Musings on a small corner of 5th class design philosophy

[MrStabby]

Recently here has been some discussion around some clases and some comparisons being made between the Paladin and the Monk. There seems to be overall more satisfaction with the paladin class.

I put this down to its different resources, moreover, I think that this could "fix" a lot of classes.

A paladin gets points for lay on hands, gets detect evil and good, gets spell slots, gets channel divinity uses, gets cleansing touch uses... and they all use different resource pools.

There is a Class Fantasy about what a class can do, and the Paladin meets it. Can it detect undead? Heal? Smite? and so on. In ANY day where one of these features is needed, the paladin will be able to do it. THe paladin will go through the day doing a really broad set of things. There is no question about "should I heal my ally or save my class powers for smiting more enemies?"

Then there is the monk. It has Ki. Just one resource. Every time you use step of the wind, you do not stunning strike an enemy. There is an incentive to not use abilities as it eats into your ability to use others. Does the monk really feel, in practice, like it can dodge beter than other classes? Or does the common pool of resource mean that it feels like you never really got that ability?

I think that a design philosophy that uses more, different resources will be more satisfying for a lot of players - yes there is more bookkeeping and a bit more complexity but I think it is worth it in terms of how the characters actually feel.



So I would "fix" the monk class something like the following:

Level 2 Ki abilities unchanged. One pool for 3 abilities. Ki equal to half your monk level. (at this level it is quite a downgrade)

Level 5, stunning strike half your level times per day (At this level it is still a downgrade as you are unable to move all your resources to your more powerful ability)

Level 14, diamond soul - reroll saved wis modifier times per short rest.


So at higher levels a small bonus... but I would also apply this to the subclass abilities.

So a shadowmonk would be able to cast one of their spells twice per short rest rising to 3 times at 6th level, 4 times at 13th level and 5 times at 18th level

An open hand monk would get 2 extra ki at 3rd level, 4 at 6th, 8 at 13th and 10 at 18th. Quivering Palm would be once per short rest.

And so on.



Whilst still aiming for the same overall power level (compensating for the lack of flexability in how resources are used with more overall ability usage), I think that this would make playing these classes a bit more fun. At first, I think some might resent the lost freedom of being able to use all of their resources on one ability, but I think the more diverse experience of the class would in practice outweigh it for most people.


I think the latest trend in UA of "do it for freee then spend resource to do it more" is somewhat of a halfway house that might show promise.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think that making the classes more the same isn't a good thing for the game. Monk is a short rest recovery class with one ressource pool, Paladin is a long rest recovery class with several ressources. Both have "always on" powers. Variety is nice.

Also keep in mind that the Paladin's Divine Smites are fueled by the Paladin's spell slots, meaning that there is a "should I [help in other ways] or save my class powers for smiting more enemies?" dilemma in the Paladin class too. Even if most people will concur the Smite is more powerful the majority of the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think that making the classes more the same isn't a good thing for the game. Monk is a short rest recovery class with one ressource pool, Paladin is a long rest recovery class with several ressources. Both have "always on" powers. Variety is nice.

Also keep in mind that the Paladin's Divine Smites are fueled by the Paladin's spell slots, meaning that there is a "should I [help in other ways] or save my class powers for smiting more enemies?" dilemma in the Paladin class too. Even if most people will concur the Smite is more powerful the majority of the time. Isn't the Paladin's Channel Divinity a short rest recharge?

When you use your Channel Divinity, you choose which option to use. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.
But yeah, most of the features are long rest recharge...

[Gtdead]

I think Monk's problem isn't the shared resource. If anything I think it's a good thing. To illustrate:

There is the variant "spell points" rule. No matter if you have played it or not, would you rather use spell points or spell slots? I think the answer is very easy. The shared and more malleable resource offers more versatility and more power than the rigidity of spell slots. It may be a bit harder to use because it requires the player to remember the costs associated, but past this point, he has extreme control over what he can do in a day, and can use combos to amplify his output that wouldn't be possible with spell slots (like combining lvl 9 spells).

The problem IMO is that monk spends resources on very mediocre effects and pays extremely high opportunity costs. Let's compare Step of the Wind to other similar things:

A rogue gets to do this all day long for free through cunning action.
Haste allows the target to also do this all encounter long, while doubling the speed and keeping the bonus action free.

Rogue pays literally nothing for it. He doesn't have any class feature that competes for the Bonus Action.
Haste pays a lvl 3 slot which for wizard's standards has an extremely high opportunity cost at lvl 5, but lasts for the whole encounter and increases the action economy along with the speed boost.

So really, what is the point of the Ki cost here? What exactly do you pay for? to bloat your action economy? To lose an attack? One of the most common feats in Monk builds is Mobile. Think about it for a while.. the monk invests on a feat that is already a class feature, in order to avoid using this feature.

Rogue on the other hand gets mobile because it synergizes with his feature. He is free to spam Dash to his heart content and takes full advantage of the increased speed that the feat offers.

I'm not aware of any other class that picks a feat to replace a feature. This should be telling of how bad this ability is.

I think all the basic chassis abilities except Stunning Strike need to be made free. Flurry of blows too after lvl 11. There is no point in paying for any of them.

[Unoriginal]

I think Monk's problem isn't the shared resource. If anything I think it's a good thing. To illustrate:

There is the variant "spell points" rule. No matter if you have played it or not, would you rather use spell points or spell slots? I think the answer is very easy. The shared and more malleable resource offers more versatility and more power than the rigidity of spell slots. It may be a bit harder to use because it requires the player to remember the costs associated, but past this point, he has extreme control over what he can do in a day, and can use combos to amplify his output that wouldn't be possible with spell slots (like combining lvl 9 spells).

The problem IMO is that monk spends resources on very mediocre effects and pays extremely high opportunity costs. Let's compare Step of the Wind to other similar things:

A rogue gets to do this all day long for free through cunning action.
Haste allows the target to also do this all encounter long, while doubling the speed and keeping the bonus action free.

Rogue pays literally nothing for it. He doesn't have any class feature that competes for the Bonus Action.
Haste pays a lvl 3 slot which for wizard's standards has an extremely high opportunity cost at lvl 5, but lasts for the whole encounter and increases the action economy along with the speed boost.

So really, what is the point of the Ki cost here? What exactly do you pay for? to bloat your action economy? To lose an attack? One of the most common feats in Monk builds is Mobile. Think about it for a while.. the monk invests on a feat that is already a class feature, in order to avoid using this feature.

Rogue on the other hand gets mobile because it synergizes with his feature. He is free to spam Dash to his heart content and takes full advantage of the increased speed that the feat offers.

I'm not aware of any other class that picks a feat to replace a feature. This should be telling of how bad this ability is.

I think all the basic chassis abilities except Stunning Strike need to be made free. Flurry of blows too after lvl 11. There is no point in paying for any of them.

At least the Tasha's make the Monk's ki spending more worthwhile.

[x3n0n]

I think all the basic chassis abilities except Stunning Strike need to be made free. Flurry of blows too after lvl 11. There is no point in paying for any of them.

I think they were hoping that the jumping ribbon on Step of the Wind was worth enough to bump it up to a ki. (As you said, it isn't.) I think you can safely turn it into free Dash/Disengage without unbalancing anything, and add the ability to spend a ki on the jump for the odd cases.

However, I think the other two are strong enough to justify a ki, and probably for the whole career. While I'd enjoy playing a Monk with free Patient Defense, I think it would overshadow Fighter for all of tiers 1 and 2: 2 attacks, permanent Dodge with decent AC.

[Gtdead]

However, I think the other two are strong enough to justify a ki, and probably for the whole career. While I'd enjoy playing a Monk with free Patient Defense, I think it would overshadow Fighter for all of tiers 1 and 2: 2 attacks, permanent Dodge with decent AC.

Hardly IMO. Monk is one of the most ignorable combatants as it stands and he will still suffer from this problem with this tactic. Bonus action has a high opportunity cost, and choosing between doubling your offense or your defense isn't easy. It's not like he can't do that currently. Pick a bow and kite. No defensive advantage, but he has deflect missiles and can use cover. It will be very strong, but it will be mitigated by the opportunity cost.

However I'm going to alter my suggestion a bit. Instead of free, make it it cost 1 Ki and last 3-4 rounds (you still use your bonus action every turn). So he won't become the new hexblade. Edit: Or make it work only if you are unarmored or something.

[Sorinth]

The problem IMO is that monk spends resources on very mediocre effects and pays extremely high opportunity costs. Let's compare Step of the Wind to other similar things:

A rogue gets to do this all day long for free through cunning action.
Haste allows the target to also do this all encounter long, while doubling the speed and keeping the bonus action free.

Rogue pays literally nothing for it. He doesn't have any class feature that competes for the Bonus Action.
Haste pays a lvl 3 slot which for wizard's standards has an extremely high opportunity cost at lvl 5, but lasts for the whole encounter and increases the action economy along with the speed boost.

So really, what is the point of the Ki cost here? What exactly do you pay for? to bloat your action economy? To lose an attack? One of the most common feats in Monk builds is Mobile. Think about it for a while.. the monk invests on a feat that is already a class feature, in order to avoid using this feature.

Rogue on the other hand gets mobile because it synergizes with his feature. He is free to spam Dash to his heart content and takes full advantage of the increased speed that the feat offers.

I'm not aware of any other class that picks a feat to replace a feature. This should be telling of how bad this ability is.

Although I agree Step of the Wind should probably be free I doubt it would really change anything because as you say the opportunity cost is too high. It's almost always better to do something else with your BA which is why the Mobile feat is always going to be useful, it's good for a Monk because it frees up the BA to do something better, and the same applies to the Rogue.

So I don't see how Mobile replaces Step of the Wind but not Cunning Action. If you want to be a melee skirmisher whether you are Monk or Rogue you want Mobile unless you take the skirmisher specific sub-classes (Drunken Master/Swashbuckler).

[Gtdead]

So I don't see how Mobile replaces Step of the Wind but not Cunning Action.

Rogue gets mobile and essentially becomes a ranged character with 40 range because you always get to use dash. Also rogue gets access to Booming Blade which is another can of worms.
Monk gets mobile and completely forgets about step of the wind unless he desperately needs to either get in range or kite something faster than him. In both cases all he gets out of mobile is 10 ft speed.

There is no comparison between the two playstyles.

[Sorinth]

Rogue gets mobile and essentially becomes a ranged character with 40 range because you always get to use dash. Also rogue gets access to Booming Blade which is another can of worms.
Monk gets mobile and completely forgets about step of the wind unless he desperately needs to either get in range or kite something faster than him. In both cases all he gets out of mobile is 10 ft speed.

There is no comparison between the two playstyles.

Cunning Action grants the Rogue 3 abilities as a Bonus Actions one of which Disengage and is rendered mostly irrelevant by the Mobile feat.
Ki (Which is the actual name of the ability) grants the Monk 3 abilities as a Bonus Action, one of which is Step of the Wind and is rendered mostly irrelevant by the Mobile feat and the Monk's already increased movement.

In both cases the main benefit of Mobile is that you don't have to spend your BA to Disengage which renders one your abilities mostly irrelevant.

[Gtdead]

Cunning Action grants the Rogue 3 abilities as a Bonus Actions one of which Disengage and is rendered mostly irrelevant by the Mobile feat.
Ki (Which is the actual name of the ability) grants the Monk 3 abilities as a Bonus Action, one of which is Step of the Wind and is rendered mostly irrelevant by the Mobile feat and the Monk's already increased movement.

In both cases the main benefit of Mobile is that you don't have to spend your BA to Disengage which renders one your abilities mostly irrelevant.

In one case you don't have to spend your BA
In the other case your don't have to spend both BA and Ki.

Once both classes get Mobile,

Rogue continues using his BA in synergy with the new feat because it's the best option.
Monk stops using these abilities and uses Ki for Stunning Strike or subclass abilities, unless he is in a bind.

[Hael]

Monks have a pretty large array of design problems. The biggest in my opinion, is that the good at everything, master of nothing schtick they run with is actually not true at any one time. Instead, its only true at certain levels, and you have to be actively aware of when that is (making it a very hard class for beginners).

For instance, depending on the subclass, there are many levels where a monk is simply a terrible tank (and gets absolutely smashed when in melee range). Otoh there are a number of lvls where they make an pretty good tank. Similar stories for damage, utility and CC.

The common element is that whenever a monk is good at something, its always on the very edge of being not good (eg about to get outscaled). The other class that shares this issue (imo) is the moon druid, where there is a similar fuzziness about the exact class role depending on level.

This is quite difficult in parties where certain roles are expected. Note how different this is than another generalist class, the Bard.. Bards are good at many things, and *stay* good at many things throughout their entire life (at least past the first few lvls). Relatedly, the generalist class is completely starved for feats/asis. Again compare this to the bard, which can take cool feats like inspiring leader b/c why not.. The monk is almost never able to do this.

[Amechra]

A fun little anecdote: for the longest time, I misread the "or" in Step of the Wind as "and", so I thought that you were spending Ki to Dash+Disengage+jump further.

And that felt balanced. The only reason I didn't use it more than I did was because I was a Drunken Fist Monk, so I got a free Disengage whenever I flurried (which does a lot to explain my misreading, come to think of it...)

[Sorinth]

In one case you don't have to spend your BA
In the other case your don't have to spend both BA and Ki.

Once both classes get Mobile,

Rogue continues using his BA in synergy with the new feat because it's the best option.
Monk stops using these abilities and uses Ki for Stunning Strike or subclass abilities, unless he is in a bind.

Both classes get the Mobile feat and as a result.
The Rogue stops using one of the three options granted by the Cunning Action ability.
The Monk stops using one of the three options granted by the Ki ability.

It's exactly the same, they've both taken a feat that makes a part of their class feature irrelevant which provides increased synergy because it frees up the BA for one of the two other uses of the feature.

[LudicSavant]

Recently here has been some discussion around some clases and some comparisons being made between the Paladin and the Monk. There seems to be overall more satisfaction with the paladin class.

I put this down to its different resources, moreover, I think that this could "fix" a lot of classes.

A paladin gets points for lay on hands, gets detect evil and good, gets spell slots, gets channel divinity uses, gets cleansing touch uses... and they all use different resource pools.

There is a Class Fantasy about what a class can do, and the Paladin meets it. Can it detect undead? Heal? Smite? and so on. In ANY day where one of these features is needed, the paladin will be able to do it. THe paladin will go through the day doing a really broad set of things. There is no question about "should I heal my ally or save my class powers for smiting more enemies?"

Then there is the monk. It has Ki. Just one resource. Every time you use step of the wind, you do not stunning strike an enemy. There is an incentive to not use abilities as it eats into your ability to use others. Does the monk really feel, in practice, like it can dodge beter than other classes? Or does the common pool of resource mean that it feels like you never really got that ability?

I think that a design philosophy that uses more, different resources will be more satisfying for a lot of players - yes there is more bookkeeping and a bit more complexity but I think it is worth it in terms of how the characters actually feel.



So I would "fix" the monk class something like the following:

Level 2 Ki abilities unchanged. One pool for 3 abilities. Ki equal to half your monk level. (at this level it is quite a downgrade)

Level 5, stunning strike half your level times per day (At this level it is still a downgrade as you are unable to move all your resources to your more powerful ability)

Level 14, diamond soul - reroll saved wis modifier times per short rest.


So at higher levels a small bonus... but I would also apply this to the subclass abilities.

So a shadowmonk would be able to cast one of their spells twice per short rest rising to 3 times at 6th level, 4 times at 13th level and 5 times at 18th level

An open hand monk would get 2 extra ki at 3rd level, 4 at 6th, 8 at 13th and 10 at 18th. Quivering Palm would be once per short rest.

And so on.



Whilst still aiming for the same overall power level (compensating for the lack of flexability in how resources are used with more overall ability usage), I think that this would make playing these classes a bit more fun. At first, I think some might resent the lost freedom of being able to use all of their resources on one ability, but I think the more diverse experience of the class would in practice outweigh it for most people.


I think the latest trend in UA of "do it for freee then spend resource to do it more" is somewhat of a halfway house that might show promise.

One thing I'd note about the Monk vs Paladin design is that the Monk is substantially more MAD.

"What? But Ludic, Paladins needs Strength (or Dexterity) and Charisma, and Monks need Wisdom and Dexterity! They both have two 'main' stats!" Well yes, yes they do, but it is the degree to which they rely on those stats that differs.

Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma. But if you did, you'd still Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, have a good AC, and even cast spells without a Save DC just about as well as the next Paladin. Likewise, you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with a low (attack stat), but if you do, at least your aura and spells would work at full strength, and you'd only need (14 Dex or 15 Str) in order to have the best armor, as opposed to maxing that stat.

By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if they're not maxing both their stats. You need Dex and Wisdom to land a Stunning Strike (as opposed to just Str to land a Divine Smite). You need Dex and Wisdom to have a passable AC (as opposed to just 14 or 15 in one attack stat). And so on and so forth. A Monk that's low in either stat isn't just bad at some of their kit, they're bad at just about all of it.

Indeed, Monk scaling is tied so thoroughly to their stats that it's difficult to mechanically justify being any race other than +Dex/+Wis and taking just about anything other than Dex/Wis ASIs on them for their entire progression.

If Paladin were designed like Monk (e.g. designed worse), it would make Divine Smite damage based on Charisma, and Lay on Hands healing based on Charisma, and AC based on Str+Cha, and aura based on Str+Cha somehow, and so on and so forth. See what I mean? The number of stats they scale on is the same, but the amount to which everything is tied into those two stats is different. If a Paladin leaves one stat at 14 or 16 but maxes the other, they have strengths and weaknesses. If a Monk does that, they just suck at every aspect of being a Monk.

[Sorinth]

Monks have a pretty large array of design problems. The biggest in my opinion, is that the good at everything, master of nothing schtick they run with is actually not true at any one time. Instead, its only true at certain levels, and you have to be actively aware of when that is (making it a very hard class for beginners).

For instance, depending on the subclass, there are many levels where a monk is simply a terrible tank (and gets absolutely smashed when in melee range). Otoh there are a number of lvls where they make an pretty good tank. Similar stories for damage, utility and CC.

The common element is that whenever a monk is good at something, its always on the very edge of being not good (eg about to get outscaled). The other class that shares this issue (imo) is the moon druid, where there is a similar fuzziness about the exact class role depending on level.

This is quite difficult in parties where certain roles are expected. Note how different this is than another generalist class, the Bard.. Bards are good at many things, and *stay* good at many things throughout their entire life (at least past the first few lvls). Relatedly, the generalist class is completely starved for feats/asis. Again compare this to the bard, which can take cool feats like inspiring leader b/c why not.. The monk is almost never able to do this.

You have a point but I don't think it's as bad as you say. Yeah the monk can get destroyed in melee, but that rarely happens if they've used Patient Defence that turn. So is it a case of them sucking at being a secondary tank, or a case of mistakes being punishing. Managing Ki is similar in that if you mismanage it you've either gimped yourself by not spending it, or run out when you really need it. Either way it's punishing for your character and so yeah it's certainly not beginner friendly.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly, I think folding the Monk into the Fighter (and Rogue) would have been better, especially if Superiority Dice had been kept as a core Fighter feature. So instead of having one class which does several things quite poorly you'd get several more supernatural Fighter subclasses which do one thing very well (a tank, a skirmisher, an unarmed fighter/grappler...)

But as for the Monk class itself, the core structure is fine, the specifics just need tweaking. Plus a name change, it should really be the Xia or Enlightened Warrior (but then we get into Barbarian versus Berserker stuff).

[Sorinth]

There is a Class Fantasy about what a class can do, and the Paladin meets it. Can it detect undead? Heal? Smite? and so on.

I'm not sure I'd agree that things like Detect Undead or Smite are part of the Paladin class fantasy, but regardless isn't the problem that the monk doesn't have a set of class fantasy abilities beyond punch people and have vague mystic abilties?

[Amechra]

Something that I think people miss about the Monk is that every single subclass has tools that let you support the party without getting stuck in melee. Drunken Fist and Open Hand let you get out of melee without spending your BA on it, Long Death and Shadow can spend an action to debuff mobs of enemies in a way that also lets them get out of trouble (through either fear or just dropping Darkness so that creatures can't take OAs), and Four Elements, Kensei, and Sun Soul all have decent ranged options.

Heck, the core chassis gives you enough movement speed to run around a creature's threatened area (up a wall if necessary).

I honestly don't know why people keep looking at the Monk and going "ah yes, this highly-mobile class with a d8 hit-die should be a tank". Do people do the same thing with the Rogue, and I just haven't noticed? Does Extra Attack make people think "ah, this class must play like the Fighter"?

---

I'd also argue that a Monk can get by just fine with a Wisdom of 14, if they have to. That gives them Studded Leather AC (which is acceptable for a skirmisher who has ways to prevent OAs), and it de-emphasizes Stunning Strike. While that does hurt, it's not the end of the world - if you have to land that stun, you just need to expect to burn more ki to get it to land. And if you save it for spellcasters, most of the NPC caster statblocks have miserable Con saves - if your 5th level party is facing down a Mage, having a 14 Wis instead of a 16 Wis is still going to give them a 40% chance of passing (instead of 35%). Just don't use it on giants and the like, and you should be fine.

Do you want more Wisdom? Of course. But I think people overstate how dependent the Monk is on having that high Wisdom.

[LudicSavant]

There is a Class Fantasy about what a class can do, and the Paladin meets it.

I agree that the 5e Paladin does a good job of fulfilling the class fantasy. The little details here matter.

For example, the fact that smite is a powerful but limited nova ability. That's important, because one of the most paladinly things around is to dig down deep to unleash all of your strength in one heroic blow that makes the villain explode. Like so. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujC7rxFVZ18)

Other things include the fact that a Paladin actually keeps saying 'stand close to me, I'll protect you' because of their aura. That's not just something they say in character, they say it out of character too. Like, all the time.

That's good ludonarrative design. It doesn't just allow you to imagine you're a Paladin, it actively helps to put a player in that headspace, to give them that experience as they play, arising from the mechanics.

[x3n0n]

I'd also argue that a Monk can get by just fine with a Wisdom of 14, if they have to. That gives them Studded Leather AC (which is acceptable for a skirmisher who has ways to prevent OAs), and it de-emphasizes Stunning Strike. While that does hurt, it's not the end of the world - if you have to land that stun, you just need to expect to burn more ki to get it to land. And if you save it for spellcasters, most of the NPC caster statblocks have miserable Con saves - if your 5th level party is facing down a Mage, having a 14 Wis instead of a 16 Wis is still going to give them a 40% chance of passing (instead of 35%). Just don't use it on giants and the like, and you should be fine.

Do you want more Wisdom? Of course. But I think people overstate how dependent the Monk is on having that high Wisdom.

There's definitely opportunity cost, though. If you're not going to stun or get a better-than-studded AC, Monk is probably not the most optimal mechanical choice. (Compare with Fighter: you could be a Battle Matter with d10 HD.)

That said, I think post-Tashas Lizardfolk (+Dex) makes a mean Kensei, and not a bad Drunken Master or Shadow (none of which have non-stun ki saves). You can keep Wis 14 for your whole career if you're willing to top out at 18 AC, and as early as level 8, leaving room for more feats.

Edit: that Kensei could start with 17 Dex and choose from several Dex half-ASI feats to even out at 4. Skill Expert + Lizardfolk is a lot of skills plus an expertise.

[MaxWilson]

By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if they're not maxing both their stats. You need Dex and Wisdom to land a Stunning Strike (as opposed to just Str to land a Divine Smite). You need Dex and Wisdom to have a passable AC (as opposed to just 14 or 15 in one attack stat).

I feel quite differently. There's nothing wrong with a Dex 20 Wis 16 Defensive Duelist Elemonk, for example. AC 18 +4-6 is quite respectable except against mobs, and mobs are something a Fireball Monk excels at evading or eliminating. Does losing a bit of AC and DC hurt? Sure, a little. But falling apart completely? Not hardly, especially if you pick up other good feats instead.

There are other examples I could have chosen, like a Dex 20 Wis 16 Sharpshooter Kensei, or a Goblin Skulker Shadow Monk relying on Nimble Escape instead of AC.

However, I agree that multiclassed Paladins can milk more out of just Charisma (ignoring Strength) than monks can out of just Dex or just Wis. I just think "falls apart completely" is overstating the point--it's more that monks miss out on an opportunity relative to Paladins to become more SAD through multiclassing. If there were such a thing as a Wis-based Warlock, multiclassed monks would be as SAD as multiclassed paladins.


There's definitely opportunity cost, though. If you're not going to stun or get a better-than-studded AC, Monk is probably not the most optimal mechanical choice. (Compare with Fighter: you could be a Battle Matter with d10 HD.)


Agreed, the opportunity cost of playing a monk in the first place is high. E.g. a Kensei Sharpshooter is not a better Sharpshooter than a Battlemaster or EK, he's just a better action hero while still being a good Sharpshooter. You want to play John Wicke, be a Kensei. (Sometimes you shoot bad guys, sometimes you disarm them and they disarm you and you kick them in the head until they die; you walk away from explosions unarmed and survive ridiculous falls.) You want to play the Punisher, be a Battlemaster. (You kill things very quickly as long as you've got your favorite weapon and lots of ammo.)

I'm not saying monk is the best choice for a low-stat-roll PC, just that investing in feats instead of stats is sometimes better than not.

[x3n0n]

If there were such a thing as a Wis-based Warlock, multiclassed monks would be as SAD as multiclassed paladins.

By that, do you mean "get a way to always attack with Wis"?

If so, have you looked at Way of the Astral Self? I'm impressed with how Wis-contained it is: all unarmed strikes (with reach!) and all Str skill checks while you're in special form (for just 1 ki per 10 minutes).

Edit: in your post, what are the 4-6 in "AC 18 +4-6"?

[MaxWilson]

(C) By that, do you mean "get a way to always attack with Wis"?

(B) If so, have you looked at Way of the Astral Self? I'm impressed with how Wis-contained it is: all unarmed strikes (with reach!) and all Str skill checks while you're in special form (for just 1 ki per 10 minutes).

(A) Edit: in your post, what are the 4-6 in "AC 18 +4-6"?

(A) It's my guesstimate of the benefit you'd be getting from Defensive Duelist by the time you've got Dex 20 Wis 16.

(B) I remember being underwhelmed by it as UA (feels like a monk without a subclass, just slightly-improved base class abilities) and also finding the flavor a turnoff. I'll give it another look when my copy of Tasha's arrives.

(C) I think that's a large part of it, but ability to function at range is also important in my eyes. I don't think the existence of Shillelagh and Booming Blade alone are enough to put monks on the same SADness level as padlocks. Monk/Moon Druids are definitely more interesting than they first appear (e.g. consider an AC 18 (Wis 20) Giant Spider with Extra Attack inside of Darkness (blindsight)) but you're still left with that relative weakness at ranged combat.

[LudicSavant]

I feel quite differently. There's nothing wrong with a Dex 20 Wis 16 Defensive Duelist Elemonk, for example. AC 18 +4-6 is quite respectable except against mobs, and mobs are something a Fireball Monk excels at evading or eliminating. Does losing a bit of AC and DC hurt? Sure, a little. But falling apart completely? Not hardly, especially if you pick up other good feats instead.

There are other examples I could have chosen, like a Dex 20 Wis 16 Sharpshooter Kensei, or a Goblin Skulker Shadow Monk relying on Nimble Escape instead of AC.

However, I agree that multiclassed Paladins can milk more out of just Charisma (ignoring Strength) than monks can out of just Dex or just Wis. I just think "falls apart completely" is overstating the point--it's more that monks miss out on an opportunity relative to Paladins to become more SAD through multiclassing. If there were such a thing as a Wis-based Warlock, multiclassed monks would be as SAD as multiclassed paladins.

I think I chose my words poorly there. It says "Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma. (...) By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if they're not maxing both their stats."

It should have been "Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma. (...) By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if either of their stats are low." Comparing like to like.

The point I'm trying to get across is basically that a Paladin that dumps 1 of their main stats will suffer less than a Monk that dumps 1 of their main stats. A Paladin with an 8 Charisma will still have a competent AC, competent smiting, competent Lay on Hands, a competent steed, and competent use of spells that don't have spell DCs. I can't say something similar for a Monk that has 8 Dexterity or 8 Wisdom; they'll basically tank both their offense and defense.

Edit:
The Monk and Paladin are not equally MAD. A Monk and Paladin both have 2 main stats, but the Monk ties more of their kit into their stats. Also, a Paladin tends to have any given feature scale on one or no stats (although different features use different stats), while a Monk tends to have individual core features scale on both stats. It's a core aspect of their design that I feel was a mistake.

The end result is that Monks tend to feel like they have less room to customize. And when they do customize, it tends to be less optimal than not doing so (even if it's not necessarily 'falling apart').

Heck, even when the only choices involved are ASIs, the Paladin's choices feel 'meatier' because there's a pretty clear difference between a Cha-boosting Paladin and a Str-boosting Paladin, emphasizing different styles. But losing a point in Dex or Wis both cause lower AC and lower success rate on Stunning Strike, it feels less like a distinctive difference between those character choices and therefore less satisfying.

[MaxWilson]

I think I chose my words poorly there. It says "Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma. (...) By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if they're not maxing both their stats."

(A) It should have been "Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma. (...) By contrast, a Monk falls apart completely if either of their stats are low." Comparing like to like.

The point I'm trying to get across is basically that a Paladin that dumps 1 of their main stats will suffer less than a Monk that dumps 1 of their main stats. (B) A Paladin with an 8 Charisma will still have a competent AC, competent smiting, competent Lay on Hands, a competent steed, and competent use of spells that don't have spell DCs. (C) I can't say something similar for a Monk that has 8 Dexterity or 8 Wisdom; they'll basically tank both their offense and defense.
___

(D) The Monk and Paladin are not equally MAD. A Monk and Paladin both have 2 main stats, but the Monk ties more of their kit into their stats. Also, a Paladin tends to have any given feature scale on one or no stats (although different features use different stats), while a Monk tends to have individual core features scale on both stats.

The end result is that Monks tend to feel like they have less room to customize. And when they do customize, it tends to be less optimal than not doing so (even if it's not necessarily 'falling apart').

(A) and (D), thanks for rephrasing. In a lot of ways I think I agree: the Monk is more MAD (harder to play with an array of 14 14 10 10 10 10 for example, whereas I think a Paladin could make that array work).

On the other hand, I think (B) would be quite bad, bad enough that you wouldn't want to play a paladin at all relative to a Fighter, and perhaps worse than (C). I could see a Dex 20 Wis 8 Sharpshooter Kensai working out okay. All you need is someone to Mage Armor you, and then you just mostly ignore Stunning Strike except against Beholders/Vampires/spellcasters and you're fine. I think that Kensai would play more like a regular Sharpshooter Kensai than a Cha 8 Paladin would play like a regular Paladin (much less Padlock).

[LudicSavant]

On the other hand, I think (B) would be quite bad

Yes. I said as much myself:

Now, obviously you wouldn't want to have a Paladin with low Charisma.

It was just an extreme example to try and make the design factor I was trying to point out more obvious.

Namely that individual Paladin features tend to scale with 1 stat (Cha OR Str/Dex), while individual Monk abilities tend to scale with 2 stats (Dex AND Wis).

[Amechra]

There's definitely opportunity cost, though. If you're not going to stun or get a better-than-studded AC, Monk is probably not the most optimal mechanical choice. (Compare with Fighter: you could be a Battle Matter with d10 HD.)

That said, I think post-Tashas Lizardfolk (+Dex) makes a mean Kensei, and not a bad Drunken Master or Shadow (none of which have non-stun ki saves). You can keep Wis 14 for your whole career if you're willing to top out at 18 AC, and as early as level 8, leaving room for more feats.

Edit: that Kensei could start with 17 Dex and choose from several Dex half-ASI feats to even out at 4. Skill Expert + Lizardfolk is a lot of skills plus an expertise.

That's pretty much what I was thinking when it came to "Monks that don't suffer that much from a lower AC/Stun DC."


The Monk and Paladin are not equally MAD. A Monk and Paladin both have 2 main stats, but the Monk ties more of their kit into their stats. Also, a Paladin tends to have any given feature scale on one or no stats (although different features use different stats), while a Monk tends to have individual core features scale on both stats. It's a core aspect of their design that I feel was a mistake.

The end result is that Monks tend to feel like they have less room to customize. And when they do customize, it tends to be less optimal than not doing so (even if it's not necessarily 'falling apart').

Heck, even when the only choices involved are ASIs, the Paladin's choices feel 'meatier' because there's a pretty clear difference between a Cha-boosting Paladin and a Str-boosting Paladin, emphasizing different styles. But losing a point in Dex or Wis both cause lower AC and lower success rate on Stunning Strike, it feels less like a distinctive difference between those character choices and therefore less satisfying.

The funny thing is that I think Tasha's actually has gone a bit of the way towards fixing that. Wisdom-based Monks (you know, the ones that happened to pick up Shillelagh) can use their Wisdom-based melee attacks as their bonus action attack, which makes focusing on Wisdom over Dexterity much more of an actual choice. Similarly, there's way more support for Monk Archers (who don't need as high of an AC as people going into melee, and who can't use Stunning Strike in the first place).

[MaxWilson]

Yes. I said as much myself:

It was just an extreme example to try and make the design factor I was trying to point out more obvious.

And yet, I think I disagree with that point: I believe the Cha 8 Paladin comes out of it sadder about his stats than the Wis 8 Kensei.


That's pretty much what I was thinking when it came to "Monks that don't suffer that much from a lower AC/Stun DC."

Yup. It's psychologically painful to have low Wisdom but it's actually not all that bad in practical terms.


The funny thing is that I think Tasha's actually has gone a bit of the way towards fixing that. Wisdom-based Monks (you know, the ones that happened to pick up Shillelagh) can use their Wisdom-based melee attacks as their bonus action attack, which makes focusing on Wisdom over Dexterity much more of an actual choice. Similarly, there's way more support for Monk Archers (who don't need as high of an AC as people going into melee, and who can't use Stunning Strike in the first place).

Can you elaborate on archer-related changes?

[OldTrees1]

I sometimes wonder, what would it take to rebalance the Monk if they started with infinite Ki at 1st level?

Obviously infinite Ki would be overpowered, but surprisingly only in a few ways and not very far.

This kinda ties back to my concern that resources tend to be unneeded nerfs.

[LudicSavant]

I sometimes wonder, what would it take to rebalance the Monk if they started with infinite Ki at 1st level?

Obviously infinite Ki would be overpowered, but surprisingly only in a few ways and not very far.

This kinda ties back to my concern that resources tend to be unneeded nerfs.

A lot of the Monk's power is wrapped up in Stunning Strike and its ability to force someone to make not one but several saves in a round against one of the more devastating status effects around. If, for instance, Stunning Strike were 1/round, that'd free up a lot more power budget to play with.

[OldTrees1]

A lot of the Monk's power is wrapped up in Stunning Strike and its ability to force someone to make not one but several saves in a round against one of the more devastating status effects around. If, for instance, Stunning Strike were 1/round, that'd free up a lot more power budget to play with.

That was the main one I thought of. Might limit it to 1/2/3 per round at Tier 2/3/4 or some other limit.


4 elements might also need a limit. Each trick 1 per short rest?

[x3n0n]

Can you elaborate on archer-related changes?

I assume it's the combination of
* Dedicated Weapon (shortbow/sling/light-crossbow can be a monk weapon),
* Ki-Fueled Strike letting you attack with the monk-ified ranged weapon as a bonus action, and
* Focused Aim letting you spend ki to add to your attack roll after having seen that the original missed.

[Amechra]

Can you elaborate on archer-related changes?

Running off of stuff that was spoiled (because I don't have Tasha's, and as a cash-strapped grad student probably won't pick it up for a while):

1) Non-Kensei can turn ranged weapons they're proficient with into monk weapons now. This gives every Monk a bit more of an ability to operate at range.
2) Ki-Fueled Strike lets you make an attack with your unarmed strike or a monk weapon if you spent Ki during your action. This means that a Kensei Archer will be able to semi-reliably get off three longbow shots per round after 6th level (two longbow shots, use Deft Strike on one that hits, follow up with a Ki-Fueled longbow shot).
3) Someone with Tasha's can confirm, but I think there's a new ki ability that lets you burn ki to increase your accuracy after you miss, potentially turning that miss into a hit. The utility with Sharpshooter seems kinda obvious.
4) If you're a VHuman or have a custom lineage, you can now start off with the Archery fighting style. That's one of the big reasons why Kensei Archers weren't considered that great before Tasha's.

I think Ki-Fueled Strike might low-key be one of the best possible fixes for the Monk. I can't wait to play with it (I know my DM pre-ordered Tasha's...)

[x3n0n]

3) Someone with Tasha's can confirm, but I think there's a new ki ability that lets you burn ki to increase your accuracy after you miss, potentially turning that miss into a hit. The utility with Sharpshooter seems kinda obvious.


Yes. Comes online at level 5. Also, since you're potentially spending it during your Attack action, it can trigger Ki-Fueled Strike without Deft Strikes (if you had a near-miss).

[MaxWilson]

I think Ki-Fueled Strike might low-key be one of the best possible fixes for the Monk. I can't wait to play with it (I know my DM pre-ordered Tasha's...)

Yeah, it's a really elegant fix. Currently it's the only rule I'm planning on importing into my houserules from Tasha's, and I'll be giving to all monks automatically instead of on a case-by-case basis.

[x3n0n]

(A) It's my guesstimate of the benefit you'd be getting from Defensive Duelist by the time you've got Dex 20 Wis 16.

(B) I remember being underwhelmed by it as UA (feels like a monk without a subclass, just slightly-improved base class abilities) and also finding the flavor a turnoff. I'll give it another look when my copy of Tasha's arrives.

(C) I think that's a large part of it, but ability to function at range is also important in my eyes. I don't think the existence of Shillelagh and Booming Blade alone are enough to put monks on the same SADness level as padlocks. Monk/Moon Druids are definitely more interesting than they first appear (e.g. consider an AC 18 (Wis 20) Giant Spider with Extra Attack inside of Darkness (blindsight)) but you're still left with that relative weakness at ranged combat.

By the way, thanks for all of that. I wasn't accounting for Eldritch Blast, and had missed the reference to Defensive Duelist in context.

I am also not particularly enamored of the Astral Self flavor, but I think the final version of the core mechanic is really appealing (it reminds me of your spitball about Monks being allowed to pair Wis with Athletics by default). It doesn't have a built-in ranged attack (other than the other things we've been discussing in this thread).

[MaxWilson]

By the way, thanks for all of that. I wasn't accounting for Eldritch Blast, and had missed the reference to Defensive Duelist in context.

I am also not particularly enamored of the Astral Self flavor, but I think the final version of the core mechanic is really appealing (it reminds me of your spitball about Monks being allowed to pair Wis with Athletics by default). It doesn't have a built-in ranged attack (other than the other things we've been discussing in this thread).

Now that I have my copy of Tasha's, I've actually been won over my the Astral Monk's flavor. Somehow the picture in the book makes the astral arms seem less downright stupid to me. Maybe it's because they're not as ridiculously oversized as the 10' reach implies.

It's very, very interesting that Astral Monks lose almost nothing when wearing armor and a shield, just some movement speed and the ki-free Martial Arts bonus action unarmed strike. You still need Dex 13 to multiclass, but a Dex 14 Wis 16+ Peace Cleric 1/Astral Monk X would be quite strong. You lose out on the goodness of other subclasses--because overall Astral Monk's features aren't all that exciting IMO compared to e.g. Shadow Monk or Long Death, although things like blindsight are sort of nifty in the right party--but I'm adding Astral Monk to my list of Things To Do When You Roll A Crummy Stat Array."

[Amechra]

Now that I have my copy of Tasha's, I've actually been won over my the Astral Monk's flavor. Somehow the picture in the book makes the astral arms seem less downright stupid to me. Maybe it's because they're not as ridiculously oversized as the 10' reach implies.

It's very, very interesting that Astral Monks lose almost nothing when wearing armor and a shield, just some movement speed and the ki-free Martial Arts bonus action unarmed strike. You still need Dex 13 to multiclass, but a Dex 14 Wis 16+ Peace Cleric 1/Astral Monk X would be quite strong. You lose out on the goodness of other subclasses--because overall Astral Monk's features aren't all that exciting IMO compared to e.g. Shadow Monk or Long Death, although things like blindsight are sort of nifty in the right party--but I'm adding Astral Monk to my list of Things To Do When You Roll A Crummy Stat Array."

I don't know how much has changed from the UA, but iirc that's not how that works. The astral arms don't have their own damage die, so an armored astral monk would be dealing 1+Wis damage with each punch. Now if you picked up the Unarmed Fighting Style... that's a different story.

[MaxWilson]

I don't know how much has changed from the UA, but iirc that's not how that works. The astral arms don't have their own damage die, so an armored astral monk would be dealing 1+Wis damage with each punch. Now if you picked up the Unarmed Fighting Style... that's a different story.

Oh, right, I was only thinking of the to-hit/damage bonus. You're right, the damage die comes from Martial Arts too. So much for that combo.

[Amechra]

Oh, right, I was only thinking of the to-hit/damage bonus. You're right, the damage die comes from Martial Arts too. So much for that combo.

Start off with Fighter for the Unarmed Fighting Style instead of Peace Cleric, maybe?

...

Also, I just realized that Tasha's makes armored Monks semi-reasonable. A Nature Cleric 1/Monk X that picks up Polearm Master at some point basically traded speed and an ASI for improved AC.

[Garfunion]

Instead of creating another resource. Why don’t we just beef up patient defense and step of the wind.

Patient Defense
•Additionally you have advantage on the next strength saving throw or ability check until the start of your next turn.

Step of the Wind
•Remove, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.
•Replace with, and your jump distance is increased by a number of feet equal to an armored movement.

[Amechra]

Patient Defense doesn't really need a boost - there's a reason that it's one of the few ways to Dodge alongside another action (I think the only other options are Action Surge, Haste, and Quickened spells?)

Honestly, I think it'd be simpler to just replace "Dash or Disengage" with "Dash and Disengage" in Step of the Wind. If you want to make Monks better jumpers, I'd let them use Dexterity in place of Strength for jumping as part of Unarmored Movement (that seems like the most logical place to put it, if you wanted to make it part of an existing feature).