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Emperor Demonking
2007-11-04, 09:38 AM
When I looked at the first page something seemed to be missing so.

Say a wizard needs to kill a monk before the monk can get to the closest town , a day away. The monk knows about the wizard.
Can the wizard do it, can the monk survive.
Both level 20.

AmberVael
2007-11-04, 09:41 AM
Okay, couple questions on the scenario first:
Has the wizard been to the town before, or, more specifically, can he teleport into the town?
Does the monk need to only set foot in town, or accomplish some goal there?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-04, 09:43 AM
Wizard

Scry:'where is the monk?
Teleport to a bit further on along the path from the where the monk is.
Celerity; dimensional anchor, forcecage, maximised orb of force.

Sorry, but the monk stands very little chance, unless he does Sir_Giacomo recommends, and become a UMD monster who just teleports into the town, which is unsporting.

reorith
2007-11-04, 09:44 AM
the wizard can do it, the monk won't survive.

time stop + delayed blast fireball or wail of the banshee or any number of tools batman has in his arsenal.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-04, 09:44 AM
The monk only needs to set foot in town.

I'll say no to visiting it before, but if you have an idea that requires it, post it.


the wizard can do it, the monk won't survive.

time stop + delayed blast fireball or wail of the banshee or any number of tools batman has in his arsenal.

But the monk has great saves and evasion.


Wizard

Scry:'where is the monk?
Teleport to a bit further on along the path from the where the monk is.
Celerity; dimensional anchor, forcecage, maximised orb of force.
.

Great saves and a rod of cancellation.

Oh yes, no ridiculous cheese.

nobodylovesyou4
2007-11-04, 10:00 AM
forcecage allows no save, i think.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-04, 10:01 AM
A forcecage won't kill anyone either.

Can mindblanks block scrying?

AmberVael
2007-11-04, 10:02 AM
I'd lean more towards the Wizard winning, myself... he can get closer to the town before the monk, he can use divination on the monk, and he can trap/kill the monk before he gets there very, very easily.

I'd say drop him in a wall of force with dimension door (don't bother wasting a force cage just yet).

Once he uses his melee attack for the rod of cancellation on the force wall, then runs his 90ft (woohoo! 90ft!) you can just zap him with a cage of force /dimension lock combo and win from there. Repeat until he has no rods of cancellation left- even if he makes you cast forcecage again, rods of cancellation cost more than the material component.

And yeah, forcecages can't kill, but wizards with nigh unlimited rounds sure as hell can.

Dausuul
2007-11-04, 10:04 AM
What equipment does the monk have? What equipment does the wizard have? Does the wizard get to pick his spells specifically for this task? And what tactics are considered "cheese?" Obviously anything involving gate, polymorph, or shapechange is cheese, but different people draw the line at different points. What sourcebooks are allowed? Has the wizard ever seen the monk before?

Whatever tactic the wizard comes up with, it's possible to come up with a counter-tactic for the monk, but only if the monk has Schroedinger's Wealth By Level*. These contests generally go a lot better if the participants' capabilities are nailed down beforehand.

*That is, the monk's gear is indeterminate until the wizard casts a spell that would require the monk to have a specific item to counter it, at which point the monk is discovered to have that item.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-04, 10:05 AM
If he's running, its 450ft.

When I said cheese, I meant stuff like wishing for a candle of invocation, unlimited titans and that sort of thing.

Neon Knight
2007-11-04, 10:08 AM
If he's running, its 450ft.

But running is a full round action. A whole round you don't spend countering the wizard with your rod of cancellation.

That could be fatal.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-04, 10:31 AM
I think a better question is "How could the monk win?" rather than "Who would win?" as the latter is obvious in most situations.

Snadgeros
2007-11-04, 10:34 AM
The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Tyger
2007-11-04, 10:46 AM
As Dausuul said, more info about what both have for a) feats, b) skills, c) spells (in the case of the Wizard) and most importantly for the monk, d) equipment is needed before the contest can be really adjudicated.

In general though, that monk is going to lose. There are few things he can do to get away from a wizard of that level who's sole occupation is preventing him from reaching the town. Hell, he doesn't even have to be killed, he just has to be stopped from getting in to the town. No problem.

Could even be done with some low level illusion spells if that's all you need to do.

And even killing the monk isn't really that much of a challenge. Any of the arguments on the boards that the monk stands a chance all involve specific gear and specific skills. Which takes us back to Dausuul's original point.

End result? More info please.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 10:48 AM
Hmm.... let's see....

Can we get an actual distance, rather than a timeframe? Use of certain skills, certain magic items, and certain spells will make a significant time difference. For now, I'll assume it's the distance a monk would walk in 8 hours - 72 miles - on the shortest route.

Further assumptions:
Pure Core
Pure Monk-20
Pure Wizard-20
There's some kind of cover or concealment for a small character along the entire route.
Wizard does not know where I am initially.
I can hire spells cast beforehand, provided they have a duration over 24 hours, without giving the wizard a "head start" of any kind.


Method:
Hire an Extended Mind Blank.
Max ranks in Hide and Move Silently (+23 for both, just from that)
Play a goblin (monster manual I, it's a core source - gets a bonus to Move Silently, and is small, so gets a bonus to Hide; +4 to both; up to +27; also grants darkvision-60)
Decent dex, call it 24 (for another +7 to Hide and Move Silently; up to +34; we'll say this includes +6 Gauntlets of Dexterity, my racial bonus, and a base 16).
Stealthy Feat (another +2 Hide/Move Silently; up to +36)
Skill Focus (Hide) and Skill Focus(Move Silently) at +3 for each; up to +39 Hide/Move Silently.
Boots of Elvenkind (+5 Compentence Move Silently; up to +44) and a Robe of Blending (+10 Competence Hide, up to +49) cap off the stealth skills.
Hire a lot of castings of Extended Magic Aura before the trip, one for each magic item, so I can't be located by way of things like Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or Greater Arcane Sight; as a first-level spell (second level, with the Extend), this is pocket change for a day trip.
I'll assume, just to be nice to the Wizard, that a Helm of Teleportation is out of the question. If whoever builds the Wizard tries cheese (by my definition), the item will be in play; I set foot in the town in one standard action.
Rest of the build rather standard stuff - +5 Cloak of Resistance, +6 Peripat of Wisdom, and so on. Fairly generic boosting items. I have not included anything outside a Monk-20's Wealth By Level here. Figure minimum saves of about +23 all around (+12 base, +5 Cloak, +6 Stat; which is acheivable by way of a 16 base with a +6 stat boosting item, or an 11 base, +6 stat boosting item, and the +5 Tome/Manual) this is being conservative; it can get higher pretty easily.

I start the trip at night, hiding and moving silently all the way. Theory of this build being that you can't kill what you can't find. I'll assume the Wizard doesn't know where I am, initially. Anything involving Scrying, Discern Location, or similar fails (no roll, due to the mind blank). See Invisibility will not help you (I'm not invisible, I've just got an absurd Hide check). I'll be traveling at half-speed (so no penalty to hide). I do not take the most direct route; I take an arbitrary one. I've got 48 hours before my spells wear off, and a Forced March only deals nonlethal damage and causes fatigue. I've got 20 points of healing before dipping into any items to remove the nonlethal and with it, the fatigue, so I can pretty easily get 20-24 hours of continuous movement while Hiding, without seriously crimping combat ability later on - and at half-speed, that's 90-108 miles for having an alternative route.

Can anyone beat this, Core, with the above assumptions (and without burning down all cover or similar)?

Dausuul
2007-11-04, 10:49 AM
The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Okay, here we go.

Wizard casts discern location to find the monk (assuming he's seen the monk before; if not, he'll have to get more creative), then fly and protection from arrows. He then uses greater teleport to transport himself to a point 100 feet above the monk's location, and a greater metamagic rod of quicken to cast Mordenkainen's disjunction on the monk in the same round.

At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight. He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet.

Next round, the wizard flies 60 feet toward the monk (distance is now 390 feet horizontal, 100 feet vertical) and casts time stop. He spends the first time stopped round teleporting next to the monk, then uses the rod again for dimensional lock. The second round, he drops down to 30 feet horizontal, 40 feet vertical and uses the rod a third time to drop forcecage and Extended acid fog on the monk before the time stop wears off.

Then he just sits and waits while the monk eats a total of 80d6 points of acid damage with no saving throw and no spell resistance.

Karsh
2007-11-04, 10:50 AM
First of all, a Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) is nearly 3 times faster than the Monk, and can fly. The monk can't even outrun its Double Move if they have the run feat.

CatCameBack
2007-11-04, 10:55 AM
Mannnnnn!!!!:smallannoyed:

From the subject, I thought this thread was about some story like "MAN BITES DOG" or something....

I was misled! Let me out!


Srsly though... two spells that go a long way (unless they have changed recently) are Project Image, Imprisonment.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-04, 11:00 AM
Great saves and a rod of cancellation.

Orb of force - no SR, no save.


The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes.

Teleport to 500ft above the monk on your phantom steed. Maybe contingency:dimension door to avoid an abundant step attack.



Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step).

1/day, Snadge, 1/day.

I'm not a Tippy-esque wizard fanatic, but this is one of the strongest classes going up against one of the weakest, and playing to its strength.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 11:04 AM
Okay, here we go.

Wizard casts discern location to find the monk (assuming he's seen the monk before; if not, he'll have to get more creative), then fly and protection from arrows. He then uses greater teleport to transport himself to a point 100 feet above the monk's location, and a greater metamagic rod of quicken to cast Mordenkainen's disjunction on the monk in the same round.

At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight. He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet.

Next round, the wizard flies 60 feet toward the monk (distance is now 390 feet horizontal, 100 feet vertical) and casts time stop. He spends the first time stopped round teleporting next to the monk, then uses the rod again for dimensional lock. The second round, he drops down to 30 feet horizontal, 40 feet vertical and uses the rod a third time to drop forcecage and Extended acid fog on the monk before the time stop wears off.

Then he just sits and waits while the monk eats a total of 80d6 points of acid damage with no saving throw and no spell resistance.

Requires a couple of things:
1) You've met the monk (but that's not so bad)
2) Discern Location will work on the Monk (hired Mind Blank - and I posted first, so you can't accuse me of using the quantum monk!)
3) You can find the monk, even knowing what location he was at a round ago (what's your Spot check?)
4) The Monk fails his Will saves for his magical equipment on the Disjunction (NOT a given).
5) Monk fails his SR check vs. the Dimension Lock when he tries for an Abundant Step.

Wraithy
2007-11-04, 11:25 AM
another factor that needs to be taken into account:
how far away is the village?
if it is close enough then the monk can travel there while the wizard prepares spells. OK, overused argument, but it is still valid.
lets say the wizard had prepared his spells the night before for agriculture or whatever (it doesn't really matter its just an example), then his options are decidedly limited, the wizard and the monk are offered the challenge, so the wizard starts preparing his spells so that he can stop the monk in just a few rounds. this means that (if my calculations are right, please correct me if I'm wrong:smalleek: ) the monk can reach any village within 16 miles even if they don't run (I can't be bothered to work out the maximum distance a lvl 20 monk can travel in 8 hours). I'm not factoring in movement increase feats etc. because this relies on the fact that neither the monk nor the wizard are prepared for the situation beforehand.
honestly I think my method is the only way the monk could manage it

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-04, 11:36 AM
Oh yes, no ridiculous cheese.

a 20th level wizard kinda is, if he's put together halfway desently.

Do acid fog, when he comes out do some more dirct damage. and then do power words. Stun beat him up some more, coup de grace him, or beat him down until power word, kill works. no saves.

Kompera
2007-11-04, 11:43 AM
The Wizard has the advantage in:

Movement speed and type;
Yes, the Monk's foot speed is a very superior 90 ft assuming medium size, but the Wizard can Overland Flight 40 ft and as the crow flies may still beat foot rate on winding roads or across rugged terrain, Teleport 2000 miles, Ploymorph into a stunning array of critters with diverse and potent travel modes, Plane Shift, etc, etc.

Information Gathering;

Range and potency of attacks;

Not considering any magic items and just looking at the base classes, it seems like a home run for the Wizard. Add magic items to the mix and the discussion will probably devolve into the typical "Well, the Monk has this", "But the Wizard can have that same item. And a Wizard MADE that item!" back and forth.

Mr. Moogle
2007-11-04, 12:03 PM
The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.
YES! An exeptional example of what I've been attempting to do for a very long time.

VIVA LA MONK!

Arbitrarity
2007-11-04, 12:06 PM
If the monk is undetectable, there is an easier solution. Simply destroy the town.

I'm thinking that's easier than subduing another 20'th level character, who is outside buffed.

How about... killing off the entire population by Sympathy and a Symbol of Insanity? Or sending in a spectre, who causes the entire town to become spectres, and rasing the bodies as zombies to tear apart the town?

:smallwink:

Wraithy
2007-11-04, 12:24 PM
but the town will still be there, even if it is empty or a crator, depending on the exact wording of the challenge

skywalker
2007-11-04, 12:28 PM
At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight. It's chancy, but... max ranks in jump!

He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet. He could dimension door 800ft.

Arbitrarity, I declare your solution to be unsporting. :smallbiggrin:

I actually saw a level 13 wizard get utterly owned by a level 13 monk. The wizard was, in fact flying and invisible. Then his invisibility wore off and the monk dimension doored into him and grappled him. I'm not saying this is comparable at all to a level 20 wizard, but it is some actual(non-theoretical evidence) that points to the monk having more of a chance than some people think.

Snadgeros
2007-11-04, 12:39 PM
YES! An exeptional example of what I've been attempting to do for a very long time.

VIVA LA MONK!

Yeah, we who enjoy playing fist-fighting ninja-esque gods of movement need to stick together. Monks make excellent mage-killers. I don't care what anyone says, grapple rules aren't too complicated, I find them simple and extraordinarily useful. It completely bypasses AC and prevents spellcasting.

So what this matchup comes down to is two factors, what spells does the wizard have prepared and who wins initiative? Monks have good DEX so winning initiative is in their favor, so the wizard needs a surprise round or he's getting a face full of stunning fists. Once again, I'm going to leave the specifics of what spells to use and how to have them prepared (without cheese) up to you guys.

Goumindong
2007-11-04, 12:44 PM
The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Dimension Door. Verbal Component only[grappling stops somatic components, not verbal].

Freedom of Movement. Grapple automaticially fails

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-04, 12:50 PM
Use plane shift greater as a reach touch attack (feat, high arcane, etc.) sending the monk to a different plane. doubt he reaches that place now, exspeacialy if he is having a picnic on the negitive energy plane.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-04, 12:54 PM
Dimension Door. Verbal Component only[grappling stops somatic components, not verbal].

Freedom of Movement. Grapple automaticially fails

Mithral Buckler +1 of heavy fortification. Immunity to critical hits, immunity to stunning fist.

Extended irresistable dance while invisible, channeled through fine familiar.

Maze, to get a lot of short term buffs on.

Armar
2007-11-04, 12:56 PM
I actually saw a level 13 wizard get utterly owned by a level 13 monk. The wizard was, in fact flying and invisible. Then his invisibility wore off and the monk dimension doored into him and grappled him. I'm not saying this is comparable at all to a level 20 wizard, but it is some actual(non-theoretical evidence) that points to the monk having more of a chance than some people think.

Too bad that Dimension Door takes a standard action to use, so the monk cannot "Dimension door + Grapple" a flying wizard. If the poor monk Dimension Doors up in the air, he'd freefall the next round.

Oh, and for all those who think monks can neutralize wizards by grappling, five words: Ring of Freedom of Movement; a must for all spellcasters and costs only 40 000 gp and stops all that grappling-goodness.

Idiotbox90
2007-11-04, 01:00 PM
The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Smart wizards are invisible and flying. How does the monk grapple that?

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 01:05 PM
Yeah, we who enjoy playing fist-fighting ninja-esque gods of movement need to stick together. Monks make excellent mage-killers. I don't care what anyone says, grapple rules aren't too complicated, I find them simple and extraordinarily useful. It completely bypasses AC and prevents spellcasting.

So what this matchup comes down to is two factors, what spells does the wizard have prepared and who wins initiative? Monks have good DEX so winning initiative is in their favor, so the wizard needs a surprise round or he's getting a face full of stunning fists. Once again, I'm going to leave the specifics of what spells to use and how to have them prepared (without cheese) up to you guys.

Actually, since the Monk has to go to a certain place, the fight comes down to how the Wizard decides to kill him.

Wizard is flying on a Phantom Steed faster then the monk, 2 miles ahead of him.

Wizard has Freedom of Movement on.

Wizard doesn't care about init because he's faster and completely invulnerable.

Wizard has Anticipate Teleport up, so if Monk Abundant Steps above him he just moves out of the way and lets monk take falling damage.

Wizard throws a Orb spell every other round. (True striking just to be sure.)

Wizard has Blindsense and Telepathy 100ft and Divinations.

If Monk has Darkstalker and maxed H/MS he still wins by completely ignoring the Wizard.

If Monk UMDs Teleport he wins, but given the nature of the challenge that's cheesier then a Wizard Wishing himself infinite Candles of Invocation.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 01:55 PM
If Monk has Darkstalker and maxed H/MS he still wins by completely ignoring the Wizard.

The challenge is to get past the Wizard, not to slay the wizard; this is an exceedingly acceptable method.


If Monk UMDs Teleport he wins, but given the nature of the challenge that's cheesier then a Wizard Wishing himself infinite Candles of Invocation.
Doesn't even need UMD - there's two Core items that give Command-Word Teleport, usable three times per day.

Snadgeros
2007-11-04, 02:01 PM
There's too many variables in this fight. You guys are all stating these super-moves the wizard can pull, but we don't know what spells he has prepared, whether the monk can reach town (or close enough to dimension door into the town) in those 8 hours you're busy preparing these spells and getting these magic items you assume he has. Fine, you want to give the wizard all sorts of magic stuff? Give the monk a magic item that lets him teleport. BAM! He teleports into town, you lose.

We need to set specifics here, as in, what spells the wizard has access to, what items they each have, how far is the town, and which of the spells does the wizard actually have READY. It's easy to say that wizards can beat anything with spell combos, but this is all assuming that the wizard HAS all of these spells, components, and at the ready.

kpenguin
2007-11-04, 02:01 PM
The wizard wins unless the monk has very specialized equipment to counter whatever plan the wizard has.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-04, 02:03 PM
Wizard

Scry:'where is the monk?
Teleport to a bit further on along the path from the where the monk is.
Celerity; dimensional anchor, forcecage, maximised orb of force.

Sorry, but the monk stands very little chance, unless he does Sir_Giacomo recommends, and become a UMD monster who just teleports into the town, which is unsporting.

How the hell do you shoot someone in a forcecage with an orb of force?

LordLocke
2007-11-04, 02:03 PM
This is one of the dumber scenarios I've seen set up.

Without scenario setup cheese, the Monk has no chance. Yes, a Mind Blanked, maxed H/MS small Monk with heavy cover for the entirety of an 8-24 hour journey starting at a random point and ending at a random point the wizard has no clue about will be really, really hard to find, and take a whole lot of workarounds for the wizard.

But then again, this works for just about ANY character. Class isn't terribly important, although having Hide/MS as a class skill would make things a little easier. Replace 'Monk' with 'Rogue', 'Ranger', 'Paladin'- it doesn't terribly matter. That's not showing the Monk's good- that's showing that with a ton of preparation and an entire scenario in your favor (including hiring another extremely high-level wizard), you can stop a wizard from finding you for a short amount of time.

The whole point of the is to show that a monk could survive an encounter with a wizard long enough to get away and keep running... but the fact is, he can't. Any wizard with two Force Cages memorized can auto-trap a Monk assuming he spots the Monk twice (since the Monk's weaker Dimention Door-ish ability is 1/day), and Phantom Steed (a level 3 spell) will give the caster more mobility then the monk could dream of without- yes- a scroll of 'Phantom Steed'. From that point, you start going counter-item ("Hey, I got a Rod of Cancelation") to counter-spell ("Well fine, next round I cast Otto's Irresistible Dance then proceed to kill you at my leisure") to the point where the experiment is broken. ("Fine, I use my helm of teleport to reach my destination- I win/I teleport TO your location and raze it to the ground in the eight hours you take to get here. Now what?")

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-04, 02:04 PM
I actually saw a level 13 wizard get utterly owned by a level 13 monk. The wizard was, in fact flying and invisible. Then his invisibility wore off and the monk dimension doored into him and grappled him. I'm not saying this is comparable at all to a level 20 wizard, but it is some actual(non-theoretical evidence) that points to the monk having more of a chance than some people think.

Not being able to take any actions after dimension dooring, how was the monk able to grapple the wizard?

Snadgeros
2007-11-04, 02:09 PM
Not being able to take any actions after dimension dooring, how was the monk able to grapple the wizard?

Dimension door ABOVE him so that at you don't reach him until next turn. He'd have to make a high spot check to see you coming from above at high velocity. Either that or dimension door above him and as you fall, you'd have to pass through his space. Since you can't, you'd either end up suspended mid-air WITH him due to his flight spell or you'd take him down with you.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 02:17 PM
The challenge is to get past the Wizard, not to slay the wizard; this is an exceedingly acceptable method.

I didn't say it wasn't. I just said that Darkstalker + Maxed MS/H is an auto-win if your goal is to get from A to be B. You don't even need those skills as class skills. This is a proposition so unimportant that it isn't even worth mentioning precisely because Commoners could accomplish this same goal under those circumstances. (Technically, both the Monk and Commoner and Paladin need levels of Shadow Dancer or Assassin, or some sort of constant use of concealment.)


Doesn't even need UMD - there's two Core items that give Command-Word Teleport, usable three times per day.

Yes, but once again, if you find a method that allows any character in the game to accomplish a goal in a single standard action, and then start his only opposition two miles away, winning means nothing. Yes he can teleport, so could a hamster, so could a level one commoner. That doesn't prove anything except that the challenge needs to be redefined such that teleporting is not an option for the monk. (The no cheese qualifier pretty much does that.)


There's too many variables in this fight. You guys are all stating these super-moves the wizard can pull, but we don't know what spells he has prepared, whether the monk can reach town (or close enough to dimension door into the town) in those 8 hours you're busy preparing these spells and getting these magic items you assume he has. Fine, you want to give the wizard all sorts of magic stuff?

First, of course the challenge needs specifics, but all of them do, figuring out those specifics is usually more work then just mentally fitting in the ones you think should exist and arguing out the differences.

Second, Phantom Steed is so far the only spell mentioned that every single 20th level Batman Wizard doesn't have memorized at all times. Teleport and scrying are givens. As is Forcecage/Timestop. And Phantom Steed isn't that rare.

Thirdly, If the Wizard has to prepare spells and the Monk can get their in eight hours then of course the Monk wins. But that's pointless. A Monk (or level one Commoner) will also win if you never tell the Wizard that he is competing in a challenge. And the Monk will always lose if you never tell him that he has to get someplace.

The only fair way to do the challenge is to tell both characters what they are going to do tomorrow, then at a certain time allow the monk to start his run for city X and the Wizard to start casting scry from e few miles away.

And yes, we want to give the Wizard all sorts of magical stuff, by which we mean spells. No one has mentioned a single magic item, all we have assumed so far is that the wizard knows spells (the ones he would know at level 20) and that he has the ability to cast them (components, spellbook.)

This has the added benefit over most challenges that we haven't even had to customize the Wizard for this challenge at all. Only spells that every Wizard has memorized at level 20 and Phantom Steed have even been mentioned. We haven't even given him anything close to WBL.



We need to set specifics here, as in, what spells the wizard has access to, what items they each have, how far is the town, and which of the spells does the wizard actually have READY. It's easy to say that wizards can beat anything with spell combos, but this is all assuming that the wizard HAS all of these spells, components, and at the ready.

Okay, here you go:
1) The Wizard has access to all the spells he knows, which is to say, the spells that most every wizard has, just ask if every wizard has it, we'll let you know by general forum consensus of Wizard players. He also has access to a few spells not every Wizard knows, three by the choice of whomever is presenting the strategy.
2) The only items the Wizard has are components, focus, and spellbook.
3) The Monk has WBL, but cannot hire a Wizard to cast spells, cannot use anything the teleports or flies, cannot use a mount of any kind, cannot use UMDed items.
4) The town is however far away a Monk could get in somewhere between 4-10 hours depending on what is decided is best
5) The Wizard has ready, the spells he decided he wanted when he was informed of the challenge the day before.
6) The Monk starts at Dawn X hours from his destination. The Wizard is 2 miles behind him, but does not know this, or the name of the town the Monk is running to. He is permitted to cast spells at Dawn. (Assume negligible time difference due to earlier/later dawn.)

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-04, 02:23 PM
I didn't say it wasn't. I just said that Darkstalker + Maxed MS/H is an auto-win if your goal is to get from A to be B. You don't even need those skills as class skills. This is a proposition so unimportant that it isn't even worth mentioning precisely because Commoners could accomplish this same goal under those circumstances. (Technically, both the Monk and Commoner and Paladin need levels of Shadow Dancer or Assassin, or some sort of constant use of concealment.)



Yes, but once again, if you find a method that allows any character in the game to accomplish a goal in a single standard action, and then start his only opposition two miles away, winning means nothing. Yes he can teleport, so could a hamster, so could a level one commoner. That doesn't prove anything except that the challenge needs to be redefined such that teleporting is not an option for the monk. (The no cheese qualifier pretty much does that.)

And any spellcaster can cast spells. The wizard should only be able to win if he only casts spells of 2nd level or lower, from scrolls.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 02:44 PM
Dimension door ABOVE him so that at you don't reach him until next turn. He'd have to make a high spot check to see you coming from above at high velocity. Either that or dimension door above him and as you fall, you'd have to pass through his space. Since you can't, you'd either end up suspended mid-air WITH him due to his flight spell or you'd take him down with you.

Except that:
1) Anticipate Teleport
2) There is no reason he wouldn't see the Monk, there are no penalties to spot checks for fast moving falling people. In fact, common sense would say they are pretty easy to spot, especially if we talk about the fact that people aren't quiet when falling.
3) Monks slowfall, therefore they aren't fast falling objects, the Wizard has more time to move out of the way.
4) There is no reason for the Wizard to not use his move action to move every round anyway.
5) If someone right in front of me disappear while I'm flying in the air attacking him, the first thing I'm going to do is (assuming I don't have anticipate teleport and know he isn't appearing anywhere near me) Dimension door 100ft backwards and up. I've watched too much bad anime to not know that when someone disappears they will always end up right behind you.

You can replace DD with flying around if you are somewhat more conservative then me.


And any spellcaster can cast spells. The wizard should only be able to win if he only casts spells of 2nd level or lower, from scrolls.

The point is to make a situation in which theoretically either party could win, not one in which a CR 1/4 Kobold (that's racial HD) is as good as a lvl 20 Monk. Replace with Kobold with 20 racial HD if you were talking about the Darkstalker, H/MS system instead of teleporting.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-04, 03:02 PM
The point is to make a situation in which theoretically either party could win, not one in which a CR 1/4 Kobold (that's racial HD) is as good as a lvl 20 Monk. Replace with Kobold with 20 racial HD if you were talking about the Darkstalker, H/MS system instead of teleporting.

Why?
Why should it be set up such that the wizard must win? The monk just wants to deliver a ****ing letter.

If the scenario was the other way around; a monk had to stop a wizard from getting to the next town, would you let the wizard use teleport?

Idiotbox90
2007-11-04, 03:09 PM
I would say that Teleporting goes against the spirit of the challenge and thus should not be done by the monk. Using stealth, however, seems to be a valid example of thinking outside the box. Still, I would not consider it a victory for the monk side, although it is interesting.

Also, the monk will be unable to grapple the wizard. Between Mirror Image, concealment and invisibility spells, Dimension Door, and Contingency, a wizard is practically untouchable.

Ne0
2007-11-04, 03:14 PM
A small side note on scrying: If using greater scrying, and assuming neither of the two have ridiculous magic items, and equal stats, the monk has to throw lower than a 5 on his will save to be detected, I think.

DC= 10 + spell level + Wizard's Int = 10 + 7 + 4 = 21
Will saving throw bonus = Base + Ability bonus = 12 + 4 = 16

So it's likely the wizard fails on scrying. Of course, there's the scrying modifiers, but I'm assuming that's +0, for the sake of simplicity and fairness.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-04, 03:20 PM
How the hell do you shoot someone in a forcecage with an orb of force?

Lo, and I saw the SRD, and it was good:


Barred Cage
This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover.

All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars

Also, ^ - you can just spam the scrying. He'll lose 1 in 4 times.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 03:24 PM
If the scenario was the other way around; a monk had to stop a wizard from getting to the next town, would you let the wizard use teleport?

The only thing I would ever post under a thread so dedicated would be an insult aimed at the OP. I don't talk about challenges that don't matter. I don't ask who would win in a fight between a hog-tied Toddler and a very hungry bear locked in the same room with him.

And if the Monk wants to deliver the letter then he fails despite Darkstalker, because the Wizard teleports to town and kills the recipient.

Idiotbox90
2007-11-04, 03:25 PM
You can only cast Scrying once per 24 hours on a single subject. Instead, use Discern Location.

Chronos
2007-11-04, 03:32 PM
The whole point of the is to show that a monk could survive an encounter with a wizard long enough to get away and keep running... but the fact is, he can't.No, the whole point of this is to show that the monk can get to the town despite the wizard trying to stop em. Yes, monks are lousy in a fight, but you have to give them credit, they're exceptionally good at avoiding a fight. Saying that the monk getting to the town doesn't count, because the point was to win the encounter, is like saying that the wizard killing the monk doesn't count, because the point was being able to survive cutting out one's own spleen, and the wizard can't do that.

Nor is maxed stealth skills an "outside the box" solution, or a case of optimizing for this specific situation: Anyone who has Hide and Move Silently as class skills is going to max them, as sure as a wizard is going to learn Contingency. A lot more sure, actually, since Batman wizards are actually encouraged to ban Evocation. And anyone who does even a half-decent job of maxing stealth skills is going to pretty easily get to the point where the wizard has no chance to detect em, not even with spells, and not even on a natural 20.

Ne0
2007-11-04, 03:35 PM
That gives the monk 10 rounds of running, which means about 4500 ft. Apart from that, you also need to have seen the creature or have an item of it to locate it. The description for the task is a bit vague, but let's assume that's not the case.

And indeed, scrying can only be cast once every 24 hours.

Chronos
2007-11-04, 03:36 PM
Lo, and I saw the SRD, and it was good:Neither a Barred Cage Forcecage nor Orbs of Force will work well. A Potion of Gaseous Form costs half as much as a Forcecage, and I think it's reasonable that anyone who expects to go against a wizard will have a couple of those. And an Orb of Force requires an attack roll, and the monk has an insane touch AC (made even better by the cover bonus from the cage).

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 03:40 PM
I didn't say it wasn't. I just said that Darkstalker + Maxed MS/H is an auto-win if your goal is to get from A to be B. You don't even need those skills as class skills. This is a proposition so unimportant that it isn't even worth mentioning precisely because Commoners could accomplish this same goal under those circumstances. (Technically, both the Monk and Commoner and Paladin need levels of Shadow Dancer or Assassin, or some sort of constant use of concealment.)

Actually, this is worth mentioning.

We've got a task someone would reasonably be asked to do (stop person A from getting from point B to point C).

We've got a class that's often considered able to do without anyone else.

We've just demonstrated that this class that's often considered able to do without anyone else cannot accomplish this task if the opposition is designed intelligently towards the task - Core, even, with nothing normally called cheese involved.

The method by which person A gets from B to C does this is useful in more than just a single application.

This is worthy of note, I think.


Yes, but once again, if you find a method that allows any character in the game to accomplish a goal in a single standard action, and then start his only opposition two miles away, winning means nothing. Yes he can teleport, so could a hamster, so could a level one commoner. That doesn't prove anything except that the challenge needs to be redefined such that teleporting is not an option for the monk. (The no cheese qualifier pretty much does that.)

Yeah, in my original build I mentioned that you shouldn't use the boots/helm.

GoC
2007-11-04, 03:46 PM
A monk's Saves are roughly +23 (+12 base +5 item +6 stats).
A wizard's DCs are normaly 33 (10 base +14 Int +9 spell level).
38 Int is from 16 base +2 grey elf +5 tome +5 levels +6 Item +4 age

Assuming the wizard can find the monk all he has to do is use a couple of Celerities and Timestops to create a couple of prismatic walls behind the monk and a couple summoned monsters or crushing hands to bullrush the monk into the walls.
That should kill him 90% of the time.

Or just use four crushing hands to grapple him to death (+50 on check so the monk can only escape with his 1/day Abundant step).

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 03:58 PM
We've got a task someone would reasonably be asked to do (stop person A from getting from point B to point C).

We've got a class that's often considered able to do without anyone else.

We've just demonstrated that this class that's often considered able to do without anyone else cannot accomplish this task if the opposition is designed intelligently towards the task - Core, even, with nothing normally called cheese involved.

There are two problems with your assumption.

First, Core. Monk Core loses. Without Darkstalker H/MS is useless against a Wizard. Blindsense and assorted other methods all allow location.

Secondly, A truly optimized H/MS character does not prove that a Wizard needs help. No character can ever spot said character, only a level of Mindbender and an obscure feat. As such Wizard is still the only one with a shot. An optimized hider proves only that an optimized hider can get from A to B, and that no one can stop him.

Ne0
2007-11-04, 04:03 PM
A monk's Saves are roughly +23 (+12 base +5 item +6 stats).
A wizard's DCs are normaly 33 (10 base +14 Int +9 spell level).
38 Int is from 16 base +2 grey elf
Assuming the wizard can find the monk all he has to do is use a couple of Celerities and Timestops to create a couple of prismatic walls behind the monk and a couple summoned monsters or crushing hands to bullrush the monk into the walls.
That should kill him 90% of the time.

Or just use four crushing hands to grapple him to death (+50 on check so the monk can only escape with his 1/day Abundant step).


I think, if you let the wizard buff his INT bonus to +14, you should allow the monk to do so as well. And the spell level varies per spell, remember?

Read my posts above on the matter of finding the monk.
And a grey elf? You mean EVEN LESS constitution? :smallannoyed:

Also, the monks excellent save can allow him to travel through the prismatic walls most of the time without any harm. And it is affected by the monks SR 30

Crushing hand can also be negated by SR.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-04, 04:05 PM
Neither a Barred Cage Forcecage nor Orbs of Force will work well. A Potion of Gaseous Form costs half as much as a Forcecage, and I think it's reasonable that anyone who expects to go against a wizard will have a couple of those. And an Orb of Force requires an attack roll, and the monk has an insane touch AC (made even better by the cover bonus from the cage).

OK, but if you go into gaseous form, you've taken our all your (Su) abilities for the duration. Bye-bye, Wis to AC. Orb of force!

Ne0
2007-11-04, 04:08 PM
OK, but if you go into gaseous form, you've taken our all your (Su) abilities for the duration. Bye-bye, Wis to AC. Orb of force!

But a Monk's AC bonus is an (Ex) ability. :smallconfused:

Snadgeros
2007-11-04, 04:12 PM
Except that:
1) Anticipate Teleport
2) There is no reason he wouldn't see the Monk, there are no penalties to spot checks for fast moving falling people. In fact, common sense would say they are pretty easy to spot, especially if we talk about the fact that people aren't quiet when falling.
3) Monks slowfall, therefore they aren't fast falling objects, the Wizard has more time to move out of the way.
4) There is no reason for the Wizard to not use his move action to move every round anyway.
5) If someone right in front of me disappear while I'm flying in the air attacking him, the first thing I'm going to do is (assuming I don't have anticipate teleport and know he isn't appearing anywhere near me) Dimension door 100ft backwards and up. I've watched too much bad anime to not know that when someone disappears they will always end up right behind you.

Umm....no they don't. That was wrong on MANY levels. Monks only slowfall if they are adjacent to a wall. The idea is that they're jamming their arm up against the wall, creating friction, and thereby slowing themselves. Therefore, even if there WAS a wall adjacent to this wizard for some strange reason, he can just choose not to slowfall.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 04:30 PM
There are two problems with your assumption.

First, Core. Monk Core loses. Without Darkstalker H/MS is useless against a Wizard. Blindsense and assorted other methods all allow location.

How are you getting blindsense or Blindsight in such a range that the Monk cannot Abundant Step the final distance, Core? He's got an 800 foot range for that. Also, keep in mind that the goal is a village, not a particular point there in. You've got a very large area to cover. You do not know what direction he is specifically coming from, so you must:

1) Locate where he's going to end up (or where he will be located when you intercept)
2) Deal with him before he can get away.

If the Monk can arrange for a Mind Blank, you basically can't do 1.


Secondly, A truly optimized H/MS character does not prove that a Wizard needs help. No character can ever spot said character, only a level of Mindbender and an obscure feat. As such Wizard is still the only one with a shot. An optimized hider proves only that an optimized hider can get from A to B, and that no one can stop him.
Actually, you can optimize for Spot, too.

Suppose I take a Druid-20, give him a Wis of 32 (just like the Wizard gets an Int of 34, but minus the racial bonus), a Robe of Eyes (+10 Competence to Spot) Skill Focus (Spot), and Alertness. That's a spot modifier of: +23 (ranks) +11 (Wis) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Alertness) +10 (Robe of Eyes) = +49. I'd say he's got a sporting chance to spot the Hide monkey with a modifier of +49 or so, wouldn't you?



3) The Monk has WBL, but cannot hire a Wizard to cast spells, cannot use anything the teleports or flies, cannot use a mount of any kind, cannot use UMDed items.
This is the biggest part that ruins the Monk's chances. Even a Core Wizard gets no-save, no-SR methods by which to locate someone (Arcane Sight and Discern Location come to mind). There's Core counters (Magic Aura and Mind Blank), but they require a Full Caster or UMD and items.

Well, unless the Monk takes Leadership and has a Wizard or Sorcerer (or, with the right domains, Cleric) Cohort to cast the spells designed to counter magical locating techniques....

Ne0
2007-11-04, 04:33 PM
Except that:
1) Anticipate Teleport
2) There is no reason he wouldn't see the Monk, there are no penalties to spot checks for fast moving falling people. In fact, common sense would say they are pretty easy to spot, especially if we talk about the fact that people aren't quiet when falling.
3) Monks slowfall, therefore they aren't fast falling objects, the Wizard has more time to move out of the way.
4) There is no reason for the Wizard to not use his move action to move every round anyway.
5) If someone right in front of me disappear while I'm flying in the air attacking him, the first thing I'm going to do is (assuming I don't have anticipate teleport and know he isn't appearing anywhere near me) Dimension door 100ft backwards and up. I've watched too much bad anime to not know that when someone disappears they will always end up right behind you.


Other notes on Kaelik:
1) Uh? Where's that in the SRD? And whatever it is, I doubt a wizard would be expecting this strategy, and ready his spells for this.
2) As in 1, the wizard isn't expecting this strategy. Plus, I think a 20th level monk has some self-control, especially if he was planning to fall.
3) See Snadgero's post
4) Dimension door's a standard action, so the monk can still attack, right? Not sure if you can grapple him in time, though...
5) Please stay in-character. :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 04:37 PM
Umm....no they don't. That was wrong on MANY levels. Monks only slowfall if they are adjacent to a wall. The idea is that they're jamming their arm up against the wall, creating friction, and thereby slowing themselves. Therefore, even if there WAS a wall adjacent to this wizard for some strange reason, he can just choose not to slowfall.

Okay, I wasn't aware there was crappy limitation on the Monks crappy ability.

Please take note of the four other points.

EDIT: Thank you Neo.

1) Uh? Where's that in the SRD? And whatever it is, I doubt a wizard would be expecting this strategy, and ready his spells for this.

A) It isn't in the SRD, but we are talking about D&D, and it is in official non-campaign setting WotC published 3.5 material. And it something that every Wizard has active anytime that they expect combat with someone capable of teleporting.
B) A flying Wizard knows that he will face a non-flying opponent who can teleport. Therefore he will not expect the character to teleport? That's not a 32 Int wizard, that's a 6 Int wizard, in which case the Monk wins because the Wizard is too stupid to cast spells.


2) As in 1, the wizard isn't expecting this strategy. Plus, I think a 20th level monk has some self-control, especially if he was planning to fall.

I'm sure he does have self-control, but a Wizard is definitely expecting this strategy. Especially if he watches you teleport. He will expect you to try to teleport to reach him. In addition, the correct response when your round comes up is I take a Standard action to look around me. Oh look, Monk, move action get out of the way.


4) Dimension door's a standard action, so the monk can still attack, right? Not sure if you can grapple him in time, though...

Dimension door is a standard action, attacking is a standard action. No the Monk can not attack. In addition, DD specifically states that you can perform no other actions after using it. In addition:

Monk: I DD right above him
Wizard: I float there laughing.
Choice 1 Monk: I grapple.
Wizard: I am immune thanks to Freedom of Movement.
Choice 2 Monk: I attack on my way falling past him (ignore possible modifiers or the fact that according to a strict reading of the rules he can't make his actions except before he starts falling and after he finishes (thus preventing him from attacking from above the Wizard.))
Wizard: I laugh at his pitiful attack and then go back to killing him.


5) Please stay in-character. :smalltongue:

Wizards deal with teleporting every day. They know what it is used for. They know how to respond to it.

Rad
2007-11-04, 04:50 PM
I think, if you let the wizard buff his INT bonus to +14, you should allow the monk to do so as well. And the spell level varies per spell, remember?
Wizard has an easy time boosting his Int only; the monk has to deal with limited points to put in four different stats (so no starting with 18 in all them) and likewise getting ultimate boosts to four stats is eating some relevant share of his WBL.


Read my posts above on the matter of finding the monk.
And a grey elf? You mean EVEN LESS constitution? :smallannoyed:
well, yes. +1 is not going to make his Fort save change much from what it is and his HP are few anyways... Wizards rely on not getting hit in the first place.


Also, the monks excellent save can allow him to travel through the prismatic walls most of the time without any harm. And it is affected by the monks SR 30
That's seven saving throws. If we take the estimation of a 33 DC and a +23 save that means that chances of making all the seven saves is one in 128. Even the chance of getting through the four save-or-lose effects (assuming the monk can tank the damage from the first three layers) is 1/16; not impenetrable but not great for the monk...

As for the SR, there are feats that make that moot, such as the one that allows to take 10 on caster levels; then there is Assay Spell Resistance that is a swift action (although maybe not usable for a prismatic sphere; I should check that.) Supposing the wizard has neither, no spell penetration and no caster level increases there is still a 55% chance that the spell resistance will fail and you have to repeat this check seven times.

Chance of the monk to pass:
(1-(55%*50%))^7=10.52%
not that impressive.

Also I do not get how getting past a prismatic sphere is related to the contest; my opinion is that the Monk wins with the hiding tactic outlined earlier.


Crushing hand can also be negated by SR.

Again, if the wizard did nothing to improve his CL check, that's only working 45% of the times.

Vva70
2007-11-04, 05:03 PM
This challenge seems to have taken every effort to give the monk a chance to win against a wizard at something. And it has been demonstrated that a monk can win, but only if he:

A) Uses tactics that are not dependent on his being a monk in the first place (H/MS optimization).

or

B) Uses tactics that would normally be perfectly legitimate except that they negate the purpose of this challenge (boots of teleportation).

More to the point, what has been shown is that all of the tactics to which a monk is uniquely suited have counters that a wizard who is not specially prepared for such a challenge may be reasonably presumed to have. High saves and SR can be defeated by spells that do not allow saves or SR (forcecage, orbs, acid fog, etc.). Abundant step can be shut down by dimensional anchor/dimensional lock (with assay resistance or some such measure to bypass SR), or simply avoided as it is 1/day. Grappling can be dodged via freedom of movement. A monk's speed is no match for a phantom steed. There are ways for a monk to complete this challenge but none rely on monk specific abilities.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 05:05 PM
How are you getting blindsense or Blindsight in such a range that the Monk cannot Abundant Step the final distance, Core? He's got an 800 foot range for that. Also, keep in mind that the goal is a village, not a particular point there in. You've got a very large area to cover. You do not know what direction he is specifically coming from, so you must:

I'm sorry, let me clarify. When someone else claims they can do X Core. I do not take there Core limit to apply to myself. Say what you want about how unfair that is, but I am talking about a real DnD Wizard, which includes other abilities outside of Core. Every time someone says my Core can beat your X I don't let my X be Core. If you are going to claim something in the absolute then you should get to limit your opponent to whatever books you want.


1) Locate where he's going to end up (or where he will be located when you intercept)
2) Deal with him before he can get away.

If the Monk can arrange for a Mind Blank, you basically can't do 1.

If a Kobold can get Mind Blank he can win this challenge. The Wizard has no idea where you are going, he's entirely reliant on being able to figure that out.


Suppose I take a Druid-20, give him a Wis of 32 (just like the Wizard gets an Int of 34, but minus the racial bonus), a Robe of Eyes (+10 Competence to Spot) Skill Focus (Spot), and Alertness. That's a spot modifier of: +23 (ranks) +11 (Wis) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Alertness) +10 (Robe of Eyes) = +49. I'd say he's got a sporting chance to spot the Hide monkey with a modifier of +49 or so, wouldn't you?

Only if you ignore circumstantial modifiers such as distance/total cover. The problem is that you can't find out where he is. By the way, Quick Reconnoiter could help your build.


This is the biggest part that ruins the Monk's chances. Even a Core Wizard gets no-save, no-SR methods by which to locate someone (Arcane Sight and Discern Location come to mind). There's Core counters (Magic Aura and Mind Blank), but they require a Full Caster or UMD and items.

We know Full Casters can hide from Full Casters, but Monks can't. That limitation only exists to make this a competition between a Monk and a caster, instead of a two year old child that a caster chooses to send on a errand, and a caster.


Well, unless the Monk takes Leadership and has a Wizard or Sorcerer (or, with the right domains, Cleric) Cohort to cast the spells designed to counter magical locating techniques....

Oh right, new rule. No Leadership for anyone because it is the most retarded feat in the game.

Ne0
2007-11-04, 05:10 PM
Monk: I DD right above him
Wizard: I float there laughing.
Choice 1 Monk: I grapple.
Wizard: I am immune thanks to Freedom of Movement.
Choice 2 Monk: I attack on my way falling past him (ignore possible modifiers or the fact that according to a strict reading of the rules he can't make his actions except before he starts falling and after he finishes (thus preventing him from attacking from above the Wizard.))
Wizard: I laugh at his pitiful attack and then go back to killing him.

We can keep bickering on endlessly about how wizard's think and all that, but since it's sure that the monk will be able to place an attack within his DD turn - not necesssarily from above the wizard -, and because we're making ridiculous mocking conversations of the other class, I'll just continue that quote.

Monk: Oh dear, did I forget to specify that the last attack was a quivering palm one? Sorry, can we change that?
DM: *sigh* Alright then.
Monk: Then I think I'll choose to activate it's effect right now, as a free action. So that's a 27 DC Fortitude save. Make your roll.
Wizard: Uh...19...
Monk: Alas, roll new character.

Laurellien
2007-11-04, 05:19 PM
The point is to stop the mook - I mean monk ever stepping in the town.

Now to think outside the box.

The wizard uses his vast array of settlement levelling spells (see locate city with some metamagic aa level 4 total) and utterly annihilates the city, leaving a huge crater. He then uses stone shape/mud to rock/rock to mud/ to cover up the fact that there was ever a settlement there. Thus there is no settlement left, and the monk can't win.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 05:20 PM
We can keep bickering on endlessly about how wizard's think and all that, but since it's sure that the monk will be able to place an attack within his DD turn - not necesssarily from above the wizard -, and because we're making ridiculous mocking conversations of the other class, I'll just continue that quote.

Monk: Oh dear, did I forget to specify that the last attack was a quivering palm one? Sorry, can we change that?
DM: *sigh* Alright then.
Monk: Then I think I'll choose to activate it's effect right now, as a free action. So that's a 27 DC Fortitude save. Make your roll.
Wizard: Uh...19...
Monk: Alas, roll new character.

A) He absolutely cannot place an attack during his Dimension Door turn. DD specifically states that after using it you can take exactly 0 actions of any kind.
B) Are we dealing with another one of those 6 Int Wizards who never cast spells on themselves? Or are we dealing with the 32 Int ones that have Elemental Body up all day every day because it has a duration of hours per level? Oh the latter? I guess I'm immune to stunning fist and quivering palm anyway. And don't say that I'm customizing this Wizard. I have specifically stated in previous threads that all my high level Wizards have Elemental Body up all day every day.
C) you are very bad at understanding saves, a level 20 Wizard has a minimum +8 and usually more around +14, so that 19 works out to living.

I'm not even going to bring up Necropolitian in this thread, the poor Monk is already incapable of hurting the Wizard, no reason to rub it in.

Chronos
2007-11-04, 05:34 PM
There are ways for a monk to complete this challenge but none rely on monk specific abilities.So what other class moves 90' a round and has Hide and Move Silently as class skills? Sure, the fast speed isn't strictly necessary for the courrier mission, but it helps a lot.


I'm sorry, let me clarify. When someone else claims they can do X Core. I do not take there Core limit to apply to myself.So in other words, a wizard can win if he uses more books than the other guy. True, but unimpressive. If you're going to be arguing for the wizard's superiority, you need to show that he's superior in a significant range of common circumstances, and "core only" is an extremely common circumstance in D&D. There's no requirement that every player must have all books ever published, and in fact, most don't.

The Glyphstone
2007-11-04, 05:49 PM
Monk: Oh dear, did I forget to specify that the last attack was a quivering palm one? Sorry, can we change that?
DM: *sigh* Alright then.
Monk: Then I think I'll choose to activate it's effect right now, as a free action. So that's a 27 DC Fortitude save. Make your roll.
Wizard: Uh...19...
Monk: Alas, roll new character.


Sorry for interrupting, but how does giving the monk DM-favor bias help the argument? Qp specifically requires that it be declared before the attack roll...

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 06:07 PM
I'm sorry, let me clarify. When someone else claims they can do X Core. I do not take there Core limit to apply to myself. Say what you want about how unfair that is, but I am talking about a real DnD Wizard, which includes other abilities outside of Core. Every time someone says my Core can beat your X I don't let my X be Core. If you are going to claim something in the absolute then you should get to limit your opponent to whatever books you want.

If you use every WOTC splatbook there is, you can do anything (Literally!) with a Human Paladin-1 (ex-Paladin, by the time you're done ... not that it matters anymore). The Wizard-20 has no issues starting that loop... but we need to avoid cheese.

Besides - even non-core, how are you getting Blindsense in excess of 800 feet without something that qualifies as "cheese"? You need to cover the entire village, and 800 feet around it, and have something to react such that the Monk does not get an action to arrive at the destination.

But, if you want to cheese it up with not-so-balanced splatbooks, there's no particular reason for me to keep it Core - just toss in Darkstalker, the Third Eye Conceal (from the XPH - it's also in the SRD, if you're interested), and something to give constant concealment (shouldn't be that hard to find - Cloak Dance, maybe; I'm sure there's a constant Blurr item somewhere, which would do, technically).


If a Kobold can get Mind Blank he can win this challenge. The Wizard has no idea where you are going, he's entirely reliant on being able to figure that out.

Ah, you'll want to ban the XPH, then, as it's got an item (Third Eye Conceal) that does the job of giving Mind Blank to whoever wears it... which you've admitted completely ruins the Wizard's chances of winning.


Only if you ignore circumstantial modifiers such as distance/total cover. The problem is that you can't find out where he is. By the way, Quick Reconnoiter could help your build.
If you have Total Cover, there's no need for a Hide check at all - and not even Blindsense will help, as it requires Line of Effect.


We know Full Casters can hide from Full Casters, but Monks can't. That limitation only exists to make this a competition between a Monk and a caster, instead of a two year old child that a caster chooses to send on a errand, and a caster.

Oh right, new rule. No Leadership for anyone because it is the most retarded feat in the game.
Okay, so by your own admission, we're up to, what, five things that you must ban in order for the Wizard to stand a chance:
1) Purchasing spells from other casters
2) Third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank)
3) Cross-class UMD and scrolls/wands.
4) Leadership.
5) Teleport.

... and for some odd reason, you get to arbitrarily throw limits out whenever you feel like it?

I'm sorry, when you have to start throwing out arbitrary limitations of your own design on your opponent, but not particularly accepting limitations from your opponent, you've kinda lost.

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 06:10 PM
So in other words, a wizard can win if he uses more books than the other guy. True, but unimpressive. If you're going to be arguing for the wizard's superiority, you need to show that he's superior in a significant range of common circumstances, and "core only" is an extremely common circumstance in D&D. There's no requirement that every player must have all books ever published, and in fact, most don't.

No, a Wizard is superior across a wide range of circumstances when using comparable levels of supplements. That a core Wizard does not have Blindsense 200ft and therefore someone can sneak past him (but never hurt him) is not something that I see as a problem.

I discussed a specific strategy that I would use under the rules of the challenge. Someone else claimed they could beat my strategy Core. I said they needed a feat from a non-core book. That my strategy can be beat when vital components are removed is not in question. Under those circumstances I would use a different strategy.

No where did I say that H/MS was a bad strategy for the Monk. In my very first post I said that H/MS + Darkstalker would win. But I also said that the same was true of an all Racial HD Kobold (in fact, even more so.) As such I did not bother to discuss Darkstalker anymore, except to defend my notion that it is a strategy that does not require Monks at all.

If the purpose was to convey a message to the other town a Pixie with a single racial HD and the Darkstalker Feat is better then a lvl 20 Monk, and cheaper too. Teleportation would also be better, as would hiring a Wizards to Phantom Steed.

I believe the purpose of the challenge is to see if a Monk could move from point A to point B while dealing with an encounter with a Wizard. The answer is no. Yes you can use strategies that allow for not encountering the Wizard. But if you do so, then all you have proven is that if they encounter no one a lvl 20 Monk can move from point A to point B. That is true of every character in the game.

If the monk ran very fast, and when the Wizard Forcecaged him, he escaped by Abundant Step and continued running in order to get there, that would be an example of encountering the Wizard and still completing his objective. But that is not possible because the Wizard is faster, if the Wizard sees the Monk, the Monk loses. That would seem to indicate that if the Monk has a greater then 0% chance of being stopped then he will be.

Laurellien
2007-11-04, 06:19 PM
I still have yet to see anybody answer my argument. Do I win?

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 06:21 PM
Besides - even non-core, how are you getting Blindsense in excess of 800 feet without something that qualifies as "cheese"? You need to cover the entire village, and 800 feet around it, and have something to react such that the Monk does not get an action to arrive at the destination.

You don't need 800ft, you need 200ft and (the spell blindsense from the SpC) and various divinations that allow you to find where he is and teleport there.


But, if you want to cheese it up with not-so-balanced splatbooks, there's no particular reason for me to keep it Core - just toss in Darkstalker, the Third Eye Conceal (from the XPH - it's also in the SRD, if you're interested), and something to give constant concealment (shouldn't be that hard to find - Cloak Dance, maybe; I'm sure there's a constant Blurr item somewhere, which would do, technically).

I addressed this. I realize that anyone can avoid anyone else if they try hard enough in DnD. Defense just wins sometimes. But that isn't something worth talking about since anyone can do that and we already know that.


Ah, you'll want to ban the XPH, then, as it's got an item (Third Eye Conceal) that does the job of giving Mind Blank to whoever wears it... which you've admitted completely ruins the Wizard's chances of winning.

I don't want to ban XPH, firstly because if I was going to ban something I would just ban the item, and secondly because I don't ban things, I just don't discuss certain concepts that aren't worth discussing.


If you have Total Cover, there's no need for a Hide check at all - and not even Blindsense will help, as it requires Line of Effect.

But a Wizard can find people, a Druid cannot.


Okay, so by your own admission, we're up to, what, five things that you must ban in order for the Wizard to stand a chance:
1) Purchasing spells from other casters
2) Third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank)
3) Cross-class UMD and scrolls/wands.
4) Leadership.
5) Teleport.

... and for some odd reason, you get to arbitrarily throw limits out whenever you feel like it?

No, we are up to five things that need to be ignored for this to a worthwhile challenge. Because sometimes it is worth discussing the spirit of a challenge instead of finding the eight hundred loop-holes. Technically he didn't say you couldn't take levels of Paladin, why don't you explain in great detail how Pun-Pun could beat this challenge?

I am throwing out limits on what I want to discuss, because every five year old knows that teleportation can get you where you want to go. No question, just BAMF!

Idiotbox90
2007-11-04, 06:22 PM
May I ask what the paladin trick is?

Kaelik
2007-11-04, 06:24 PM
I still have yet to see anybody answer my argument. Do I win?

No, because there was no clarification, so the Monk showing up on a pile of rubble is exactly the same as winning.

Also, he just teleported there using a helm/UMD.

Also he's actually just Pun-Pun, he gave himself the (Ex) ability Monk, it reads like this.

Monk(Ex): Pun-Pun is considered a "Monk" for all things ever. He wins all challenges presented for Monks, even impossible ones. He is a square circle.

Laurellien
2007-11-04, 06:40 PM
So I win if we discount Pun-Pun.

I agree with Kaelik's limitations on the monk, as the only ways presented so far are to rely on other characters for magic lewt for the monk. I say that we should slap him with a vow of poverty and have done with it.

Also, it wouldn't be a pile of rubble, it would be a huge, filled in crater with no trace of a city.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-04, 06:51 PM
Sorry for interrupting, but how does giving the monk DM-favor bias help the argument?
Because that's the only way the monk will win the challenge :smalltongue:



Okay, so by your own admission, we're up to, what, five things that you must ban in order for the Wizard to stand a chance:
1) Purchasing spells from other casters
2) Third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank)
3) Cross-class UMD and scrolls/wands.
4) Leadership.
5) Teleport.

Actually that's quite reasonable. If you go for purchasing spells or leadership, then it's not actually the monk winning the challenge, but the spellcaster you're purchasing from, or the cohort. In both cases, this means that every single other class can do the same, and most classes actually do it better than the monk. If you're UMD'ing, you're again doing something that's not monkish, but that every single other class can do better than the monk.

As for teleport, as Calvin and Hobbes said, "if you're as long as the pool, swimming a lap in zero seconds is not a record". It renders the whole challenge moot - similar to if the monk starts in the village, or half an inch away, or something like that. If the challenge equates to nothing, then you have proven nothing.

If the challenge is "can a monk beat a wizard", then you have to use some strategy that a 20th-level commoner cannot use, otherwise you're not proving anything about the monk.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 06:56 PM
May I ask what the paladin trick is?
Run a search for it on the Wizards Optimization forums for the details. It's somewhere around page 40 in the Pun-Pun thread. Basically amounts to pumping a Knoweledge check to know about a particular named demon, it's abilities and habits, then using that to initiate an infinite Wish loop, retraining a feat, then initiating the basic pun-pun loop.


You don't need 800ft, you need 200ft and (the spell blindsense from the SpC) and various divinations that allow you to find where he is and teleport there.
Ah, right - if you can no-save locate him, he loses. Agreed. In order to make it a challenge for the Wizard, we need to remove this aspect.

It goes both ways.


I addressed this. I realize that anyone can avoid anyone else if they try hard enough in DnD. Defense just wins sometimes. But that isn't something worth talking about since anyone can do that and we already know that.

Actually, it's generally said that playing defense is a losing game in ... well, just about anything, really; an attacker has some major advantages, in general.

And not everyone can do it well - If Hide/Move Silently is not a class skill, you're sharply limited for when working against someone for whom Spot/Listen is a class skill. If it's so overwhelmingly good that the commoner-20 with cross-class ranks in Hide/Move Silently gets by, why aren't you bothering with a Wizard who maximizes Spot by way of a Hawk/Owl/Bat familiar, Skill Focus(Spot)/Listen, cross-class ranks, a decent and slightly pumped Wisdom, and items/spells to increase the skill?

Seriously, with a bit of work, you CAN build a Wizard that's far from blind. It's not hard.


I don't want to ban XPH, firstly because if I was going to ban something I would just ban the item, and secondly because I don't ban things, I just don't discuss certain concepts that aren't worth discussing.
Shrug. There's counters to your no-save locating. Monk's located, and you've got all sources, then monk's dead. Your no-save locating of the Monk is no longer worth discussing, by your own words. In order to make it a "challenge" we need to remove that aspect.


But a Wizard can find people, a Druid cannot.

Druid gets Scrying and it's Greater version (for less cost than the Wizard, even). Check the 3.5 PHB, pages 274 and 275 (at least, in the specific printing I've got on hand).


No, we are up to five things that need to be ignored for this to a worthwhile challenge.
Amounts to the same thing, really.

Because sometimes it is worth discussing the spirit of a challenge instead of finding the eight hundred loop-holes. Technically he didn't say you couldn't take levels of Paladin, why don't you explain in great detail how Pun-Pun could beat this challenge?

You're using loopholes. Why do you keep doing so, then chastising me for them?

Basically, though, you have a keystone (locating the Monk by way of Divinations) that can be blocked with a couple of different methods.

You have a second keystone, in that your Wizard must be able to pop around at will, while the Monk cannot (despite the Monk having a few different methods by which this can be accomplished).

If either of those keystones is removed, the Wizard cannot stop the Monk. There are methods available to the monk of doing both.



I am throwing out limits on what I want to discuss, because every five year old knows that teleportation can get you where you want to go. No question, just BAMF!
Right - you only want to discuss ways the Wizard can win.


Because that's the only way the monk will win the challenge :smalltongue:

No, those extra limits are the only way the Wizard will win the challenge. :smalltongue:



Actually that's quite reasonable. If you go for purchasing spells or leadership, then it's not actually the monk winning the challenge, but the spellcaster you're purchasing from, or the cohort. In both cases, this means that every single other class can do the same, and most classes actually do it better than the monk. If you're UMD'ing, you're again doing something that's not monkish, but that every single other class can do better than the monk.

Right. So we're just poking fun at the poor old Wizard who's class features can be duplicated in specific instances by anyone at the expense of extra money.

How's that a problem, considering that it's generally the other way around?

I don't agree (except in limited circumstances, used as turnarounds to vainly attempt to get another to see the error of their ways) - those five limits are not reasonable.


As for teleport, as Calvin and Hobbes said, "if you're as long as the pool, swimming a lap in zero seconds is not a record". It renders the whole challenge moot - similar to if the monk starts in the village, or half an inch away, or something like that. If the challenge equates to nothing, then you have proven nothing.

If the challenge is "can a monk beat a wizard", then you have to use some strategy that a 20th-level commoner cannot use, otherwise you're not proving anything about the monk.
Fortunately, that's not the challenge.

Laurellien
2007-11-04, 07:01 PM
The city levelling argument still hasn't been answered. Does the CE mage win?

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 07:12 PM
The city levelling argument still hasn't been answered. Does the CE mage win?
Yes, but only in the same sense that the Monk with Teleport also wins. As in, it doesn't actually mean anything at all.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-04, 07:28 PM
Run a search for it on the Wizards Optimization forums for the details. It's somewhere around page 40 in the Pun-Pun thread. Basically amounts to pumping a Knoweledge check to know about a particular named demon, it's abilities and habits, then using that to initiate an infinite Wish loop, retraining a feat, then initiating the basic pun-pun loop.


Ah, right - if you can no-save locate him, he loses. Agreed. In order to make it a challenge for the Wizard, we need to remove this aspect.

It goes both ways.

Actually, it's generally said that playing defense is a losing game in ... well, just about anything, really; an attacker has some major advantages, in general.

And not everyone can do it well - If Hide/Move Silently is not a class skill, you're sharply limited for when working against someone for whom Spot/Listen is a class skill. If it's so overwhelmingly good that the commoner-20 with cross-class ranks in Hide/Move Silently gets by, why aren't you bothering with a Wizard who maximizes Spot by way of a Hawk/Owl/Bat familiar, Skill Focus(Spot)/Listen, cross-class ranks, a decent and slightly pumped Wisdom, and items/spells to increase the skill?

Seriously, with a bit of work, you CAN build a Wizard that's far from blind. It's not hard.

Shrug. There's counters to your no-save locating. Monk's located, and you've got all sources, then monk's dead. Your no-save locating of the Monk is no longer worth discussing, by your own words. In order to make it a "challenge" we need to remove that aspect.

Druid gets Scrying and it's Greater version (for less cost than the Wizard, even). Check the 3.5 PHB, pages 274 and 275 (at least, in the specific printing I've got on hand).

Amounts to the same thing, really.

You're using loopholes. Why do you keep doing so, then chastising me for them?

Basically, though, you have a keystone (locating the Monk by way of Divinations) that can be blocked with a couple of different methods.

You have a second keystone, in that your Wizard must be able to pop around at will, while the Monk cannot (despite the Monk having a few different methods by which this can be accomplished).

If either of those keystones is removed, the Wizard cannot stop the Monk. There are methods available to the monk of doing both.


Right - you only want to discuss ways the Wizard can win.


No, those extra limits are the only way the Wizard will win the challenge. :smalltongue:

Right. So we're just poking fun at the poor old Wizard who's class features can be duplicated in specific instances by anyone at the expense of extra money.

How's that a problem, considering that it's generally the other way around?

I don't agree (except in limited circumstances, used as turnarounds to vainly attempt to get another to see the error of their ways) - those five limits are not reasonable.

Fortunately, that's not the challenge.

If the Monk wants to prove anything they need to use monk abilities, as has already been said. The wizards abilities is casting spells, this is what they do, this is why they are good, this is why they get to cast and monks don't. If the monk relies on magical gizmos and spellcasting lackies, ie teleport items, cohorts, UMD, etc.... then they effectively prove that they can simulate the abilities of a wizard by spending a lot of money or hireing a guy. When your whole stratergy relies on always having an 8th level wizard spell running in order to not be found and smashed, or using a teleport effect to bypass the whole challenge then you prove that the wizard wins, you need his abilities to be of any use in this.

Monks using MS/H and Darkstalker wins, without using Monk abilities.
Monks using spellcasters for hire or items that duplicate spellcasters for hire wins and proves nothing at all.
Monks that try to rely on Monk abilities beyound fast stealth and cheesey feats die... always.
Monks outside convoluted scenarios xpressly designed to favour them and hobble their opponents lose.... most of the time.

This is not to say that monks aren't fun, and can't be used in combat or as part of a party, just that they are mechanically weaker than most everything else and should be played as such.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 07:35 PM
If the Monk wants to prove anything they need to use monk abilities, as has already been said.Fortunately, I'm more interested in demonstrating that a Wizard does indeed have limits, and can be defeated, especially when the goal is not specifically about the death of one or the other.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-04, 07:39 PM
Fortunately, I'm more interested in demonstrating that a Wizard does indeed have limits, and can be defeated, especially when the goal is not specifically about the death of one or the other.

Fair enough. then you're good on most points. It's not what I thought the thread was concerned with but I could be wrong, there's been more than enough different posters to cover halve a dozen topics. The wizard being infallible and unkillable and unstoppable and unopposable isn't what I was arguing, and i don't think they are, and if they were they would just suck enormously. So I guess we'll just have to agree to agree and leave it at that.:smallsmile: :smalltongue:

Laurellien
2007-11-04, 07:43 PM
Oh yes it does, I am preventing the monk from setting foot in the town purely without recourse to the use of another class.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-04, 08:05 PM
Oh yes it does, I am preventing the monk from setting foot in the town purely without recourse to the use of another class.Yes, and the Monk that uses a Helm of Teleportation out of his Wealth By Level to get there in one standard action (before you can finish destroying the town) is also setting foot in town before you can do anything about it.

It amounts to the same thing.

Or, perhaps, there's some reason for the exercise - perhaps the Wizard needs to curry favor from someone in the town, and the existence of the Monk in the town is proof that the Wizard's a liar (and gets rid of the favor the Wizard was trying to get). In which case, the Wizard must intercept the monk before the Monk arrives.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-04, 08:13 PM
But a Monk's AC bonus is an (Ex) ability. :smallconfused:

Damn, it is as well. Oh well, the monk's still stuck in gaseous form.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-04, 08:36 PM
Just to point out, even ignoring the fact that !critical equipment/spells is ridiculously easy to come by, you can only use stunning fist once per round, without Rapid Stunning from Complete Warrior. So no Flurry of Stun.

Chronos
2007-11-04, 08:42 PM
If the monk relies on magical gizmos and spellcasting lackies, ie teleport items, cohorts, UMD, etc.... then they effectively prove that they can simulate the abilities of a wizard by spending a lot of money or hireing a guy.But on the other hand, a wizard can't simulate the abilities of a monk by spending money. Is that the point you were trying to make?


Monks that try to rely on Monk abilities beyound fast stealth and cheesey feats die... always.And wizards that try to rely on wizard abilities other than spellcasting die even more often. Having certain skills on one's class list is a perfectly legitimate class feature, no less so than spellcasting.

horseboy
2007-11-04, 09:10 PM
Can anyone beat this, Core, with the above assumptions (and without burning down all cover or similar)?

Hmm, well, keeping in mind it's me :smallamused:
From a quick perusal through my PHB, I'd go with Summon Monster V with all the extension goodies. Summon Shadow Mastiff. His movement is 5' faster than your half movement. So, firm ground, small creature, moving at regular movement, 15+1+5=21. Racial ability+Survival skill 21-4-8=9.
I'm assuming that we're not arguing can the wizard kill you when they find you, but can the wizard still find you without all the scrying, right?

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-04, 10:06 PM
I'd say the Wizard should just teleport to the town and start setting up traps for the monk. Well within his power, and by the time the monk gets there he's fairly boned.

Crilley
2007-11-04, 10:12 PM
Bury alchemists fire in shallow holes all along the road? That would be pretty hilarious.

But no, I think the wizard would definitely win. Even though monks are cool in my opinion, they work best with other characters. Personally I dont see exactly why you would want to take the strongest class and (though I hate to admit) the weakest class and say "Here, fight to the death, no avoiding allowed, and you can only use your class features, not including WBL because thats UNFAIR :smallfrown: :smallfrown: :smallfrown: "

Seems a little silly to me.

EDIT: Also, why are we assuming that the wizard is clever enough to memorise JUST the right spells, but a monk is too stupid to prepare for trouble in the slightest?

Quietus
2007-11-04, 11:08 PM
Can I spend a half hour in the town I start out in?

I buy a 21-foot pole (pole vault type thing).

Now you can't forcecage me. I run in plain sight at my full monk speed all the way there. I have the Sun School feat (no prereqs, and it's not unreasonable to assume they'd have something that allows them to attack after their abundant step), along with Freezing the Lifeblood, so I can paralyze the wizard should I get the opportunity. You know, just for kicks. Also, most people have access to flight through magical weapons as necessary.

Monk abilities : You come in on a phantom steed in an effort to get the speed advantage, I'll Ddoor up and use Sun School to hit it with an attack. It has AC 18 and 27 hit points - I SHOULD be able to drop it in one shot by hitting it, assuming I've paid any attention to my strength. A potion of Fly gives me a base speed of 120, versus your now overland flying speed (assuming you bothered to do this). I win the speed battle, barring teleports, which let me get closer to the city every time you do it. I disarm you of your shield (with my free feat), stun as much as I like. Obviously not an option if you're a necropolitan, but really, how many wizards are? Other undead have to suck an LA that prevents time stop cheese, so I'm not worried about them.

And all of this can be done as I'm running in plain sight, preventing your forcecage because I had the foresight to pick up a 21-foot long stick of wood, knowing full well that a wizard would be after me.

As for time stop combos... I don't remember if Wail would work while a time stop is up, and good luck catching me in one while I can still move. As far as things that DO work, I can Teleport, move quickly, and am hard to nail down, since your precious 1500 gold moneysink has been trumped by three ten-foot poles attached to one another, a total cost of 6 silver.




As for anyone who complains about a helm of teleportation, remember I would only use it to hop a small distance to escape idiot win buttons, and is certainly something that a monk would be likely to buy, as a wizard would with his Greater Metamagic Rods of Everything.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-05, 01:24 AM
EDIT: Also, why are we assuming that the wizard is clever enough to memorise JUST the right spells, but a monk is too stupid to prepare for trouble in the slightest?

That's always assumed. The only wizard ever talked about in these threads is Schroedinger's Wizard, whose spell lists and exact resources are left undefined until such time as a challenge arises, whereupon it's discovered that the wizard had just the prepared spell and/or item he needed to counter it.

This holds true even if the wizard ends up casting more spells than he has slots.

Not that monks can really compare to wizards, though. :smallwink:

kpenguin
2007-11-05, 01:26 AM
Can the wizard stall for time by moving/destroying the town?

Kaelik
2007-11-05, 01:30 AM
That's always assumed. The only wizard ever talked about in these threads is Schroedinger's Wizard, whose spell lists and exact resources are left undefined until such time as a challenge arises, whereupon it's discovered that the wizard had just the prepared spell and/or item he needed to counter it.

This holds true even if the wizard ends up casting more spells than he has slots.

Not that monks can really compare to wizards, though. :smallwink:

Be fair for once. Even though most often we assume that a Wizard uses many good spells, for this particular case, the only spells used where Fly/Teleport/Scry/Forcecage/Time Stop/Orb Spells/ and Phantom Steed. Other then Phantom Steed, when have you ever heard of a Wizard that didn't have those spells memorized?

Mike_Lemmer
2007-11-05, 01:40 AM
A wizard that couldn't find them and spent his learned spells on other ones?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-05, 02:02 AM
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A simple Wizard trick wins this whole debate-

Use Snowcasting Flash Frost Energy Substitution (Electricity) Born of the Three Thunders Explosive Locate City on the village.

End result: You blow up the city, and the monk can't step foot in it. Takes 1 standard action by the way, and you could actually do it as a 7th level wizard.

Khanderas
2007-11-05, 02:07 AM
A forcecage won't kill anyone either.

Can mindblanks block scrying?
True, but the challenge is to stop the monk from reaching town. Not neccecary killed.
2 Forcecages. "Forget" to dim anchor him and when he dim door out, forcecage him again.
Rest up, renew spells and prepare to recast them again if needed (IIRC: metmagiced forcecage at level x lasts some 8 hours)

Kantolin
2007-11-05, 02:07 AM
Fortunately, I'm more interested in demonstrating that a Wizard does indeed have limits, and can be defeated, especially when the goal is not specifically about the death of one or the other.

Interestingly, I don't think most people assume this is quite true. After all, it's very possible that a given low-save character will, that one-in-a-million time, natural 20 (or simply roll extremely well) over and over again. Potentially indefinitely.

The idea is more that a wizard is an exceptionally powerful class, and has the resources to stop almost anything. This does not mean that there is no possible method of defeating a given wizard at something; it's entirely possible to create a campaign which centers around something a particular wizard isn't good at.


That's always assumed. The only wizard ever talked about in these threads is Schroedinger's Wizard, whose spell lists and exact resources are left undefined until such time as a challenge arises, whereupon it's discovered that the wizard had just the prepared spell and/or item he needed to counter it.

I don't believe that's quite an accurate description. It's more that a question is posed, and the answer is, "A wizard could do X or Y about it", which would solve the problem.

Any problem that isn't time-sensitive, therefore, can be solved by the wizard either doing X that day, or possibly the day afterwards. This, especially when it's far less likely that another party member can solve it, is what makes the wizard a powerful class.

For example, a lot of the things a wizard can do, a sorceror can also do (Although irritatingly, one level later). But that is far more chancy - a sorceror cannot, the next day (or with any amount of preparation), have the spell avaliable. The reason a wizard is a powerful class is because it is capable of doing these things, and can set himself up to do so as well.

To the discussion at hand, preparation is a key point. If the question is 'Is it possible to create a monk that no wizard can possibly detect', then I don't know if that's possible, as there's a spell and/or setup for about every potential situation. If the question is, 'Can all wizards ever prevent all monks ever from reaching this location', then that's again no.

If either of those questions are being asked, then I suppose this is an interesting logic exercise at least. :P If it's mean to suggest 'Wizards are not a powerful class because it is possible to defeat them', then that's curious logic at best.

If the question is 'If your average monk needed suddenly to run from X to Y, while your average wizard at that moment is suddenly notified 'you need to stop this monk who is running from X to Y'... then that's more interesting. Sadly, in most campaigns, scrying does become extremely useful, as does either fly or phantom steed, then teleportation. Thus, your average monk will be discovered fairly swiftly - although mind blank does become very useful at higher levels, so there's potential there.

Then it comes down to what type of wizard it is. Solid fog, a decent amount of walls, or forcecages would help either slow or incapacitate the monk - perhaps even multiple summons. If the wizard lacks any of the multiple methods of either slowing down the monk or keeping up with the monk, there's an autolose there, but otherwise they're fairly well off - and many of those spells are generally useful in your average situation.

Of course, almost all of these spells can be halted - a ring of freedom of movement, for example, stops solid fog. Still, I don't think it's too likely for a monk of all classes to have a ring of freedom of movement - of all the people who wouldn't mind being in a grapple, it's the monk.

Still, I'd give the advantage to the wizard, here. Almost all wizards have something that can slow down a monk, then even if the wizard only has fireball-esque spells, once you've got a monk in place you can keep trying things for some time (And once you've got any group incapable of escaping soon, you essentially force things to become a fight).

illathid
2007-11-05, 02:39 AM
I think Illusions are the way to go with this challenge. Have a Gnome illusionist 10/Master Specialist 9/Archmage1 (with the 10th lvl racial sub. for gnome illusionist, Insidious Illusions) cast Heightened Permanent Images around the village. Each image would have a save DC around 34 or so, and would require a caster level check (With a DC 34 as well) for any divinations cast on it (including true sight) to work.

Bassetking
2007-11-05, 02:48 AM
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A simple Wizard trick wins this whole debate-

Use Snowcasting Flash Frost Energy Substitution (Electricity) Born of the Three Thunders Explosive Locate City on the village.

End result: You blow up the city, and the monk can't step foot in it. Takes 1 standard action by the way, and you could actually do it as a 7th level wizard.

Two problems, there.

1) Needs to be Energy Admixture, not Energy Substitution. Energy Sub strips off the [cold] descriptor, while Admixture lets you keep Cold, applying both snowcasting and Flash Frost, and convert some of the damage to [electrical] in order to qualify for Born of Three Thunders and Explosive.

Further, should you tack Enlarge onto the spell, You're able to affect an area just slightly smaller than.... Texas.

2) This will only affect living things that have reflex saves. It's not going to perform the Hurl and Smear to buildings, mountains, or property. Just every living thing inside a spherical region the size of Texas.

Tack on Arcane Thesis, and your wizard is casting this spell enough times in one day to guarantee that the monk will fail his reflex save at least once, and will get turned into chunky sauces.

Of course, your wizard is built entirely, totally, and wholly around this single trick, and really is going to suffer in a "Real" situation, because he isn't packing Extend, Permanency, Still or Silent...

Kurald Galain
2007-11-05, 05:20 AM
EDIT: Also, why are we assuming that the wizard is clever enough to memorise JUST the right spells,

If it boils down to strategy, then from an in-game perspective the wizard will win on account of having an intelligence score in the high twenties, which is well above normal human levels of brilliance and excellence.

From an out-game perspective, it means the most skilled player will win, because the average D&D player cannot even imagine what someone with an intelligence score of 25 would do.

Of course, it can be argued that it does not simply boil to strategy - but if any question comes down to "would the wizard character be smart enough to know this-and-that or to do so-and-so", then answer is indisputably "yes".

Setra
2007-11-05, 05:53 AM
Um.. the Monk would be effected by Power Word Stun, right? Couldn't you use that then maybe cast a damage spell or two until Power word Kill works on him?

As to finding I dunno... maybe just cast Wish "I wish I knew where this Monk is"? Or no?

Kurald Galain
2007-11-05, 06:08 AM
Um.. the Monk would be effected by Power Word Stun, right? Couldn't you use that then maybe cast a damage spell or two until Power word Kill works on him?

It goes without saying that, if the wizard can locate and reach the monk, the wizard wins. The question is whether the monk's stealth and fast movement are sufficient to allow him to evade the wizard (although the wizard has faster movement through Phantom Steed).

Jack_Simth
2007-11-05, 07:22 AM
Hmm, well, keeping in mind it's me :smallamused:
From a quick perusal through my PHB, I'd go with Summon Monster V with all the extension goodies. Summon Shadow Mastiff. His movement is 5' faster than your half movement. So, firm ground, small creature, moving at regular movement, 15+1+5=21. Racial ability+Survival skill 21-4-8=9.
I'm assuming that we're not arguing can the wizard kill you when they find you, but can the wizard still find you without all the scrying, right?

Okay, that's a good one.

You catch my initial build for this - two and a half pages later, it lasted longer than I thought. He got past about three or four other wizard attempts.

You've got some minor issues - you're only catching up at 5 feet per round (half a mile an hour), and you have to stop every 40 rounds to re-summon, and it takes a full round for the next shadow mastif to re-find the trail. You can cast off your Phantom Steed on the last round, but the new one still has to find the trail. You get 39 rounds of movement for each 1 round of being still. In that 40 round cycle, you go, what, 1950 feet, while the half-move Monk goes 1800 - you'll still catch up, but over the course of, say, 24 hours, you'll only gain about 10 miles (and go through 360 castings of your 5th level spell - 15 castings per hour, 2,250 feet of catchup per hour - slightly under half a mile).

I can think of three basic modifications to the original that would get past that issue (any one of which, on it's own, would work):

1) Soak the -5 to Hide/Move Silently to travel at almost full move (85 feet per round). Shadow Mastif keeps falling farther and farther behind.
2) Eliminate the trail completely by hirering an extended Pass Without Trace (base 1 hour/level, Extended to 2) from a Druid-13 or better (to get the duration to 26 hours, and legal under my assumptions, above); Shadow Mastif can't track.
3) Break the trail somehow every now and again, such as with a momentarily donned Cape of the Monteback, or useage of the Monk's Abundant Step ability, or doses of Dust of Tracelessness every now and again (+20 track DC, covers a 250 foot stretch of trail - your shadow mastif loses the scent), to require you to spend time re-finding it.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 07:40 AM
It would probably be easier and cheaper to just have a dog do the tracking aswell, since you'd need to recast a 5th level spell every 40 rounds. If the wizard was a halfling or gnome it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose they have a trained ridin dog that can be taught the "tracking" trick.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-05, 08:22 AM
You can use a rod of extend on the summoning spell.

If the riding animal is your familiar, you can cast persitent Expeditious Retreat on it.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 08:24 AM
You can use a rod of extend on the summoning spell.

If the riding animal is your familiar, you can cast persitent Expeditious Retreat on it.

Can you use a rod of extend on a spell that's already extended?

Kurald Galain
2007-11-05, 08:44 AM
Can you use a rod of extend on a spell that's already extended?

No, but it saves your spell slots. Extended 5th-level spell takes a higher level slot, rod-of-extend spell does not.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 08:49 AM
No, but it saves your spell slots. Extended 5th-level spell takes a higher level slot, rod-of-extend spell does not.

but then you'd have to buy a heck of a lot of rods of extend, since this plan involves casting Summon Monster 5 every 40 rounds for a LOOOONG time to catch up to the monk.

Snadgeros
2007-11-05, 09:39 AM
Hold on here! Now you're giving the wizard magic items, but denying the monk the same! If the wizard can have wands without using spell slots, why can't the monk have rings of freedom of movement or other magic items? So long as they don't directly teleport him right into the town from the starting point, I see no unfairness qualifier.

EDIT: Also note that this whole challenge is biased towards the wizard. Wizards are powerful because they have access to any and all spells, but can only cast so many per day and have to have them prepared. It's very easy to make wizard cheese by combining one or two spells, but unless the wizard knows about these situations beforehand, he's not going to have any cheese ready. By giving them 8 hours to prepare, you're giving the monk nothing (he doesn't HAVE spells to prepare) and the wizard everything. You're taking the monk's primary advantage over spellcasters away!

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 10:19 AM
Hold on here! Now you're giving the wizard magic items, but denying the monk the same! If the wizard can have wands without using spell slots, why can't the monk have rings of freedom of movement or other magic items? So long as they don't directly teleport him right into the town from the starting point, I see no unfairness qualifier.

EDIT: Also note that this whole challenge is biased towards the wizard. Wizards are powerful because they have access to any and all spells, but can only cast so many per day and have to have them prepared. It's very easy to make wizard cheese by combining one or two spells, but unless the wizard knows about these situations beforehand, he's not going to have any cheese ready. By giving them 8 hours to prepare, you're giving the monk nothing (he doesn't HAVE spells to prepare) and the wizard everything. You're taking the monk's primary advantage over spellcasters away!

Um... we were just talking about using scent based helpers to track MS/H characters, I think we'd even moved off Monk vs Wiz on that one.

Telonius
2007-11-05, 10:35 AM
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A simple Wizard trick wins this whole debate-

Use Snowcasting Flash Frost Energy Substitution (Electricity) Born of the Three Thunders Explosive Locate City on the village.

End result: You blow up the city, and the monk can't step foot in it. Takes 1 standard action by the way, and you could actually do it as a 7th level wizard.

You win the Black Mage Award for Murderous Solutions to Complex Problems. :smallbiggrin:

Ne0
2007-11-05, 10:55 AM
Sorry for interrupting, but how does giving the monk DM-favor bias help the argument? Qp specifically requires that it be declared before the attack roll...

For that argument, I was just spicing up the dialogue a bit. :smalltongue: The DM stuff didn't really matter.

And to all those 'Look at me, I think outside the box', the point is to stop the monk, not blowing up the town. You don't specifically need a wizard to destroy a town. :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2007-11-05, 06:12 PM
It would probably be easier and cheaper to just have a dog do the tracking aswell, since you'd need to recast a 5th level spell every 40 rounds. If the wizard was a halfling or gnome it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose they have a trained ridin dog that can be taught the "tracking" trick.A riding dog can't track well enough to matter.

The Monster Manual Riding dog has no ranks in Survival, and a +1 Wis bonus. It's got a +4 bonus when tracking by scent, so it's got a +5 Modifier. Taking ten at half it's Move, it makes DC 15. He can successfully track a single, medum critter over firm ground (DC 15) when traveling at a move of 20 (2 miles in an hour). The Goblin Monk in question is small, so it's a base DC 16. Additionally, the monk, even moving at half speed to hide, is going at 4.5 miles per hour. The Dog can't catch up, even if you find a way for it to make the DC with the -5 for going at it's full move of 40 - and even then, it's not catching up to the half-speed Monk-20 who's traveling at 45. The riding dog cannot cut it.

The Shadow Mastiff he was Summoning has a +12 Modifier when tracking by scent, and it was just a single point below it's "take 10" tracking limit at it's move of 50, which is the minimum to ever actually catch up with the Monk (well, other than using Chase rules Con checks, but they're Summoned, and so the "chase" for any given Shadow Mastiff doesn't last long enough to matter for Con checks).

F.L.
2007-11-05, 07:35 PM
Certainly people have talked of destroying the town, and the uncertainty of whether it wins this challenge. But how easy is it for a wizard to destroy a plane?

Arbitrarity
2007-11-05, 07:37 PM
Certainly people have talked of destroying the town, and the uncertainty of whether it wins this challenge. But how easy is it for a wizard to destroy a plane?

You haven't seen...


Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage

F.L.
2007-11-05, 07:42 PM
But that only destroys the village/planet with damage. Now, it could still be construed that the 'village' could be called the point in space it used to occupy, or similar such pedantry. I'm talking about erasing a plane in its entirety from existance, such that space and time themselves don't remain anymore. What spells give ya that?

Also, arguably, the TNT has a listed, fixed explosive radius. So this annihilating damage may only effect 30' or so.

Dode
2007-11-05, 07:53 PM
But that only destroys the village/planet with damage. Now, it could still be construed that the 'village' could be called the point in space it used to occupy, or similar such pedantry. No, that would be "a point in space that happens to be where a village is". A crater is not a village.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-05, 07:55 PM
Hm. A Sphere of Annihlation sorta works, but not quite. The easiest answer is either Mortiverse or Pun-Pun, most likely, what with the effective "create your own ability" abilities, though Morti is third party. Nonetheless, an ability with "Special: The DM hands you all of his notes pertaining to the adventure" is rather amusing.


No, that would be "a point in space that happens to be where a village was". A crater is not a village.

Fixed :smallbiggrin:

Dode
2007-11-05, 07:58 PM
Anyways, Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor + the standard invis/fly combo seems to have this all in hand. What a ridiculous challenge.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-05, 08:03 PM
Anyways, Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor + the standard invis/fly combo seems to have this all in hand. What a ridiculous challenge.

Hardly. Finding the monk is a serious problem under the stated regulations. How do you plan to do it? The monk knows it's important, knows a wizard is coming. Check out what plans are. You can't find him, firstly, unless you have something mind-blank penetrating.

In fact, I think wizard generally loses this one, if only because it involves travel, which is trivial at higher levels, and the goal to accomplish is rather odd. Also, darkstalker is really annoying :smalltongue:

Dode
2007-11-05, 08:12 PM
Hardly. Finding the monk is a serious problem under the stated regulations. How do you plan to do it? The monk knows it's important, knows a wizard is coming. Check out what plans are.
"Hire another wizard to cast an 8th level spell"? That's not Wizard vs. Monk, that's Wizard vs. Wizard who casts a spell on an otherwise irrelevent Monk. If it's only a fair contest if the Monk gets another Wizard to do all the work for him, well, that speaks for itself. "Wizard vs X" threads I notice quickly devolve to "Wizard vs. X (with Wizard backup)" otherwise they would end at the first post.

GoC
2007-11-05, 08:19 PM
I think, if you let the wizard buff his INT bonus to +14, you should allow the monk to do so as well.
The Monk is already buffed.
That's why he has 22 in Wis, Con and Dex.
He also has a +5 cloak of resistance.


And the spell level varies per spell, remember?
Would a Hieghtened Prismatic Wall satisfy you?
Or Spell Focus(Abjuration)?
Or a Prismatic Sphere instead?


Read my posts above on the matter of finding the monk.
Read my post. I said "Assuming the wizard can find the monk."
This is not a given but if he can then the monk is dead 95% of the time.


Also, the monks excellent save can allow him to travel through the prismatic walls most of the time without any harm.
Let's check that:
There are 3 colors that would kill the monk (he's immune to poison) and 3 more that do a fair bit of damage.
The monk has SR 30 and the wizard has caster level 25 for the purpose of SR checks (greater spell penetration and Ioun Stone).
The monk will make his save exactly half the time and has to make 6 of them.
His SR means that there's a 25% chance that each layer won't affect him.
So the chance that he'll make it through the Save-or-Dies is: (1-1/2*3/4)^6 ~ 6%.
Then there's all the damage he takes from the other 3 colors.

There's a reason a Prismatic Sphere is considered the ultimate defence.


And it is affected by the monks SR 30

Crushing hand can also be negated by SR.
1% of the time isn't going to be enough.

greenknight
2007-11-05, 08:34 PM
"Hire another wizard to cast an 8th level spell"? That's not Wizard vs. Monk, that's Wizard vs. Wizard who casts a spell on an otherwise irrelevent Monk.

That's a fair statement of the problem with this challenge, IMO. The most effective strategy (from Jack_Simth) doesn't really need a Monk. I could put a Mind Blank, Pass without Trace and Ring of Invisibility on a 1st level Commoner and it would give the Wizard as much trouble. Throw in a Wind Walk and the commoner would be able to move even faster than the Monk (600 feet per round). But yeah, I'd like to see a strategy which really requires the use of Monk class abilities to work, as opposed to working for practically anyone of any level.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-06, 11:20 AM
Does Darkstalker protect you against the travel others part of wish.

Kaelik
2007-11-06, 02:31 PM
Does Darkstalker protect you against the travel others part of wish.

No it does not. However it doesn't matter, because as soon as you are appear in front of the Wizard, you make a Hide check, and then you are invisible to anything other then telepathy and Mindsense.

horseboy
2007-11-06, 03:09 PM
Hold on here! Now you're giving the wizard magic items, but denying the monk the same! If the wizard can have wands without using spell slots, why can't the monk have rings of freedom of movement or other magic items? So long as they don't directly teleport him right into the town from the starting point, I see no unfairness qualifier. The monk in question had a page and a half of magic gear listed. I went through, figured out the chink in his stated defenses, and found a way to exploit them. The monk then decided to Schroedinger on more gear, or once he realizes how I'm doing it, go with more traditional ways to counter my traditional ways. Of course, by then I'm probably close enough that it's not as important. So, it ultimately down to how much of a head start the monk had. I'm thinking 6 or 7 rounds at best, while I whittle down through the list of accesses that don't work. So it wouldn't take that long to catch him, I'd think.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-06, 09:35 PM
That's a fair statement of the problem with this challenge, IMO. The most effective strategy (from Jack_Simth) doesn't really need a Monk. I could put a Mind Blank, Pass without Trace and Ring of Invisibility on a 1st level Commoner and it would give the Wizard as much trouble. Throw in a Wind Walk and the commoner would be able to move even faster than the Monk (600 feet per round). But yeah, I'd like to see a strategy which really requires the use of Monk class abilities to work, as opposed to working for practically anyone of any level.
I initially was going to go with a Third Eye Conceal (Goggles slot, XPH - continuous Mind Blank) but decided to go with something I can do Core, instead.

The challenge, like most such, is a demonstration of Wizard-20 ruling the roost - the situation pits a class who's usefulness is around a second or third order equation with respect to level against a class who's usefulness is basically a first (possibly second, being generous) order equation with respect to level, and asking the question "which is better" at level 20. Duh.

Try the same exercise at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, instead of just 20th. With just WBL (no hiring other spellcasters, no cross-class skills, no more than 5% of WBL spent on consumables, Core only, remove the "one standard action" win ability of the helm/boots of teleportation - all rules apply to both). At 20th, the Monk is pretty much toast (unless he repeatedly wins initiative and runs away each time).

At 1st, it's a bit of a toss up (random variables dominate 1st level play), although a Wizard at that level can't find anything without help, so if the Wizard has to find the monk first, Wizard loses, no save (except, perhaps, a Hawk's Spot or a Bat's Blindsense) - and the Wizard doesn't have much in the way of an offense that poses enough of a threat to have a reasonable chance of stopping the monk, even if they do encounter each other. If they don't start near each other, Monk wins. If they do encounter each other, monk probably wins.

At 5th, the Wizard is still two levels away from Scrying... he still can't find the monk with spells - except, perhaps, Arcane Sight (which, as his top-tier spell, only lasts 5 minutes, and only scans 120 feet - he has to already know where the monk is, give or take about a 120 foot radius), and even if he manages to find the monk, what's he gonna do? Monk's got a high touch AC and all good saves - almost nothing will work reliably enough to actually take the monk out before he can reach the village. Wizard can pull it off if he actually manages to encounter the monk (unlikely), and he gets lucky. Odds favor the monk, especially if they don't start near each other, by a lot.

At 10th, the Wizard's odds start to be something other than bleak. He can Scry out the monk and teleport to somewhere he might have a chance to do something ... after spending 1 hour casting, if he can get through the Monk's Will save (which is usually pretty good), if he can get enough of a bearing on the *moving* monk to travel to what is most likely a "viewed once" location (4% chance the Wizard hurts himself, 8% chance the Wizard hits an area that just looks the same, but is wrong, 12% chance of being 1d10*1d10% off target - only a 76% on-target chance), and then the Wizard STILL has to win initiative if the Monk isn't to simply ignore the Wizard and move on (or even kill him!) and attack with spells that the Monk is liable to save against or otherwise avoid anyway. Odds favor the monk, but only a little (a lot closer to even if the Wizard has a Quickened True Strike handy and something that's got a good chance of crippling the monk with a touch attack).

At 15th, the Wizard can reliably locate the Monk (Discern Location is an 8th level spell) and doesn't have to worry about arriving on target anymore (Greater Teleport is 7th). Most his spell durations are high enough that the Wizard can use them before the 10 minute casting time of Discern Location and still have them up so he's ready to go when he encounters the monk. Here though, he can pull off the Force Cage, and with the right Rod, can even get a damaging effect in there... but not before the Monk can just leave (Abundant Step at 12th) and almost the entire Wizard arsenal is chancy (Monk has a high touch AC, high saves, and SR). If they're both built with roughly the same amount of attention to the task at hand, the Wizard has an edge... but only because he can try two or three times in one day, and can ensure his own survival by way of Contingency.

At 20th, the Wizard wins, after the second or third Time Stop/Dimension Lock/Acid Fog/Forcage (on the first, if the Wizard beats the SR check), unless the Monk can find a way to foil Discern Location.

tyckspoon
2007-11-07, 04:22 AM
At 1st, it's a bit of a toss up (random variables dominate 1st level play), although a Wizard at that level can't find anything without help, so if the Wizard has to find the monk first, Wizard loses, no save (except, perhaps, a Hawk's Spot or a Bat's Blindsense) - and the Wizard doesn't have much in the way of an offense that poses enough of a threat to have a reasonable chance of stopping the monk, even if they do encounter each other. If they don't start near each other, Monk wins. If they do encounter each other, monk probably wins.


I agree that the encounter would probably have to be artificially forced, but a first level wizard does have a fair chance of downing a first level monk. Sleep and Color Spray are both effective save-or-dies at this level. Sleep has an unfeasibly long casting time for a one-on-one situation, so I'll look at Color Spray. Ok.. Will Save, but if it works, the monk is completely helpless for a minimum of 2 rounds. This is level one, so.. let's give the Wizard an 18 Int and Spell Focus in Illusion. For fairness, we'll give the Monk 18 Wis and Iron Will (yes, this is almost certainly not the feat the Monk would take in a real game.) That gives our Wizard a Save DC of ... 10+4+1+1 - 16. It gives the Monk a Will save bonus of 2+4+2= +8. He's got a good chance of beating the save, but it's worth trying for the Wizard. It's no better than a coin flip if the monk didn't take a feat especially to help him survive this kind of thing. Heck, it's a first level fight; the Wizard could use his slots to buff with Mage Armor and Enlarge Person and stand a pretty good chance of cracking the Monk's skull with a quarterstaff.

Armads
2007-11-07, 05:59 AM
By level 11, the wizard can just wait outside the town (he's faster, due to Phantom Steed, or he could teleport) and then nuke the monk with a flesh to stone once the monk comes near.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-07, 06:42 AM
Armads:
By level 11, the Monk's got a rather decent Hide and Move Silently check; even camping, the Wizard may very well simply miss him. Additionally, at level 12, the Monk picks up Abundant Step for the final distance if the Wizard's "camping" - and in order for the Wizard to do that, he still has to win initiative (at that range, he's basically got a single action to take the Monk before Monk is in town).

tyckspoon:
Why yes, sleep or Color Spray could potentially work - if the Wizard wins initiative and still gets the Monk in range, and if the monk fails his save - but Color Spray has a 15 foot range, Monks do have access to some ranged weapons, you noted the casting time on sleep is impractical (as is the one on Enlarge Person, incidentally - also one full round), you noted that an encounter between the two would need to be forced, and you quoted me as calling it a "bit of a toss up" and noting that "random variables dominate 1st level play". Yes, the Wizard could win - if he's lucky (hey, at 20th, the Wizard could fail all his SR penetration checks, too, and the Monk could get away, if the Monk is lucky). If it comes down to a fight, the Monk probably has a better attack bonus, a similar AC (if the Wizard isn't spending all of today's spells on it - and if he is, the Monk can just leave in this scenario, as Mr. Wizard has thereby forgone most of his offense) more hit points, and better options (Wizard-1 in a grapple is basically toast). If it actually comes down to a fight, Monk-1 is likely to beat up the Wiz-1. It's not certain, but it's likely. Monk has a very significant edge at this level.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-07, 06:44 AM
Have we determined a specific starting distance?

I think that in order to eliminate the wizard/monk being specialized to deal with the scenario, they should both have to defeat a CR 20 encounter before beginning the task.

The monk's task being moving X distance to Y point, and the wizard's task being to stop him.

Perhaps defeating the encounter is required before the destination is determined.

That being rigidly enforced by GM FIAT so no spells/effects can get around it.

LordLocke
2007-11-07, 03:32 PM
Level 1 is very much a coin toss. A Save or Die wizard has decent odds of landing a match-winner if he wins initiative, and a buff wizard could probably smash a Monk in a match if he gets time to put his buffs up. That said, either class could take it here, and I'd probably have to give it to whoever got the higher init roll.

Lv 5 would be pretty ugly- Wizard can't scry, but he can certainly cover a lot of ground (Phantom Steed's open) and once the Monk is found, considering the Monk won't have ANY way of attacking the flying-mounted Wizard except 1d2 Disks of Annoying, the wizard can throw save-or-dies until he's blue in the face and the Monk suddenly finds himself at the mercy of the Celestial Badger eating his liver. The only way the Monk wins this one is if he somehow gets away without getting spotted, which is both unlikely (A Wizard and his Familiar making spot checks every six seconds for five hours means roughly 6000 Spot checks made over a 56.6 mile area) and returns to the "It doesn't matter if it's a Monk, a Rogue, or a Commoner" issue.

Lv 10 is actually a little MORE even because the Monk could actually do something if the Wizard showed up. (WBL flying item or something of the like) But largely falls into the same pratfall as lv 5 PLUS the wizard can now scry him out. In fact, until the Monk can WBL a way to avoid getting scryed or a a way of reliably dealing with a wizard that shows up (Hint- 1/Day Dimension Door is just going to stall the inevitable), it's entirely the Wizard's show. Lv 20 is probably fairer then anything after level 5 BECAUSE the Monk can afford to... well, break his class limits and buy his way out of the mess.

Signmaker
2007-11-07, 05:35 PM
Okay, it would be really useful if we knew exactly WHAT spells the wizard is assumed to have at his disposal (Including amounts per day, etc.) and what the Monk's options are.

Yes, the Wizard can counter practically every monk trick the monk can pull. Some of these require extensive spell use, others not so much. The wizard knows the monk has a variety of tactics he can attempt on his voyage through a partially-sparsely concealed pathway (Most likely the most neutral battleground you'll have between the two). So, the question is changed from "Can the Wizard stop the Monk from getting to town" (As this has been proven to be in the Wizard's favor for almost every situation presented) to "Can the Wizard have enough in his arsenal to not only prepare for each situation, but also to have enough prepared so that he does not run out of spells in countering the situation the monk brings to the table?"

This assumes an absence of:
Leadership
External Character Sources(No outside buffs)
Optimization for any one situation on the wizard's part (He has to stay general in order to anticipate any trick the monk might pull)
Instant-win situations (Blowing up the town, Teleporting straight to town, etc)

The wizard is obviously favored in this situation due to his jack-of-all-trades nature in spellcasting, but his one setback is that despite a massive spell allotment, he may not be able to prepare for every situation.

So, what is now needed, accepting these guidelines, is this:

Wizard Spell List (We need a mutual list that everyone can somewhat agree on as decent. Obviously, we stick to core as per fairness)
Every option the monk has to attempt to reach the town

Once these two data sets is massed (Please, we don't need any more biased/opinion-based comments), we can start to see just how likely the monk may reach the town.


One last note: Due to my limited knowledge on equipment, I have left out any guidelines for magic items, equipment, etc. Someone else, preferably neutral on this debate, should finish up my list of guidelines to ensure fairness and reduce in-thread bickering.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-07, 06:35 PM
Level 1 is very much a coin toss. A Save or Die wizard has decent odds of landing a match-winner if he wins initiative, and a buff wizard could probably smash a Monk in a match if he gets time to put his buffs up. That said, either class could take it here, and I'd probably have to give it to whoever got the higher init roll.

Well, if we assume the DM doesn't force an encounter, and go with item 6 for Kaelik's choice of distance back on page 2 ...

6) The Monk starts at Dawn X hours from his destination. The Wizard is 2 miles behind him, but does not know this, or the name of the town the Monk is running to. He is permitted to cast spells at Dawn. (Assume negligible time difference due to earlier/later dawn.)
... then the monk simply wins, as they'll pretty much never encounter each other unless the DM forces it.

If the DM forces an encounter at some point, the Monk doesn't actually need to harm the Wizard at all - he simply needs to leave. If you've got a monk built towards stealth, this amounts to going around a corner and Hiding after achieving Total Cover to break line of sight. One, maybe two rounds. If the Monk wins intiative (call it a 50/50 chance) then the Monk simply leaves, and wins that way. If the Wizard wins initiative, he's got one spell to disable the monk (which will have a save - which the Monk is liable to make roughly 50% of the time). If the Monk saves, he gets his turn, and simply leaves, winning. Wizard has two rolls to win (must beat the Monk's Initiative, and must beat the Monk's save). Meanwhile, the Monk only has to win once. 75% to the Monk, even when the DM forces a single encounter.


Lv 5 would be pretty ugly- Wizard can't scry, but he can certainly cover a lot of ground (Phantom Steed's open) and once the Monk is found, considering the Monk won't have ANY way of attacking the flying-mounted Wizard except 1d2 Disks of Annoying, the wizard can throw save-or-dies until he's blue in the face and the Monk suddenly finds himself at the mercy of the Celestial Badger eating his liver. The only way the Monk wins this one is if he somehow gets away without getting spotted, which is both unlikely (A Wizard and his Familiar making spot checks every six seconds for five hours means roughly 6000 Spot checks made over a 56.6 mile area) and returns to the "It doesn't matter if it's a Monk, a Rogue, or a Commoner" issue.

Not a 56.6 mile area - it's along a line. If the horse walks (at it's 100 foot move, ten miles per hour) it covers 50 miles during it's duration. As the Spot skill is at a -1 penalty for each 10 feet of distance, and the Monk has Hide as a class skill, the Wizard is unlikely to see the monk if the Monk has enough cover to actually Hide. So long as the Monk doesn't take the shortest route, the Wizard needs to make a very tight net in order to catch the Monk - which brings the Wizard's effective forward speed down to almost nothing - AND the Wizard doesn't really get any retries on his Spot checks (in order to cover a really big area, he must keep moving basically at the Steed's full pace - and he's at -10 to Spot the location he was just at, due to the 100 feet of distance). The Wizard is not going to find the Monk this way with any reasonable degree of probability.

Further, you've just declared two third level spells that the Wizard is using in this strategy - which is all of a generalist Wizard-5's 3rd level spells (including Int bonus spells). If he uses scrolls for the flying and phantom steed (a Phantom Steed can't actually fly on it's own until caster level 14). As a 3rd level scroll costs 375 gp market, that's 4.1666...% of his wealth by level spent on a consumable item. If he tries for 2, he hits 8.333....% of wealth by level. Basically, though, he's limited to one, maybe two save-or-lose spells that he can use without closing to melee range. Hardly "blue in the face" territory. To compound the issue, it is called Horse-like, not warhorse-like. Technically, in battle, it's not battle-trained - the Wizard's doing a DC 20 Control Mount in Battle; if he fails, he can't do anything at all - and it's not a class skill. If he gets off the horse, well, he had to waste a round casting Fly to do so (it only lasts him five minutes - he can't cast it before he Spots the Monk) - Monk finds some quick Total cover, and the Wizard's back to square one.

Again, even if the Wizard manages to find the stealthy Monk (which is unlikely, unless the DM fiats it in to favor poor Mr. Wizard-5) he must:
1) Win Initiative (or the Monk simply leaves)
2) Effectively disable the Monk in one action (or the Monk simply leaves)
3) Make a tough Ride Check (or he can't cast anyway)
If Mr. Wizard fails even one of these, the Monk can leave, and the Wizard loses.

Favors the Monk (especially if he picks up a Potion of Invisibility - which, quite frankly, everyone needs to have by this level, unless they can cast it directly).


Lv 10 is actually a little MORE even because the Monk could actually do something if the Wizard showed up. (WBL flying item or something of the like) But largely falls into the same pratfall as lv 5 PLUS the wizard can now scry him out. In fact, until the Monk can WBL a way to avoid getting scryed or a a way of reliably dealing with a wizard that shows up (Hint- 1/Day Dimension Door is just going to stall the inevitable), it's entirely the Wizard's show. Lv 20 is probably fairer then anything after level 5 BECAUSE the Monk can afford to... well, break his class limits and buy his way out of the mess.

Wizard can Scry... but it's basically got a 50/50 chance of failing (and then no more scrying today - and no real way to find the Monk, as the Phantom Steed scouring of the countryside doesn't really work very well), and Mr. Wizard has wasted an hour if it doesn't work. Then he has to get to the Monk - who will most likely be moving, so the Wizard's Teleport has only a 76% chance of getting the Wizard where he wants to be. This time around, the Wizard can arrange to not need to win initiative, as he can arrange a surprise round (cast Invisibility before Teleport, while keeping an eye on the mirror for the location to arrive) but he still pretty much needs to disable the Monk in one spell (or the Monk just leaves again).

Favors the Monk - but not as strongly as some of the earlier ones.

Kaelik
2007-11-07, 08:13 PM
Well, if we assume the DM doesn't force an encounter, and go with item 6 for Kaelik's choice of distance back on page 2 ...

... then the monk simply wins, as they'll pretty much never encounter each other unless the DM forces it.

To be completely fair. This is just stupid. I made those regulations when the question was level 20. They were fairly specific. Obviously they don't in any meaningful way apply to (your, not the OPs) decision to expand the level range. At this point, all regulations are back on the table if you are going to change things so drastically.

Armads
2007-11-07, 08:32 PM
If the DM forces an encounter at some point, the Monk doesn't actually need to harm the Wizard at all - he simply needs to leave. If you've got a monk built towards stealth, this amounts to going around a corner and Hiding after achieving Total Cover to break line of sight. One, maybe two rounds. If the Monk wins initiative (call it a 50/50 chance) then the Monk simply leaves, and wins that way. If the Wizard wins initiative, he's got one spell to disable the monk (which will have a save - which the Monk is liable to make roughly 50% of the time). If the Monk saves, he gets his turn, and simply leaves, winning. Wizard has two rolls to win (must beat the Monk's Initiative, and must beat the Monk's save). Meanwhile, the Monk only has to win once. 75% to the Monk, even when the DM forces a single encounter.

You need to find a corner, which probably won't be there since you're traveling to a town, unless you're traveling in some underpass or from one point of a town to another. Also, once the wizard hits you with a save-or die, you die. You're not going to make the save if the wizard nukes with a SoD. Also, if you leave, the wizard can actually chase you, since he's a lot faster than you.



Favors the Monk (especially if he picks up a Potion of Invisibility - which, quite frankly, everyone needs to have by this level, unless they can cast it directly).

The wizard can go invisible too. He does not simply ride around in the sky, casting prestidigitation to make himself glow and then glitterdust himself so as to be visible to all.

This challenge depends on the terrain. If it's suited for hiding (lots of cover), then the monk will probably win - even though it doesn't use any monk abilities besides abundant step and class skills once it gets within range. If it's just a big open field, the wizard will easily defeat the monk.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-07, 08:41 PM
To be completely fair. This is just stupid. I made those regulations when the question was level 20. They were fairly specific. Obviously they don't in any meaningful way apply to (your, not the OPs) decision to expand the level range. At this point, all regulations are back on the table if you are going to change things so drastically.
*shrug*

That's the closest anyone's come to suggesting an actual starting distance, which is kinda important to the task at hand, especially before instantaneous dimensional travel is available (9th level, with the 5th level spell Teleport).

At first, though, basically any distance long enough to actually preclude an immediate encounter with long-range spells will have essentially the same effect. Half a mile would do the job rather readily.


You need to find a corner, which probably won't be there since you're traveling to a town, unless you're traveling in some underpass or from one point of a town to another.
A corner, a bush, a boulder, a hill, a sizeable tree - he just needs one moment to block line of sight, with some partial cover after that. I say "a corner" because that's what the write-up in the Hide skill lists. It's shorthand.

Besides - the DM has to force the encounter if they start at a large distance, otherwise it won't happen anyway until at least 9th, when the Wizard gets both Teleport and Scrying.

Also, once the wizard hits you with a save-or die, you die. You're not going to make the save if the wizard nukes with a SoD. Also, if you leave, the wizard can actually chase you, since he's a lot faster than you.

Err...

If we look at the DMG NPC Monk and Wizard (neither of which are optimized significantly - it's just for a "standard" example, that anyone has access to; I'm presuming the two have an equal amount of optimization), at 1st, the Monk's saves are +3/+3/+4; Wizard's spell DC for a 1st level spell is 13. That Sleep and Color Spray (both Will save spells, and about the only save or lose at that level) have a DC of 13 (14, with Spell Focus, 15 if he's human with Greater Spell Focus too, or a gnome with Spell Focus(Illusion) on Color Spray). Monk has a better than 50% chance of saving.

At 5th, DMG NPC Monk's saves are +5/+6/+6; the 5th level Wizard has a save DC on his highest level spell of 16 (17 with Spell Focus, 18 with Greater Spell Focus). Again, basically 50/50 odds (with no DC boosters, that's a roll of 11 for a Fort spell, or 50% exactly, 9 for a Reflex or Will spell at 55% success for the Monk; spell focus and greater spell focus push those 5% each in favor of the Wizard).

At 10th, DMG NPC Monk's saves are +8/+9/+10; DMG NPC Wizard's spell DC (on highest level spell) is DC 18 (19 with Spell Focus, 20 with Greater Spell Focus). Again, Monk's got basically 50/50 odds. on any given casting.


At 15th, DMG NPC Monk's saves are +10/+12/+13; DMG NPC Wizard's spell save DC (on highest level spell) is DC 24 - the Wizard FINALLY has something notably better than a 50/50 chance... of course, at this point, the Monk has spell resistance to factor in, which cuts that back down.

In general, the Monk's saves are going to be about at the point of 50/50 on the Wizard's best spell with roughly equal amounts of optimization. Hardly a case of "once the wizard hits you with a save-or die, you die" - the "save" part of "save-or-die" is there for a reason.

Can I request that you do some research before making such statements? The Wiz-20 wins on an encounter with the Monk mostly because of his ability to deny the monk actions.



The wizard can go invisible too. He does not simply ride around in the sky, casting prestidigitation to make himself glow and then glitterdust himself so as to be visible to all.

He can go invisible, but the Wizard can't keep it up constantly until he gets a Ring of Invisibility; if he's attempting to fly a search pattern over a longish period of time, he effectively can't cast it until after he finds the Monk - and, as Spot is a class skill for monks, means the monk has a very high chance of seeng the Wizard long before the Wizard sees the Monk.

The Potion of Invisibility is just a quick and dirty way to get total concealment for long enough to find regular concealment to make a Hide check. Remember - the monk's the runner with the football, not the interceptor. All the Monk needs to do is reach the goal without getting hit enough to go down. The Wizard will of course counter with See Invisibility on his next action... but all along, the goal of the Monk is escape, not combat. As such, it's perfectly reasonable for him to carry it in-hand the entire way to avoid the move action, just so he can actually hide in the one move action before the Wizard gets his See Invisibility on. Especially as having something in a Monk's hand doesn't impair his ability to make his unarmed strikes in the slightest.

The reason I mention every character above first should have one (well, 2nd, really) is because it's a "get out of the encounter" card.

A particularly bright Wizard, if he actually manages to find the Monk, will open with Glitterdust - not to blind, but to prevent hiding.


This challenge depends on the terrain. If it's suited for hiding (lots of cover), then the monk will probably win - even though it doesn't use any monk abilities besides abundant step and class skills once it gets within range. If it's just a big open field, the wizard will easily defeat the monk.

A Small monk can hide in, say, an open field of wheat - have you ever seen a toddler get lost in a field of wheat?

GoC
2007-11-07, 09:59 PM
The wizard is obviously favored in this situation due to his jack-of-all-trades nature in spellcasting, but his one setback is that despite a massive spell allotment, he may not be able to prepare for every situation.

You're removing scrolls from the equation.
And I've never heard of a non-epic wizard who didn't use scrolls...

Armads
2007-11-07, 10:41 PM
A corner, a bush, a boulder, a hill, a sizeable tree - he just needs one moment to block line of sight, with some partial cover after that. I say "a corner" because that's what the write-up in the Hide skill lists. It's shorthand.

The wizard can just ride around the corner and the monk will be there. Like you said, if the wizard gets off a glitterdust on the monk, the monk cannot hide.



Can I request that you do some research before making such statements?

Sure.

Monk 20
Fort (since I'm nuking him with Stone to Flesh), assuming 26 Con and a Cloak of resist +5 and the +2 to saves feat (which sucks and no one ever takes it): +27

Wizard 20
Flesh to Stone save DC (heightened):
10 Base + 9 Spell Level + 2 Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus +12 (Int modifier, which is derived from 18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) +1 Cold Focus +1 Greater Cold Focus +4 Draconic Aura (cold) +2 (Ability focus: spells) = DC 41.

The monk fails 70% of the time, or 60%, if the wizard doesn't take Ability focus (spells). The monk's constitution will never match the wizard's because the wizard focuses Int-first and everything else secondary, while the monk has MAD (unless he uses Intuitive Attack, the the wizard is free to choose a reflex-or-die (Earthquake?), will-or-die (phantasmal killer, which would be even more awesome in the hands of a gnome) or fort-or-die (flesh to stone)

The wizard takes Snowcasting to give his spells the cold subtype to buff it with the feats.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-07, 11:06 PM
Monk 20
Fort (since I'm nuking him with Stone to Flesh), assuming 26 Con and a Cloak of resist +5 and the +2 to saves feat (which sucks and no one ever takes it): +27

Wizard 20
Flesh to Stone save DC (heightened):
10 Base + 9 Spell Level + 2 Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus +12 (Int modifier, which is derived from 18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) +1 Cold Focus +1 Greater Cold Focus +4 Draconic Aura (cold) +2 (Ability focus: spells) = DC 41.

That is a significant amount of optimization. Since we are optimizing, I say we give the monk 5 levels of occult slayer and let you try to make that save instead.

No DM would ever allow ability focus: spells. That is just plain stupid.

Idea Man
2007-11-07, 11:47 PM
Y'know, I love how every build for a wizard in these contests has a tome of clear thought +5. If we're doing a one-shot challenge, we should be using one-shot rules, don't you think? One use items cost 5 times their normal price and have 1/5 as many charges, DMG p.199. This seems fair to me. It would also avoid the "My wizard is just dripping in scrolls/rods/wands/etc." statement. Yeah, you have some, but not a nigh-unlimited amount.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-08, 12:12 AM
One use items cost 5 times their normal price and have 1/5 as many charges, DMG p.199.

Really? I though that was a houserule. There are rules for one-shots in the DMG? I'll have to check that when I get home.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-08, 12:45 AM
The wizard can just ride around the corner and the monk will be there. Like you said, if the wizard gets off a glitterdust on the monk, the monk cannot hide.

Sure, and in getting off the glitterdust, he's expending his actions on something that is even less likely to hurt the Monk. Monk can attack, or not, at his option. When runnings not an option, he demonstrates why grappling is good for shutting down spellcasters. Stops working at around the time that the Wizard can get Freedom of Movement basically constantly (which isn't on his class list at all... nothing particular to the Wizard about buying a ring he can't make), Contingent Dimension Door, and so on. Before that point, a Wizard in a grapple is basically shut down.


Sure.

Monk 20
Fort (since I'm nuking him with Stone to Flesh), assuming 26 Con and a Cloak of resist +5 and the +2 to saves feat (which sucks and no one ever takes it): +27

Wizard 20
Flesh to Stone save DC (heightened):
10 Base + 9 Spell Level + 2 Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus +12 (Int modifier, which is derived from 18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) +1 Cold Focus +1 Greater Cold Focus +4 Draconic Aura (cold) +2 (Ability focus: spells) = DC 41.

The monk fails 70% of the time, or 60%, if the wizard doesn't take Ability focus (spells). The monk's constitution will never match the wizard's because the wizard focuses Int-first and everything else secondary, while the monk has MAD (unless he uses Intuitive Attack, the the wizard is free to choose a reflex-or-die (Earthquake?), will-or-die (phantasmal killer, which would be even more awesome in the hands of a gnome) or fort-or-die (flesh to stone)

The wizard takes Snowcasting to give his spells the cold subtype to buff it with the feats.
Riiight.... I take a comparison against a "standard" listing, that's Core-only, make note of the fact that a portion of the reason I'm picking it from the DMG, rather than actually statting it up by hand, is that it IS standard, and roughly equally optimized; anyone can look them up - there is no way I could be slipping a bias into that analysis that wouldn't be there for the entire world to see quite obviously. So what do you do? You turn around and "counter" with a build that's minmaxed up the wazoo including some questionable rulings on aspects of the build with a couple of splatbooks included and show how he beats a considerably less optimized character built completely out of Core and... you've still really only pushed things by 20% off the middle (30% vs. 50% - with a note that if one of your questionable choices is denied, it's 40% vs. 50%) - still hardly the absolute you listed, even if I grant you your questionable choices.

I'm sorry, having observed your tactics in a debate, I can no longer see a point in continuing. Have fun.

Armads
2007-11-08, 12:53 AM
That is a significant amount of optimization. Since we are optimizing, I say we give the monk 5 levels of occult slayer and let you try to make that save instead.


Now you only fail 55% of the time. If the wizard goes Fatespinner, the monk will never make the save (unless he gets a natural 20)



Riiight.... I take a comparison against a "standard" listing, that's Core-only, make note of the fact that a portion of the reason I'm picking it from the DMG, rather than actually statting it up by hand, is that it IS standard, and roughly equally optimized; anyone can look them up - there is no way I could be slipping a bias into that analysis that wouldn't be there for the entire world to see quite obviously. So what do you do? You turn around and "counter" with a build that's minmaxed up the wazoo including some questionable rulings on aspects of the build with a couple of splatbooks included and show how he beats a considerably less optimized character built completely out of Core and... you've still really only pushed things by 20% off the middle (30% vs. 50% - with a note that if one of your questionable choices is denied, it's 40% vs. 50%) - still hardly the absolute you listed, even if I grant you your questionable choices.

Suggest how you could min-max the wazoo out of a monk to make the saving throw and still do what he does normally without failure - if monks do anything normally at all.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-08, 01:10 AM
Now you only fail 55% of the time. If the wizard goes Fatespinner, the monk will never make the save (unless he gets a natural 20)

No, I fail 0% of the time, because I send the flesh to stone spell back at you. Have fun making your twinked-out save or die with your bad fort save.

You do know what an occult slayer is, don't you?

Armads
2007-11-08, 01:47 AM
Replace Flesh to Stone with Wail of the Banshee. Problem solved.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-08, 01:58 AM
Replace Flesh to Stone with Wail of the Banshee. Problem solved.

Death Ward.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-08, 06:01 AM
Sure, and in getting off the glitterdust, he's expending his actions on something that is even less likely to hurt the Monk.
That's what Quicken Spell is for. Or having a familiar around that can cast. Or both at the same time, for a net four spells per round.


Death Ward.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

See, the thing is that yes, every option has its counter. But the moment this becomes an arms race as to who has the most options and counters available, the wizard has already won it.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-08, 06:38 AM
You going to open up with Wail of the Banshee and have it fail, or with Mordenkainen's Disjunction? Someone complained about the Schroedinger's Wealth by Level. Wizards in these discussions seem to have a similar phenomenon with spells prepared.

Having a Death Ward effect via magic item is just good sense for a high level character. Prepping M's D and Wail of the Banshee on a regular basis at high level- unlikely. M's D denies loot to the party, and there are too many things immune to death effects to have a Wail of the Banshee prepped very often.

EDIt- also, the M's D allows a Will Save. The monk sure didn't cast Death Ward, it would be an item granted effect. Good luck punching a Monk's Will save reliably. Especially with your "optimized to cast Wail of the Banshee wizard."

Honestly, I don't see many wizards even bothering to learn Wail of the Banshee, as it is a horrible spell. "Fort save or die, everyone but me!"

Including other party members . . . Great for a villain wizard to use, not so much for a PC.


The monk in question had a page and a half of magic gear listed. I went through, figured out the chink in his stated defenses, and found a way to exploit them. The monk then decided to Schroedinger on more gear

When the wizard use Schroedinger's spell selection, it is only fair the monk use the same strategy with his gear. The wizard has no way of knowing what the monk has in his bag of tricks.

Kantolin
2007-11-08, 07:18 AM
When the wizard use Schroedinger's spell selection, it is only fair the monk use the same strategy with his gear. The wizard has no way of knowing what the monk has in his bag of tricks.

This is, again, a significant problem with this exercise.

After all, it's possible to make a level 1 commoner with a level 20's WBL who can beat a given Wizard. It's also very easy for a level 20 wizard with a level 20's WBL who can beat that given level 1 commoner.

So if your comment is: "Can an [anything] beat a particularly given wizard given money and possibly preparation", the answer is yes.

Wizards are not unbeatable - if nothing else, there are other wizards. But most wizards can beat most monks, even at this situation.

In addition, a monk cannot, with preparation, go away and get a different set of gear that works better here. A wizard can, with eight hours, utterly shift their spell list to a 'specifically works well here' option. This implies that wizards are more capable of actually using Schroedinger sequences in play than monks - wizards really can shift their spells around to fit the situation to a point.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-08, 07:25 AM
You going to open up with Wail of the Banshee and have it fail, or with Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
The irony is that if he really wants to, he can do both.


When the wizard use Schroedinger's spell selection, it is only fair the monk use the same strategy with his gear. The wizard has no way of knowing what the monk has in his bag of tricks.
The irony is that he has a way of knowing that.

And yes, I'm aware that neither MDis nor WotB are very good in party situations - but then neither are monks, and this is not a party situation to begin with.

I agree with Kantolin that there is a problem with this exercise wrt what "tricks" both classes have available - but again, once it becomes an arms race, the wizard wins, because (1) his bag of tricks is a lot bigger, and (2) he can swap his tricks around by memorizing new spells.

Chronos
2007-11-08, 07:34 PM
Y'know, I love how every build for a wizard in these contests has a tome of clear thought +5. If we're doing a one-shot challenge, we should be using one-shot rules, don't you think? One use items cost 5 times their normal price and have 1/5 as many charges, DMG p.199.A tome of clear thought doesn't really function like a single-use item, though... Yes, you only use it once, but then the benefits last forever. It's not like it's just good for one encounter.

And since someone mentioned Phantasmal Killer, it's not a Will save or die. It's Will and then Fortitude save or die. That's right, the target gets even more chances to avoid it. It's fine versus something whose saves are poor, and it's lower level than all the other killing spells, but versus a monk, it's a poor choice.

Idea Man
2007-11-08, 11:10 PM
A tome of clear thought doesn't really function like a single-use item, though... Yes, you only use it once, but then the benefits last forever. It's not like it's just good for one encounter.

It's just the same as a wand, by that description. You use the "charge", of which it only has one, and reap the benefits. A wand of shatter or cure light wounds is just as permanent, just not nearly as nice. :smallwink:

I understand what you meant, it's just that the restriction is to keep players from abusing the one-shot with expendable items. If you had a full 50-charge staff of fire on a troll hunt, you'd have a huge advantage.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-09, 02:00 AM
The irony is that he has a way of knowing that.

Sure he does. You keep sayign that. And I don't think anyone here is saying that the monk can beat the wizard, just that the monk can get from point A to point B w/o being killed by the wizard.

Dode
2007-11-09, 06:52 AM
Sure he does. You keep sayign that. And I don't think anyone here is saying that the monk can beat the wizard, just that the monk can get from point A to point B w/o being killed by the wizard.Which is of course also wrong, unless the Monk pays off a Wizard to carry his end of the battle for him and buff him with high-level spells so he doesn't instantly die within the first minute. At which point it becomes "Wizard vs. Monk and Wizard" and not the original thread title premise.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-09, 07:29 AM
Which is of course also wrong, unless the Monk pays off a Wizard to carry his end of the battle for him and buff him with high-level spells so he doesn't instantly die within the first minute. At which point it becomes "Wizard vs. Monk and Wizard" and not the original thread title premise.

Actually, if you branch outside of Core, permit some PrC classes, and permit some questionable but technically legal stuff, the Monk can pull it off without outside help - or consumable items, for that matter.

Seriously - sure, the Wiz-20 is liable to kill the Monk if they encounter each other... but it's not that difficult to arrange so that the Wizard never locates the Monk.

The Monk-6/Psionic Fist-1/(Illithid) Slayer-10/Whatever-3, for instance, is effectively under a continual Mind Blank (so long as the Monk never actually expends his Psionic Focus). Max out Hide and Move Silently (Able Learner or a good Intelligence score is good for this, as Hide and Move Silently aren't class skills for the (Illithid) Slayer), take Darkstalker, Cloak Dance, and Practiced Manifester(Psionic Fist), and then if they start sufficiently far apart that the Wizard does not immediately encounter the Monk (and the DM does not force an encounter) the Monk can use a move action every round with Cloak Dance to get Concealment to Hide. (Illithid) Slayer has a 9/10 manifesting class advancement, and Psionic Fist is a manifesting class - which means this "monk" gets 5th level Psychic Warrior powers (for breaking the trail up with Dimension Slide in case someone is following by scent, basic armoring, and so on). Darkstalker negates any Blindsense or Blindsight the Wizard can come up with if Mr. Wizard is camping at the destination, the Monk can keep it up basically forever, and Mr. Monk is protected from any divinations the Wizard might use. If Mr. Monk has to do something, he still has his Standard Action every round.

Without (Illithid) Slayer, Mr. Monk needs a third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank effect).

mostlyharmful
2007-11-09, 07:41 AM
Actually, if you branch outside of Core, permit some PrC classes, and permit some questionable but technically legal stuff, the Monk can pull it off without outside help - or consumable items, for that matter.

Seriously - sure, the Wiz-20 is liable to kill the Monk if they encounter each other... but it's not that difficult to arrange so that the Wizard never locates the Monk.

The Monk-6/Psionic Fist-1/(Illithid) Slayer-10/Whatever-3, for instance, is effectively under a continual Mind Blank (so long as the Monk never actually expends his Psionic Focus). Max out Hide and Move Silently (Able Learner or a good Intelligence score is good for this, as Hide and Move Silently aren't class skills for the (Illithid) Slayer), take Darkstalker, Cloak Dance, and Practiced Manifester(Psionic Fist), and then if they start sufficiently far apart that the Wizard does not immediately encounter the Monk (and the DM does not force an encounter) the Monk can use a move action every round with Cloak Dance to get Concealment to Hide. (Illithid) Slayer has a 9/10 manifesting class advancement, and Psionic Fist is a manifesting class - which means this "monk" gets 5th level Psychic Warrior powers (for breaking the trail up with Dimension Slide in case someone is following by scent, basic armoring, and so on). Darkstalker negates any Blindsense or Blindsight the Wizard can come up with if Mr. Wizard is camping at the destination, the Monk can keep it up basically forever, and Mr. Monk is protected from any divinations the Wizard might use. If Mr. Monk has to do something, he still has his Standard Action every round.

Without (Illithid) Slayer, Mr. Monk needs a third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank effect).

Doesn't sound very Monktastic. Then the wizard casts wish in his private demiplane of doom and magic traps. Bleh.

Kaelik
2007-11-09, 10:26 AM
Actually, if you branch outside of Core, permit some PrC classes, and permit some questionable but technically legal stuff, the Monk can pull it off without outside help - or consumable items, for that matter.

Seriously - sure, the Wiz-20 is liable to kill the Monk if they encounter each other... but it's not that difficult to arrange so that the Wizard never locates the Monk.

The Monk-6/Psionic Fist-1/(Illithid) Slayer-10/Whatever-3, for instance, is effectively under a continual Mind Blank (so long as the Monk never actually expends his Psionic Focus). Max out Hide and Move Silently (Able Learner or a good Intelligence score is good for this, as Hide and Move Silently aren't class skills for the (Illithid) Slayer), take Darkstalker, Cloak Dance, and Practiced Manifester(Psionic Fist), and then if they start sufficiently far apart that the Wizard does not immediately encounter the Monk (and the DM does not force an encounter) the Monk can use a move action every round with Cloak Dance to get Concealment to Hide. (Illithid) Slayer has a 9/10 manifesting class advancement, and Psionic Fist is a manifesting class - which means this "monk" gets 5th level Psychic Warrior powers (for breaking the trail up with Dimension Slide in case someone is following by scent, basic armoring, and so on). Darkstalker negates any Blindsense or Blindsight the Wizard can come up with if Mr. Wizard is camping at the destination, the Monk can keep it up basically forever, and Mr. Monk is protected from any divinations the Wizard might use. If Mr. Monk has to do something, he still has his Standard Action every round.

Without (Illithid) Slayer, Mr. Monk needs a third Eye Conceal (XPH - Mind Blank effect).

The Third Eye Conceal makes alot more sense as a defense of the Monk then this.

If you start with the assumption that more then half your levels are going to be non-Monk levels (in fact a PrC that a Monk could never qualify for on it's own) and you are going to use a bunch of psionic powers to break trail/whatever. You could basically use one level of Monk for H/MS as class skills. And Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior X, would be better in almost every way.

We once again have a situation where you develop a character that needs only have H/MS as class skills, and then develop some other way to counter other Wizard detection methods. Slayer levels are not Monk levels.

Rogue 1/Commoner 8/Psychic Warrior 1/Slayer 10 works just as well.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-09, 07:42 PM
Doesn't sound very Monktastic. Then the wizard casts wish in his private demiplane of doom and magic traps. Bleh.
*shrug*

Wish permits a Will save and SR. In general, you'll have about a 50/50 chance of just having wasted 5,000 xp - and if the Monk's got, say, a Cubic Gate, you also need to win initiative before he vanishes again (unless you're blocking Planar ... travel ... oh, wait...). Really, though, a reasonably-built Wizard improves faster with level than does the Monk assuming equal player optimization skill. I freely admit this. At 20th, in an actual confrontation, the Monk's toast. Don't forget to check the rest of the game. Who is liable to win this at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th?

Other than the scent trail, you can do it pure Monk if you grab the Third Eye Conceal and appropriate feats (Darkstalker, Cloak Dance). Really, all the (Illithid) Slayer levels are in there for is the Mind Blank effect.



The Third Eye Conceal makes alot more sense as a defense of the Monk then this.

If you start with the assumption that more then half your levels are going to be non-Monk levels (in fact a PrC that a Monk could never qualify for on it's own) and you are going to use a bunch of psionic powers to break trail/whatever. You could basically use one level of Monk for H/MS as class skills. And Rogue 1/Psychic Warrior X, would be better in almost every way.

We once again have a situation where you develop a character that needs only have H/MS as class skills, and then develop some other way to counter other Wizard detection methods. Slayer levels are not Monk levels.

Rogue 1/Commoner 8/Psychic Warrior 1/Slayer 10 works just as well.
???
Monk can qualify for (Illithid) Slayer fairly easily. Sure, he needs... 4 ranks... in a cross-class skill. Hardly overly expensive. The +4 BAB, he's got at 6th level. The rest is just feats (well, and the Int drain for the non-SRD version).

It's not entirely Monkish - so? That's not the point I'm after.

Dode
2007-11-09, 08:37 PM
Seriously - sure, the Wiz-20 is liable to kill the Monk if they encounter each other... but it's not that difficult to arrange so that the Wizard never locates the Monk. Heh. "It's not that difficult, the Monk just has to retrain 14 Monk levels into something else."

That's like going into a "Fighter vs. Wizard" thread and pushing a "Fighter 1/Cleric 5/Ur-Priest 10" as proof of how Fighters scale well with Wizards in capability.

Vva70
2007-11-09, 08:42 PM
It's not entirely Monkish - so? That's not the point I'm after.

The point you've stated that you're after is that a wizard can be defeated. That's been conceded time and again. However, this challenge was between a wizard and a monk. It's been shown that the means by which a character can beat the wizard are not dependent on monkish abilities (save that H/MS are monk class skills...same as rogues and bards and rangers...).

Jack_Simth
2007-11-09, 09:07 PM
Heh. "It's not that difficult, the Monk just has to retrain 14 Monk levels into something else."

That's only if you want to lose the equipment dependancy. A Monk-10/Psionic Fist-10 does just fine (and the Psionic Fist levels are mostly just to get something to break the scent trail - Dimension Slide or Dimension Door - for the guy that got clever with Summoning).


That's like going into a "Fighter vs. Wizard" thread and pushing a "Fighter 1/Cleric 5/Ur-Priest 10" as proof of how Fighters scale well with Wizards in capability.You don't want Fighter-1/Cleric-5; you want Fighter-1/Bard-4 (or better, UA Savage Bard-5) - much easier to get into Ur-Priest that way.

And quite frankly, the Ur-priest doesn't do so hot unless you can find a way to properly up the caster level.

But that's beside the point. Find a way to break the scent trail repeatedly (or just soak the -5 penalty and go at monk-speed) grab Darkstalker, the Third Eye Conceal, and you're pretty good to go with Pure Monk (except for that mindsense ability... unless Mind Blank blocks that, too...).


The point you've stated that you're after is that a wizard can be defeated. That's been conceded time and again. However, this challenge was between a wizard and a monk. It's been shown that the means by which a character can beat the wizard are not dependent on monkish abilities (save that H/MS are monk class skills...same as rogues and bards and rangers...).
Sorta. The good saves help at levels where there aren't no-save locater spells (e.g., 10th). The Monk speed is very useful for when the Wizard Planar Binds a Shadow Mastiff, Yeth Hound, Hell Hound, or Hound Archon to track you down, and has it soak the -5 to it's Survival checks to move at full speed. The Rogue, Ranger, or Bard will get run down (other than that the Ranger picks up Pass Without Trace - and that the Bard and Rogue get UMD to use a wand of Pass Without Trace... funny, several different classes can accomplish the same thing through different methods....). The Monk soaking the Hide/Move Silently penalty to go at almost full speed and can mostly stay ahead (still needs to break the trail every now and again, though).