you the rest of sacrifices, we shake hands".


a fiend, as in an outsider with an evil alignment, is not necessarily going to screw the person over. A demon, on account of its chaoticness, might be the most reasonable of evil outsiders; especially if their are convenient targets around.


Unless a devil was truly desperate i don't see one ever going for an informal agreement. It won't even occur to them to accept.

I think that "my word is my bond" is a very Lawful attitude, so I don't a devil having trouble grokking that. They may not *trust* a mortal to be similarly trustworthy, and that may influence what risks they are willing to take (getting burned by a mortal simply not upholding their end of a non-binding verbal agreement doesn't look good on one's resume; tricking a mortal into believing that a verbal agreement is non-binding, however, is great fun).


I suppose it depends on the contract. I imagine a contract written by a devil would be like a modern user agreement on steroids, filled with so much legalese and fine print most mortals wouldn't be able to understand half of it.

Actually, both my opinion and my experience agree with Lars: D&D devil's are likely pathetic compared to modern legalese. However, they should be *their setting equivalent* of "legal scholars".

[Ashiel]

This is a great way to run fiends if you want to use them as characters or NPCs. Fiends in my games are more like impersonal forces. Things that should not be, and completely otherworldly. This makes them piss-poor for any character driven story with them. If you want to use them as characters they need to be people. They can be bad people, clever people, cruel people, patient people, but they basically have to fill out a notecard that says something like: "Regular person EXCEPT ______"

If I was running a game that involved fiends driving the story this is how I'd do it.
Fiends generally have very noteworthy mental statistics across the board and the capability of choosing their (non-physical) alignment, so I can't really in good conscience run them as anything other than characters. There are plenty of options for primordial nonsensical things, but when dealing with sapient souls, it just doesn't work for me from an immersion standpoint. It also doesn't really work in any narrative sense I can find, since otherworldly wrongness feels more Lovecraftian to me, whereas fiends in literature throughout history are generally at least comprehensible and attributed personalities, vices, and even virtues (even if those virtues are simply great knowledge or skill at something).

That said, their starting point for me is based off the fiend in question, so instead of "Regular person except _____" it's more like "Regular insert fiend type here except ____". In other words, if you come across a succubus (say via planar binding), it's more than a safe bet to assume they're super evil like the vast majority of succubi. However, they might have different individual (albeit evil) personalities. Some might be more patient than others (especially if they're old), some might take pleasure in physical brutality (which is unusual for succubi), some might actually enjoy spoiling their "pets", some might be impatient (especially the younger ones), some might be especially cowardly or filled with rage, some might be more interested in fulfilling their own hedonistic desires, or might be more interested in getting others to indulge in their sinful vices because the wrong hate the right most of all. There's not much of a chance you'll come across a succubus that is actually benevolent, and if you did, they would probably be very worthwhile to note in some esoteric tome for prospective binders to seek boons from (a bit like a vestige).

An example of how you might have such a demon might be something like,
"The Succubus Demon Ahaletu also known as the Matchmaker is often called upon for its assistance with matters of love and lust. The demon generally appears before the caller in a form that is exquisitely attractive to the caller, to the point that the caller may temporarily forget the reason they called the demon in the first place. Beware, though the caller will almost certainly be tempted by Ahaletu's beauty to beseech the demon to fornicate with the caller, Ahaletu considers such desperate requests to be worthy of its contempt and will surely bring ruin to the caller that loses themselves so easily such desire. Ahaletu has said in prior callings that only one caller has ever successfully earned its affections, but refuses to give the details as to who or how.

Ahaletu is typically made offerings of bodily fluids: blood, semen, and/or saliva. These offerings are burned or evaporated over a candle or fire, and are considered greater if they were acquired during an act of lust, self gratification, or forced intercourse, seemingly in that order from least to most preferred. Based on information shared by Ahaletu, the reasoning for this is that there is a sort of energy associated with the offerings that please its senses, and it prefers self adulation and suppression of wills, with the breaking of innocents to be the most savory to the matchmaker.

Ahaletu can serve as an advisor upon matters of the heart, and speaks of them from a pragmatic perspective, informing the caller how to attract and captivate their prospective mates. This advice is often vulgar to the layman, describing ways of using bodily fluids to stimulate olfactory senses, combinations of herbs that induce arousal or reduce resistance by way of lethargy or intoxication, ways of insinuating oneself into the thoughts of another, and other practical methods of acquiring love from others. Though the advice may often seem to reduce the object of your desires to little more than an object, or their feelings into little more than a game to be played, the results can certainly speak for themselves.

Ahaletu can also be asked to act directly on behalf of the caller, but the caller should do so with some care. The will of Ahaletu has the power to manipulate the minds of those who it comes upon, and when unleashed will bring the caller what they ask with little regard for the safety or sanity beyond these terms. Upon writing this, let it be known that I discovered this firsthand, as Ahaletu aided me in my quest to woo my now wife. I asked that she convince my love to love me too and I was willing to pay any price. However, when Ahaletu was loosed upon the world to make my wish a reality, my wife's former life was destroyed in the process. She went from a beautiful and pure free spirited creature, to a broken and sad shell of herself. At first, in my admittedly selfish thoughts, I suspected she may simply place a spell of some sort over my would-be lover that would make her see me in a new light, but Ahaletu is far more thorough than a simple weaver of enchantments. Nay, she turned every would-be suitor of my love against her, brought her family into financial ruin, and devalued her sense of self worth by compelling indignities against her by men she cared about, until the point that magical suggestion was little more than a catalyst to driving her into my arms and into my bed. In hindsight, I perhaps should have noted I would have preferred my wife to have been a virgin on our wedding night, but beggars cannot be choosers I suppose. Still the results speak for themselves, and I now have the wife I desired who is wholly devoted to me in body and mind. I cannot say that I am without some guilt over the tears she sheds each night in memory of all she has lost, so I will do my best to see to it that she can rest easy knowing that she is mine now and forever. Simply let it be known that Ahaletu will spare no mercy in seeing your desire made manifest, and you may need to be prepared to see people - including the object of your desire - suffer the process that brings what you want to you. However, it will be done and Ahaletu seems to take pride in this process."

-- The Names of Power Revised Edition, Written by Siglor Groat, Translated by Ornic

[blackwindbears]

That said, their starting point for me is based off the fiend in question, so instead of "Regular person except _____" it's more like "Regular insert fiend type here except ____". In other words, if you come across a succubus (say via planar binding), it's more than a safe bet to assume they're super evil like the vast majority of succubi.

I agree with everything you said in your post. The only thing I want to note, is that basically that follows what I meant by my prescription of "regular person except _____". When you say regular succubus, you mean regular person except extra lustful and evil. It surely makes sense to nest another clause in once you've established for your players what "being a succubus" means, and go on with "regular succubus except ______".

Personally, I find that I've got more evil humanoids than I know what to do with already, so I try to avoid making fiends too human-like. In so doing I necessarily make them less interesting as people.

[Ashiel]

I agree with everything you said in your post. The only thing I want to note, is that basically that follows what I meant by my prescription of "regular person except _____". When you say regular succubus, you mean regular person except extra lustful and evil. It surely makes sense to nest another clause in once you've established for your players what "being a succubus" means, and go on with "regular succubus except ______".

Personally, I find that I've got more evil humanoids than I know what to do with already, so I try to avoid making fiends too human-like. In so doing I necessarily make them less interesting as people.

I think what tends to set them apart in my mind is this: Most evil humanoids are driven by some lack, want, or need. Few if any really want to make the world more evil because evil itself suits them. For most, I think, even orcs, evil is a means to an end. A brutal orc warlord knows evil as the way they achieve power or acquire what they feel they lack. Even if they rape, pillage, and feast on the still screaming infants of their enemies, evil is not the goal but the means.

Whereas with fiends, they are unlikely to be concerned by things that drive people to evil. They are not worried about growing too old. They don't need to eat. The succubus in question was actively, slowly, seeding evil into the world because that's how she preferred it. The evil was the ends. Corrupting a mostly good soul and convincing the masses to idolize the false hero? Pure ecstasy. They're alien beings that have very relatable and understandable psychologies and true sapience but they operate on a completely different level than most mortals are really even capable of understanding because they have trouble imagining that making a mother drown the one child she struggled for years to conceive just to watch them break down might be a pleasant experience that wasn't motivated by lack, want, revenge, or even envy, but just for the satisfaction of the dark energy it produces.

Perhaps this is what you were getting at when talking about alien incomprehensibility?

[Dalmosh]

Yugoloths tend to be all too relatable and easy to deal with - that's part of their whole shtick.

Neither bureaucratic tyrants nor impulsive psychopaths, yugoloths are more about the soulless evil that comes from business as usual. They are selfish, callous and mercenary and enjoy quashing hope and sullying innocence - and the smart ones are generally more into slowly eroding and corrupting your morality than anything so crass as short-term treachery. Dealing with yugoloths is often a bit too good to be true.

They want you to keep coming back of your own free will.

[ftafp]

devils would most likely be more amicable, though it's physically against their nature to do things informally. Demons on the other hand would likely take a more short-sighted approach if the immediate benefits of screwing you over seemed tempting enough. Yugoloths on the other hand will probably play straight with you until the very moment it's more long-term profitable to stab you in the back at which point they won't even follow the contract if you made one.

Regardless of circumstances all fiends are trying to maximize the personal benefit to themselves and the personal suffering of the innocent. That said, I might imagine Rakshasa would be the easiest to deal with. They prefer the most innocent prey and anyone making deals with Rakshasa isn't innocent. Being hedonists, they'll tend to lean towards solutions that maximize their pleasure with minimal effort so as long as you give them a succinct pitch that has lasting appeal and won't get boring for them they'll probably just say "yeah, sure, whatever. Now bring me a baby to eat"

[Zombimode]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.

So the deal made you perform sacrifices on a continual basis? The devil has done its job.
What makes you think that paying the price isn't exactly what screws you over?

[Ajustusdaniel]

I wouldn't say that all fiends are unreasonable, but I would note that the goals and values on which they base their decision making may be distinctly different to those motivating, say, a greedy merchant. If a society of devils, for examples, values betrayal, then a devil may choose to forego a deal what would prove materially advantageous in the long run for the immediate boost in social prestige that invoking the "Screw the Mortal Over," loophole would provide among his peers.

[Conradine]

So the deal made you perform sacrifices on a continual basis? The devil has done its job.
What makes you think that paying the price isn't exactly what screws you over?


Going to Baator with 9 points of Corruption or 9 billions is the same thing.
So if you're damned anyway why not try at least to gain as much as possible from the deal?

And, if the deal is sacrificing others, they are being screwed over - not you.

[Psyren]

The clichè is that a fiend making a pact or an agreement with a mortal will inevitably try to screw him up in a way or another.
But is that necessarily true?

If a mortal provides regular sacrifices and / or offerings, and his requests are reasonable, it seems to be in the best interest of the fiend to keep the partnership on amicable terms.


Of course there are fiends that would do this. The problem (which may not necessarily be a problem) is that typically, a mortal who is evil enough to be aligned with a fiend's goals to a degree that the fiend themselves doesn't feel the need to rock the boat, is one so villainous that they may as well be a fiend themselves. PCs in that situation are vanishingly rare, so this is much more likely to apply to the BBEG or some other antagonist to the party rather than a player.