Why didn’t Durkula vampirize Zz’dtri?

[NobleCuriosity]

I was just rereading Blood Runs in the Family, and when I got to strip 908 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html), I found myself wondering why Durkula didn’t vampirize Zz’dtri. As a fighter/rogue/sorcerer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), Nale isn’t likely to have a way to immediately get Z back in the fight, and vampire-Z would have been a tremendous asset to Hel’s plans. Durkon/Durkula never saw that Z could cast Teleport (which would have single-handedly solved Durkula’s issue of making it to the Godsmoot in time), but even so, V was missing at the time, so you’d think Durkula would want to procure another arcane caster. Z was definitely within Durkula’s HD limit, since he had no other spawns.

Why do you think he went for the neck-snap instead? Is there some mechanical issue I don’t know about? Obviously storywise Durkula couldn’t go for it because then he wouldn’t need the OoTS and we’d miss the plot of book 6, but what do you think was the in-character reason for doing so?

[The Pilgrim]

He had already decided to infiltrate the Order and use them to procure transportation. Making Roy accept one Vampire was already risky enough. Accepting two, the other being a recurrent nemesis of the Order? Little chance of success.

Of course, if Durkula had known Z can cast Teleport... but alas, he didn't realize that.

[JeenLeen]

I could see it as a "I need the Order of the Stick to believe I'm Durkon, and Durkon wouldn't make thralls"--but you're right that the only reason he needs them is for transportation.

Do we know that Durkon knows Z had Teleport? I know it was talked about in some comics, but I don't recall (or have the time to check) if Durkon would necessarily know it (e.g., was told it or saw it on-screen.) Also, we know that Durkon was fighting 'Greg' more in the beginning, so it might have gotten a flood of memories about Nale, Z, and others (in order to know how to respond to their offer), but not gotten the details of what spells Z had. (Yes, Durkon would eventually have to give it up, and we see later how quickly those fights last--but it's still possible some intel did not get transferred, either because Durkon withheld those key elements or 'Greg' didn't think to ask in particular and instead got general info.)

[137beth]

Also, I don't remember if we know whether Z is a northerner for the purpose of determining which death God creates his vampire (are the crow homelands part of the northern continent?). If not, then Vampire Z could be created by a different God less sympathetic to Hel's plans, which would mean Happy would have to be really careful to to let him get unthralled.

[hroþila]

Either he needed to infiltrate the Order and he didn't know Z could teleport, or he knew but even back then he already wanted to fight Roy so he preferred to infiltrate the Order rather than teleport straight to the Godsmoot. Or maybe it just didn't occur to him because Z was his first kill and he was overeager.

Also, I don't remember if we know whether Z is a northerner for the purpose of determining which death God creates his vampire (are the crow homelands part of the northern continent?). If not, then Vampire Z could be created by a different God less sympathetic to Hel's plans, which would mean Happy would have to be really careful to to let him get unthralled.
If Durkon could keep him as his thrall, this wouldn't matter.

[Steveio]

Because then there wouldn't be a story, and we would've immediately known the vampire wasn't actually Durkon. Letting something appear organic when it's really a cruel unnatural charade is kind of his whole thing. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

In-universe? Maybe he didn't remember Zz'dtri could teleport in time. Or he thought over the contingency plans so much that he overlooked the "simple" solution. Maybe he wanted to have some fun before the world explodes because he's the antithesis of his incredibly "boring" host.

[InvisibleBison]

A vampire can only control a number of spawn equal to twice his hit dice, and Durkon was 15th level at that time, so clearly Zz'dtri was actually at least 31 creatures.

[denthor]

Z was a drow. Who knows if lloth would still claim her. Do not need competition for anything.

[ebarde]

Vampire Durkon deep down wasn't as pragmatic as he wanted to believe he was, so maybe he genuinely wanted to mess with the Order. He might have been genuinely hurt over Durkon's passive role in the party up till them, for more that they are separate entities the pain their hosts faced in life do affect vampires deeply, at least before they mature into their own person after a bit. It's also important to note that up till then Vampire Durkon was an obedient thrall, he really didn't have a lot of life experience to draw from and probably couldn't make the most tactical decision ever in the short time he had to decide.

[BaronOfHell]

When this question previously came up I thought the consensus was that Hel simply hadn't told Durkon about/created her plan yet.

[Emanick]

When this question previously came up I thought the consensus was that Hel simply hadn't told Durkon about/created her plan yet.

Yeah, this. When Durkon* was created (note that he was actually created the moment Malack used his staff, even though he was in thrall to Malack for the next hour or so), the Gate hadn’t even been destroyed yet, so at that point there was no Godsmoot to teleport to. Thus, Hel couldn’t have told him that it was urgent to acquire a means of teleportation. Instead she probably gave him instructions along the lines of “infiltrate the Order and wait for further instructions,” since they’re the ones on the Gate quest.

At sunset, he would have been able to contact Hel and receive more specific instructions regarding the Godsmoot, which had probably been called by that point. Once he knew that all he needed out of the Order was rapid transportation, he was probably rueing his decision to kill rather than vamp Z, but of course the damage was already done by that point.

One could, of course, assume that Hel *did* tell Durkon* of the need to procure rapid transportation during the moment he was being created, but that requires her to foresee how events would play out at the point when nobody had even found Girard’s Gate, and it requires us to ask why Durkon* made the stupid mistake of killing Z despite having access to the knowledge that Z could almost certainly teleport. I think that there is no need to make this assumption, because it complicates things unnecessarily and is of questionable plausibility.

[Yendor]

Or, Zz'dtri would have needed to refresh his spell slots, something for which there certainly wasn't time, especially with Tarquin's army on the way. And Durkon already knew the Mechane would be on the way.

[Morty]

Durkula didn't know where the Godsmoot actually was and a thrall made of Zz'dtri wouldn't have known either. So he couldn't have teleported there, because the spell requires a clear idea of the destination. Durkula was lucky to find out where it took place and drag Roy there as it was.

[Yendor]

Durkula didn't know where the Godsmoot actually was and a thrall made of Zz'dtri wouldn't have known either. So he couldn't have teleported there, because the spell requires a clear idea of the destination. Durkula was lucky to find out where it took place and drag Roy there as it was.
Yes, he did. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) But Durkon couldn't have known, which is why he had to arrange for Roy to find it out.

[Chronos]

I think it's a lot simpler than folks are making out. A vampire's personality is based on the personality of its host: That's why Malak was looking for "the right person" to make into his "child". And Durkon, and therefore also Not-Durkon, just plain doesn't like Zz'drti very much. He didn't want Zz'dtri as a "child"; he just wanted to be rid of him.

[Kurald Galain]

Z could cast Teleport (which would have single-handedly solved Durkula’s issue of making it to the Godsmoot in time)
Bear in mind that Teleport has a range limit, and requires the caster to be well-familiar with the destination.

And even Durkon wasn't familiar with the Godsmoot location, or else he could have used V's teleport orb. Of course, the whole location was built last-minute, so pretty much nobody would have been familiar with it.

[Riftwolf]

From a mechanical standpoint, even with Malacks staff, vampirisation takes several rounds (eyeballing it at 5-7, including swift-vamp and Prot. Vs Daylight castings), and the Order were in the middle of combat at the time. Add to this that Durkon* thought Z was a **** and you can see why he made
*Puts on glasses*
A snap decision.

[NobleCuriosity]

Yeah, this. When Durkon* was created (note that he was actually created the moment Malack used his staff, even though he was in thrall to Malack for the next hour or so), the Gate hadn’t even been destroyed yet, so at that point there was no Godsmoot to teleport to. Thus, Hel couldn’t have told him that it was urgent to acquire a means of teleportation. Instead she probably gave him instructions along the lines of “infiltrate the Order and wait for further instructions,” since they’re the ones on the Gate quest.

At sunset, he would have been able to contact Hel and receive more specific instructions regarding the Godsmoot, which had probably been called by that point. Once he knew that all he needed out of the Order was rapid transportation, he was probably rueing his decision to kill rather than vamp Z, but of course the damage was already done by that point.

One could, of course, assume that Hel *did* tell Durkon* of the need to procure rapid transportation during the moment he was being created, but that requires her to foresee how events would play out at the point when nobody had even found Girard’s Gate, and it requires us to ask why Durkon* made the stupid mistake of killing Z despite having access to the knowledge that Z could almost certainly teleport. I think that there is no need to make this assumption, because it complicates things unnecessarily and is of questionable plausibility.


This explanation makes good sense to me, thanks.

Not sure I buy the teleport-requires-intimate-knowledge thing being a problem; Durkula had the exact address, and Hel presumably could have described it with plenty of detail (or shown an illusory photo), and just earlier in the book Z teleported to a random patch of sand outside the pyramid that he had never set foot on before (since they flew in). Still, the first explanation works pretty well.

[Kurald Galain]

Hel presumably could have described it with plenty of detail (or shown an illusory photo),

Even if you presume Hel can do that (although illusory photos are arcane magic, not divine), that would give the Teleport spell a 24% chance of failure (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm). It's literally written in the Teleport spell :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Add to this that Durkon* thought Z was a **** and you can see why he made
*Puts on glasses*
A snap decision.
Precisely (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html). Sometimes, you just gotta say "what the snap (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)!"

(One of my favorite strips in the whole series)

[Riftwolf]

Z was a drow. Who knows if lloth would still claim her. Do not need competition for anything.

Z was female?

[ebarde]

Z was a dude

[KorvinStarmast]

Z was a dude Given that drow are a kind of elf, and that Z is a drow, it is also possible that Z's gender is (a) undetermined and (b) irrelevant to the story. (Unless Rich has somewhere in commentaries clarified that Z is male or female - I don't remember reading any of that, but I also don't find the commentaries to be very useful to read more than once ... they are fine to identify broad themes and to alert us to bonus material, though)
That said, with Z being an obvious parody of a particular male drow written in some FR novels, I'll drop five dollars in Vegas on "male" next time they open a line on that. :smallcool:

[The Pilgrim]

Given that drow are a kind of elf, and that Z is a drow, it is also possible that Z's gender is (a) undetermined and (b) irrelevant to the story. (Unless Rich has somewhere in commentaries clarified that Z is male or female - I don't remember reading any of that, but I also don't find the commentaries to be very useful to read more than once ... they are fine to identify broad themes and to alert us to bonus material, though)

Male, according to:

Nale (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)
Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)
Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

Male, according to:

Nale (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)
Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)
Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) Consistent.

[dps]

I figure he just did it to screw with Nale.

[Riftwolf]

Given that drow are a kind of elf, and that Z is a drow, it is also possible that Z's gender is (a) undetermined and (b) irrelevant to the story. (Unless Rich has somewhere in commentaries clarified that Z is male or female - I don't remember reading any of that, but I also don't find the commentaries to be very useful to read more than once ... they are fine to identify broad themes and to alert us to bonus material, though)
That said, with Z being an obvious parody of a particular male drow written in some FR novels, I'll drop five dollars in Vegas on "male" next time they open a line on that. :smallcool:

I don't think *all* elves, including dark elves, are genderfluid in Oots though. However I have trouble talking about gender politics without accidentally offending, so instead I'll drop the subject and say thanks for acknowledging my 'snap decision' joke.

[ebarde]

It was also a joke that Pompeii had a defined gender cause he was the polar opposite of V, so I guess to that extent the same applies to Z

[Dr.Zero]

Didn't Tarquin at some point told about his sexual adventures with a female dark elf?

Maybe it's just that some elves, and between them V, are genderfluid.

(That other elf, Velina I think, I remember I clearly categorized her as a female, but can't remember if that was because of something in comic, or just because her name sounded female)

(BTW, just checked: the name was Veldrina)

[ebarde]

If it follows Forgotten Realms rules, Drows have extremely strict gender roles while surface elves are pretty fluid gender wise

[Charity322]

I thought that Durkon answered the question as to why he didn't vampirise Zz'dtri.

"Dinnae want ya to get a free vampire wizard outta this, aye?"

[Ionathus]

Vampire Durkon deep down wasn't as pragmatic as he wanted to believe he was, so maybe he genuinely wanted to mess with the Order. He might have been genuinely hurt over Durkon's passive role in the party up till them, for more that they are separate entities the pain their hosts faced in life do affect vampires deeply, at least before they mature into their own person after a bit. It's also important to note that up till then Vampire Durkon was an obedient thrall, he really didn't have a lot of life experience to draw from and probably couldn't make the most tactical decision ever in the short time he had to decide.

I agree, this has always been my interpretation. HPoH's fixation on killing Roy at the Godsmoot, rather than misting out of reach -- his insistence on setting up a battle in Firmament rather than evading & delaying the Order -- the way he tried to set clever traps rather than just brute force attack the party with vampire cleric magic? HPoH had an ego problem, and a chip on his shoulder. He wanted to crush Roy out of resentment, anger, jealousy, whatever it is...and that was his undoing.

For someone as moustache-twirlingly evil as HPoH, the dramatic irony of being ferried to the Godsmoot by the heroes, just so he could destroy them and everything they loved, was too delicious to pass up, and it blinded him to the more practical options like Z.


Yeah, this. When Durkon* was created (note that he was actually created the moment Malack used his staff, even though he was in thrall to Malack for the next hour or so), the Gate hadn’t even been destroyed yet, so at that point there was no Godsmoot to teleport to. Thus, Hel couldn’t have told him that it was urgent to acquire a means of teleportation. Instead she probably gave him instructions along the lines of “infiltrate the Order and wait for further instructions,” since they’re the ones on the Gate quest.

At sunset, he would have been able to contact Hel and receive more specific instructions regarding the Godsmoot, which had probably been called by that point. Once he knew that all he needed out of the Order was rapid transportation, he was probably rueing his decision to kill rather than vamp Z, but of course the damage was already done by that point.

We see him contact her that sunset (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), and the way he reports back to Hel for the first time indicates that he already knew the full plan.


One could, of course, assume that Hel *did* tell Durkon* of the need to procure rapid transportation during the moment he was being created, but that requires her to foresee how events would play out at the point when nobody had even found Girard’s Gate, and it requires us to ask why Durkon* made the stupid mistake of killing Z despite having access to the knowledge that Z could almost certainly teleport. I think that there is no need to make this assumption, because it complicates things unnecessarily and is of questionable plausibility.

Hell, *I* could "foresee how events would play out". There are really only two major outcomes: either the Gate is destroyed, or it isn't. Doesn't take a Divine Intelligence to realize "hey, the last few gates have broken as soon as the conflict reached their physical location, there's probably a good chance it'll blow here too. Maybe I should give my High Priest a complete overview of the plan." It's not like the scheme is all that hard to understand.


Even if you presume Hel can do that (although illusory photos are arcane magic, not divine), that would give the Teleport spell a 24% chance of failure (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm). It's literally written in the Teleport spell :smallamused:

So what if they have a 24% chance of failure? If we assume Z is roughly the same level as The Order, he's got (at minimum) six level-5 spell slots. If he's got one left for today, he can just cast immediately. If they get a Mishap, just take a rest and try six more times tomorrow. Still faster than taking the Mechane, and zero risk of The Order interfering...because they've probably died in the hole without Durkon's help.

[ebarde]

Durkon* definetly was briefed of the plan during his creation, the first thing he does when talking to Hel is tell her how smoothly the plan is going.

[Dr.Zero]

A fridge logic thing about the Godsmoot that just came in my mind.
They use their clerics, giving them a decent amount of time to reach the location.

But if the defenses built by Serini were less efficient (actually, they've proven to delay the bad guys way more than a single dungeon like Girard's could have done), Xykon could manage to seize, and even destroy -by accident, I mean- the Gate well before the time set for the Godsmoot, screwing all the deities' plans.

[ebarde]

I wonder how easy it would be to win the Godsmoot by making it so priests of the deities that oppose yours can't make it in time

[hroþila]

Durkon* definetly was briefed of the plan during his creation, the first thing he does when talking to Hel is tell her how smoothly the plan is going.
It should also be pointed out that this poses no difficulty in practice. That the last gate could be destroyed and that a Godsmoot would be convened to decide what to do next could easily have been anticipated by Hel in light of the standing protocol and of what had happened at previous gates. And it's perfectly possible that the location of this Godsmoot was already decided at the previous one.

[Metastachydium]

I wonder how easy it would be to win the Godsmoot by making it so priests of the deities that oppose yours can't make it in time

Pretty sure there are stupid god rules against that, and should there be no such rule, it would probably devolve into some manner of battle royale pretty quickly with gods warning their high priests to kill other clerics on sight.

[ebarde]

I think killing would be a big no no, but it would be funny if they just did a comedic hijinx to trip each other up while appearing innocent

[MartianInvader]

Wouldn't it have been really difficult, practically speaking, to vamp Z at that point? He didn't know the insta-vamp spell yet, and we don't know how many copies of it were in the staff - he might not have wanted to waste one.

And wouldn't he have had to kill Z via a slow blood or level drain instead of the quick neck snap, giving Nale and Z a chance to respond?

[Quebbster]

Wouldn't it have been really difficult, practically speaking, to vamp Z at that point? He didn't know the insta-vamp spell yet, and we don't know how many copies of it were in the staff - he might not have wanted to waste one.

And wouldn't he have had to kill Z via a slow blood or level drain instead of the quick neck snap, giving Nale and Z a chance to respond?
There were enough charges to vamp the Creed of Stone at the godsmoot. There were probably quite a few charges in the staff in the desert too.
Durkon* would need to cast Protection from daylight immediately on the new vampire though. Drain blood, cast Insta-vamp spell, cast Protection from daylight... that takes up a lot of actions.

[Gurgeh]

We don't know that Greg used the staff for all of the cult vamping, though; quite a few of them could have been managed via prepared spells.

[ebarde]

He definetly used the staff, because doing it normally would have taken a very long time

[Metastachydium]

I think what Gurgeh means is that he prepared the spell from the staff a number of times and burned some spell slots alongside the staff charges, which is possible since he did just that at Firmament.

[Gurgeh]

Yes, exactly; in fact, it's reasonable to assume that the instavamp spell is either relatively low-level or able to produce more than one vampire per cast, since all of his Firmament spawn must have been made that way (the staff was left behind and destroyed at the Godsmoot). There are at least seventeen spawn present in the tunnel ambush, and the spell's the only way any of them could exist at all.

[Quebbster]

Yes, exactly; in fact, it's reasonable to assume that the instavamp spell is either relatively low-level or able to produce more than one vampire per cast, since all of his Firmament spawn must have been made that way (the staff was left behind and destroyed at the Godsmoot). There are at least seventeen spawn present in the tunnel ambush, and the spell's the only way any of them could exist at all.
Not all of them were insta-vamped by Durkon*, though. Ponchula mentioned having cast the spell multiple times too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html) There were four vampire clerics who came to Firmament, 17 insta-vamps means four per cleric with one doing five.

[RatElemental]

Greg still could have killed Z in a way that would result in a vampire and just left the body there, vamping it later or letting it rise naturally.

But then he'd have to somehow deal with Nale standing right there the whole time he did that.

[Jay R]

Lots of good in-game reasons have been given. I don't feel the need to add to that list.

But I suspect the real reason is that Rich had no particular funny, plot-driven role for him, and no funny, plot-driven way to dispose of him when Durkon died and Zz'dtri would have become independent.

[Quebbster]

Greg still could have killed Z in a way that would result in a vampire and just left the body there, vamping it later or letting it rise naturally.

But then he'd have to somehow deal with Nale standing right there the whole time he did that.

A new vampire out in the desert without any cover for miles would probably have a short existence. I assume Vamp'dtri wouldn't know Protection from Daylight, but I could be wrong there.

[Ionathus]

A new vampire out in the desert without any cover for miles would probably have a short existence. I assume Vamp'dtri wouldn't know Protection from Daylight, but I could be wrong there.

Now, this is an interesting scenario.

Because Vamp'dtri would either be created by the unnamed Elven god of (un)death, or by Nergal ("Combined Western and Elven Pantheons" and all that). Either way, Vamp'dtri isn't a cleric so neither god can immediately grant him spells. There's no information about time of day in the SRD, so I'm just going to assume Vamp'dtri rises at the same time of day (late afternoon), 3 days later.

If he gets his spells back immediately, he can teleport. No problem. But if he didn't have teleport ready, what would the conversation with that god look like?

"Look, I'm really sorry about this. But your body is out in the middle of the desert under the bright afternoon sun. The Rules say I have to create a Negative Energy Soul for every elf killed by a vampire, so I did, but you have 0% chance of surviving. Good luck!"

[skim172]

Dark elf blood is very high in fat. HPoH was likely watching his figure.

In fact, dark elf "blood" is more like a rich dark honey than what we think of as blood. It helps to keep them warm and insulated in the subterranean caves in which they evolved.

We tend to think of dark elves as broody, melancholy, taciturn, prone to long bouts of inner reflection. But really, their biology just doesn't allow them to sustain motion for long periods. You try being chipper and twitchy when your veins are just swollen with thick honey.

Vampires only really break out the dark elf blood during the holiday season, when their diets go right out the window.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dark elf blood is very high in fat. {snip}
Vampires only really break out the dark elf blood during the holiday season, when their diets go right out the window. Best post in the thread. :smallcool: Thanks for the chuckle.

[Darth V]

I wonder how easy it would be to win the Godsmoot by making it so priests of the deities that oppose yours can't make it in time


Pretty sure there are stupid god rules against that, and should there be no such rule, it would probably devolve into some manner of battle royale pretty quickly with gods warning their high priests to kill other clerics on sight.

That's what the bodyguards are for and why the task of guarding the body is finished the very moment the clerics reach the godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html).

[Alias]

A new vampire out in the desert without any cover for miles would probably have a short existence. I assume Vamp'dtri wouldn't know Protection from Daylight, but I could be wrong there.

Drow can cast Darkness pretty much at will. And he likely had at least 1 teleport in reserve.

[Gurgeh]

I don't think the Darkness spell ought to protect a vampire from burning up in the sun; the spell does not block light entirely, it creates its own "shadowy illumination", which can be overcome by stronger light sources (specifically, by RAW, any higher-level light spell). All of the mundane effects that it blocks are small and weak and have no game-mechanical effect in the way that sunlight does.

It's also worth noting that the higher-level Daylight spell explicitly does not count as actual sunlight when it comes to creatures that are damaged or destroyed by the real thing; it would seem parsimonious to expect that a lower-level spell would not get the kind of privileged interactions that Daylight is denied.

[Emanick]

I don't think the Darkness spell ought to protect a vampire from burning up in the sun; the spell does not block light entirely, it creates its own "shadowy illumination", which can be overcome by stronger light sources (specifically, by RAW, any higher-level light spell). All of the mundane effects that it blocks are small and weak and have no game-mechanical effect in the way that sunlight does.

It's also worth noting that the higher-level Daylight spell explicitly does not count as actual sunlight when it comes to creatures that are damaged or destroyed by the real thing; it would seem parsimonious to expect that a lower-level spell would not get the kind of privileged interactions that Daylight is denied.

I can’t find an official ruling via a quick Google search, but it would seem to me that a Darkness spell would indeed protect a vampire. Merely being in a shadow protects a vampire from being destroyed by sunlight, and the Darkness spell certainly provides that. I don’t see why magical shadows would be less effective at protecting a vampire than nonmagical ones.

[Riftwolf]

I don't think the Darkness spell ought to protect a vampire from burning up in the sun; the spell does not block light entirely, it creates its own "shadowy illumination", which can be overcome by stronger light sources (specifically, by RAW, any higher-level light spell). All of the mundane effects that it blocks are small and weak and have no game-mechanical effect in the way that sunlight does.

It's also worth noting that the higher-level Daylight spell explicitly does not count as actual sunlight when it comes to creatures that are damaged or destroyed by the real thing; it would seem parsimonious to expect that a lower-level spell would not get the kind of privileged interactions that Daylight is denied.

Daylight (spell) is denied the power of Daylight (original) for a good reason; so you can't instantly kill a 20th level boss vamp with a (3rd?) level spell no save. The way Darkness is depicted in-comic would probably block sunlight, as Young Adult Black Dragon made a sort of inky bubble.
Although,if I was a Drow Vampire in the middle of a desert, I'd probably just give up.

[Metastachydium]

(Just wondering: couldn't Vampire!Z have theoretically saved himself via using Greg's shield, Spiky or both as a makeshift parasol?)

[SlashDash]

When he joins the party, he tells Roy that even though he is evil, the world is still at stake so he wants to help the party.

How the heck would Roy be convinced that Z would want the same?
If he keeps Z as a thrall, it would have ended up as dead cannon fodder just like Spikey.

Either way, Z wasn't going anywhere.


Also, Nale escaped that encounter. He knows Nale has Dimension Door (remember the battle earlier at the castle rooftops) so it was likely for Nale to escape. Nale could become a problem if he'll later come after Z to resurrect him.

He was better off just dumping Z as dead weight.

[Ionathus]

When he joins the party, he tells Roy that even though he is evil, the world is still at stake so he wants to help the party.

How the heck would Roy be convinced that Z would want the same?
If he keeps Z as a thrall, it would have ended up as dead cannon fodder just like Spikey.

Either way, Z wasn't going anywhere.


Also, Nale escaped that encounter. He knows Nale has Dimension Door (remember the battle earlier at the castle rooftops) so it was likely for Nale to escape. Nale could become a problem if he'll later come after Z to resurrect him.

He was better off just dumping Z as dead weight.

I think the argument was that, by vampirizing Z and using his Teleport instead of The Mechane, Durkula could've bypassed involving The Order entirely.

[SlashDash]

I think the argument was that, by vampirizing Z and using his Teleport instead of The Mechane, Durkula could've bypassed involving The Order entirely.

But Z likely didn't have much left (he could have used it to escape the Pyramid unharmed) and instead was taken out by the vampire too easily.
He would have to wait another day at the very least until he could do that, and those 24 hours could be critical.

Sure, he almost died regardless if Elan hadn't summoned Julio. But honestly, I would have thought Nale is a greater threat than Tarquin at that point.
I mean why would Tarquin care about him when Nale would absolutely go after him if he took Z with him (more out of spite than care for Z, but still)

[Riftwolf]

I think the argument was that, by vampirizing Z and using his Teleport instead of The Mechane, Durkula could've bypassed involving The Order entirely.

I still say time was a factor. In the 10 or so rounds it'd take to drain Z, raise Z and protect Z, the Order could have conceivably defeated the elemental and the fiends, then Durkon* would've had to explain why he was sat on the sidelines sippin on Z instead of helping in the fight.

[Ionathus]

I still say time was a factor. In the 10 or so rounds it'd take to drain Z, raise Z and protect Z, the Order could have conceivably defeated the elemental and the fiends, then Durkon* would've had to explain why he was sat on the sidelines sippin on Z instead of helping in the fight.

I'm still not certain The Order survives the elemental without Durkon*'s help. He healed Roy and sent Spiky against it as well - that very well could've been enough to tip the scales.

[Metastachydium]

I'm still not certain The Order survives the elemental without Durkon*'s help. He healed Roy and sent Spiky against it as well - that very well could've been enough to tip the scales.

Especially since were it not for Greg, the elemental would have likely smothered Haley to death and it would have been up to Belkar (half dead himself), Elan and an unarmed Roy to fight both it and Spiky off.

[ebarde]

Even with Durkon they only really managed to barely make a retreat, and that was due to pretty much everything working in their advantage. If Xykon decided to stick around for a few rounds, which he probably would without the Monster's interferance, if Tarquin didn't became so unstable and if pretty much anything from Elan's secret rescue plan didn't worked out as intended the order would have lost even with Durkon.

[GravityEmblem]

I mean, the answer is more or less in the strip: Durkula killed him as a spiteful response to Nale's threat.