Spell-less Paladin

[paladinn]

I tend to want to keep spellcasting to.. well.. spellcasters (cleric, druid, wizard, etc.). To that end, I have been very much interested in all the renditions of a spell-less ranger, and have wondered how a spell-less paladin might work in 5e.

The big issue for paladins is that their Smite feature(s) have been tied to their spellcasting abilities. Before 5e it wasn't so. Has anyone come up with viable, spell-less paladin options?

Gratzi!

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Zealot Barbarian can be a nice spelless paladin.

Fighter, rogue and monk also work well.

[Diovid]

A banneret, cavalier or samurai fighter with the acolyte or knight of the order background?

Edit: isn't the consensus that scout rogue with the Outlander background is the de facto spellless ranger?

[nickl_2000]

Are you looking for reflavoring or are you seeking someone who has homebrewed a spell-less Paladin class?

[Sception]

Yeah, I think the word you're looking for is 'fighter', though zealot barbarian is also a good choice. While smite wasn't directly tied to spellcasting, paladins still were spellcasters in most iterations of D&D, it's one of their main distinguishing features setting them apart from regular 'knight' character types, which are mostly rolled into fighter, so if they're not minor divine casters, they kind of might as well be fighters. Look in particular at battle master, who's damage dice maneuvers can be thought of as a kind of smite.

If you must have spell-less paladins, then maybe take away spellcasting, but leave the spell slots? Just say they can only be used for smites. If you were to do this, I'd also suggest increasing the maximum smite damage by one die so that 5th level smites are actually better than 4th level smites. There are plenty of paladin players, particularly those new to the game, that already play their paladins like this, as it's effective enough and certainly a lot faster and easier to manage. You also would probably want to turn a couple paladin signature spells into class features - particularly 'find steed' and 'improved find steed'.

....

Not sure why the urge to restrict all casting to full casting? I mean, when it comes to superhuman & supernatural abilities justified by magic most classes have some, whether spells or otherwise, in some of their subclasses at least. It's kind of hard to turn a level based high fantasy game into a low fantasy one. Not that it can't be done well or can't be fun, but it is swimming against the stream, and if you're going that route it's easier to just prune the branches that don't fit your vision rather than trying to bend them all into a new shape.

Better imo to just drop rangers and paladins altogether than try to rework them into non-caster shapes. You're probably not going to get a better non-spellcasting ranger than 'fighter and/or rogue with the outlander background', and you're probably not going to get a better non-spellcasting paladin than 'cavalier or battlemaster fighter with the acolyte or noble(knight) background'.

[Grey Watcher]

You could just use your spell slots exclusively for fueling smites. As long as your fellow players know you're following this self imposed restriction, it shouldn't change balance issues too much, since it's a legit way to use the RAW Paladin.

Unless you're looking for a completely non-magical Paladin. That's just a Fighter that you RP in a specific way.

[paladinn]

In OD&D, all paladins were spell-less. They could turn undead, detect evil at will and had limited healing. They could also "dispel evil" at will at 8th level. I think that is too nebulous and possibly OP, so I'm for keeping some sort of Smite.

When the Smite concept was intro'd in 3e, there were no extensions like Branding Smite, Banishing Smite, etc. A smite was a smite. 3e gave an attack bonus equal to the paladin's CHA bonus and +1 damage per paladin level. A paladin could smite once per day per 5 levels. Pathfinder up'ed the damage to +2/level against undead or fiends, and gave a AC bonus equal to the CHA bonus.

I know 5e is dealing with bounded accuracy and all; but I'd really like to divorce the smite ability from spellcasting. I just don't know if the 3e/PF model is over/underpowered.

[nickl_2000]

In OD&D, all paladins were spell-less. They could turn undead, detect evil at will and had limited healing. They could also "dispel evil" at will at 8th level. I think that is too nebulous and possibly OP, so I'm for keeping some sort of Smite.

When the Smite concept was intro'd in 3e, there were no extensions like Branding Smite, Banishing Smite, etc. A smite was a smite. 3e gave an attack bonus equal to the paladin's CHA bonus and +1 damage per paladin level. A paladin could smite once per day per 5 levels. Pathfinder up'ed the damage to +2/level against undead or fiends, and gave a AC bonus equal to the CHA bonus.

I know 5e is dealing with bounded accuracy and all; but I'd really like to divorce the smite ability from spellcasting. I just don't know if the 3e/PF model is over/underpowered.

You get a certain number of smites per long rest, which grows as you level. Level 1 spells are work one Smite Point, Level 2 Spells 2 Smite points, etc then convert the typical Paladin's spell slots to points. The Paladin can spend 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 smite points to smite for the same damage as a smite normally would. That covers the damage difference.

Then toss in 1-2 more channel divinity choices and an extra channel divinity use per short rest (to balance out for the lose of versatility from not being able to cast spells) and you have something that should be close enough.


If you want to keep certain iconic spells like Summon Steed, you can make that 1/week ritual as a class ability at certain level rather than a spell.

[paladinn]

Not sure why the urge to restrict all casting to full casting? I mean, when it comes to superhuman & supernatural abilities justified by magic most classes have some, whether spells or otherwise, in some of their subclasses at least. It's kind of hard to turn a level based high fantasy game into a low fantasy one. Not that it can't be done well or can't be fun, but it is swimming against the stream, and if you're going that route it's easier to just prune the branches that don't fit your vision rather than trying to bend them all into a new shape.


In my mind, anyway, wizards' spell casting is a measure of their devotion to their craft. They forego a lot of the benefits that other classes have in order to pursue their studies, and they reap the rewards in power. Likewise, a cleric's spellcasting is the D&D equivalent of "miracles", and are a measure of his/her special relationship to a deity.

In AD&D 1e, paladins and rangers had access to the full cleric and druid spell lists. Likewise in BECMI. If paladins and rangers are to be junior clerics and druids, they should have access to the full spell lists. But I would rather they not. They are fighters at core, and that distinction should be maintained.

Besides, ranger "spells" are mostly just extensions of their class abilities, and not really "spells" at all.

[Waazraath]

You could just use your spell slots exclusively for fueling smites. As long as your fellow players know you're following this self imposed restriction, it shouldn't change balance issues too much, since it's a legit way to use the RAW Paladin.

Unless you're looking for a completely non-magical Paladin. That's just a Fighter that you RP in a specific way.

I think this is most elegant. As a DM, I'd had out a few extra's - using all spell slots to fuel divine smite makes the character less versatile than a standard paladin, and you loose the semi permanent find (greater) steed. I think I'd hand out 1 or 2 extra Channel Divinity's, and have a (greater) steed show up despite the lack of spell at the appropriate levels.

edit: ninja'd by nickl_2000

[Unoriginal]

In my mind, anyway, wizards' spell casting is a measure of their devotion to their craft. They forego a lot of the benefits that other classes have in order to pursue their studies, and they reap the rewards in power. Likewise, a cleric's spellcasting is the D&D equivalent of "miracles", and are a measure of his/her special relationship to a deity.

Well yeah. But that doesn't change anything about other classes getting spellcasting due to other sources of power or other training and studies.


If paladins and rangers are to be junior clerics and druids, they should have access to the full spell lists.

They're not junior Clerics or Druids. Rangers and Paladins both have way different relationships with nature and the divine than Clerics and Druids have.



They are fighters at core, and that distinction should be maintained.

They're combatants, but they're not capital-letter Fighters. A Fighter's capacities, to paraphrase you, are a measure of their devotion to their craft, and they forego a lot of the benefits that other classes have in order to pursue their studies, and they reap the rewards in power.



Besides, ranger "spells" are mostly just extensions of their class abilities, and not really "spells" at all.

Uhm, no, they're quite literally spells. Which they get from their connection to nature.

I mean you can change that and everything else in your setting, of course, but it didn't sound like you were making a statement about that.

[nickl_2000]

I think this is most elegant. As a DM, I'd had out a few extra's - using all spell slots to fuel divine smite makes the character less versatile than a standard paladin, and you loose the semi permanent find (greater) steed. I think I'd hand out 1 or 2 extra Channel Divinity's, and have a (greater) steed show up despite the lack of spell at the appropriate levels.

edit: ninja'd by nickl_2000

:biggrin: then clearly my idea was a decent one.

[Waazraath]

:biggrin: then clearly my idea was a decent one.

Exceptional I'd say :)

[Jamesps]

I was running a game in a world where magic was controlled by the government, and PCs weren't supposed to have much access to it. Developed a fairly simple spell-less paladin.

At second level they get bardic inspiration, which thereafter works just as main class bardic inspiration for bards.
They gain the ability to spend a bardic inspiration die to smite for 3d6 damage. It's always 3 dice, but the dice increase with the value of the inspiration as per normal bards.

It shifted their focus from holy warrior to "team captain", but that was a desired outcome for this particular campaign.

[CTurbo]

I played a completely spell less Vengeance Paladin from 1-7 and I literally just used all spell slots for smite.

I asked the DM for two things for compensation. Find Steed and Find Greater Steed to be tied into my class features and for my spell slots to recharge on a short rest.

What I got was Find Steed/Find Greater Steed tied into to my class features, some of my smite slots recharged on a short rest a la Arcane Recover/Natural Recovery, my Lay On Hands became 5+ Cha mod per level, and I got a free feat.

It worked out just fine.