Near TPK on Icewind Dale (spoilers ahead...)

[samcifer]

So, I died...

It was swift,

It was sudden,

and I wasn't alone in embracing a frozen death.

So we were playing Icewind Dale and were at lv. 3 on our characters. We had a Variant Human war Cleric in heavy armor, A Tiefling Evocation wizard, A Bugbear (bear) totem Barbarian, my kobold Inquisitive Rogue, a Dawrf (the sub-race that has Dwarven Fortitude) Gloomstalker Ranger, and an Elf Paladin (can'r recall which sub0class he was running).

We got 1 free feat at start-up and for stats we got to do them in an odd way. We got 2d6+6 on 8 rolls, drop the 2 lowest rolls. If we rolled poorly, we could try a full re-roll, then decide which set to take. Then we also got to at a free +1 to any single stat we wanted after and then apply our racial stat boosts so long as we didn't go over 20.

For hp... We had to roll for every level up. At lv. 3, I was at a mere 13HP for my max. (I don't know what anyone else had for their max hp levels).

I was REALLY wanting to level up as I had taken Crossbow Expert so I could dual-wield hand crossbows, but had only a 20ft. range without penalties, but we were stuck oin a bad spot on the map and had to backtrack to a previous town to cash in some quests, but we got into another quest to rescue the husband of a tavern-owner (I think, I can't remember correctly) and had to follow the husband's dog out to find him when he had gone to capture a baby yeti. We fought off some wild felines (the type was never mentioned), then found the man and headed for his abandoned camp.

Nearby was the cave of the yeti and he kind of railiroaded us (the npc, not the dm) into entering the cave. We decided to not help him get the baby yeti, but got the other of the 3 npcs (the husband's teammate) and left without trying to fight the mother yeti or capture the baby yeti. We left the cave and the dm asked us which number on a d4 we did not want. We agreed on 3 and he rolled...

a 3.

An Abomidible Yeti appeared (the father yeti) and we had no where to run to to escape (Like I wanted to do), so we were forced to fight. On the AB's second turn, we were all within 30 ft. when he did an AoE cold attack that required a CON save for half-damage.

I succeeded, as did a few others, and the dm rolled the damage...

56.

Remember how my max HP was only 13?

Yeah, I died instantly. The Wizard also took enough damage to insta-kill him.

The Barb and Cleric failed their death saves, but the Ranger and Paladin saved and were the only survivors.

We were all still at lv. 3, mind you, so most of the party will have to make new characters for next session in probably 2 weeks or so.

I ask who'd bright idea it was to make a mechanic that powerful for an encounter where the characters would, at best, be lv. 5? How is that survivable?

(There is an answer in the module on how to avoid this battle, which only had an 8% chance of triggering, but we didn't think of doing that tactic... Hint, it involved a way-easier battle just before this one).

So now I'm thinking of making a half-Orc Eldritch Knight fighter with CON as my highest stat as my kobold rogue was making death saves whenever he got hit in battle as npc foes do high damage in this module (from my experience, at least).

[Unoriginal]

I ask who'd bright idea it was to make a mechanic that powerful for an encounter where the characters would, at best, be lv. 5? How is that survivable?

Icewind Dale doesn't wait for you to level up so you can meet the challenges on equal ground, that's for sure.

Not sure why your DM decided that there was nowhere to run to escape, though. Normally two rounds would be quite enough to be engaged in fleeing.

[RogueJK]

A CR9 monster against 3rd level characters? Yeah, that's a good way to set up a party wipe.

A lone CR5 monster would be a Deadly encounter for your party. That Abominable Yeti was almost twice that, and represented a Deadly encounter for even a party of Level 5 characters.

Not sure why the DM thought it was a good idea to force you into that combat, especially with no means of escape? Perhaps he meant it to be a CR4 Yeti, but got confused and used the much higher level stat block?

[Unoriginal]

A CR9 monster against 3rd level characters? Yeah, that's a good way to set up a party wipe.

A lone CR5 monster would be a Deadly encounter for your party. That Abominable Yeti was almost twice that, and represented a Deadly encounter for even a party of Level 5 characters.

Not sure why the DM thought it was a good idea to force you into that combat, especially with no means of escape? Perhaps he meant it to be a CR4 Yeti, but got confused and used the much higher level stat block?

Might be that, yeah.

OP, was that the encounter after you find the yéti kid kicking an halfling around?

[MaxWilson]

An Abomidible Yeti appeared (the father yeti) and we had no where to run to to escape (Like I wanted to do), so we were forced to fight. On the AB's second turn, we were all within 30 ft. when he did an AoE cold attack that required a CON save for half-damage.

I succeeded, as did a few others, and the dm rolled the damage...

56.

Remember how my max HP was only 13?

Yeah, I died instantly. The Wizard also took enough damage to insta-kill him.

I mean, not to sound unsympathetic, but that's what you get for prioritizing damage over survival. As a Rogue you could have killed that Yeti to death with a shortbow from 80' instead of using a hand crossbow from 20'--your DPR would be lower, but on the other hand... you wouldn't be dead. Learn from this experience.

With the right tactics you could kill that Yeti to death all by yourself, unless the DM's "cannot escape" literally means "you're locked in a room with the Yeti until one of you is dead" as opposed to "no, I won't handwave this Yeti away, we're going to play this out." What would happen if you pick a spot 70' away from the Yeti and say "I move here and shoot the Yeti with my shortbow"?

[Unoriginal]

With the right tactics you could kill that Yeti to death all by yourself, unless the DM's "cannot escape" literally means "you're locked in a room with the Yeti until one of you is dead" as opposed to "no, I won't handwave this Yeti away, we're going to play this out."

Honestly, given that the Abominable Yeti doesn't really have a way to stop people from leaving a given room even if they're in the way of the opening, it sounds like the DM was engaging in some kind of shenanigans when they declared "can't escape".

Not disagreeing with the tactic thing, though, especially if the Yeti was not moving due to blocking the path to the outside.

[Dark.Revenant]

First, the cave is too small to get decent range within, and an adult yeti blocking the entrance really would have made it impossible to leave without a fight. The party being within a 30-foot cone isn't really a tactical mistake here; it's an inevitable consequence of combat on that map.

Second, the DM chose to upgrade the monster from a Yeti (CR 4, large) to an Abominable Yeti (CR 9, huge). I'm not sure what the "8% chance" refers to, but the module definitely doesn't say an Abominable Yeti faces the party.

Third, an Abominable Yeti definitely wouldn't have fit through the cave. It's iffy that it could fit even when squeezing.

In conclusion, your DM, not the module, killed you.

[Unoriginal]

First, the cave is too small to get decent range within, and an adult yeti blocking the entrance really would have made it impossible to leave without a fight.

Without the beginning of a fight, sure, but I'm pretty sure all of them could have squeezed past Yeti to the outside, and then could have fled.



In conclusion, your DM, not the module, killed you.

Sounds like that, yeah.

[samcifer]

Might be that, yeah.

OP, was that the encounter after you find the yéti kid kicking an halfling around?

Yes, that one.

As for why we couldn't flee, the dm has a book of rpg maps of 1in. squares in a book that was from a kickstarter. He uses it quite often and the only ice-location map has water full of chunks of ice along one side and a long diagonal path as the only route we could take (which the AY was on, meaning we would have had to run past him to escape.

As for crossbow expert, I tend to get poor die rolls, so I need to be rolling as much as possible to hit (this is with many different dice, btw), and even if I'd had max hp, I still would've died as I was only lv. 3, so the whole 'that's what I get for focusing on damage' is a less than valid argument under the circumstances.

To his credit, the dm was rather horrified that he killed 4 of us with one attack.

[MaxWilson]

First, the cave is too small to get decent range within, and an adult yeti blocking the entrance really would have made it impossible to leave without a fight.

Abominable Yetis are Huge. Kobold rogues are Small. The Yeti can't block kobold movement with its body, it would need to be a locked door or something. Otherwise the Yeti is merely difficult terrain to any creature that isn't Large, Huge, or Gargantuan.



As for crossbow expert, I tend to get poor die rolls, so I need to be rolling as much as possible to hit (this is with many different dice, btw), and even if I'd had max hp, I still would've died as I was only lv. 3, so the whole 'that's what I get for focusing on damage' is a less than valid argument under the circumstances.

Less than valid how? What stopped you from Disengaging + Dashing past the yeti and out of the cave, thus taking zero damage instead of 28 HP? Zero damage makes your HP total irrelevant.

Of course the Yeti could choose to pursue you and freeze you instead of the party, so you might have gotten killed anyway, but if so it would have happened saving the party by distracting the Yeti, which is rather heroic. And if it doesn't pursue, you can avenge the party by killing it once you open the range enough.

[RogueJK]

Second, the DM chose to upgrade the monster from a Yeti (CR 4, large) to an Abominable Yeti (CR 9, huge).
...
In conclusion, your DM, not the module, killed you.

Well, there ya go. Classic confused DM/Yeti conflation resulting in TPK. Like when you order a cheese pizza, but the delivery guy actually brings a supreme Mimic.



To his credit, the dm was rather horrified that he killed 4 of us with one attack.

Well, even if he overlooked the obvious CR9 in the stat block, the fact that it had the ability to able to drop a high DC CON save cone attack with an average damage of 45 should have been a clue that this wasn't appropriate for 3rd level characters whose HP have barely crested double digits. :smallwink: That's more damage than a Fireball, after all.

He could have easily just been like "The Yeti sucks in a deep breath, and exhales a... (Wait, what? That's can't be right.) Um, uh... He exhales a loud roar as he swipes at you for *fudge fudge* 8 damage."

[Unoriginal]

Yes, that one.

In the book, the Yeti father is a regular Yeti.



As for why we couldn't flee, the dm has a book of rpg maps of 1in. squares in a book that was from a kickstarter. He uses it quite often and the only ice-location map has water full of chunks of ice along one side and a long diagonal path as the only route we could take


So... he didn't use the map from the book?


(which the AY was on, meaning we would have had to run past him to escape.

That means one person would have taken an AoO, and the rest could have run that way. Your Rogue could have used Disengage then bonus action Dash to run past the AB without being at risk, too.




To his credit, the dm was rather horrified that he killed 4 of us with one attack.

Not horrified enough to not do it, still.

[MaxWilson]

Well, there ya go. Classic confused DM/Yeti conflation resulting in TPK. Like when you order a cheese pizza, but the delivery guy actually brings a supreme Mimic.

Heh. That's totally plausible actually.

[Unoriginal]

Well, even if he overlooked the obvious CR9 in the stat block, the fact that it had the ability to able to drop a high DC CON save cone attack with an average damage of 45 should have been a clue that this wasn't appropriate for 3rd level characters whose HP have barely crested double digits. :smallwink: That's more damage than a Fireball, after all.

He could have easily just been like "The Yeti sucks in a deep breath, and exhales a... (Wait, what? That's can't be right.) Um, uh... He exhales a loud roar as he swipes at you for d6+2 damage."

Or just went "oh, my bad, I was reading that wrong, let's turn back the clock".

Then again I never heard of a DM who went "I have one map with ice from this kickstarter, so we're going to use it as the battlefield rather than the ones in the book" before.

[Dork_Forge]

Less than valid how? What stopped you from Disengaging + Dashing past the yeti and out of the cave, thus taking zero damage instead of 28 HP? Zero damage makes your HP total irrelevant.

Of course the Yeti could choose to pursue you and freeze you instead of the party, so you might have gotten killed anyway, but if so it would have happened saving the party by distracting the Yeti, which is rather heroic. And if it doesn't pursue, you can avenge the party by killing it once you open the range enough.

I'll preface this by saying that this encounter should never have happened, especially on that map, however running away is not a viable plan either.

They're in front of the Yeti and have to move past to escape, 60ft of movement with a Dash action just isn't going to be enough to get out of dodge when the Yeti has a speed of 40ft and two ranged options out to 30ft. Up to half of the dashed movement would have been burned just getting to the other side of the Yeti and anyone that couldn't disengage was very likely to get hit by an opportunity attack if they're the first ones (and at an average of 14 damage, seriously injure or down the character depending on who it was). The only win scenario there is if the Yeti just swipes once at the first person running past and then not only doesn't move but doesn't breathe.


Separately for OP you character was doomed to die at some point, that is insanely low hp for a level 3 Rogue, did you have +1 Con and then roll two 1s? With such a generous rolling method (and knowing you'd be rolling hp) you should have been rocking at least +2 or even higher.

[samcifer]

[QUOTE=MaxWilson;24803075]Less than valid how? /QUOTE]

Because I didn't have a way to get higher max HP. I was rolling dice and my CON score was among my 5 low stats (I only had 1 good stat in DEX) so I had horribly low HP under the conditions that were set for pcs in that run of that campaign.

For my next character, I have no choice but to run a half-orc as either a Bear Totem Barbarian or at least run a fighter and take Toughness as my free feat, then focus on CON until I reach Lv. 6 when I get a chance to do anything other than maxing out CON for survivability based on my experiences in the module so far, and that's assuming that I can get at least a 16 for my highest stat so I can start with a con score of 18. accuracy on attacking will have to wait, it seems, unless I want to keep rolling new characters every few levels, seeing as how much damage the enemies we've gone up against so far over the 5 or so sessions since we began playing at lv. 1.

[Dork_Forge]

Because I didn't have a way to get higher max HP. I was rolling dice and my CON score was among my 5 low stats (I only had 1 good stat in DEX) so I had horribly low HP under the conditions that were set for pcs in that run of that campaign.

For my next character, I have no choice but to run a half-orc as either a Bear Totem Barbarian or at least run a fighter and take Toughness as my free feat, then focus on CON until I reach Lv. 6 when I get a chance to do anything other than maxing out CON for survivability based on my experiences in the module so far, and that's assuming that I can get at least a 16 for my highest stat so I can start with a con score of 18. accuracy on attacking will have to wait, it seems, unless I want to keep rolling new characters every few levels, seeing as how much damage the enemies we've gone up against so far over the 5 or so sessions since we began playing at lv. 1.

What stats did you actually get?

Unless I'm reading incorrectly the floor for your stats was an 8, with rerolls and a floating +1 to raise things as well. So what array did you end up with and how did you assign them?


*Note: you could have taken Tough from the beginning, it isn't fun when it just brings you up to a survivable level, but it certainly was an option to give you higher hp on that character.

[Unoriginal]

For my next character, I have no choice but to run a half-orc as either a Bear Totem Barbarian or at least run a fighter and take Toughness as my free feat, then focus on CON until I reach Lv. 6 when I get a chance to do anything other than maxing out CON for survivability based on my experiences in the module so far, and that's assuming that I can get at least a 16 for my highest stat so I can start with a con score of 18. accuracy on attacking will have to wait, it seems, unless I want to keep rolling new characters every few levels, seeing as how much damage the enemies we've gone up against so far over the 5 or so sessions since we began playing at lv. 1.

Fire Genasi are great for CON builds, IMO. Plus you get a CON-based attack option.

[MaxWilson]

Less than valid how? What stopped you from Disengaging + Dashing past the yeti and out of the cave, thus taking zero damage instead of 28 HP? Zero damage makes your HP total irrelevant.

(A) Of course the Yeti could choose to pursue you and freeze you instead of the party, so you might have gotten killed anyway, but if so it would have happened saving the party by distracting the Yeti, which is rather heroic. And if it doesn't pursue, you can avenge the party by killing it once you open the range enough.


I'll preface this by saying that this encounter should never have happened, especially on that map, however running away is not a viable plan either.

They're in front of the Yeti and have to move past to escape, 60ft of movement with a Dash action just isn't going to be enough to get out of dodge when (B) the Yeti has a speed of 40ft and two ranged options out to 30ft. Up to half of the dashed movement would have been burned just getting to the other side of the Yeti and anyone that couldn't disengage was very likely to get hit by an opportunity attack if they're the first ones (and at an average of 14 damage, seriously injure or down the character depending on who it was). The only win scenario there is if the Yeti just swipes once at the first person running past and then not only doesn't move but doesn't breathe.

(B) That's what I said, see (A). They're obviously starting out within 30' of the Yeti or it wouldn't be able to breathe on them from the cave entrance, so clearly it's possible to get to the other side of the Yeti, at which point it can either target the party with its breath weapon as before (but at least the Kobold is safe and can avenge them), or it targets the kobold (saving the rest of the party). That's a win-win compared to TPKing for nothing. (The OP did say "but the Ranger and Paladin saved and were the only survivors" but I would expect the Abominable Yeti to finish them off immediately afterwards if they don't switch strategies and run away, which is now harder to do than it would have been on round 1 since you can't scatter in four directions with only two PCs. Therefore I regard it as a TPK situation even if TPK didn't occur due to DM shell shock/mercy.)

<rant>Too many people think "don't split the party" means "stay within 30' of each other at all times," but the truth is you should stay within mutual support range while trying to avoid all being vulnerable to the same attacks (AoE or otherwise). The better your ranged capabilities, the looser the formation you can afford to adopt. And with good range, stealth, and mobility, splitting the party becomes not only possible but occasionally advantageous.</rant>

=========================================


Because I didn't have a way to get higher max HP. I was rolling dice and my CON score was among my 5 low stats (I only had 1 good stat in DEX) so I had horribly low HP under the conditions that were set for pcs in that run of that campaign.

I didn't suggest a plan that relies on HP, just on mobility. Here's a pretty good video explaining the concept of so-called "ultimate defense", in the sense that it doesn't matter what your HP/AC/saves are: The 7 Tactical Aspects of Combat that every D&D 5e Player needs to know! #7: Defense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrUwtFs4F1c) (Being out of range, behind total cover, or--to a certain extent--hidden, although hidden doesn't work if they guess where you are, especially against AoEs.)

[samcifer]

To be clear, I only had an effective range of 20ft without disadvantage. Also, My high stats were 18 and 16. (the 16 went to Wisdom as I was gearing towards playing an inquisitor rogue. I needed more attack rolls because my rolls in this campaign have been abysmal, with 2 botches in a row over 2 different battles without a rest and the dm determined that my crossbow string broke, rendering the weapon unusable. The second battle had me make a botch, which broke my remaining weapon, then before I could escape the single foe we were facing dropped me with a single hit (my ac was 17, the best I could get with non-magical gear and only lt. armor proficiency).

I was prioritizing more attack rolls to compensate for my horrible luck with dice to have at least a chance to hit, but in this module, survivability needs to be any pc's main focus, it would seem, but that might only7 be because of how the dm is running it (he's the problem DM I've mentioned in other threads), but since it was the first time we were playing a non homebrew campaign, I was hoping it would be less difficult.

[MaxWilson]

I was prioritizing more attack rolls to compensate for my horrible luck with dice to have at least a chance to hit, but in this module, survivability needs to be any pc's main focus, it would seem, but that might only7 be because of how the dm is running it (he's the problem DM I've mentioned in other threads), but since it was the first time we were playing a non homebrew campaign, I was hoping it would be less difficult.

I like RogueJK's theory that this was a case of the DM getting confused about the difference between Yeti (big and scary CR 3) and Abominable Yeti (huge and terrifying CR 9), and that he was as shocked as anybody when the Yeti destroyed y'all despite a successful save. That would also explain how the Paladin and Ranger managed not to die--did the Yeti just give up and go away, or did the Paladin get lucky on a Wrathful Smite or something?

[samcifer]

I like RogueJK's theory that this was a case of the DM getting confused about the difference between Yeti (big and scary CR 3) and Abominable Yeti (huge and terrifying CR 9), and that he was as shocked as anybody when the Yeti destroyed y'all despite a successful save. That would also explain how the Paladin and Ranger managed not to die--did the Yeti just give up and go away, or did the Paladin get lucky on a Wrathful Smite or something?

TBH, I emotionally checked out after my pc died. I barely remember what happened to the rest of the party and don't know how the battle ended because of that. I wandered back over when I heard other pcs making death saves.

[MaxWilson]

TBH, I emotionally checked out after my pc died. I barely remember what happened to the rest of the party and don't know how the battle ended because of that. I wandered back over when I heard other pcs making death saves.

Too bad, my condolences.

I'll point out that this was ALSO a case of bad luck on the dice. An Abominable Yeti's Cold Breath does 10d8 (45 on average), and if it had done 45 damage, halved to 22 for a successful save, you would not have died, just started making death saves. I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse but I hope better: you got unlucky.

[Dork_Forge]

(B) That's what I said, see (A). They're obviously starting out within 30' of the Yeti or it wouldn't be able to breathe on them from the cave entrance, so clearly it's possible to get to the other side of the Yeti, at which point it can either target the party with its breath weapon as before (but at least the Kobold is safe and can avenge them), or it targets the kobold (saving the rest of the party). That's a win-win compared to TPKing for nothing. (The OP did say "but the Ranger and Paladin saved and were the only survivors" but I would expect the Abominable Yeti to finish them off immediately afterwards if they don't switch strategies and run away, which is now harder to do than it would have been on round 1 since you can't scatter in four directions with only two PCs. Therefore I regard it as a TPK situation even if TPK didn't occur due to DM shell shock/mercy.)

<rant>Too many people think "don't split the party" means "stay within 30' of each other at all times," but the truth is you should stay within mutual support range while trying to avoid all being vulnerable to the same attacks (AoE or otherwise). The better your ranged capabilities, the looser the formation you can afford to adopt. And with good range, stealth, and mobility, splitting the party becomes not only possible but occasionally advantageous.</rant>


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but your assumption is that either the Rogue runs and everyone else remains in front of the Yeti? How does the Rogue running and getting killed save the rest of the party when they still have to get past the Yeti and escape?



To be clear, I only had an effective range of 20ft without disadvantage. Also, My high stats were 18 and 16. (the 16 went to Wisdom as I was gearing towards playing an inquisitor rogue. I needed more attack rolls because my rolls in this campaign have been abysmal, with 2 botches in a row over 2 different battles without a rest and the dm determined that my crossbow string broke, rendering the weapon unusable. The second battle had me make a botch, which broke my remaining weapon, then before I could escape the single foe we were facing dropped me with a single hit (my ac was 17, the best I could get with non-magical gear and only lt. armor proficiency).

I was prioritizing more attack rolls to compensate for my horrible luck with dice to have at least a chance to hit, but in this module, survivability needs to be any pc's main focus, it would seem, but that might only7 be because of how the dm is running it (he's the problem DM I've mentioned in other threads), but since it was the first time we were playing a non homebrew campaign, I was hoping it would be less difficult.

You didn't need a 16 in Wisdom, Inquisitive primarily keys off of skills so you could just put your expertise in Insight and leave Wis at a +1, still giving you a +5 to your check at level 3. Even then Insightful Fighting is only an additional condition for Sneak Attack and you can spam it until you do succeed the contest.

So did you have a +1 Con and then roll two 1s?

You keep saying you only had an effective range of 20 feet, why? A hand crossbow has a standard range of 30ft.


Overall tbh I think this is entirely on the DM, the stats and free feat are generous, but rolling for hp and botch tables that leave you weaponless are just a disaster waiting to happen, especially when they either make mistakes like giving you an AY at level 3, or worse if they thought it was a good idea to do that.

I'd like to suggest a Goliath over a Half Orc btw, they don't only fit thematically but their cold resistance/coldweather resistance will help a lot as will Stone's Endurance (useable every short rest, where as Relentless Endurance is once a day).

[SiCK_Boy]

Not to defend the DM too much, but he may have looked at the Abominable Yeti as an option to compensate for the fact that the party had 6 players.

Still a bad choice in my view; considering the CR of the monster compared to the player’s level, he should have at least offered them a way out (maybe a side passage for small creatures that medium ones could squeeze through). Whenever you send a monster with CR equal or higher than player level, you drastically increase the odds of having dead characters (in this case, the AoE attack turned it into a TPK).

The way most WotC modules are written, they rarely provide suggestions to DMs on how to adapt for larger parties (and it’s often not clear if the default assumption is 4 or 5 players; I always presume 4 and tweak difficulty using it as my baseline).

One other thing I want to comment on is OP’s insistence on tweaking his build to account for his tendency to have bad rolls. This is pure superstition (unless he’s using badly balanced dice, in which case the solution is to use a dice rolling app). There is no such thing as a cursed player who always roll too low, and he should stop making decisions that ignore average dice rolls results.

Going for a high CON character next time may help, but I think an open discussion / debriefing with the DM about how that encounter went downhill may be better for everyone involved going forward; otherwise, similar issues will keep cropping up.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but your assumption is that either the Rogue runs and everyone else remains in front of the Yeti? How does the Rogue running and getting killed save the rest of the party when they still have to get past the Yeti and escape?

Buys time for them to do something else, like (1) also run away, in different directions, or (2) let the wizard hit it with a Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead of being dead and doing nothing.

[Unoriginal]

The way most WotC modules are written, they rarely provide suggestions to DMs on how to adapt for larger parties (and it’s often not clear if the default assumption is 4 or 5 players; I always presume 4 and tweak difficulty using it as my baseline).

To be fair, Icewind Dale (at least for this part of the adventure) is more an open world situation, so it's an instance of the encounters not being dependent on the PCs' levels or number on purpose.


Buys time for them to do something else, like (1) also run away, in different directions, or (2) let the wizard hit it with a Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead of being dead and doing nothing.

This. The less PCs are in the breath's AoE the less it's a worthwhile option, too.

[SiCK_Boy]

To be fair, Icewind Dale (at least for this part of the adventure) is more an open world situation, so it's an instance of the encounters not being dependent on the PCs' levels or number on purpose.

Agreed, although I'm not sure the module itself does much to assist the DM in foreshadowing how dangerous things can get out there. It suffers from typical WotC design where initial encounters (like that first quest going after a CR 3 undead murderer - even if I know players are not supposed to meet it right away as they explore Ten Towns) / early chapters are really dangerous for low level characters.

In this specific case, it was further compounded by the DM choosing a way too difficult monster for his players to face at this junction. Now we don't know how much clues the players got about this Abominable Yeti beforehand (did they spot the huge tracks on their way in, did they have some NPCs telling them it's too dangerous and urging them to not enter the cave, etc.), but it certainly sounds more like the players were trapped by the DM in this specific scenario.

Even in a scenario where the world is not dependent on PCs' levels, you still need to give a fair chance to the players to make meaningful choices. If all that happens to them is that rocks fall and they die as soon as they leave town (or abominable yetis trap them in no escape caves), it may well be the way this world works (imagine a nightly meteor rain or something instead of eternal gloom like what we have in RotF), but it doesn't make for a fun gaming experience. Throwing the players out in an unforgiving world with no way to fight back can appeal to some hardcore players, but I doubt that's the case for OP's group.

[samcifer]

I looked at the Goliath race, but the damage only being reduced by random number between 1 and 12 vs. say, 56 damage isn't reliable enough imo, so I'm opting for a Dex and Con focused Half-Orc Eldritch Knight fighter (mostly because I need low-light vision and the relentless endurance that is more reliable than the goliath option even though it's only once per long rest as it can help me survive being dropped to death saves, not just give me a chance to *possibly* avoid making death saves).

I'll have chromatic orb and Firebolt for some fire-themed ranged attacks, but will be relying mostly on my longbow and the sharpshooter feat for most of my attacking from a long range without handicapping my accuracy and will rarely (if ever) try the -5 to hit for +10 damage function of the feat. I'm also taking Absorb Elements to help against big hits of cold damage due to the resistance it offers. Fighting Style will be archery for added accuracy. If my stats (haven't rolled them yet) are good enough, I'll take toughness as my lv. 4 asi/feat. If not, I'll put more into Dex, Con or Int. I now it's a sub-optimal build, but I want survivability, long-range attacking and fire damage. I'd love to play a sorc again thanks to the ability to change the element of n elemental damage spell (want a fire-themed Shatter? You got it!), but their low HP makes playing one in this campaign (at least how this dm is running it) a losing option, imo.

[Unoriginal]

I now it's a sub-optimal build

What makes you think it's sub-optimal?

[samcifer]

What makes you think it's sub-optimal?

Low accuracy and damage on both bow shots and spellcasting, imo, but again, I haven't rolled stats yet. I'm pessimistic by nature and tend to assume the worst...

Die-rolling tends to support this attitude. :P

[Eldariel]

Mmmh, yeah, that was pretty bad luck. Of all the possible things though, Abominable Yeti isn't at least all that brutal on level 3, but of course rolling for HP is a royal pain and can easily mess you up in a situation like this: with averaged HP even a standard 14 Con Wizard would still have 20 HP at least thus easily surviving the breath provided they'd prepared Absorb Elements (pretty given in this adventure path) and successful save (not at all given but possible), let alone classes with more HP (Rogue with 16 Con could be looking at 27 and Inspiring Leader would be +6 for everyone; soon even the Wizard is surviving even on a failed save).

It has crap-all for mental saves so something like Phantasmal Force can quite possibly just take it out of the fight or at least make it waste its big ticket stuff for a good while while you escape or kill it. Even a Web can tie it down, though that doesn't avert the Death By Breath: basically anything but Str or Con-targeting spells work really (obviously there are no sufficiently powerful Cha-targeting spells on this level though; Bane doesn't cut it since it doesn't affect the breath nor the gaze).

[MaxWilson]

I looked at the Goliath race, but the damage only being reduced by random number between 1 and 12 vs. say, 56 damage isn't reliable enough imo, so I'm opting for a Dex and Con focused Half-Orc Eldritch Knight fighter (mostly because I need low-light vision and the relentless endurance that is more reliable than the goliath option even though it's only once per long rest as it can help me survive being dropped to death saves, not just give me a chance to *possibly* avoid making death saves).

I'll have chromatic orb and Firebolt for some fire-themed ranged attacks, but will be relying mostly on my longbow and the sharpshooter feat for most of my attacking from a long range without handicapping my accuracy and will rarely (if ever) try the -5 to hit for +10 damage function of the feat. I'm also taking Absorb Elements to help against big hits of cold damage due to the resistance it offers. Fighting Style will be archery for added accuracy. If my stats (haven't rolled them yet) are good enough, I'll take toughness as my lv. 4 asi/feat. If not, I'll put more into Dex, Con or Int. I now it's a sub-optimal build, but I want survivability, long-range attacking and fire damage. I'd love to play a sorc again thanks to the ability to change the element of n elemental damage spell (want a fire-themed Shatter? You got it!), but their low HP makes playing one in this campaign (at least how this dm is running it) a losing option, imo.

Sounds like a solid choice for a deadly campaign!

[samcifer]

Sounds like a solid choice for a deadly campaign!

I'm also going to wait and see if the dm will allow the optional stat change rule so that I can focus on my core stats as a half-orc, but should I focus more on Dex or Con for the +2?

[MaxWilson]

I'm also going to wait and see if the dm will allow the optional stat change rule so that I can focus on my core stats as a half-orc, but should I focus more on Dex or Con for the +2?

+2 Con isn't very relevant to survival honestly, it's only +20 HP by level 20 (less than one solid attack), might as well improve Dex for stealth and initiative and damage and AC.

If the DM doesn't go for the Tasha's rules, you might consider a Lucky human so you can negate crits and/or reroll critical saving throw failures and still get +1 to both Dex and Con.