Cleric / OC / BK Build with limited ressources in Eberron : Help

[Diliale]

Hi all !

I could use some help for a base cleric human character i'm trying to put together after getting back to a mark of death campaign in Eberron that we dropped a while ago with some friends (it's going to go up to lvl 20).

So ! Context : I'm picking up the character at level 6 and with 4 levels already put in cleric of Zarus with War and Strength domain and the other 2 levels free. I'm a melee oriented cleric also helping in buff/debuff and if in urgency a bit of heal (although the wizard has wands as i craft some and i have a healing belt so we've got that figured). And I'm planning on going ordained champion 5 and bone knight 10 but that's not set in stone, that's why i'm asking for help here.

Currently pompous guy going around with its big sword i want him to shift to something more grim to go with the campaign in future levels (hence my interest in the Bone Knight prestige class). Plus I'm the face of the group as my friends are playing a human druid and a human wizard / future keeper of knowledge / lich wannabe. As you can guess, being a cleric of Zarus doesn't help me in that job so going with a more grim/intimidation vibe would be nice for the rp and gameplay :)

Aside from all that we are not min/maxers and we are trying to keep everyone on the same power level, trying to have abilities that goes well with our characters first, and making the most out of it second. Concerning available content, phb, eberron books and case by case PrC, Feats or Spells can be added (I'm thinking Tome of battles that i've never played with but seems fun and balanced for example, Holy Warrior as possible feat perhaps, etc). For power level and cheese consideration I won't go divine metamagic or things in the same range of power.

Concerning the build :


Stats : 27 point buy -> Str 14 ; Dex 10 ; Con 15 ; Int 10 ; Wis 14 ; Cha 12 (with a +1 to CON from lvl 4 pushing it to 16)

Feats :

Weapon Focus Greatsword (War Domain)
Improved Initiative (Human)
Power Attack (level 1)
Cleave (level 3)
Craft Wand (level 6)
And that's were I don't know what to go for. If I go Ordained champion (allowed by dm) at 5 you can add 2 fighter feat from trading domain powers and I'm not sure what to make of them.
Rider combat feats are not great for a medium sized character although they could have been nice if after Ordained Champion I would have went Bone Knight so no clue here.
Plus the following feats in my level up are a mystery


Items : we restart at lvl 6 with 13 000 gold and one of us as craft woundrous item so my current list is :

Gauntlet of Ogre Power
Periapt Of Wisdom +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Healing Belt
Steel shield heavy +1 (incoming animated shield when I'll have the money)





Otherwise thanks to the PrC I saw on the forum and consider now as I told before well, my skills are a mess :') But it was to be expected with a cleric so hey

And that is all ! Help for feat, advices for the classes, any other consideration you want to discuss I'll like that too ! So thanks in advance :D

[bean illus]

Mounted combat isn't much different for medium size characters that have access to reduce person, etc. It's cheap on a ring.

DMM isn't overpowered unless you have access to lots n lots of turning. I wouldn't worry about outshining a druid and a wizard after 6th level, especially with 3 caster levels lost on OCh and BK.

Ordained champion makes a decent melee, but you'll only get 1 extra feat out of it, unless you go cloistered cleric for the 3 domains.

As for feats. ... i love melee on ordained champion, but ... your sources don't give much. I don't think cleave is great, unless you need it. It's too situational. Google up a list of feats that branch of power attack, and clear a few with your dm. Ask for maybe ... knockback, and brutal strike?

I wonder about improved initiative on the build. It's a good feat, and i like it on high dex characters, but you'll still roll even against a high dex opponent. If i spend a feat, i don't want to still be in the middle of the range 80% of the time.

I don't know eberon well, so i can't help much there. There is Wand Mastery, for a +2 CL on wands you use. Combined with Extraordinary Artisan (eberron), and craft wand, and you'll have nice spell access, even though you lose 3 caster levels. Need CL 9 for WM , so 12th level feat on this build.

Human- power attack
Cloistered cleric- knowledge, war, strength
Cloistered cleric 2-
Cloistered cleric 3- extraordinary artisan

Cloistered cleric 4
Cloistered cleric 5
Ordained champion- improved bullrush, knockback, craft wand

OCh 2
OCh 3
OCh 4- extend spell (or extra turning)

Bone Knight
BK 2
BK 3- wand mastery

* You'll use enlarge person for knockback, which is easy if you make the wands (cheap) yourself. And, OCh burns slots, so having cheap wands at +2 caster is nice.

Keep wary of situational feats you might not use much. Look for feats you'll use ALL THE TIME. Power attack, extend spell, craft wand, are feats you'll benefit from every day, if not every encounter.

[CozJa]

Well, the face part is probably the most difficult one, since your character has low charisma. with a 15 Cha you could've asked for the Imperious Command Feat from DotU but nevermind.

I'm a bit perplexed by craft wand, honestly. I'm not sure what it can give you and what it has to do with your character from a fluff point. Maybe, if you want to craft, choosing craft magic arms and armors would be more appropriate and useful for your Bone Knight (you will be able to modify your Bonecraft Armor and Bonecraft Weapon)?

As for Ordained Champion, I think you can always choose to trade your domains later if you still want to do it, and that could be a good choice, since Fighter Feats aren't necessarily better than access to a Domain Power. In that sense, waiting to get the skeletal steed and only then exchanging two domains granted powers for, maybe, Mounted combat and something else mounted related, could be a better choice.

I agree that the cloistered cleric choice is a very good idea: you can get an extra Domain from it (from Zarus I'd say that Strenght and Destiny are good choices to pair up with War from Ordained champion).
Power attack is always a very good choice, but I concur that it would be better to choose a feat chain with it, rather than taking cleave, and even improved initiative that can be useful but not always. Brutal Strike is really interesting, and I think it works well with the Bonecraft Weapon idea.

If you take Extend Spell (which is a good choice for a melee oriented cleric) Mastery of the Battleground is a cool feat from Player's Guide to Eberron that you could consider!

[bean illus]

Well, the face part is probably the most difficult one, since your character has low charisma. with a 15 Cha you could've asked for the Imperious Command Feat from DotU but nevermind.


Yeah, i couldn't see a way to face the character with such charisma, so didn't address it. Worth mentioning is that cleric has diplomacy, and cloistered has skillpoints. The 4 open levels in the build might bring some face? A 1 level Marshal dip grants skill focus diplomacy, and doubles the charisma bonus, for a +4 net. Together the two classes can stitch together some basic social interaction.



As for Ordained Champion, I think you can always choose to trade your domains later if you still want to do it, and that could be a good choice, since Fighter Feats aren't necessarily better than access to a Domain Power. In that sense, waiting to get the skeletal steed and only then exchanging two domains granted powers for, maybe, Mounted combat and something else mounted related, could be a better choice.


OCh trades at first level. Devotion feats seem to trade whenever you decide.



I'm a bit perplexed by craft wand, honestly. I'm not sure what it can give you and what it has to do with your character from a fluff point. Maybe, if you want to craft, choosing craft magic arms and armors would be more appropriate and useful for your Bone Knight (you will be able to modify your Bonecraft Armor and Bonecraft Weapon)?


Craft wand may be because of dm/players convention. Adding Extraordinary Artisan and Wand Mastery is because eberron, lol.

The feats satisfy some campaigns needs for self crafting, and bend WBL, while expanding wand access to the point of making the build a spontaneous caster of 3rd level (+2) utility spells.

Craft wand cost with ExA
3×5×750×0.375÷50 = 85 gp per charge, .. at caster level 7!

For three of the four Ordained Champion levels you want to take, burning spell slots are the only class abilities you have.


Channel Spell- requires a move action (Yes! Cast!)
Divine Bulwark- sacrifice spell slot as a swift /gain damage reduction
Fist of the Gods- sacrifice a slot as a swift /deal extra damage
Rapid Spontaneous Casting- metamagic requires normal time rather than extra time (cast even more spells/rd with fell drain)


Having more or less souped up wand access and power works very well with Ordained Champion abilities, and allows 1st-3rd level spell slots to be burned indiscriminately.

Check with the DM, and make sure that you're going to have crafting time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First and foremost, if you can get DMG pricing (not SRD pricing) on a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed, it's only 9k gp. That gets you a Bead of Healing and a Bead of Karma, the latter you can use to squeeze an extra +1 bonus and 4 hours duration out of Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon every day.

Second, check MIC p234, you can add effects like enhancement bonuses to ability scores and a resistance bonus to saves to another item of the appropriate slot for the same price as a separate item of that same bonus.

Third, in one level you can cast Greater Resistance (SC) every day, giving you a +3 resistance bonus to saving throws for 24 hours. So a Cloak of Resistance isn't going to stay useful for very long.


My advice on items is to check the Necessary Magic Items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) list. Plan to cover as many of those as humanly possible, but skip any that your spells will cover.

Considering someone has Craft Wondrous Item, I'd get a Necklace of Adaptation made and add the +2 Wis onto that. Upgrade it later with more Wis and even Con and enhancement to natural armor if you want, a Necklace of Adaptation will stay good for your entire adventuring career.

Start with Armbands of Might (MIC) with an enhancement bonus to Str added. If you power attack for -2 or more to hit those will add an extra +2 damage. Later upgrade the Str bonus and also add a Dex bonus to those.

Don't bother starting with a magic shield if it can't already be animated. You'll spend 8k to upgrade it from +1 to +1 Animated, or you'll spend 9k to just get a +1 Animated shield.

Put one rank in Craft: Armorsmithing and say you used Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to succeed by taking ten to craft your own mithral full plate. This way it only costs you 3,500 gp for the armor, and you can say you made some dragonhide armor for the Druid for 1/3 the price as well.

A Healing Belt is a good choice, but also get an Anklet of Translocation. This goes for the whole party, both are cheap enough that everyone should have one of each.

A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend is amazing and cheap.


Can you take character flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30))? Each one gets you an extra feat, and something like Bravado would be fitting.

I would get Law Devotion in CC, replace Improved Initiative if necessary. This gives you something useful to spend your rebuke undead uses on, even if it takes three to activate it a second time. Strength Devotion can also be useful if you like breaking things.

Instead of being able to spontaneously cast inflict spells, use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2. That also allows you to prepare cure spells in your domain slots, and if you pick the War domain it makes Holy Warrior in CC a great candidate for your 9th level feat. I would also trade the Strength domain's granted power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape (page 9) if possible.


Future item goals should definitely include something in every category of the Necessary Magic Items list, plus a Circlet of Rapid Casting in MIC, and by level 13-14 get standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power.

The rod and pearl are for you to prepare Energy Immunity in SC twice every other day, use the pearl to cast it three times and use the rod to make all three last 48 hours. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once, use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity a second time and the rod to make all three of those last 48 hours. This gives you constant immunity to all five energy types and a +6 resistance bonus to your saves, for two 6th level spell slots per day and the cost of those two items.

[Gorthawar]

Lots of good advice already but here are my 5p.

As much as I love the combination of Cloistered cleric and ordained champion I'd advise against it in this case as you'd be limited to light armor at the restart of the game.

However, if you can change things around a little how about this:

In my book you should be able to swap the bonus domain ability you get from ordained champ as well and get 2 fighter feats from it. Use these to take power attack and cleave freeing up your level 1 and 3 feats. My recommendations would be extend spell to increase the duration of your buffs and extra turning which will give you 4 additional smites as ordained champion. Another decent feat is practiced spellcaster to regain the 3 CL you lose through the 2 PRCs. Last but not least check if you can swap your constitution score with wisdom or strength. Both are more important for a cleric IMHO.

Proposed build:
Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 4 / Bone Knight 10 / OC +1 / Cleric +1
Feats:
Human: Imp Initiative
1: Extra turning
3: Extend Spell
5 OC: Power Attack, Cleave
6: Craft Wand or other choice

[Diliale]

Thanks a lot all for all the great advices ! Been spending a lot of time on the forum but a dedicated thread really helps :)

Well, here comes a lot of text to answer all the ideas :D

First thing, concerning my stats and about twicking them, following your advice :



Last but not least check if you can swap your constitution score with wisdom or strength. Both are more important for a cleric IMHO.


(focused blindly a bit too much on constitution I think since nobody in our group has 1d10 or above HD, but you're right, it matters little)

and the other ones concerning my low charisma (clearly too low), I think i could go :

28 point buy -> Str 15 ; Dex 8n; Con 14 ; Int 10 ; Wis 14 ; Cha 14 (with a +1 to str from lvl 4 pushing it to 16 and dumping dex with a little loss on ac and saves but...well, too bad but it's worth ?)
Leading to a much needed boost to charisma, still okey wisdom with a periapt of wisdom and good strength with 18 considering the gauntlets of ogre power.
Concerning my charisma, I don't know if a cloak of charisma could be worth it against a cloak of resistance ? Our dm isn't focused on getting us killed 24/7 and apart from a fight against a wizard and an abomination we didn't have a lot of issues in fights at early levels.


Now second, there are lots of feats I had not heard about, plus mechanics too :

--> About craft wands (brace yourselves it's dumb, we don't have limitations in our campaign settings so it's not because of that) it was to save money on wand of cure light wounds as i didn't want to prepare a lot of healing spells each day. I planned on letting them to the wizard since in combat I'm usually in the front with my two hands taken by a greatsword. But :




Craft wand may be because of dm/players convention. Adding Extraordinary Artisan and Wand Mastery is because eberron, lol.

The feats satisfy some campaigns needs for self crafting, and bend WBL, while expanding wand access to the point of making the build a spontaneous caster of 3rd level (+2) utility spells.

Craft wand cost with ExA
3×5×750×0.375÷50 = 85 gp per charge, .. at caster level 7!

For three of the four Ordained Champion levels you want to take, burning spell slots are the only class abilities you have.

Channel Spell- requires a move action (Yes! Cast!)
Divine Bulwark- sacrifice spell slot as a swift /gain damage reduction
Fist of the Gods- sacrifice a slot as a swift /deal extra damage
Rapid Spontaneous Casting- metamagic requires normal time rather than extra time (cast even more spells/rd with fell drain)


Having more or less souped up wand access and power works very well with Ordained Champion abilities, and allows 1st-3rd level spell slots to be burned indiscriminately.



The easy access to spells despits my lost ECL seems really great though and I had not thought about that.
Would it be only for utility spells outisde of combat then since my hands are busy during combat ? Plus as you mentionned lower most of my spells will be consummed by OC's abylities so... Now I don't know whaat spells I could prepare on a regular day haha ^^"

--> About ride : love the idea of a reduce person spell on a ring to have access to it. Although I didn't found such ring in the rules. I found Armband of Reduction at an affordable price for my level ? Anyway love the idea. Will most likely go that route with a riding dog ! (and later a summoned skeleton riding dog)

--> About power attack feats : brutal strike works with bludgeoning weapons and I was thinking of sticking with greatsword because of Zarus. So I think it's a no for this build path. In place for power attack feats I found Divine Might (a bit meh maybe ?) and Awesome Smite (which I find great !). Are you familiar with them ? Considering a neutral/evil cleric bone knight I find them fitting as well and, most important, useful for awesome smite :)

--> More feats : In place of the brutal strike path I found through the search of fighter feats Intimidating Strike. Which in later levels could be fun if allowed by my dm with things like Imperious Command as suggested in a previous comment (with a +1 bump to my 14 cha for the 15 req.), as well as Never Outnumbered.



cloistered cleric


Beginning with cleric and not cloistered cleric is locked because of how my character is ^^' Doesn't seem fitting for him as he is on the martial side of things in lifeand not the scholar type. But as Gorthawar pointed out, raw it seems like you can trade 2 of your now 3 domain (thanks to the new war domain you gain) abilities for fighter feats.

--> DMM : With only extend spells and at most one extra turning feat that I'll take is it really worth it ? I'll already enjoy using my turning to smite people around I think, plus OC let me cast war domain spells (i.e. bull's strength and divine power) while fighting as a swift action, meaning I won't really need to persist them I think... So I will most likely only use persist spell for magic vestment, greater magic weapon and (i need to ask my dm but most likely ok) greater resistance.


I don't have the time to answer the latest comments right now but I'll do asap as I saw other good pieces. As for now there is the wand crafter build order which seems worth it. Fight wise, extra turning perhaps with ride and intimidate related feats.

1 : Human- power attack + extra turning or improved initiative
1 : Cleric- war, strength
2 : Cleric 2-
3 : Cleric 3- extraordinary artisan
4 : Cleric 4
5 : Ordained champion- mounted combat , ride-by-attack (or intimidating strike and something else)
6 : OCh 2- craft wand
7 : OCh 3-
8 : OCh 4
9 : OCh 5- extend spell (or extra turning or intimidating strike)
10 : Bone Knight
11 : BK 2
12 : BK 3- wand mastery
...
15 : BK 6- spirited charge or never outnumbered/imperious command

Doesn't seem so bad :)

[Diliale]

Considering someone has Craft Wondrous Item, I'd get a Necklace of Adaptation made and add the +2 Wis onto that. Upgrade it later with more Wis and even Con and enhancement to natural armor if you want, a Necklace of Adaptation will stay good for your entire adventuring career.


I only found : "Necklace of Adaptation: This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum." Which doesn't look like what you are talking about, would you have a link ? :)

After that, concerning the resistance cloak I didn't noticed and I think I'll drop it for a charisma cloak. Thanks !

Concerning Armbands of Might I think I'm missing something here but they doesn't seem as good as a flat +2 to str. I'm gaining 2 damage but loosing +1 to attack and with power attack that seems more worth it no ?

Anklet of translocation seems great, just need to check with my dm !

No character flaws tho, too unbalanced and our character is merry enough without additional things haha

For the mithrall armor I already have a point for future Bone Knight but the guidance of the avatar is a straight no :') I'll wait for bone knight I think and keep my old full plate with magic vestment while waiting.

I already saw Holy Warrior while looking at other people's thread and I neek to get back to it with all the new options given by others here !
But concerning :



Instead of being able to spontaneously cast inflict spells, use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2. That also allows you to prepare cure spells in your domain slots


This ability is already traded out thanks to ordained champion which makes war spells castable spontaneously.

There are quite a few other things I'll get back to them later... There is this bit just :



The rod and pearl are for you to prepare Energy Immunity in SC twice every other day, use the pearl to cast it three times and use the rod to make all three last 48 hours. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once, use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity a second time and the rod to make all three of those last 48 hours. This gives you constant immunity to all five energy types and a +6 resistance bonus to your saves, for two 6th level spell slots per day and the cost of those two items.


Which is... Well, too much for me and my group I believe haha ^^' I don't think I'll need that sort of set up and constant immunity from all five energy types won't be much fun for my poor dm. I'll pass, but thanks for all the info !

[Diliale]

Lots of good advice already but here are my 5p.

As much as I love the combination of Cloistered cleric and ordained champion I'd advise against it in this case as you'd be limited to light armor at the restart of the game.

However, if you can change things around a little how about this:

In my book you should be able to swap the bonus domain ability you get from ordained champ as well and get 2 fighter feats from it. Use these to take power attack and cleave freeing up your level 1 and 3 feats. My recommendations would be extend spell to increase the duration of your buffs and extra turning which will give you 4 additional smites as ordained champion. Another decent feat is practiced spellcaster to regain the 3 CL you lose through the 2 PRCs. Last but not least check if you can swap your constitution score with wisdom or strength. Both are more important for a cleric IMHO.

Proposed build:
Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 4 / Bone Knight 10 / OC +1 / Cleric +1
Feats:
Human: Imp Initiative
1: Extra turning
3: Extend Spell
5 OC: Power Attack, Cleave
6: Craft Wand or other choice

I just read briefly before posting my first answer two messages up from that one and I think I'll try to see where to find a place for "practiced spellcaster" which is great ! Already swapped the constitution (as well as the dex) in order to make some room for strength and charisma :)

And I ended up removing cleave. And I might do the same for Improved Initiative I don't really know. But Extra turning for smites as well as extend spell without dmm can be good with magic vestments and the like !

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I only found : "Necklace of Adaptation: This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum." Which doesn't look like what you are talking about, would you have a link ? :)

No, I meant the standard Necklace of Adaptation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation) (though if you get someone in the party to craft it, you don't necessarily need to make it look like that). The other stuff is in Magic Item Compendium page 234, where it details the price of adding/upgrading a +2 to Wisdom or Constitution or an enhancement bonus to natural armor to another throat-slot item such as that necklace. Adding multiple bonuses from that list to the same item doesn't make any of them cost any extra. Using that to add +2 Wisdom to that necklace is the same price as buying a +2 Periapt of Wisdom. Upgrading that Wisdom bonus to +4 and then +6 is the same price as the difference between a +2, +4, and +6 Periapt of Wisdom.

Basically, anything on that list in Magic Item Compendium p234 shouldn't be purchased as a separate item. Get a cheap/useful item of the appropriate slot and get the desired bonus added onto that item.

[Falontani]

Race/Class/Alignment: Cleric of Zarus 4/Ordained Champion 5/Bone Knight 3/Heir of Siberys 2/Bone Knight 6

Starting Stats:




Stat

28 Pt

Level Ups



Strength

14




Dexterity

10




Constitution

14*




Intelligence

10




Wisdom

14

4, 8, 12, 20



Charisma

14

16











Level

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Cleric

+0

+2

+0

+2

Knowledge (Religion) +4, Ride +2, Craft (Armorsmith) +4

Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword(b), Weapon Focus: Greatsword(b), Power Attack, Heroic Spirit

War Domain, Strength Domain, Rebuke Undead, Spontaneous Inflict Spells



2

Cleric

+1

+3

+0

+3

Knowledge (Religion) +5, Ride +2.5, Craft (Armorsmith) +5





3

Cleric

+2

+3

+1

+3

Knowledge (Religion) +6, Ride +3, Craft (Armorsmith) +6

Mounted Combat




4

Cleric

+3

+4

+1

+4

Knowledge (Religion) +7, Ride +3, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +2





5

Ordained Champion

+4

+6

+1

+6

Knowledge (Religion) +8, Ride +5, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +2

Spirited Charge(b), Ride By Attack(b)

Destiny Domain, Modified Spontaneous Casting



6

Ordained Champion

+5

+7

+1

+7

Knowledge (Religion) +9, Ride +7, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +2

Craft Wand, Diehard(b)

Smite



7

Ordained Champion

+6

+7

+2

+7

Knowledge (Religion) +10, Ride +9, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +2


Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark



8

Ordained Champion

+7

+8

+2

+8

Knowledge (Religion) +11, Ride +11, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +2


Fist of the Gods, Rapid Spontaneous Casting



9

Ordained Champion

+8

+8

+2

+8

Knowledge (Religion) +12, Ride +12, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +3

Magical Artisan: Craft Wand

Holy Warrior, War Caster



10

Bone Knight

+8

+10

+2

+8

Knowledge (Religion) +13, Ride +13, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +4


Bonecraft Armor



11

Bone Knight

+9

+11

+2

+8

Knowledge (Religion) +14, Ride +14, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +5


Bonemarch, Summon Skeletal Steed



12

Bone Knight

+10

+11

+3

+9

Knowledge (Religion) +15, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6

Trample

Master of the White Banner



13

Heir of Siberys

+10

+13

+5

+11

Knowledge (Religion) +16, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +2

Action Surge(b)

Additional Action Points



14

Heir of Siberys

+11

+14

+6

+12

Knowledge (Religion) +17, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +4


Mind Blank 1/day (recommended Mind Blank, but can choose True Creation, Discern Location, Awaken, or Greater Teleport)



15

Bone Knight

+12

+15

+6

+12

Knowledge (Religion) +18, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +6

Cavalry Charger

Improved Bonecraft Armor



16

Bone Knight

+12

+15

+6

+12

Knowledge (Religion) +19, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +8


Fill the Ranks 1/day



17

Bone Knight

+13

+16

+7

+13

Knowledge (Religion) +20, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +10


Bonecraft Weapon



18

Bone Knight

+14

+16

+7

+13

Knowledge (Religion) +21, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +12

Improved Bullrush

Improved Bonecraft Armor



19

Bone Knight

+15

+17

+7

+13

Knowledge (Religion) +22, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +14


Exoskeleton of Undeath



20

Bone Knight

+15

+17

+8

+14

Knowledge (Religion) +23, Ride +15, Craft (Armorsmith) +6, Craft (Weaponsmith) +6, Intimidate +16


Death Strike 1/day





I don't suggest going small, even if doing so would seem like it would help; as a human your height is exactly what it needs to be. I would talk to the wizard or druid, see if they are planning on picking up craft arms/armor, if not definitely sub one of the feats for it.

[Diliale]

I don't suggest going small, even if doing so would seem like it would help; as a human your height is exactly what it needs to be. I would talk to the wizard or druid, see if they are planning on picking up craft arms/armor, if not definitely sub one of the feats for it.


Thanks for the whole build up there ! Skill wise I don't see the benefits of upgrading ride before being an Ordained Champion (since it then becomes a class skill). Wouldn't be better off bumping concentration or something else in the meantime or advance on another craft ?

Another thing concerning Heir of Siberys, didn't know of the PrC and read a bit about it the flavor is cool as well as the mark ! We don't use the variant rule on action point so need to talk with my dm about that because it causes problems with Heroic spirit, so we will see

Finally, didn't get your remark concerning the height being okey for human ? If I go for a full ride build with close to almost all the feats related to it as you are suggesting if i fight in a dungeon or cave with small corridors i'm stuck ^^' And I didn't get why you were talking about craft arms/armor afterward. Is it that worth it ?

[Falontani]

The height thing is about your God saying that humans are the perfect life form, and attempting to become smaller may conflict with your deity's stance, but it was mostly a snide comment.

As for craft arms/armor: if no one in your party can enchant weapons/armor, then your bonemeld equipment will only be enchanted by npcs at the dm's discretion. It is exceedingly unlikely that you will find bonemeld equipment preenchanted.

You might be able to talk your dm into just giving you the action points from your feat and class ability instead of making it a global rule. You might instead be able to convince your dm to allow a leadership feat for a member of your Dragonmarked house, which could be someone capable of crafting. (Perhaps they even stay at base?)

You can do skills however you want. Just remember you need 15 ranks in two different skills to enter heir.

I only mentioned heir because it seems like Destiny and human perfection. I'd honestly suggest human paragon as well, but it would put you even further behind in bab and casting, and I already fell short of my goal (bab 16 and 9ths, but with divine power and cl 16, your close enough)

[CozJa]

I agree with basically all of Falontani suggestions (which I consider one of the few people who knows Eberron more than me), especially the one on craft magic arms and armors, as I told in my latest post: you will need it if you go for Bone Knight. Furthermore, if you want craft wand for wands of cure light wounds... Well, maybe it's better to just take the usually suggested Healing Belt from MiC.

As a suggestion for Heir of Siberys if you don't use action points, you could ask your DM for the similar feat Heroic Destiny from the book Races of Destiny.

As for reducing yourself... I think is not that much of a problem in reality: if you can charge on your skeletal steed that's a cool thing to do. If you cannot you are still a cleric with a monstrous sword and loads of spells!

[Diliale]

I agree with basically all of Falontani suggestions (which I consider one of the few people who knows Eberron more than me), especially the one on craft magic arms and armors, as I told in my latest post: you will need it if you go for Bone Knight. Furthermore, if you want craft wand for wands of cure light wounds... Well, maybe it's better to just take the usually suggested Healing Belt from MiC.

As a suggestion for Heir of Siberys if you don't use action points, you could ask your DM for the similar feat Heroic Destiny from the book Races of Destiny.

As for reducing yourself... I think is not that much of a problem in reality: if you can charge on your skeletal steed that's a cool thing to do. If you cannot you are still a cleric with a monstrous sword and loads of spells!

Thank you for the sum up on CozJa's post. I'm not well versed in Eberron, we read the campaign setting while avoiding spoilers prior to the campaign but it was a while ago.

The alternate feat you suggest looks great flavor wise for Heir of Siberys ! The feature of the PrC on additional action points could be a bonus on Heroic Destiny with 2d6 per day instead of or a d8 maybe.

I'll follow the advices on taking the craft magic arm armor in place of wand I thing, thanks, more fitting to my character's flavor although wands seemed to be useful in later levels to compensate spell slot burned. Oh and thanks for the nice sentence, even if I can't charge with the steed my character will already be cool with all its alternate features indeed ^^


Now regarding what you said in an earlier message, Mastery of the Battleground has limited spells it can be applied to, the best way to use it I guess is on spells I use rapid spontaneous casting on during combat (through ordained champion 4th level feature). But except from spiritual weapon nothing from the war domain seem to apply. Does divine power qualify ? Or other interesting spells to use with the feat that i'm missing ?

Thanks in advance !

[CozJa]

Another suggestion for possible feats:

1st level: Power Attack; Improved Bull Rush (Human Bonus); Weapon Focus (Greatsword);
3rd: Extra Turning?
5th: Mounted Combat (Domain); Ride by Attack (Domain)
6th: Diehard (Bonus) Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9th: Shock Trooper
12th:Heroic Destiny
13th: Favored in the House (Protect Destiny?) (Bonus)
15th: Spirited Charge

That suggests using a different approach: you start with two good melee feats, and they would work wonders with the Divine Power+Righteous Might combo (at lower levels you can use Enlarge Person). You can even add Shock Trooper later, for more charge awesomeness!
All the while, you can add the mounted feats with Ordained champion (maybe even fluffing it as becoming a knight to be an ordained champion?) and start considering the mounted charge route.
One suggestion is to ask your DM if the two Feats related to Heroic Destiny (Fearless Destiny and, especially Protect Destiny) can be added to the list of Bonus Feats given by Heir of Siberys 1. Else you'd have to chose favored in the house, since all the others are Action Points related



Now regarding what you said in an earlier message, Mastery of the Battleground has limited spells it can be applied to, the best way to use it I guess is on spells I use rapid spontaneous casting on during combat (through ordained champion 4th level feature). But except from spiritual weapon nothing from the war domain seem to apply. Does divine power qualify ? Or other interesting spells to use with the feat that i'm missing ?

Thanks in advance !

Well, my earlier suggestion was more coming from the fact that you were speaking about Eberronian feats; it can work quite well with cloud of knives and, arguably, blade barrier, but yes, you can manage without.

Speaking of wich, I'm quite curious about Zarus and how he can work in Eberron, I had some thoughts about it, feel free to read or ignore them


I'm curious on how the church of Zarus could fit in the political landscape of Khorvaire, where it could work, and what friends and enemies will have!

Zarus and other churches

Well, first of all, and I think that it could be an interesting tie in for your character becoming a bone knight, I'd say that Zarus agend and that of the Blood of Vol can overlap quite well: they follow a generalized idea of self-betterment not dissimilar from the "humans strive to be better" part of Zarus followers' faith. The legend of Zarus is not particullary "deity heavy" and I believe it can be seen as an interesting idea for a "Seeker" (the name of the followers of the Blood of Vol)

Now to the Silver Flame. Part of it can work together, part of it no. Surely the church of the Silver Flame is good aligned and believes that the Silver Flame can spark in anyone, no matter their race. That wouldn't work well with Zarus Humanity first stance. But we all know that the Silver Flame in the past went out of its way to fight "monstrous" enemies and perils (and the Lycantropic purge is a bitter page on its history). I can see a group of Flamist and followers of Zarus working together to stop the Lycan infection by any means, and I can even imagine a group of followers of Zarus preaching that the purest form of the flame can be found only in human heroes, since Tira Miron, the heroic Paladin that became the voice of the Silver Flame and trapped Bel Shalor, was human.

As for the Sovereign Host, I'd say that it's sort of an universal church that is conceived to work with all the species, therefore it would be difficult to tie it with Zarus. Maybe Dol Dorn and Onatar could be nearer to good-aligned Zarus followers.
There's the fact that some historians believe that the Sovereign Host myths are coming from Sarlona, the placebirth of Humanity, therefore they could be seen as a devolved version of Zarus creed, or they could be even identified with the 'gods' who tricked Zarus into drinking the poison! One beautiful thing in Eberron is that you never know for sure if the gods exist or not, therefore any myth can be real or not!

On to the Dark Six. While the idea of evil and evil can look appealing, I honestly see few things that can be interesting for a follower of Zarus. Maybe the Keeper, who is somewhat tied to the blood of Vol, can have some connection, especially considering he is often seen as the good of necromancers, and maybe the Mockery can be an inspiration for a particulary vicious warrior.
I believe that followers of the Traveler can be both bitter enemies and unexpected allies (as usual is with the Traveler) for the followers of Zarus, since they have an agend of change, cunning, evolution, invention and transformation, all things that are very human-like! But the Traveler has many followers from the changelings, a race of creatures that I imagine the followers of Zarus wouldn't love at all. I can see some changelins passing as humans, or even try to live as followers of Zarus and becoming convinced that the Human form is the best they can keep. What a 'true' human would think of it remains to be seen.

Zarus and the Dragonmarked houses

Ok, while it could be easy to say: "human dragonmarked houses get along with Zarus followers, the others do not" Eberron politics are always a bit more complicated: as long as you pay, the houses don't care too much about what you think. I don't think a gnome from the house of Scribing would be interested in your petty beliefs, as long as he knows you are using his parchments to read Zarus scriptures, and you are using his house Sending Stone to communicate with your brothers in faith. As is the same, if you need to sleep in a Ghallanda safehouse, pay, and you can look bad at the halflings there as long as you don't create problems.
The two houses of the dragonmark of Shadow have many more important things to do than to look at the religious ideas of fickle humans.
Conversely, I can see the human/half-orc house Tharashk, which is rapidly raising in it's status by selling monstrous mercenaries, having little love for a church that preaches 'human purity', while maybe many members of house Deneith would secretly love it!
One house that is sure to hate, and probably go out of its way to eliminate Zarus worship, is house Lyrandar. Many of them really believe that the Khoravar (Half-Elf) are the chosen race of Khorvaire, and would have little love for a church that prays actively against their supposed superiority, and in their native continent, too!

Zarus and the Five Nations
I believe that followers of Zarus could work well in all the nations, especially in Breland, since they are the nation that has had most problems with the monstrous races, with Dhakhaan and Drooam residing around some territories they would gladly claim.
Maybe even some Cyran groups could be interested in it, since a church that promotes union under some similarity often appeals those that are living at the margin of society, but Cyran ideals have always been of union through all the nations, no matter their race.

[Diliale]

Well, my earlier suggestion was more coming from the fact that you were speaking about Eberronian feats; it can work quite well with cloud of knives and, arguably, blade barrier, but yes, you can manage without.

Speaking of wich, I'm quite curious about Zarus and how he can work in Eberron, I had some thoughts about it, feel free to read or ignore them


I'm curious on how the church of Zarus could fit in the political landscape of Khorvaire, where it could work, and what friends and enemies will have!

Zarus and other churches

Well, first of all, and I think that it could be an interesting tie in for your character becoming a bone knight, I'd say that Zarus agend and that of the Blood of Vol can overlap quite well: they follow a generalized idea of self-betterment not dissimilar from the "humans strive to be better" part of Zarus followers' faith. The legend of Zarus is not particullary "deity heavy" and I believe it can be seen as an interesting idea for a "Seeker" (the name of the followers of the Blood of Vol)

Now to the Silver Flame. Part of it can work together, part of it no. Surely the church of the Silver Flame is good aligned and believes that the Silver Flame can spark in anyone, no matter their race. That wouldn't work well with Zarus Humanity first stance. But we all know that the Silver Flame in the past went out of its way to fight "monstrous" enemies and perils (and the Lycantropic purge is a bitter page on its history). I can see a group of Flamist and followers of Zarus working together to stop the Lycan infection by any means, and I can even imagine a group of followers of Zarus preaching that the purest form of the flame can be found only in human heroes, since Tira Miron, the heroic Paladin that became the voice of the Silver Flame and trapped Bel Shalor, was human.

As for the Sovereign Host, I'd say that it's sort of an universal church that is conceived to work with all the species, therefore it would be difficult to tie it with Zarus. Maybe Dol Dorn and Onatar could be nearer to good-aligned Zarus followers.
There's the fact that some historians believe that the Sovereign Host myths are coming from Sarlona, the placebirth of Humanity, therefore they could be seen as a devolved version of Zarus creed, or they could be even identified with the 'gods' who tricked Zarus into drinking the poison! One beautiful thing in Eberron is that you never know for sure if the gods exist or not, therefore any myth can be real or not!

On to the Dark Six. While the idea of evil and evil can look appealing, I honestly see few things that can be interesting for a follower of Zarus. Maybe the Keeper, who is somewhat tied to the blood of Vol, can have some connection, especially considering he is often seen as the good of necromancers, and maybe the Mockery can be an inspiration for a particulary vicious warrior.
I believe that followers of the Traveler can be both bitter enemies and unexpected allies (as usual is with the Traveler) for the followers of Zarus, since they have an agend of change, cunning, evolution, invention and transformation, all things that are very human-like! But the Traveler has many followers from the changelings, a race of creatures that I imagine the followers of Zarus wouldn't love at all. I can see some changelins passing as humans, or even try to live as followers of Zarus and becoming convinced that the Human form is the best they can keep. What a 'true' human would think of it remains to be seen.

Zarus and the Dragonmarked houses

Ok, while it could be easy to say: "human dragonmarked houses get along with Zarus followers, the others do not" Eberron politics are always a bit more complicated: as long as you pay, the houses don't care too much about what you think. I don't think a gnome from the house of Scribing would be interested in your petty beliefs, as long as he knows you are using his parchments to read Zarus scriptures, and you are using his house Sending Stone to communicate with your brothers in faith. As is the same, if you need to sleep in a Ghallanda safehouse, pay, and you can look bad at the halflings there as long as you don't create problems.
The two houses of the dragonmark of Shadow have many more important things to do than to look at the religious ideas of fickle humans.
Conversely, I can see the human/half-orc house Tharashk, which is rapidly raising in it's status by selling monstrous mercenaries, having little love for a church that preaches 'human purity', while maybe many members of house Deneith would secretly love it!
One house that is sure to hate, and probably go out of its way to eliminate Zarus worship, is house Lyrandar. Many of them really believe that the Khoravar (Half-Elf) are the chosen race of Khorvaire, and would have little love for a church that prays actively against their supposed superiority, and in their native continent, too!

Zarus and the Five Nations
I believe that followers of Zarus could work well in all the nations, especially in Breland, since they are the nation that has had most problems with the monstrous races, with Dhakhaan and Drooam residing around some territories they would gladly claim.
Maybe even some Cyran groups could be interested in it, since a church that promotes union under some similarity often appeals those that are living at the margin of society, but Cyran ideals have always been of union through all the nations, no matter their race.


Well to begin with the feat :
I liked it first because as you said it's from Eberron, I didn't know about Shavarath before that and therefore even if I don't take it it was nice to get acquainted to some more lore from the setting !

Churches :

Now to the good part about Zarus in Eberron! (I'm sending your message to my dm as it might give him some ideas) I missed the link between Zarus and the Blood of Vol back when I created my cleric as I didn't have the prestige class in mind at the time. I thus went to the second most direct idea to me, and second on your list, the Silver Flame, thinking as you pointed out that some parts of the church went a bit overboard when seeing that all their saviors were humans and blending in with a cult of Zarus in the form that the flame will only truely shine in humans.

But now that Bone Knight is on its way and linked to our campaign involving the mark of death... Well I think I will have some interesting talks with my dm for possible changes or new ways of evolving my character :D

Concerning the other thoughts you had, well I didn't ponder for long on the sovereign host. It seemed indeed way to universal. Although I did not know about the Sarlona part... They could make for an interesting ennemy, or at least give interesting ways of interacting with member of their church if we get to encounter some one day.

On the Dark Six, well, evil is evil as good is good, but the fact that Zarus is LE doesn't mean that he'll blend with them indeed as their is not much of "human purity" in them I found.

About Dragonmarked houses :

It's a pleasure to read that paragraph as it gives me so much material to help rp my character in a better way ^^' Both Tharashk and Deneith I had not seen in that way at all !

Concerning Sivis and Ghallanda we have not met many of them. But oh boy, let me tell you that having to work with dwarves from the Kundarak house is a fun thing to do when you are a cleric of Zarus haha. I'm trying to not be the worst for my dm, but it's hard sometime to not bully some of them :')

You mentionning House Lyrandar which might give some ideas for my dm but since we are going to leave in 1 or 2 sessions for a boat trip from Sharn to Aerenal... Well, let's say that Zarus will have a hard time watching me go around so many elves without burning their cities.

Five Nations :

As I said, Sacred Flame, so, well, I did the obvious and place my origin in Thrane actually. Kind of basic but I find it okey ^^

Thank you very much in any case ! Really, it's nice to read from someone well versed into the lore ^^